Give me legitimate reasons why the Wii is killing gaming.

As long as there are hardcore gamers, there will be hardcore games. The haters need to calm down. That is all that needs to be said about the topic.SmashBrosLegend

There will always be games for the hardcore, but they are going to run scarce if more non-gamers enter the market. The people who are buying all these Wii's aren't getting them for deep, meaningful games. They are looking for simple games that best leverage the input decive. That's it. As a result, more developers are going to create low budget, shallow games to cater to these people, because it's all that's required to turn a profit. As focus is taken from the hardcore crowd, games are going to get worse.

What gamers should be more worried about is the rise in costs to create games. That is the big killer. Developers can become bankrupt much more easily in these situations. And without developers, there'd be no games (saying it bluntly).
Pangster007

This is one of the most misunderstood concepts within gaming.  PS2 never explicitly catered to the casual crowd, nor did it penetrate the mainstream market to any respectable level (on par with other forms of visual media).  Any success it had outside the gaming enthusiast was NOT a product of Sony policy, or first-party franchises for that matter, but rather a by-product created by third party developers who met more mainstream forms of consumer demand.

Nintendo has deliberately enacted a marketing strat that seeks to expand the market to capture mainstream consumers.  They accomplish this, almost COMPLETELY, through first-party hardware and software.  This is a COMPLETELY different strategy and any effects it has on capturing the casual market are accomplished through COMPLETELY different means.

FoamingPanda

However, there is definately a difference, for sure. Which is why I cited the Nintendo DS. The
hardware is designed to be accessible and understandable, and software such as Nintendogs
and Brain Age are clearly not targeted at the hardcore. But it still gets games for the more
dedicated gamers. That much is undeniable. 

Its not killing gaming at all.

Its just offering a different TYPE of gaming experience. A more simple and accessible type, ideally suited to non gamers.

VinnoT

[QUOTE="SmashBrosLegend"]As long as there are hardcore gamers, there will be hardcore games. The haters need to calm down. That is all that needs to be said about the topic.Gamer556

There will always be games for the hardcore, but they are going to run scarce if more non-gamers enter the market. The people who are buying all these Wii's aren't getting them for deep, meaningful games. They are looking for simple games that best leverage the input decive. That's it. As a result, more developers are going to create low budget, shallow games to cater to these people, because it's all that's required to turn a profit. As focus is taken from the hardcore crowd, games are going to get worse.

[QUOTE="VinnoT"]

Its not killing gaming at all.

Its just offering a different TYPE of gaming experience. A more simple and accessible type, ideally suited to non gamers.

FoamingPanda

And by offering this product to a new market that FAR exceeds the population of the previous gaming market, developers and producers will -- in turn -- grow increasingly reluctant to support expensive, innovative, and complex products.

Remember, our demand as consumers, dictates what (and how much) developers produce.

I think you're misunderstanding the effect of an expanded market. There are more consumers to sell to with more market segments. That means there's room for more products to exist and sell well, and products will exist to cater to each segment of the market. Wii already has a few "hardcore" games (althought some aren't very good due to the rushed nature in which those game were developed) and more will arise. Nintendo doesn't want to alienate their previous market in favor of a new one... they want both segments, the new and the old. There's no reason why an expanded market can't cater to both traditional gamers and so-called non-gamers when there are more customers to go around.

[QUOTE="Gamer556"]

[QUOTE="SmashBrosLegend"]As long as there are hardcore gamers, there will be hardcore games. The haters need to calm down. That is all that needs to be said about the topic.Full_Metal1923

There will always be games for the hardcore, but they are going to run scarce if more non-gamers enter the market. The people who are buying all these Wii's aren't getting them for deep, meaningful games. They are looking for simple games that best leverage the input decive. That's it. As a result, more developers are going to create low budget, shallow games to cater to these people, because it's all that's required to turn a profit. As focus is taken from the hardcore crowd, games are going to get worse.

I didn't acknwoledge the other two consoles because I didn't feel it was needed. If Nintendo ends up winning the console war by any meaningful margin, Microsoft and Sony are bound to follow suit. They won't invest in R&D, they won't use new hardware, and they won't target the long established gaming community, because that's not where the money's at. We will most likely see three new consoles with an emphasis on simplicity and mindless fun.

And I believe my generalization on most Wii owners and non-gamers is pretty accurate. You and I both know that the majority of people purchasing Wii's are not getting them for RPGs, shooters, racers, or any other more traditional genres. They want the obscure, low budget party games that are advertised to them.

i wouldn't say its killing gameing but harming yes, by bring more non-games into this. becuse they expect lesssniperpenguins

Let me start by adimtting up front, I have no idea what is going to happen, only thoughts, and some fears.

My problem with the Wii is based on Fear, not a logical deduction, I admit that.

I am concerned, because as the Wii gains popularity, game devlopers are shifting rescources to the Wii.  This makes sense, it is an easier system to devlop for, and has a large market to sell your games to, thus increaeing profits.  When you add in the fact that you can probably port your Wii game to the PS2, that is 100 million more potential customers, and no need for high def graphics or super involved stories.  The problem is, those are exactly the kind of games I like to play.

I want games like Resistance, Lair, GeOW, GOW2, Kameo, MGS4, and Mass EEffect.  I enjoyed LOZ:TP, but soon after, I sold my Wii.  Why?  Because I was able to sell LOZ and the Wii for a profit, and if and when more of the games that I like to play come out, I will get another one, because that will be in the distant future.  (as an aside, I would like a crack at Paper Mario...)

I truly believe that Nintendo will bring the goods when it comes to games.  My fear is that the third party games will be crap and because they (third party developers) will go in with the attitude than it must be simple for the casuals.  This will be a double loss, because it will also prevent those same rescources from being spent on the devlopment of games that I like and want to play.

I am not convinced that this will happen.  Perhaps the low attach rate for Wii sales is a predictor of things to come.  Perhaps all these "casuals" bying Wii systems won't buy more games nd the disenchanted developers will go back to the hardcores.  Or perhaps, even better, the casuals will begin to become more sophisticated in thier tastes, and new and inovative games will continue to come out.  I just don't know.

I think of my DS as an example, though.  The 1st party games are excellent, but otherwise...

Of course, I could be wrong.  This is just my fear.

[QUOTE="tranhgiang"]

Imagine the gaming industry that have nothing but Wii games. 

Welcome to 10 years ago. 

Full_Metal1923

"Here developer.  Here's the most advanced machine we can produce at a fair cost to consumers.  We'll leave it up to you to help sell our product through creative and fun ideas.  Our job is simply making the most powerful console at the lowest cost possible. We'll take care of that part, you take care of the rest. "

 Yes, such a simple idea.

People saying that the Wii is harming gaming really need to get a firm grip on reality. There will always be hardcore epic games for the close minded that can't enjoy anything else. I mean seriously. Do yall really think gaming would survive if only party/mini games were made. The answer is HELL NO.  What is really hurting gaming is microtransactions, and we know which company is all for that.peaceful_anger

I love how much Nintendo has completely distorted, redefine, and caused the average Nintendo fan to completely change their very ideology where gaming is concerned just to continue support Nintendo products.

Economic scarcity is reality.  The fact publishers and developers only produce games to make the largest amount of money at the smallest cost possible is reality.

I don't want to see the end of childish and shallow games, but I don't want gaming to be limited to a simple childish hobby.  Nintendo wants to limit the functionality of games and marginalize the tradional gaming market.  It is simply the quickest and easiet means of generating profit.  I sure as hell believe gaming would survive.  The problem is not JUST minigames; most games these days have not intellectually evolved with the pace of technology.  We still endure games with insanely childish, cliche, or lame overtones.  Most games simply regurgitate 5-15 year old marketing icons or franchise themes. Developers meet our increasingly lower demands and expectations.

I want to see gaming develop to a point where if a developer has an idea -- that developer can produce and market their idea at a reasonable cost.  Hardware should simply facilitate developer ideas by processing games more efficently and at a lower cost, nothing more.

[QUOTE="peaceful_anger"]People saying that the Wii is harming gaming really need to get a firm grip on reality. There will always be hardcore epic games for the close minded that can't enjoy anything else. I mean seriously. Do yall really think gaming would survive if only party/mini games were made. The answer is HELL NO. What is really hurting gaming is microtransactions, and we know which company is all for that.FoamingPanda

I love how much Nintendo has completely distorted, redefine, and caused the average Nintendo fan to completely change their very ideology where gaming is concerned just to continue support Nintendo products.

Economic scarcity is reality. The fact publishers and developers only produce games to make the largest amount of money at the smallest cost possible is reality.

I don't want to see the end of childish and shallow games, but I don't want gaming to be limited to a simple childish hobby. Nintendo wants to limit the functionality of games and marginalize the tradional gaming market. It is simply the quickest and easiet means of generating profit. I sure as hell believe gaming would survive. The problem is not JUST minigames; most games these days have not intellectually evolved with the pace of technology. We still endure games with insanely childish, cliche, or lame overtones. Most games simply regurgitate 5-15 year old marketing icons or franchise themes. Developers meet our increasingly lower demands and expectations.

I want to see gaming develop to a point where if a developer has an idea -- that developer can produce and market their idea at a reasonable cost. Hardware should simply facilitate developer ideas by processing games more efficently and at a lower cost, nothing more.

You have your logic flipped. Economic scarcity works on the price scale, not the product quality scale. Economic scarcity is the principle that states that product prices fluctuate based on the supply in relation to the demand.

What you're proposing is more of a product creation limitation than a price factor, and it's idea is unfounded. The addition of a new market segment doesn't replace a pre-existing market segment. Instead, it opens the door for new types of products to be developed by new developers, or existing developers to expand their operations and produce/sell more products. This increase in developers and/or production capacity of existing developers will cause more products to be released that cater to both market segments. Neither will disappear or diminish as long as they are profitable at all.

it isn't a matter of being "more profitable" because once a market segment isn't fulfilled, new producers will see the profit potential and create products for that segment once the other segment reaches saturation.

[QUOTE="Full_Metal1923"][QUOTE="Gamer556"]

[QUOTE="SmashBrosLegend"]As long as there are hardcore gamers, there will be hardcore games. The haters need to calm down. That is all that needs to be said about the topic.Gamer556

There will always be games for the hardcore, but they are going to run scarce if more non-gamers enter the market. The people who are buying all these Wii's aren't getting them for deep, meaningful games. They are looking for simple games that best leverage the input decive. That's it. As a result, more developers are going to create low budget, shallow games to cater to these people, because it's all that's required to turn a profit. As focus is taken from the hardcore crowd, games are going to get worse.

I didn't acknwoledge the other two consoles because I didn't feel it was needed. If Nintendo ends up winning the console war by any meaningful margin, Microsoft and Sony are bound to follow suit. They won't invest in R&D, they won't use new hardware, and they won't target the long established gaming community, because that's not where the money's at. We will most likely see three new consoles with an emphasis on simplicity and mindless fun.

And I believe my generalization on most Wii owners and non-gamers is pretty accurate. You and I both know that the majority of people purchasing Wii's are not getting them for RPGs, shooters, racers, or any other more traditional genres. They want the obscure, low budget party games that are advertised to them.