Half Life 2 *does not* have an original, deep story.

for peopel saying games cant have good stories

play XENOGEARS

name a movie or book with a better plot

you cant

Any weapon can be picked up and used by anyone, no matter how lacking they are in training and/or upper-body strength.

If I was be attacked, I also could figure out how to use any weapon.

Xbox360gamer1

Wrong. Skimpy women wielding broad swords? Civilians knowing how to aim most efficiently? Get real.

And yeah, let's see you, severely untrained, taking on a squad of marines. You'll surely kill all of them :roll:

for peopel saying games cant have good stories

play XENOGEARS

name a movie or book with a better plot

you cant

tidus222

Well, considering a lot of Xenogears story is ripped off from Neon Genesis Evangelion, that isn't a very good example.

for peopel saying games cant have good stories

play XENOGEARS

name a movie or book with a better plot

you cant

tidus222

I commend Xenogears and Xenosaga etc

But the best stories are the ones which can appeal to both casual and devout alike.

For that I commend Star Wars, Indiana Jones, the Matrix (somewhat) and a few others I can't remember.

Silent Hill and Xenogears have great stories, but it would repel a lot of people.

-Rag tag rebel army struggles valiantly to overthrow an Evil Empire.

nearly every FPS has this... Halo ESPECIALLY

(What I think is the reason the Combine are on Earth) - Aliens travel a zillion miles to loot the earth of resources which exist in far greater and much more easily exploitable quantities on the many uninhabited bodies they pass on the way to earth.

Intergallactic imperialism. They loot every planet they reach, enslaving the given population to assist in their takeover. Kinda like ancient rome.

(Or) -Aliens with completely incomprehensible motivations make war on the human race/invade earth.

Imperialstic alien race. They invade many planets, and leech reasources ect............

We don't know anything of the Combine's motivations, yet, but looking at what Valve has done, it could be likely.

Their motivations are obvius Interallactic imperialism. Why did Napoleon conquer half of the world, why did Rome dominate the globe through ancient times, why does US like to get involved with many unwarranted affairs - because they want the power and control.

- A human discovers that the human race is being controlled by aliens.

No the human race was all dandy until the resonance cascade was caused. All they discovered was a whole load of pain. Earth is occupied by the combine, and half of their own population has turned on itself.

- The government bans music, painting, dancing, or some other art form; only the hero seems to care enough to do anything about it. (Extrapolating from the setting of City 17).

They want to rid humanity of what makes them human. Duh. And what can you do about it? Its made pretty bluntly to you at the start of the game of how well the resitance is going without gordon.... Its useless.

- Cities of future are depicted as though sanitation workers have been on strike from now until then.

Er yea everything is purposly delapitaded. Its not as if the combine is promoting human progression.

- The incredibly competent man-of-action with more skills/degrees than you can shake a blaster at. (GORDON I'M LOOKING AT YOU)

Actually you are a science nerd trained for dealing with hazerdous situations, and are actually relevant to the entire sitaution. Much better than 'random generic leathneck soldier' - ala every other fps

Gordon isnt a soldier, he learns to adapt to the situation. His job requires him to. He is the damage control - literraly and metaphorically

- Any character with a perpetual two-day growth of beard. (Wonder who could that be...)

Yea he had a beard when he went to black mesa and was put in stasis - frozen in time. You would think the beard would have remained.

- Beginning warriors who hit everything they shoot at. (GORDON AGAIN)

He has had gun training. Did you play the tutorial? He had 'tactical' training aswell. This can be said for every FPS.

-A smart, courageous, gorgeously attractive woman who is rarely if ever asked out. (Extrapolate and know that Alyx has a thing for Gordon. Where's her Bf?)

Most of humanity are enslaved. I dont think she is searching for a bf, while the combine continues to pillage the planet.

- The untrained, average Joe who can take on and defeat highly trained and well-equipped operatives.(100% GORDON)

HE IS TRAINED. Omg this is soo stupid you have said the same thing 3 times.

- In the future, everyone either supports their government fully, or is engaged in a terrorist campaign to overthrow it.

No not everyone supports the goverenment / combine. In HL1 the goverement turns against you, and in HL2 there is the combine which pits its syths and humanity itself against you - while the rest of humanity is leeched of what remains human. The vortigaunts are in debt for gordon after the events of Hl1, and many were stuck on the planet after the portal to zen was shut.

- Aliens who are vastly more intelligent and advanced than we are, but we beat them anyway by "ingenuity," plain guts, or exploiting an Achilles Heel.

Well considering the combine has been dominating the galaxy you would think so. What about The Covenant? OR any other enemy in a game.

- A Big Surprise awaits the reader/viewer at the end of the tale: The head of government is a disguised Bad Guy or is under direct control of the Bad Guys.

The G Man isnt aligned with the combine or humans.....

- So-called elite forces get their butts kicked by a smaller, less well-armed force.

No they get their ass kicked by Gordon. Most of the resistance flee or die. Hell its all plausible look at the French during german occupation

- Someone gets healed by contact with aliens (often by a laying on of hands).

Yes they are aliens and they heal using some spirtual stuff. So?

- Any weapon can be picked up and used by anyone, no matter how lacking they are in training and/or upper-body strength. (HEV suit is not strength augmenting)

Yes the HEV suit is strength augmenting. And Gordon can pickup norm objects. The resistance fighters use norm objects aswel. Im sure people are smart enough to learn how to use a gun.

I didn't move onto the "Silly Science" section because to my knowledge Half Life doesn't have that. I know Halo does though.

Fair enough.

Halo is just as generic as Half Life is... Hell the HL universe is more original the the Halo one - its possibly the most original game universe concocted.

FrozenLiquid

[QUOTE="skrat_01"]L

FrozenLiquid

skrat_01

Oh so theres no cutscenes, so basically everything is revealed through conversations.

And IMO and a lot of other ppls(including my cousin who is a halo addict) the MGS series has the best story in a game ever.

Second to the MGS story, I think FFX had an amazing story too.

[QUOTE="tidus222"]

for peopel saying games cant have good stories

play XENOGEARS

name a movie or book with a better plot

you cant

FrozenLiquid

I commend Xenogears and Xenosaga etc

But the best stories are the ones which can appeal to both casual and devout alike.

For that I commend Star Wars, Indiana Jones, the Matrix (somewhat) and a few others I can't remember.

Silent Hill and Xenogears have great stories, but it would repel a lot of people.

matrix has a good story

star wars = LOL that story is garbage

indiana jones = cant comment never really sat down and watched them all

So the topic of this thread is:

"Half Life 2 *does not* have an original, deep story."

Debunked? I'd say yes.

Oh so theres no cutscenes, so basically everything is revealed through conversations.

And IMO and a lot of other ppls(including my cousin who is a halo addict) the MGS series has the best story in a game ever.

Second to the MGS story, I think FFX had an amazing story too.

Uzumaki_Naruto5

Its the same with Half Life to HL2 to HL2:ep1.

Halo is weird. CE had a decent story and Halo 2 went and screwed things up. Sure its story had loads of potential but in the end it turned into a complete cluster **** imo.

Deus Ex also had an exellent story. Deus Ex 2 did aswell - but pity the game sucked. Probably the best story in an FPS game.

But yea MGS's is exellent. Not many games make such an impression through story. Deus Ex and MGS made a huge impact on me, as did HL.

The problem with Half Life's story is the fact that it's obvious Valve doesn't know where they're going with it (IMO). In Half Life 1 they used lots of mysterious characters like Gman and the different aliens to make the player feel like there was a larger more intricate plot behind everything, but in Half Life 2 they just continued doing so without giving any answering any of the questions these mysterious characters spawned. Maybe Episode 2 or 3 will set things right.

Oh and Minerva is definitely an awesome mod, it gave me lots of Halo and especially Marathon vibes. Talking about Marathon, can we just agree they have a much better plot than both Half Life and Halo :P?

The problem with Half Life's story is the fact that it's obvious Valve doesn't know where they're going with it (IMO). In Half Life 1 they used lots of mysterious characters like Gman and the different aliens to make the player feel like there was a larger more intricate plot behind everything, but in Half Life 2 they just continued doing so without giving any answering any of the questions these mysterious characters spawned. Maybe Episode 2 or 3 will set things right.

Oh and Minerva is definitely an awesome mod, it gave me lots of Halo and especially Marathon vibes. Talking about Marathon, can we just agree they have a much better plot than both Half Life and Halo :P?

inoperativeRS

Valve lets you explore the world pickup the clues and give your own interpreatition to the world and story, while continuing to shroud mystery over many things, making you want to progress and find out whats going on.

Hell every piece of art is open to interpreatation, and all the artist does is leave blatant or sublte hints to develop an opinion of the meaning of it. Valve dropped you in a world, gave you blatant and sublte hints to the meaning of the game, and let your develop and interpretation. Mnnn I like the parallels.

[QUOTE="Uzumaki_Naruto5"]

Oh so theres no cutscenes, so basically everything is revealed through conversations.

And IMO and a lot of other ppls(including my cousin who is a halo addict) the MGS series has the best story in a game ever.

Second to the MGS story, I think FFX had an amazing story too.

skrat_01

Its the same with Half Life to HL2 to HL2:ep1.

Halo is weird. CE had a decent story and Halo 2 went and screwed things up. Sure its story had loads of potential but in the end it turned into a complete cluster **** imo.

Deus Ex also had an exellent story. Deus Ex 2 did aswell - but pity the game sucked. Probably the best story in an FPS game.

But yea MGS's is exellent. Not many games make such an impression through story. Deus Ex and MGS made a huge impact on me, as did HL.

Never played the Deus Ex games:(

I can honestly say though that after playing the MGS games my standards for stories in videogames have increased greatly so thats why when some ppl refer to some stories as decent they are less than mediocre to me.

And im not trying to flame or anythign here but whats so great abou the Halo story. Please no flaming or anything at all. Ive played CE and did everything except the last 2 missions(borrowed game from cousin but he wanted it back). Up till that point the story was moving really slow and it was kinda boring. Unless the story did a crapload of stuff during the last 2 missions then I thought it was boring. I have never touched the Halo2 campaign since Ive heard its pure crap gameplay and storywise so I cant expect anything better plotwise there can I?

Halo is weird. CE had a decent story and Halo 2 went and screwed things up. Sure its story had loads of potential but in the end it turned into a complete cluster **** imo.

skrat_01

Eh, I thought Halo CE had a great story but Halo 2 improved upon it a LOT. The religious and political aspects made it into more than just the sci fi geeks wet dream CE was.

I think half life could be made into a good film, but only from certain perspectives. Obviously the film couldnt be based around the character of Gordan Freeman, but that doesnt mean that he cant feature in it. The best way to base the film would be around refugees entering city 17, and have the film focus more on the characters, life in City 17, and eventually the resistance movement.

Think something like a crossbetween Children of Men and the first few episodes of Battlestar Galactica season 3. It wouldnt be an action film per se, but it could still work.

Gordon would be in the film, but I think it would be better if you only saw glimpses of him earlier on, and then obviously he'd have more of a role later on. But no talking lol...

[QUOTE="inoperativeRS"]

The problem with Half Life's story is the fact that it's obvious Valve doesn't know where they're going with it (IMO). In Half Life 1 they used lots of mysterious characters like Gman and the different aliens to make the player feel like there was a larger more intricate plot behind everything, but in Half Life 2 they just continued doing so without giving any answering any of the questions these mysterious characters spawned. Maybe Episode 2 or 3 will set things right.

Oh and Minerva is definitely an awesome mod, it gave me lots of Halo and especially Marathon vibes. Talking about Marathon, can we just agree they have a much better plot than both Half Life and Halo :P?

skrat_01

Valve lets you explore the world pickup the clues and give your own interpreatition to the world and story, while continuing to shroud mystery over many things, making you want to progress and find out whats going on.

Hell every piece of art is open to interpreatation, and all the artist does is leave blatant or sublte hints to develop an opinion of the meaning of it. Valve dropped you in a world, gave you blatant and sublte hints to the meaning of the game, and let your develop and interpretation. Mnnn I like the parallels.

Haha, have you ever even considered that Halo could have lots of mysterious story parts as well? There's really an equal amount of wierd things going on in there as in the Half Life universe, it's just that you usually get more answers than new questions. To excuse holes in the plot by calling it artistic freedom is excusable I guess, but not something I find very intriguing.

If you want a game open to interpretation, play the Marathon trilogy. Seriously, it's both open to interpretation AND has no real holes in the plot.

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

-A smart, courageous, gorgeously attractive woman who is rarely if ever asked out. (Extrapolate and know that Alyx has a thing for Gordon. Where's her Bf?)

Most of humanity are enslaved. I dont think she is searching for a bf, while the combine continues to pillage the planet.skrat_01

Actually, the Combine have set up a...dampening field(?) that prevents humans from reproducing (don't you remember Kleiner's announcement telling the people of City 17 to start mating again?). Presumably that also deters them from entering relationships, possibly explaining why Alyx doesn't have a boyfreind.

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]- Someone gets healed by contact with aliens (often by a laying on of hands).

Yes they are aliens and they heal using some spirtual stuff. So?

skrat_01

I don't remember them healing anyone with their powers - although one does recharge Gordon's suit with his electricity-shooting hands.

Anyway, aside from that, I mostly agree with the TC - Half-Life's greatness was in its story-telling, not the story itself.

[QUOTE="skrat_01"] Halo is weird. CE had a decent story and Halo 2 went and screwed things up. Sure its story had loads of potential but in the end it turned into a complete cluster **** imo.

inoperativeRS

Agreed. The execution was just sh*t poor and that's what I think skrat is trying to say. I liked the concept of Halo 2's story. Didn't fall into some generic bullsh*t.

I think half life could be made into a good film, but only from certain perspectives. Obviously the film couldnt be based around the character of Gordan Freeman, but that doesnt mean that he cant feature in it. The best way to base the film would be around refugees entering city 17, and have the film focus more on the characters, life in City 17, and eventually the resistance movement. Think something like a crossbetween Children of Men and the first few episodes of Battlestar Galactica season 3. It wouldnt be an action film per se, but it could still work. Gordon would be in the film, but I think it would be better if you only saw glimpses of him earlier on, and then obviously he'd have more of a role later on. But no talking lol... Jenova_Flare

That would be very hard, but workable. The thing is, fans will be pissed off when Gordon is only on for a few minutes of screen time. What I think would work is perhaps from the perspective of Eli Vance (well, most of the time anyway), and thus make Gordon look like some saviour as people speak about him like a legend. It's what I hate, but that's what Half Life is about.

[QUOTE="inoperativeRS"][QUOTE="skrat_01"] Halo is weird. CE had a decent story and Halo 2 went and screwed things up. Sure its story had loads of potential but in the end it turned into a complete cluster **** imo.

FrozenLiquid

Agreed. The execution was just sh*t poor and that's what I think skrat is trying to say. I liked the concept of Halo 2's story. Didn't fall into some generic bullsh*t.

Very true. Bungie should have stayed with terminals :P.

[QUOTE="skrat_01"][QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"] FrozenLiquid

1) Halo did not have a rag tag rebel army. It had a fully equipped UNSC force. They merely paled in comparison to the Covenant. Biggest mistake you made: Halo games don't have rebels.Yes the USNC are a well trained force and have dwindling numbers - you can easily draw comparisons between small force vs. the big superpower - which is essentaily what Halo and HL2 convey. As for 'ragtag rebels' fair enough HL2 has got them. Then again Halo does have the chiche of 'highly trained marines' vs bigger alien force.

2) Alien Imperialism: War of the Worlds. I don't know why you're going on about Earth history now, perhaps because I talked about the Great Schism, but I don't think Valve tried to relate the Combine to our history mate.Alien imperialism is in MANY forms of literrature and film. WoTW is the first to touch on it though. Just like Valve bungie tap into this with the covenant being an imperialistic religiously driven race.

3) In Half Life 2, Gordon only found out about the alien controlling race until the end of the game. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who thought the Combine were some sort of group of humans. That's how the story unfolds -- the protagonist finds out then. Doesn't matter if the timeline said otherwise. The story plays that way. Its blatently obvius the combine arent human when you start the game. You find out what the 'overseers' look like towards the end, but its never a secret that the combine arent human.

4) Getting rid of any forms of Art is very cliche in science fiction. Don't "duh" me. Perhaps you've seen Equilibrium. That's a famous one. But it's not like it hasn't been done before. One to avoid if you want to write stories. I own equilibrum on DVD - tis a good movie, but Valve have purposley done it for a reason. They just dont get rid of 'art' but what makes people people - as Equibrium explained its our 'feelings' that make us human. Hell many movies and literature have touched on this. I mean HL2 draws big insparation from. While it has been done before its far from generic in video games.

5) You can throw the sanitation excuse at me, but the simple fact is: It's a hallmark of science fiction. Er no having giant futuristic designs is a cliche in sciencefiction. Its far from a chiche, and your whole 'workers on strike thing' is debunked.

6) As for Gordon, he's your average farmer kid, chosen by the gods, and is the one to free the oppressed people from the Evil Queen (tm). He's relatively untrained, perhaps he can wield a butcher's knife, but somehow he has these amazing abilities that surpass any one in the Evil Queen's army, even her personal body guards. Yeah -- you've heard that cliche, and it's dressed up in Half Life. Soldiers are not generic in themselves: the rebellious, cigar in mouth trigger happy ones are. As I said, read up in the list of cliches, you won't find Master Chief there. Gordon is an MIT graduiate, trained in science whatever, who joined the black mesa program as part of the hazard team. He is trained for deleaing with hazardous materials, in a hazerdous situation, adapts with the situation and yes had weapons training - and plenty of it. Hell of hkills are fleshed out during the training. And here we have MC part of the special spartan program, who says one liners and has almost no personality, destined to save humanity. One big difference is that Gordon is a tool used by the highest bidder - until the events after HL2. Even the Gman blatantly says that to your face in the game. 7) The beard: It doesn't matter - he still has one. Although the reason I guess is better than others. How is a beard a cliche?Shouldent you say power armour is a cliche?

8) I would not expect a lightly trained, 20 minutes in training PhD holder to take on hardened grunts from the military. Not only is it unrealistic, it's cliche. Think Eragon or something. It was cool the first time around, but it's becoming a bother that writers don't seem to care about, and they stick hard to the archetypes. The player doesent know how well Gordon is trained, but he is trained for the job, and how to react in situations. Look at Halo - its blatant MC has been trained before hand, as immediatly at the start of the game he can wield a weapon perfectly. But did we see MC get trained beforehand NO. So technically MC falls into this assumption more than Gordon.

9) And see, this is where I think you don't know what you're talking about. Most amateur writers think that during times of war and depression, people don't search for love. Yeah right. In the middle of a damn war that's all you think about, next to saving your own skin if you can help it. Look on the internet, on the news: you see soldiers shouting out to their loved ones at home. They're not going "All we can think about is that sniper up on the ledge there. Brb". When you're about to die, you ain't thinking of nothing but someone close to your heart, and if you'll ever see them again. So of course, Alyx, if she wanted to be more believable than she is now, would probably have had a husband or boyfriend or whatever. A. Supression field. B. Look at the problems at hand. C. How many elligable bachelours are working for the resistance? Barney, undercover in overwatch? Alyx already has plenty to fight for - hell her father is primary evidence of 'someone she loves' Why else does she go after her dad at Nova Prospect?

10) Yes I'm so stupid I've said it 3 times. I didn't make it up; I'm quoting what's on that list. It seems Gordon has rustled a few protagonist cliches that are all similar. His situation is more realistic than many characters - as I stated MC - who you see get no training other than 'look calibration'. My reasons for the comment are stated eariler.

11) Ok, so no one supports the Combine. Thus, everyone wants to overthrow it. That's what the cliche was saying. Perhaps there could have been people, wacko alien worshippers you sometimes hear of, deludedly happy about the Combine. Who knows. We dont know enought about the combine to make any general assumptions I guess.One thing is blatant - Humans have switched tot he combine side - see overwatch. Not all humans want to stay as the opressed.

12) The Combine, being so ridiculously powerful, are destroyed essentially by one man, and although essentially well done, it was cliched. You would have been screwed without that gravity gun, I tell ya. The Covenant are advanced, yes, but they're only imitating technology. They're not innovative. The only reason the humans are fending off is due to extremely expensive but effective Spartan soldiers. Oh, and since the Covenant are imitative, they don't know what kind of technology they hold. Cortana has done wonders with plasma fire from Covenant ships, but that's in the Halo books anyway. "One man in the right place can make all the difference". - G-Man. Yea that is pretty blatant. And MC falls into the same category - He single handedly blows up the first ring world - with some assistance from token characters and cortanta, as does gordon destroy the citedel with the assistance of token characters and alyx.

13) The big surprise was Breen being under the control of aliens from outer space. See, this is where your argument falls in another matter: What Valve tried to do was manipulate the user into thinking Breen is in control of Combine soldiers: a human army that were like the Nazis or something. Then we find out that the Combine soldiers are actually in control of him. Breen was never the sugessted opressor. When you first see him on the screen he speaks of the benifactors devilvering the citedels as a gift to humanity. Its blatantly obvius he is a tool and posterboy for the combine on earth. You just dont get to see what an 'overseer' actually looks like until the end of the game. 1

4) You see, you believe Gordon is a plausible character. A one man army, who can literally take on an army. He's not. I'm sorry, even with all that training, it wasn't plausible. Anyone can see that. It's just for a fun game, and as someone pointed it out before (although I don't remember where), Valve makes fun of Gordon's one-man image. He is not the Master Chief. He is not a super soldier. He's a guy with a PhD, who did a bit of hazardous materials training and weapons training, But he did not, to our knowledge, enlist in some sort of army. I can't believe you're actually holding out on this one. That's the one most Half Life fans can admit. Yea he isnt a rambo - thats the point Valve was tring to establish at the start of HL1. What he does is adapt and survive to the circumstances, instead of knowing what to expect like MC. That alone makes him more heroic than a hardened soldier hero. He learns how to fight and adapt in HL1 and in HL2 he's more ready for the task at hand even if it an entireley different situation.

15) Aliens and healing are common in science fiction. Once again, I didn't make it up. You just said "So?" as if "So? I don't really give a f***. It's Half Life. It can be cliche so whatever" Ive got nothing else to say. All I said was So they heal. Im not dissagreeing with you. No need to have a bloody hissyfit about it.

16) Well, I never did think the HEV suit gave you greater strength. And it seems I am right, looking at Wikipedia, and understanding what HEV is an acryonym for: Hazardous Environment. If it gave Gordon super strength, they would have worked it into the game no doubt. Look, people are underestimating the use of a weapon. How about you go pick up a shotgun right now and fire it. Do it wrong and you'll get your shoulder dislocated for sure. Seriously, it's like you guys believe the army does training for nothing. I'm not just talking about Gordon too. Seriously, this sounds like one of those "Please comment on my (amateur) story!" and when it does get criticized, they go all defensive. People just shake their heads. What Half Life has done blatantly, has been done to death and there really is nothing you can do about it. The story is engaging, sure, but it does not make it any less unoriginal or generic.

As I stated earlier Gordon had training with various weapons. Sure not as extensive as a soldier, but enough knowlege to know how to wield one - and learn how to wield the weapon in the field. When you first pickup a shotgun in the game you learn as gordon learns how to use the gun. Unlike in Halo where MC has recieved weapons training before hand, the player learns to use the weapons in the training tutorial - as gordon does, and as he picks up weapons in the field of battle. That alone isnt a cliche

Im sure if someone was to make a *HALO Generic and unoriginal* thread you would be one of the first in like to defend Halo, even if blatant information is presented against it, labling it as 'unorginal and generic'. You can call it original and generic, and someone else can beg to differ, and lable it as a copy-cat shooter. Either way your going to disagree and come up with your own opinions of the matter.

That is happening right here.

[QUOTE="inoperativeRS"][QUOTE="skrat_01"] Halo is weird. CE had a decent story and Halo 2 went and screwed things up. Sure its story had loads of potential but in the end it turned into a complete cluster **** imo.

FrozenLiquid

Agreed. The execution was just sh*t poor and that's what I think skrat is trying to say. I liked the concept of Halo 2's story. Didn't fall into some generic bullsh*t.

I think half life could be made into a good film, but only from certain perspectives. Obviously the film couldnt be based around the character of Gordan Freeman, but that doesnt mean that he cant feature in it. The best way to base the film would be around refugees entering city 17, and have the film focus more on the characters, life in City 17, and eventually the resistance movement. Think something like a crossbetween Children of Men and the first few episodes of Battlestar Galactica season 3. It wouldnt be an action film per se, but it could still work. Gordon would be in the film, but I think it would be better if you only saw glimpses of him earlier on, and then obviously he'd have more of a role later on. But no talking lol... Jenova_Flare

That would be very hard, but workable. The thing is, fans will be pissed off when Gordon is only on for a few minutes of screen time. What I think would work is perhaps from the perspective of Eli Vance (well, most of the time anyway), and thus make Gordon look like some saviour as people speak about him like a legend. It's what I hate, but that's what Half Life is about.

As for Gordon being a saviour of the people and legend - well he technically is. Same with Master Chief being called 'The Demon' by the covenant, and praised by the humans. The NAME Master Chief implies how highly regraded he is through his ranking, and because of his actions - just like Gordons, he has achieved a demi-Godly status.

I agree, the story is no masterpiece itself but is told great and is still better than most of the other shooters out there :)

Great post!

Look I will agree the story is knowhere as spectacular as somthing like Deus Ex, but I will concur that there are aspects of the story that are original - no matter the influences, and that the story is quite deep here and there - not shallow.

The games universe however is possibly the best in an FPS, and the storytelling is nothing but spectacular....

Hell HL2's story cant not be deep, and original. A good example is the Combine - which the game, and story revolves around.

The very term combine comments on the combines expansion across the universe, depleting occupied planets of their reasources like a combine harvester. Hell the citidel literally 'eats' the city for raw reasources required in production.

Then it can be used to explain how the combine are a coilition of multiple species as part of one one force. e.g. Aliens, and humas binding together as one force

Finnaly it can explain how the combine literraly 'combine' and manipulate genetics through bio engineering to create transhumans and synths ect.- Which is said to be - by the combine the next stage in human evolution.

Hell vavle even realeased a t-shirt on it:

All of this is very relevant to the story itself, and part of it, so I dont see how it is unoriginal and shallow....

I agree, it wasnt known for its story, but how it was presented and immersive as you said.

But I could say the exact same thing about Halo (but imo that wasnt even immersive), this is not a comparison, but I learned little to nothign about MC as little as a I learned about Gordon Freeman, and nit was pretty obvious from the Start the Halo planet was some kind of danger.

I agree, it wasnt known for its story, but how it was presented and immersive as you said.

But I could say the exact same thing about Halo (but imo that wasnt even immersive), this is not a comparison, but I learned little to nothign about MC as little as a I learned about Gordon Freeman, and nit was pretty obvious from the Start the Halo planet was some kind of danger.

Meu2k7

Thus lol, we know alot more about Gordon than, John from Halo ;) Yea the game does nothing for M.Cs backstory, or his character.

[QUOTE="Meu2k7"]

I agree, it wasnt known for its story, but how it was presented and immersive as you said.

But I could say the exact same thing about Halo (but imo that wasnt even immersive), this is not a comparison, but I learned little to nothign about MC as little as a I learned about Gordon Freeman, and nit was pretty obvious from the Start the Halo planet was some kind of danger.

skrat_01

Thus lol, we know alot more about Gordon than, John from Halo ;) Yea the game does nothing for M.Cs backstory, or his character.

Hmmm , its been a long time I can vaguely remember it :P, from the begginings of both all I can remember is traveling into black mesa via the kart, wandering around talking to people then getting your suit on , trying an experiment and then hell breaks lose :D.

I'l have to play it again soon, unfortunatly, I didnt like HL1 as much, and to me it hasnt aged well at all.

[QUOTE="skrat_01"][QUOTE="Meu2k7"]

I agree, it wasnt known for its story, but how it was presented and immersive as you said.

But I could say the exact same thing about Halo (but imo that wasnt even immersive), this is not a comparison, but I learned little to nothign about MC as little as a I learned about Gordon Freeman, and nit was pretty obvious from the Start the Halo planet was some kind of danger.

Meu2k7

Thus lol, we know alot more about Gordon than, John from Halo ;) Yea the game does nothing for M.Cs backstory, or his character.

Hmmm , its been a long time I can vaguely remember it :P, from the begginings of both all I can remember is traveling into black mesa via the kart, wandering around talking to people then getting your suit on , trying an experiment and then hell breaks lose :D.

I'l have to play it again soon, unfortunatly, I didnt like HL1 as much, and to me it hasnt aged well at all.

Its the whole HL1 one game remade using the source engine.

Looks damn awesome, probably one of the best Single player mods ever, of course for the best SP FPS ever :P

All I'm asking you skrat, is to read the damn link on my first post and to stop reinventing the wheel. You're making up so many cliches just to fit your excuse it's not even funny. This is a standard, agreed by writers of all mediums, and here you are challenging it. You're taking on the whole standard like you think you know more than the people that actually work in it.

Maybe you've read more stories than I have. Maybe you've watched more films. Maybe you've read more internet stories than I have. Maybe you've read more scripts than I have. Perhaps you've written more scripts than I ever will, but if that is so, I fail to see this: You have not noticed Half Life has closely followed well known archetypes.

So seriously, before you continue arguing with me, I want you to read every damn word on that page, read how and why those cliches have been picked, and be learned in all of them before you even start arguing again. Perhaps then you'll have a "Beginner's Guide" in the world of story writing. And that's Science Fiction only.

Also note I will never separate film, novel, or video game in terms of stories. They're all up against each other.

1) First made up cliche -- "highly trained marines vs. aliens". Right. I would like to congratulate you on watching Starship Troopers and Alien 2. We should both go together and propose this cliche, which includes trash talking and stubborn bravery as one to avoid in the future.

2) Alien Imperialism is a common thing in literature, yes (For your information, film is part of literature. I don't know why you left it out). War of the Worlds was not the first to touch on it however. Do not ever mistake popularity for innovation. Influence yes, but not innovation. But, you've answered your own question, and yes, it's a cliche, and Half Life 2 has it.

I don't know if you know the word Imperialism or not, but the Covenant are far, far from being Imperialistic. They've assimilated other species, yes, but they glass planets rather than take them, and they have their own Covenant City so they don't need to take over planets.

3) Valve are masters at storytelling, correct? Well if it was so obvious, then they failed. Miserably. It's a no brainer their intentions were to keep the audience guessing. They were humanoid, they spoke English. The furthest anyone could have gone was to say that humans had perhaps integrated alien technology into their weaponry. However, if you knew the Combine were an alien race from the start, you probably knew something was up with Doctor Breen being leader, and there goes Valve's masterful storytelling down the drain.

4) As I have stated, video games and literature both tell stories, so I'm not going to put them into separate pools. I've judged Halo the whole time against other franchises in film and novels and poems. Yes, Valve had purposely done what they did, but if I had to show the oppression of humanity, that's the first and foremost thing I'd go for too. That's called being lazy. Lucky for Valve, they weren't, and they told it nicely. That's being diligent. Nevertheless, it is an overused archetype.

5) You seem to forget the Matrix and Equilibrium are science fiction films. They did not have "futuristic designs". They have oppressive, "poorman" sets/dysotopian. This is the second cliche you've made up. I think we need to have a lesson on System Wars about cliches too, because people don't know how vague or specific cliches have to be. It's tailored to their tastes. And don't you even dare point that finger at me, because if I did that myself, Halo wouldn't have a cliche, and yet I can see many.

6) Yes, we can play dress ups. Carol is a factory worker, and one day, a fire broke out at her factory. There were people on the highest level that needed rescuing, but try as they might, the firefighters couldn't do it themselves. So good ol' Carol had to save them (because she is the protagonist), and she did what no other fully trained, physically able firefighter could. It's still the same farmer boy defeating the Evil Queen cliche, but with a new setting. Freeman had to fight off HECU soldiers and Black Ops, and they are quite frankly more trained in combat than that man would ever be. I don't think anyone would argue with that.

7) What are you trying to play at skrat.... this is getting pathetic. You want to be spoon fed everything in Halo? Yet at the same time we have to search for clues in Half Life 2? What the hell are you playing at? It's bloody irrelevant whether we saw MC trained or not. He's a Master Chief -- any bloke would know what that means. Soldiers are glad to see him, Keyes and Cortana act like he's some sort of human weapon. Common sense mate, get with the times. And my friend right now wants to know: How old are you?

8) Ah, so when I run through the building in the first part of the game, clearly with a male and female couple, it's obviously an exception to the suppression field which only suppresses you from mating, correct? I'll paraphrase MGS, not matter how cheesy and stupid it sounds: "Love can blossom on the battlefield". It's obviously doing so with Alyx and Gordon. Yet strange how she never felt it for someone else. :roll: It's a cliche writers seem to forget. I don't think many writers know how humans work at certain times. That's why people who write from experience make better stories.

9) Yeah, and that's actually a pretty stupid argument. I can't believe you just said that. There's a prologue in the game manual detailing who the Chief is. You can even read it on the back of the box. Or you can just use your head: The Master Chief is a trained soldier, unlike Gordon, who is a trained civilian. Obviously the soldiers in the Transformers movie are unrealistic as well because we never get to see them train either :roll:

10) As for the humans switching to the Combine, I never knew that, I'm gonna have to look it up.

11) I won't deny that quote the G-man said, but it's the bits in between that bother me. I refuse to believe Freeman is way more adept at combat than Combine soldiers, or the HECU or Black Ops. It's stupid, it's done to death, and Valve knows it.

12) Let me make it more clear: we did not know the Combine soldiers were aliens, and we did not know it was the same Combine, doing petty things, that were in fact control of Breen. At first it would seem the benefactors are from Xen or some other worldly planet, and that Breen was in control of the Combine soldiers, who could've been human (they acted and behaved like humans, as hinted by the "immature" soldier asking Freeman to pick up a can he just knocked off a bin). But those that were seemingly underneath Breen were in fact on top of him all along.

13) Your extrapolation is very sloppy -- Gordon Freeman is Rambo, and he is no more heroic than a soldier, a mercernary, or whatever. It's just as stupid as saying MC is more heroic than anything because even whilst losing Linda and his team he's still carrying on. Or even though Samus Aran is a girl, she kicks Space Pirate Ass. Your background doesn't deem how heroic you are. It's your actions, and all of them point and shoot.

14) You're kidding me. You've denied one of the biggest cliches in existence -- the person who can wield anything without prior knowledge. If you went and told that to the Screenwriters Guild they'd slap you. Yes yes, we all know Valve wants you to be Gordon Freeman. That's not the point. If we're learning as he learns how to use a shotgun, I'm expecting almost zero accuracy at anything but point blank range from when he first uses it. But no, he's even deadlier than a bloody ninja woman who took only god knows how long to train to get to where she was. If you didn't know about that awful archetype, you haven't been reading a lot of books, be it good or bad.

As for that Halo comment, and the prior examples you've given about Halo and Half Life, it's obvious to me you're bitter. Now, if someone were to give me that thread about Halo being generic and unoriginal, with clear information as to why it isn't, I'd like to see it. In fact, I'm waiting to see a damn good argument. Trust me skrat, you weren't here when VandalVideo had to wimp out of that argument. I doubt many others can do better than he did, and he did well. But yes, if you'd like to start a Halo is unoriginal and generic thread, be my guest. I'll accept it if I can't deny the facts. Lucky for me, I'm not a fan boy, and I'm open minded. And I'll take anything and everything that increases my knowledge to make myself better and not fall into the traps other people have.

Secondly, I'll tell you what I tell others guys who think I like Michael Jackson's music just because I like Michael Jackson:

I don't like what Halo has to offer because I like Halo. I like Halo because I like what Halo has to offer ;).

As for the beard growth thing, it's a cliche in a way that it show's a protagonists masculinity. Much like a female protagonist is perfectly proportioned and stunningly beautiful.

If you haven't seen something along the lines of "Haggard scratched his rough chin" or "Bytran rubbed his short stubble", you need to read more sci fi stories. Preferably amateur ones. They always have it. High fantasy has a lot of it too.

Hmmm , its been a long time I can vaguely remember it :P, from the begginings of both all I can remember is traveling into black mesa via the kart, wandering around talking to people then getting your suit on , trying an experiment and then hell breaks lose :D.

I'l have to play it again soon, unfortunatly, I didnt like HL1 as much, and to me it hasnt aged well at all.

Meu2k7

I think Half Life 1 has aged perfectly fine. Beautiful atmosphere that very few can beat.

The Half-Life story is presented in an amazingly well done action movie style and thats one of the main things I remember it for, but to be honest I was pretty disappointed with how Half-Life 2 turned out. I just did not connect to it the same way I connected to the first game.smokeydabear076

Someone pointed out that Valve did not think they'd do a sequel, and although the ending of Half Life 1 stated otherwise, I'm not sure. I'm going to have to play the game again in a perspective as to see whether things have followed on smoothly from the first game. You can usually pick out if a sequel was planned or not. Perhaps they didn't know where they wanted to go, I don't know.

The thing is, Eli Vance and Dr. Kleiner weren't in the first games, although Valve does say that black scientist is Vance, and one of the many bald scientists is Kleiner. Actually seems fishy now.....

Yeah the story is somewhat generic I'll grant that. Having played and beaten Halo 1 & 2 and Half Life 2 I can honestly say that Half Life 2 is head and shoulders better than the Halo's. While both series are great games, Halo is very over rated and Half Life 2 is very under rated.briguyb13

I agree.

Yeah the story is somewhat generic I'll grant that. Having played and beaten Halo 1 & 2 and Half Life 2 I can honestly say that Half Life 2 is head and shoulders better than the Halo's. While both series are great games, Halo is very over rated and Half Life 2 is very under rated.briguyb13

Yeah the story is somewhat generic I'll grant that. Having played and beaten Halo 1 & 2 and Half Life 2 I can honestly say that Half Life 2 is head and shoulders better than the Halo's. While both series are great games, Halo is very over rated and Half Life 2 is very under rated.briguyb13

[QUOTE="briguyb13"]Yeah the story is somewhat generic I'll grant that. Having played and beaten Halo 1 & 2 and Half Life 2 I can honestly say that Half Life 2 is head and shoulders better than the Halo's. While both series are great games, Halo is very over rated and Half Life 2 is very under rated.gamerchris810

I agree.

[QUOTE="briguyb13"]Yeah the story is somewhat generic I'll grant that. Having played and beaten Halo 1 & 2 and Half Life 2 I can honestly say that Half Life 2 is head and shoulders better than the Halo's. While both series are great games, Halo is very over rated and Half Life 2 is very under rated.smokeydabear076

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="briguyb13"]Yeah the story is somewhat generic I'll grant that. Having played and beaten Halo 1 & 2 and Half Life 2 I can honestly say that Half Life 2 is head and shoulders better than the Halo's. While both series are great games, Halo is very over rated and Half Life 2 is very under rated.real_madrid_99

[QUOTE="real_madrid_99"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="briguyb13"]Yeah the story is somewhat generic I'll grant that. Having played and beaten Halo 1 & 2 and Half Life 2 I can honestly say that Half Life 2 is head and shoulders better than the Halo's. While both series are great games, Halo is very over rated and Half Life 2 is very under rated.smokeydabear076

care to give a reason?real_madrid_99

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="real_madrid_99"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="briguyb13"]Yeah the story is somewhat generic I'll grant that. Having played and beaten Halo 1 & 2 and Half Life 2 I can honestly say that Half Life 2 is head and shoulders better than the Halo's. While both series are great games, Halo is very over rated and Half Life 2 is very under rated.real_madrid_99