Having A Silent Protagonist Is Lazy Storytelling

I think it works for games that don't really focus on the storytelling, as a way of removing the focus from one of the more lackluster elements. But overall, I don't think it should have a place in games that take themselves seriously.

So for games like Zelda, by all means, silent protagonist. But playing Persona 2's Batsu, I really feel Maya's character was betrayed the 2nd time around.

It is interesting to note that characters in Western games/media seem to be quite chatty, while not that many characters in Japanese games/media do not. I think this is a matter of culture incorporated into games.

thom_maytees

Japanese people can be chatty.

Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, and The Golden Sun Games have no problem Telling Stories.

Depends on the game.

Having a silent protagonist mostly kills characterization, but that can work in non story heavy games.

Though I am always annoyed by HL fans that say, "OMG Gordan Freeman is the best character ever!!!".

HE'S NOT, HE LACKS ANY CHARACTERIZATION AT ALL SO STOP SAYING HE'S A GREAT CHARACTER!!!

Depends on the game.

Having a silent protagonist mostly kills characterization, but that can work in non story heavy games.

Though I am always annoyed by HL fans that say, "OMG Gordan Freeman is the best character ever!!!".

HE'S NOT, HE LACKS ANY CHARACTERIZATION AT ALL SO STOP SAYING HE'S A GREAT CHARACTER!!!

dercoo

If you're going to argue that games with silent protagonists allow for you to "play yourself" and then say they're "great characters," you're essentially saying "i am a great character." Lol ... what?

Depends on the game.

Having a silent protagonist mostly kills characterization, but that can work in non story heavy games.

Though I am always annoyed by HL fans that say, "OMG Gordan Freeman is the best character ever!!!".

HE'S NOT, HE LACKS ANY CHARACTERIZATION AT ALL SO STOP SAYING HE'S A GREAT CHARACTER!!!

I dont buy into the whole 'it allows the player to project themselves onto the protagonist' BS excuse. you relate to a charatcer that actually has.. a character. this just lazy storytelling. it isnt 1992 anymore, any game in 2011 that has a silent protagonist is obsolete and that includes zelda and half-life

black_chamber99

If its half-life, I'm cool with it. But why is it so hard to give link a voice? And why do I have to read stupid text. Cutscenes exist now nintendo.

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

If I recall isnt his voice a bit rough for Link? Although i would prefer it to something too mouse like :P.

NaveedLife

Much rather have it battle-hardened and more badass sounding than a high-pitched, girly sounding Japanese voice.

lol me too, I just think if they do that, they need to have an older more rugged looking link :P.

Once I finally get some experience with making video game stuff (Gonna have to be all self-taught :P ) I WILL MAKE THIS A REALITY!...then get shut down by Nintendo :(

Sometimes it works, sometimes it does'nt, simple as that.

Translation: Are you a die-hard Zelda/Half-Life fanboy or a gamer who recognizes that in a vast majority of cases it doesn't add much or anything to the story, and a fleshed out protagonist would in fact add a lot more?Boomshaffted

[QUOTE="Boomshaffted"]Translation: Are you a die-hard Zelda/Half-Life fanboy or a gamer who recognizes that in a vast majority of cases it doesn't add much or anything to the story, and a fleshed out protagonist would in fact add a lot more?Mrmccormo

Games are just media and merit is merit. It's okay for games to focus on good stories.

Depends on the game and how the story is being told. It works in a game like Half-life because, as many have stated, you never leave the perspective of that particular character, so it creates a strong feeling of immersion because you don't actually ever look at the character in-game. However, in some games, it creates a weird disconnect. I'm not trying to jump on the Call of Duty hate bandwagon, but in Modern Warfare 2 *spoilers if you care* when you start playing as Soap near the end, I found it very bizarre that he was suddenly silent in the last couple of levels, merely because you were playing as him. All throughout the game while you're playing as Roach, he's yelling orders at you left and right, but now his personality has completely changed? That stuck out to me more than having a silent protagonist throughout the whole game. Again, it's all about the storytelling.

So Chrono Trigger's story was lazy because the main character didn't talk?

So Chrono Trigger's story was lazy because the main character didn't talk?

magiciandude

It would be better if he had a character.

[QUOTE="magiciandude"]

So Chrono Trigger's story was lazy because the main character didn't talk?

It would be better if he had a character.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="magiciandude"]

So Chrono Trigger's story was lazy because the main character didn't talk?

texasgoldrush

It would be better if he had a character.

Chrono Trigger was an excellent game for its time.

Doesn't matter.

[QUOTE="Mrmccormo"][QUOTE="Boomshaffted"]Translation: Are you a die-hard Zelda/Half-Life fanboy or a gamer who recognizes that in a vast majority of cases it doesn't add much or anything to the story, and a fleshed out protagonist would in fact add a lot more?hakanakumono

Games are just media and merit is merit. It's okay for games to focus on good stories.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

It would be better if he had a character.

Chrono Trigger was an excellent game for its time.

Doesn't matter.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] the only true fault in one of the greatest JRPGs ever. The story really wasn't about Chrono anyway.texasgoldrush

Chrono Trigger was an excellent game for its time.

Doesn't matter.

Hahaha sure.

[QUOTE="magiciandude"]

So Chrono Trigger's story was lazy because the main character didn't talk?

hakanakumono

It would be better if he had a character.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Mrmccormo"] What does it add? More cutscenes? More wasted time watching what the developers turned into a movie instead of simply playing the game? Are you a die-hard cutscene fanboy who recognized that in a vast majority of cases storyline doesn't add much or anything to GAMEPLAY, the most important aspect of a videogame?Mrmccormo

Games are just media and merit is merit. It's okay for games to focus on good stories.

I don't agree that it = lazy devs, but I would argue that from a story standpoint it's less than ideal.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Chrono Trigger was an excellent game for its time.

Doesn't matter.

Hahaha sure.

I don't agree that it = lazy devs, but I would argue that from a story standpoint it's less than ideal.hakanakumono

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]I don't agree that it = lazy devs, but I would argue that from a story standpoint it's less than ideal.Mrmccormo

I don't think creating an experience is the same as creating a story. And while I think that videogames truly are separate and have to be judged separately, I don't think they have to be entirely different.

I think in the end the question is whether or not the game creates a meritious experience. That can be done through gameplay or story. But I'd also like to reiterate that I don't think games that don't construct narratives should be acredited with great stories.

Does the character have to say anything to have character? No, not really. Link is still a hero and everyone knows him. Actions speak louder than words.

The only exception is when we play as this person and we have no background information. The only exception to THAT rule is Bioshock.

UC3Drake

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="magiciandude"]

So Chrono Trigger's story was lazy because the main character didn't talk?

texasgoldrush

It would be better if he had a character.

I genuinely disagree with this, the best part about Chrono Trigger is literally that the story is not about the characters individually but rather about how they come to discover a greater danger in the world. The side quests essentially help tie all the little knots in the character's development but chron's personality is reflected through his actions and his cast. The game is never about Chrono which is why you don't even need to have him in the party which is positive.

[QUOTE="dercoo"]

Depends on the game.

Having a silent protagonist mostly kills characterization, but that can work in non story heavy games.

Though I am always annoyed by HL fans that say, "OMG Gordan Freeman is the best character ever!!!".

HE'S NOT, HE LACKS ANY CHARACTERIZATION AT ALL SO STOP SAYING HE'S A GREAT CHARACTER!!!

VideoGameGuy

He never speaks, never shows his opinion, and just does what others tell him to do.

He's the worlds biggest tool.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] for its time, and for now....the genre has devolved since then.texasgoldrush

Hahaha sure.

The first half of Chrono Trigger is typical linear RPG though, the second half opens up immensely which is great because at that point the general plot is already established but the only real difference between trigger and new RPGs is that at the end trigger tried to already have the main conflict set up and let you deal with it how you wanted. Its not anything to do with cinematics and interactivity, hell, FF7 has more interactivity with the world itself then chrono trigger does. Trigger does have a great theme about the past affecting the future though.

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

Much rather have it battle-hardened and more badass sounding than a high-pitched, girly sounding Japanese voice.

ChubbyGuy40

lol me too, I just think if they do that, they need to have an older more rugged looking link :P.

Once I finally get some experience with making video game stuff (Gonna have to be all self-taught :P ) I WILL MAKE THIS A REALITY!...then get shut down by Nintendo :(

Not that old! lol, if they make link like that we can just put him and Old snake together to have a grand ol (lol) time ;). haha....two of my favorite series :). ALthough Zelda wins lol. it is Zelda, it ALWAYS WINS!

I don't think creating an experience is the same as creating a story. And while I think that videogames truly are separate and have to be judged separately, I don't think they have to be entirely different.I think in the end the question is whether or not the game creates a meritious experience. That can be done through gameplay or story. But I'd also like to reiterate that I don't think games that don't construct narratives should be acredited with great stories.hakanakumono

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Hahaha sure.

The first half of Chrono Trigger is typical linear RPG though, the second half opens up immensely which is great because at that point the general plot is already established but the only real difference between trigger and new RPGs is that at the end trigger tried to already have the main conflict set up and let you deal with it how you wanted. Its not anything to do with cinematics and interactivity, hell, FF7 has more interactivity with the world itself then chrono trigger does. Trigger does have a great theme about the past affecting the future though.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]I don't think creating an experience is the same as creating a story. And while I think that videogames truly are separate and have to be judged separately, I don't think they have to be entirely different.I think in the end the question is whether or not the game creates a meritious experience. That can be done through gameplay or story. But I'd also like to reiterate that I don't think games that don't construct narratives should be acredited with great stories.Mrmccormo

That's not a story though. I'm sorry, I disagree.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] yep, into more cinematic, far more linear games, with far less interactivity. Except for Atlus who actually does evolve th egenre but the mainstream doesn't pick up on.texasgoldrush

The first half of Chrono Trigger is typical linear RPG though, the second half opens up immensely which is great because at that point the general plot is already established but the only real difference between trigger and new RPGs is that at the end trigger tried to already have the main conflict set up and let you deal with it how you wanted. Its not anything to do with cinematics and interactivity, hell, FF7 has more interactivity with the world itself then chrono trigger does. Trigger does have a great theme about the past affecting the future though.

the fair is irrelevant though because no matter what you do at the fair nothing changes. You can get a non guilty plea yet you still end up the exact same which imo is a flaw since you don't even get like a bonus or something for being honest :P

Magus was a genuine choice though that also pretty much does not do much to the story either but I'll give it to you. saving Lucca's mother's legs again is just a formality, these things don't do anything to the plot for the most part, it changes essentially like one attitude change in the characters that isn't even relevant to the whole overaching story.

Being able to beat the game without Chrono makes sense because Chrono Trigger isn't about Chrono. That's one of the strength's we disagree about, the game is better because Chrono is an observer wrapped up in the conflict imo. In terms of interacting though, FF7 has parts where you get to interact with the world iteself more then the characters, some Chrono Trigger lacks (though this is a tech thing imo). Place like the Golden Saucer, the little RTS battles on the mountain, the date, collecting the giant materia, and characters like vincent and Yuffie helped add a bit of characterization and awe to th world itself. Anyway trhough, back on topic, hrono Trigger is awesome but its not much different from regular RPGs today excpet it has a much better second half.

That's not a story though. I'm sorry, I disagree.hakanakumono

I think the ideas of a story and an adventure are being confused here. The journey that the character goes on is the adventure. The narrative framing the adventure is the story.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]That's not a story though. I'm sorry, I disagree.Mrmccormo

That's because back in the day, developers didn't focus on story. Words and depictions of actions are necessary for stories. Otherwise they're not stories, they're just the adventures that the characters go on.

It doesn't have anything to do with being accustomed to anything. After all, I didn't grow up seeing videogames as storytelling vehicles.

Edit: By the way, dialogue existed in the 80s, mind you.

That's because back in the day, developers didn't focus on story. Words and depictions of actions are necessary for stories. Otherwise they're not stories, they're just the adventures that the characters go on.

It doesn't have anything to do with being accustomed to anything. After all, I didn't grow up seeing videogames as storytelling vehicles.

hakanakumono

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

The first half of Chrono Trigger is typical linear RPG though, the second half opens up immensely which is great because at that point the general plot is already established but the only real difference between trigger and new RPGs is that at the end trigger tried to already have the main conflict set up and let you deal with it how you wanted. Its not anything to do with cinematics and interactivity, hell, FF7 has more interactivity with the world itself then chrono trigger does. Trigger does have a great theme about the past affecting the future though.

the fair is irrelevant though because no matter what you do at the fair nothing changes. You can get a non guilty plea yet you still end up the exact same which imo is a flaw since you don't even get like a bonus or something for being honest :P

Magus was a genuine choice though that also pretty much does not do much to the story either but I'll give it to you. saving Lucca's mother's legs again is just a formality, these things don't do anything to the plot for the most part, it changes essentially like one attitude change in the characters that isn't even relevant to the whole overaching story.

Being able to beat the game without Chrono makes sense because Chrono Trigger isn't about Chrono. That's one of the strength's we disagree about, the game is better because Chrono is an observer wrapped up in the conflict imo. In terms of interacting though, FF7 has parts where you get to interact with the world iteself more then the characters, some Chrono Trigger lacks (though this is a tech thing imo). Place like the Golden Saucer, the little RTS battles on the mountain, the date, collecting the giant materia, and characters like vincent and Yuffie helped add a bit of characterization and awe to th world itself. Anyway trhough, back on topic, hrono Trigger is awesome but its not much different from regular RPGs today excpet it has a much better second half.

[QUOTE="Mrmccormo"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]That's not a story though. I'm sorry, I disagree.hakanakumono

That's because back in the day, developers didn't focus on story. Words and depictions of actions are necessary for stories. Otherwise they're not stories, they're just the adventures that the characters go on.

It doesn't have anything to do with being accustomed to anything. After all, I didn't grow up seeing videogames as storytelling vehicles.

Edit: By the way, dialogue existed in the 80s, mind you.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] Its linear in the first half, yeah, but there are moments where your aqctions can impact things....like how you treat Marle at the fair and the actions you take, can show up later in the trial. It actually did have more interactivity due to the fact that the game had moments of choice and consquence, which FFVII lacks. You can kill Magus to free Frog, save Lucca's mothers legs, and beat the entire game without Chrono (in which is a step foward from FFVI, which outright FORCES Terra into the ending). Its also theortically possible to kill Lavos at any time in the story.texasgoldrush

the fair is irrelevant though because no matter what you do at the fair nothing changes. You can get a non guilty plea yet you still end up the exact same which imo is a flaw since you don't even get like a bonus or something for being honest :P

Magus was a genuine choice though that also pretty much does not do much to the story either but I'll give it to you. saving Lucca's mother's legs again is just a formality, these things don't do anything to the plot for the most part, it changes essentially like one attitude change in the characters that isn't even relevant to the whole overaching story.

Being able to beat the game without Chrono makes sense because Chrono Trigger isn't about Chrono. That's one of the strength's we disagree about, the game is better because Chrono is an observer wrapped up in the conflict imo. In terms of interacting though, FF7 has parts where you get to interact with the world iteself more then the characters, some Chrono Trigger lacks (though this is a tech thing imo). Place like the Golden Saucer, the little RTS battles on the mountain, the date, collecting the giant materia, and characters like vincent and Yuffie helped add a bit of characterization and awe to th world itself. Anyway trhough, back on topic, hrono Trigger is awesome but its not much different from regular RPGs today excpet it has a much better second half.

True, the endings change depending on if you use him. The story is not about him but he is a character with a lot of face time. The trial was really cool I admit though since I played CT last year it didn't strike me as wow this is amazing more so then a great way to characterize some of the characters. (the trial literally has no negative reflection on Chrono though lol)

Haven't played FF6 so no comment there. I enjoyed being able to play the plot in FF7, FF8 was a step back from that imo. (FF8 had a better start then 7 though) I need to play orge battle (yeah for Virtual console :D )Haven't played 13 either but I know that I won't be blown away in terms of its JRPG components.

Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, and The Golden Sun Games have no problem Telling Stories.

LegatoSkyheart

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]That's because back in the day, developers didn't focus on story. Words and depictions of actions are necessary for stories. Otherwise they're not stories, they're just the adventures that the characters go on.

It doesn't have anything to do with being accustomed to anything. After all, I didn't grow up seeing videogames as storytelling vehicles.

Mrmccormo

Maybe I spoke too soon about the 80s. I didn't really grow up in the 80s and the text adventure genres slipped my mind.

But books have description. Not everything is just left for you to imagine things; authors describe characters, settings, etc. It's not just an "imagination session" where you pretend the characters have certain personalities and have certain thoughts because none of these things are given to you. There is a wealth of information in books deliberately given to you by authors.

I will agree that the gameplay can make up part of the story, because the adventure that would otherwise be described in a game is put into the gameplay. And a game can be deliberate in it's gameplay. But I don't think the story can fall on this alone.

As for me telling "developers that they were wrong," I don't really think anyone crafted a dungeon in Zelda thinking it was "storytelling" the way they laid it out or designed a boss fight. I don't consider moving from one hall to another in Resident Evil to be "storytelling." No, it's the cutscenes, the dialouge, and the archive files that tell the story.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Mrmccormo"] If you go back to what game companies were like in the '80s and '90s, YES, that absolutely was considered a story. It wasn't until devs started cramming cutscenes and dialog into games when those were considered the normal methods of videogame storytelling. Virtually every game company of the past knew that tellign a story was not as important as SHOWING a story through the art, the gameplay, etc. Simply because you're accustomed to one form of "videogame storytelling" does not negate how videogame stories were perceived in the past.texasgoldrush

That's because back in the day, developers didn't focus on story. Words and depictions of actions are necessary for stories. Otherwise they're not stories, they're just the adventures that the characters go on.

It doesn't have anything to do with being accustomed to anything. After all, I didn't grow up seeing videogames as storytelling vehicles.

Edit: By the way, dialogue existed in the 80s, mind you.

Cutscenes and movies are artistic interpretations of how we experience our world - through an audiovisual manner. They're perfectly valid methods of storytelling, even in videogames.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

the fair is irrelevant though because no matter what you do at the fair nothing changes. You can get a non guilty plea yet you still end up the exact same which imo is a flaw since you don't even get like a bonus or something for being honest :P

Magus was a genuine choice though that also pretty much does not do much to the story either but I'll give it to you. saving Lucca's mother's legs again is just a formality, these things don't do anything to the plot for the most part, it changes essentially like one attitude change in the characters that isn't even relevant to the whole overaching story.

Being able to beat the game without Chrono makes sense because Chrono Trigger isn't about Chrono. That's one of the strength's we disagree about, the game is better because Chrono is an observer wrapped up in the conflict imo. In terms of interacting though, FF7 has parts where you get to interact with the world iteself more then the characters, some Chrono Trigger lacks (though this is a tech thing imo). Place like the Golden Saucer, the little RTS battles on the mountain, the date, collecting the giant materia, and characters like vincent and Yuffie helped add a bit of characterization and awe to th world itself. Anyway trhough, back on topic, hrono Trigger is awesome but its not much different from regular RPGs today excpet it has a much better second half.

True, the endings change depending on if you use him. The story is not about him but he is a character with a lot of face time. The trial was really cool I admit though since I played CT last year it didn't strike me as wow this is amazing more so then a great way to characterize some of the characters. (the trial literally has no negative reflection on Chrono though lol)

Haven't played FF6 so no comment there. I enjoyed being able to play the plot in FF7, FF8 was a step back from that imo. (FF8 had a better start then 7 though) I need to play orge battle (yeah for Virtual console :D )Haven't played 13 either but I know that I won't be blown away in terms of its JRPG components.