@Jag85: What is clear is that you made a claim that you cannot back up when challenged and incorrectly used the thr term strawman argument. Not only that, you opted out of providing and alternate source despite claiming you used multiple sources for your claim. I never understood why folks like yourself get so disgruntled when evidence for your claim is requested. In the future avoid making bold statements if you are unwilling to provide evidence. If you do have valid data in the future, feel free to post.
How active is this forum?
@hardwenzen: @Willy105: Were you guys ever OT posters? The prank mostly impacted the OT community here. If you guys were here back then, you might remember OT's community used to be just as big as SW's, if not bigger. Nowadays OT is almost completely inactive.
@MirkoS77: @briguyb13: I went ahead and looked up the incidents you guys described, and it is true that John has not posted since he did that video.
However, that ignores the fact that a big number (most of?) of posters in that very thread were defending John, and they aren't banned or anything, including John. Why aren't they banned if discussion is one sided? Usually people are banned for promoting bigotry or harassment or other things like that, which is also bannable here. Derailment is also not allowed here either.
It's not adding up, man. You are clearly very upset at that forum for some reason that is not what you list.
@jaydan: That makes sense. Never really used that forum. I thought it was replaced by the Politics forum or something.
@Pedro:
Gender Sexualization in Digital Games (University of South Florida)
Western culture has been shaped by the Abrahamic religions, while Japanese culture has been shaped by Shinto and Buddhism, influencing the social norms of their cultures. While nudity was seen as something shameful in traditional Western culture, there was little-to-no shame in nudity for traditional Japanese culture. In feudal Japan, it was even the norm for men and women to bathe naked together. This was offensive to Western Christian visitors, so the Meiji government eventually outlawed mixed-bathing while attempting to "Westernize" Japan. But traditional Japanese attitudes to nudity and sexuality have persisted. Today, there's a similar culture shock when Westerners are exposed to Japanese media. In Japanese media, there is often more nudity than what Westerners are used to, occasionally even in Japanese media for younger audiences. To Western audiences, it might appear to be a form of sexualization. Yet many Japanese audiences don't see it as sexualized. There are quite a few Japanese artists and designers, for example, the designers of FFXV's Cindy, who have expressed surprise at Westerners finding their work to be sexualized and denying that their characters are sexualized. And more often than not, the allegedly sexist characters were designed by Japanese female artists, for example, the designer of Bayonetta. Another issue is different attitudes to feminism in Japan. In this video, most of the Japanese people interviewed on the streets have never even heard of feminism. There's also an Ipsos poll which shows only a minority of Japanese support feminism, compared to the majority of Westerners. In other words, there hasn't been a feminist backlash against nude or sexualized characters in Japan, like what we've seen in the West these last few decades. Not too long ago, it was common for Western games and comics to also sexualize female characters like their Japanese counterparts, but with the rising influence of feminism, sexualization has significantly reduced in Western games and comics. One reason why such a feminist backlash didn't occur in Japan goes back to my point above about differing cultural attitudes to sexuality and nudity, which usually isn't as offensive to Japanese as they are to Westerners.
@Jag85 said:
@Pedro:
Gender Sexualization in Digital Games (University of South Florida)
Western culture has been shaped by the Abrahamic religions, while Japanese culture has been shaped by Shinto and Buddhism, influencing the social norms of their cultures. While nudity was seen as something shameful in traditional Western culture, there was little-to-no shame in nudity for traditional Japanese culture. In feudal Japan, it was even the norm for men and women to bathe naked together. This was offensive to Western Christian visitors, so the Meiji government eventually outlawed mixed-bathing while attempting to "Westernize" Japan. But traditional Japanese attitudes to nudity and sexuality have persisted. Today, there's a similar culture shock when Westerners are exposed to Japanese media. In Japanese media, there is often more nudity than what Westerners are used to, occasionally even in Japanese media for younger audiences. To Western audiences, it might appear to be a form of sexualization. Yet many Japanese audiences don't see it as sexualized. There are quite a few Japanese artists and designers, for example, the designers of FFXV's Cindy, who have expressed surprise at Westerners finding their work to be sexualized and denying that their characters are sexualized. And more often than not, the allegedly sexist characters were designed by Japanese female artists, for example, the designer of Bayonetta. Another issue is different attitudes to feminism in Japan. In this video, most of the Japanese people interviewed on the streets have never even heard of feminism. There's also an Ipsos poll which shows only a minority of Japanese support feminism, compared to the majority of Westerners. In other words, there hasn't been a feminist backlash against nude or sexualized characters in Japan, like what we've seen in the West these last few decades. Not too long ago, it was common for Western games and comics to also sexualize female characters like their Japanese counterparts, but with the rising influence of feminism, sexualization has significantly reduced in Western games and comics. One reason why such a feminist backlash didn't occur in Japan goes back to my point above about differing cultural attitudes to sexuality and nudity, which usually isn't as offensive to Japanese as they are to Westerners.
I will refer to the original claim that was called into question
"The irony is that most Japanese female gamers have no issues with the way they're depicted in Japanese games,"
You provided a link to a study in which 9 participants were surveyed. None of the participants were Japanese. You quoted one of the 9 participants as an explanation for you the quote in question above. That is all well and good but none of this validated the statement above. If you don't have data to validate the statement, that is fine. But you need to provide data directly relating to your statement if you are trying to pass it off as a true statement. Otherwise its just your perception. Also a sample size of 9 is not a valid sample size.
As a side note. I do think it would be an interesting dynamic if there is data validating your claim.
@Willy105: I was speaking in general about the excessive banning and moderations on era. For instance, someone not agreeing that a female character is being sexualized results in an instant suspension. One post I read there said that TLoU 2 character was not tran-sexual, and that person was banned.
It's petty shit like those examples that make posting there one-sided. You have to parrot a certain view point or your posting rights are swept away in an instant.
The moment I mentioned I was centrist, I was instantly targeted and banned soon afterwards. They'd drum up ignorant excuses like "your link is to a hateful movement" and it would simply be a news article from a game site.
It's a shame really, because as others have said: there are genuine gaming threads and discussion to be had, and lots of fast news and info to ingest there.
@Pedro: I was referring to sexualisation more specifically. Maybe they may have other issues not related to sexualisation, but it's safe to say that most don't care about sexualisation in video games (not including hentai, of course).
Plenty of data has already been provided. We know that in traditional Japanese culture, men and women used to bathe naked together. We know that in the 90s, most Japanese female gamers in an SNK poll expressed a preference for sexualised female characters. We know from the Ipsos poll that most Japanese women today do not care about feminism at all. We know that the backlash against video game sexualisation in the West arose from the feminist movement. And that there has yet to be such a mainstream backlash in Japan as there has been in the West.
Now this is where we interpret the data and make logical deductions from the data. The logical conclusion is that most Japanese female gamers do not care about sexualised depictions of women in video games. Caring about such an issue would entail caring about feminism, which is what led to Western backlash against video game sexualisation in the first place. If most Japanese women don't even care about feminism, why would they care about video game sexualisation? And what makes you think the preferences of Japanese female gamers must have changed since the 90s?
Also, instead of just randomly demanding "data", specify what type of data you're actually referring to. Be more specific.
@Willy105: However, that ignores the fact that a big number (most of?) of posters in that very thread were defending John, and they aren't banned or anything, including John. Why aren't they banned if discussion is one sided? Usually people are banned for promoting bigotry or harassment or other things like that, which is also bannable here. Derailment is also not allowed here either.
People weren't banned because they were coming to the defense of John, which was independent of the controversy of which he was being falsely accused of enabling. He wasn't advocating for any position, hence the absence of bans coming to his defense. But people were banned for coming to his defense by making the merest suggestion of a position that challenges the presupposition of bigotry by Era on the part of the developers, such as this:
"Keep up the good work, John. I know it's hard to read shit like this when it's aimed to you for nothing. But don't let this get to you. The concept of separating art from politics can be tough for some people, but the best course of action is just to ignore them."
BAN. Reason? "Rhetoric rationalizing bigotry". Explain that to me. This ban is predicated upon a presumption that isn't even allowed to be debated or established on their forum; the so-called "bigotry" is treated as a given from the get-go. Hence a one-sided discussion. And I, for one, don't believe what was done by the developers with Ion Fury is indicative of bigotry at all. At the absolute worst, I would lay ignorance at their feet and poking fun, which people need to grow a thicker skin about if they get their feathers in a ruffle over a pixelated "OGay" bottle in the game. That is a far cry from actual bigots who make concerted efforts to hold malice towards these demographics and attempt to destroy them and their rights as individuals.
As for derailment, that was allowed in that thread. The mods did nothing to keep it on topic.
@Jag85: Either way, my point still stands. Most gaming discussions have nothing to do with politics. They don't here on SW and neither do most gaming discussions over at Era. While there are some politically-driven controversies here and there, you might not even notice them unless you're actively looking for it. I'm a fan of Linneman's videos (mainly his DF Retro stuff), yet I wasn't aware of his Era controversy until this thread. And it's not like he got banned, but he still has his account at Era. I still think you're exaggerating this issue way out of proportion.
Tell that to John. I don't think your point stands at all when you defend the forum for its excellent gaming discussion while belittling or outright ignoring the running off of predominant figures within the industry that afford that type of discussion due to factors that I'm taking issue with.
I'm not blowing it out of proportion, I'm simply aware of it.
@Jag85 said:
@Pedro: I was referring to sexualisation more specifically. Maybe they may have other issues not related to sexualisation, but it's safe to say that most don't care about sexualisation in video games (not including hentai, of course).
Plenty of data has already been provided. We know that in traditional Japanese culture, men and women used to bathe naked together. We know that in the 90s, most Japanese female gamers in an SNK poll expressed a preference for sexualised female characters. We know from the Ipsos poll that most Japanese women today do not care about feminism at all. We know that the backlash against video game sexualisation in the West arose from the feminist movement. And that there has yet to be such a mainstream backlash in Japan as there has been in the West.
Now this is where we interpret the data and make logical deductions from the data. The logical conclusion is that most Japanese female gamers do not care about sexualised depictions of women in video games. Caring about such an issue would entail caring about feminism, which is what led to Western backlash against video game sexualisation in the first place. If most Japanese women don't even care about feminism, why would they care about video game sexualisation? And what makes you think the preferences of Japanese female gamers must have changed since the 90s?
Also, instead of just randomly demanding "data", specify what type of data you're actually referring to. Be more specific.
I am looking for data that explicitly addresses the point you made. You made a very specific point and such specificity requires specific data to validate it. I don't know what Japanese gamers male or female prefer or not. You are expressing that specifically, female Japanese gamers don't care about sexualization of women in games. I need something to validate such a claim. Referencing the 90s and comparing it to feminism in the west within the last 3 or more years is not equivalent comparison. I can't make a statement that most females in the west are not in favor of sexualized female characters because I simply don't have any data to validate that claim.
This general query would be an interesting pursuit on both sides. I am very interested in what a 1000 sample size of females gamers take are on sexualization of females in the US, UK, Japan and several other countries. I might just make that a research project for my tenure. 😎
I personally believe that Gamespot is one of the better places to go in regards to gaming forums. A lot of forums that I’ve been around are not as well layed out as this one. Although I’m one of the older gamers just recently getting back on the scene after being with out a console other than a Pc the last few years and now have taken on the Switch Lite. I think gamespot will slowly recover although it does not seem like to be as active as it once was.
@Pedro: Okay, we'll just leave it on that note and end the discussion there, and let the thread get back on track. Although this could be an interesting topic of discussion over at OT.
@MirkoS77 said:
@Jag85: Either way, my point still stands. Most gaming discussions have nothing to do with politics. They don't here on SW and neither do most gaming discussions over at Era. While there are some politically-driven controversies here and there, you might not even notice them unless you're actively looking for it. I'm a fan of Linneman's videos (mainly his DF Retro stuff), yet I wasn't aware of his Era controversy until this thread. And it's not like he got banned, but he still has his account at Era. I still think you're exaggerating this issue way out of proportion.
Tell that to John. I don't think your point stands at all when you defend the forum for its excellent gaming discussion while belittling or outright ignoring the running off of predominant figures within the industry that afford that type of discussion due to factors that I'm taking issue with.
I'm not blowing it out of proportion, I'm simply aware of it.
I didn't say Era has excellent gaming discussions, but that it generally has very good gaming discussions. Personally, I think GameFAQs and Reddit are generally better in that regard. However, the advantage Era has is that it has a lot of industry insiders there and it's where the latest information leaks usually happen.
It seems to me that Era is basically trying to enforce strict workplace rules. A lot of big users there are industry professionals who work in tech industry environments, which typically tend to have zero-tolerance policies, and they're trying to enforce them at Era. Saying anything that could be perceived as bigotry could get you fired. When you try to enforce these strict zero-tolerance workplace rules in a gaming forum, ResetEra (and the old NeoGAF) is what you end up with.
BTW, I'm not trying to defend Era's occasionally shitty behaviour. My point is that it's not as frequent as you're making it out to be. Era sometimes gets outraged over a controversy, then they'll eventually move onto another controversy to get outraged about. Pretty sure John will be back after it eventually dies down.
Deactivated already lol.
He has seen enough
@briguyb13: Sorry to hear that you were banned, it must be very frustrating. I was banned on Gamespot once, and I felt pretty sad about it.
That said, I can understand why people would get upset at someone saying a character is not sexualized. That doesn't seem like something that would be up to debate. I doubt anyone would get banned for saying a character was not transexual, unless it was and they were just trolling.
That said, I don't think someone should be banned for doing stuff like that, but I can understand why if it lowers the quality of discussion (for example, compare it to the current NeoGAF, where the reading level and depth of discussion of the threads have dropped so dramatically that it's not even fun to read anymore). People getting banned just causes people to go on other forums and create excuses and stories about the forum instead of getting better, and that is Era's own fault.
@MirkoS77: Bigotry isn't cool, man. And you keep saying Ion Fury is hated on the forum because of some pixelated bottle in the game, but the reason was because of the trashy and nasty stuff the devs were saying on the official Discord server for the game.
I'm sure their hate would seem illogical to you if it really was about some bottle (maybe that's how it has been explained to you by some other place?), and not about a serious bigoted thing that the developers themselves apologized for.
Another one bites the dust. 😅
How deactivated is this forum?
@Willy105: The character in question was an Atelier character. I said she wasn't sexualized, because she wasn't being sexualized. The moderator disagreed with me and I received a moderation for it.
There's no justification for that kind of abuse of power.
@briguyb13 said:
@Willy105: The character in question was an Atelier character. I said she wasn't sexualized, because she wasn't being sexualized. The moderator disagreed with me and I received a moderation for it.
There's no justification for that kind of abuse of power.
I don't play Atelier games, but which Atelier character was this? Maybe I'd have a better idea if I could look up what she looks like.
It sounds similar to the controversy surrounding Cindy in Final Fantasy XV. Square Enix was accused of sexualizing Cindy, and some Square Enix staff responded that they were confused and didn't see her as sexualized. It seems like there are cultural differences at play here, with Westerners and Japanese having different ideas about what constitutes sexualization.
For what it's worth, I once got a warning (though not banned) in a ResetEra thread about sexualization in Japanese games. Since then, I've avoided discussing that topic on Era.
@Jag85 said:
@briguyb13 said:
@Willy105: The character in question was an Atelier character. I said she wasn't sexualized, because she wasn't being sexualized. The moderator disagreed with me and I received a moderation for it.
There's no justification for that kind of abuse of power.
I don't play Atelier games, but which Atelier character was this? Maybe I'd have a better idea if I could look up what she looks like.
It sounds similar to the controversy surrounding Cindy in Final Fantasy XV. Square Enix was accused of sexualizing Cindy, and some Square Enix staff responded that they were confused and didn't see her as sexualized. It seems like there are cultural differences at play here, with Westerners and Japanese having different ideas about what constitutes sexualization.
For what it's worth, I once got a warning (though not banned) in a ResetEra thread about sexualization in Japanese games. Since then, I've avoided discussing that topic on Era.
Ryza. They were so upset about the way she was dressed. You could probably argue that her clothing could be interpreted that way, but the games themselves have never sexualized the girls in them, as far as I know.
I was banned a year or so ago, so I haven't seen what's going on over there lately, but they do pretty much demonize most Japanese games while letting Western games have a free pass to do anything.
Kind of ironic since a former member exposed some of the Era regulars and their private discord channel for openly discussing lolicons and other questionable behaviors. Even one of their mods was shown to have a twitter page dedicated to that stuff. The fellow who always discusses sales forecasts on twitter is also a mod there, zhugex, was also part of that group.
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/resetera-and-the-pedo-problem-updates.1487380/
@Willy105 said:
@MirkoS77: Bigotry isn't cool, man. And you keep saying Ion Fury is hated on the forum because of some pixelated bottle in the game, but the reason was because of the trashy and nasty stuff the devs were saying on the official Discord server for the game.
I'm sure their hate would seem illogical to you if it really was about some bottle (maybe that's how it has been explained to you by some other place?), and not about a serious bigoted thing that the developers themselves apologized for.
It's a variance of opinions. Do I agree with them? No, many of those comments are ignorant and some disgusting (though I do agree children should in no way, shape, or form be transitioned before they finish puberty and reach sexual maturity).
But the human element isn't even allowed for on Era. Yes, people are ignorant. Yes, they make fun of each other in our differences, sometimes giving offense. Yes, in group conversations (especially given the anonymity of the Internet) often people say or laugh at things they may not subscribe to simply to fit in and shoot the shit. And yes, maybe some of the things stated actually hold a semblance of truth, only to be construed as bigoted due to an unnecessarily terse, coarse, and vague manner of approach and articulation.
I think before someone is labeled a bigot (and action's taken against them and their company for it), these factors need to be taken into consideration that give the appearance of it. That's what I object to with Era, there is very little accommodation for nuance or elaboration on what may at first glance appear intolerant. I'm not saying those in the Discord aren't bigots, it very well may be, I only take issue with leaping to foregone conclusions on such tenuous, one-off grounds and the merest appearance of improprieties.
@briguyb13 said:
@Jag85 said:
@briguyb13 said:
@Willy105: The character in question was an Atelier character. I said she wasn't sexualized, because she wasn't being sexualized. The moderator disagreed with me and I received a moderation for it.
There's no justification for that kind of abuse of power.
I don't play Atelier games, but which Atelier character was this? Maybe I'd have a better idea if I could look up what she looks like.
It sounds similar to the controversy surrounding Cindy in Final Fantasy XV. Square Enix was accused of sexualizing Cindy, and some Square Enix staff responded that they were confused and didn't see her as sexualized. It seems like there are cultural differences at play here, with Westerners and Japanese having different ideas about what constitutes sexualization.
For what it's worth, I once got a warning (though not banned) in a ResetEra thread about sexualization in Japanese games. Since then, I've avoided discussing that topic on Era.
Ryza. They were so upset about the way she was dressed. You could probably argue that her clothing could be interpreted that way, but the games themselves have never sexualized the girls in them, as far as I know.
I was banned a year or so ago, so I haven't seen what's going on over there lately, but they do pretty much demonize most Japanese games while letting Western games have a free pass to do anything.
Kind of ironic since a former member exposed some of the Era regulars and their private discord channel for openly discussing lolicons and other questionable behaviors. Even one of their mods was shown to have a twitter page dedicated to that stuff. The fellow who always discusses sales forecasts on twitter is also a mod there, zhugex, was also part of that group.
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/resetera-and-the-pedo-problem-updates.1487380/
I figured it might be her. When I looked up Atelier, the first thing that came up was that girl (I didn't know her name). I guess they think she's "sexualized" simply because she has large T&A?
They do go after Western games as well though. What do you mean about giving Western games a free pass?
The only names I recognize from that group are ZhugeEx (Niko Partners analyst) and Mat Piscatella (NPD analyst). The OP says they weren't involved in any of those lolicon discussions, so not sure what they have to do with it. Is GAF trying call them out as hypocrites for being strict on Era but overlooking these discussions on Discord? And how is that GAF conspiracy thread attacking these industry figures any better than what we were discussing above about Era criticizing Ion Fury and John Linneman?
@Jag85 said:
@Pedro: Okay, we'll just leave it on that note and end the discussion there, and let the thread get back on track. Although this could be an interesting topic of discussion over at OT.
@MirkoS77 said:
@Jag85: Either way, my point still stands. Most gaming discussions have nothing to do with politics. They don't here on SW and neither do most gaming discussions over at Era. While there are some politically-driven controversies here and there, you might not even notice them unless you're actively looking for it. I'm a fan of Linneman's videos (mainly his DF Retro stuff), yet I wasn't aware of his Era controversy until this thread. And it's not like he got banned, but he still has his account at Era. I still think you're exaggerating this issue way out of proportion.
Tell that to John. I don't think your point stands at all when you defend the forum for its excellent gaming discussion while belittling or outright ignoring the running off of predominant figures within the industry that afford that type of discussion due to factors that I'm taking issue with.
I'm not blowing it out of proportion, I'm simply aware of it.
I didn't say Era has excellent gaming discussions, but that it generally has very good gaming discussions. Personally, I think GameFAQs and Reddit are generally better in that regard. However, the advantage Era has is that it has a lot of industry insiders there and it's where the latest information leaks usually happen.
It seems to me that Era is basically trying to enforce strict workplace rules. A lot of big users there are industry professionals who work in tech industry environments, which typically tend to have zero-tolerance policies, and they're trying to enforce them at Era. Saying anything that could be perceived as bigotry could get you fired. When you try to enforce these strict zero-tolerance workplace rules in a gaming forum, ResetEra (and the old NeoGAF) is what you end up with.
BTW, I'm not trying to defend Era's occasionally shitty behaviour. My point is that it's not as frequent as you're making it out to be. Era sometimes gets outraged over a controversy, then they'll eventually move onto another controversy to get outraged about. Pretty sure John will be back after it eventually dies down.
While that sounds plausible, they are creating anything but a safe place to talk about things. Especially when your work is connected to an account it would be risky to interact with that forum. They have doxxed several people and cost some people their jobs.
While I believe that all people inherently have good intentions, some of us are more lost in the complex web of co-existence than others. When they are so lost that they intentionally head in the wrong direction and hurt others without helping the state of it all we call them bad people. There's a lot of bad people running Era. I don't know if they enjoy hurting people or if it's something else, like bad presumptions that drive them. But if their goal is to create a safe work environment then they are taking quite the detour on our web to get there. It will take them a long time to better themselves.
@Jag85 said:
They do go after Western games as well though. What do you mean about giving Western games a free pass?
Like the Witcher games for instance, Geralt is a womanizer in the game, demanding sex for favors and such, cheating on Yennefer. The sex is explicit and the whole universe treats women as sex objects, but I've never seen a thread on era condemning the game.
Lots of other Western titles do that kind of thing, just like their Japanese counter parts, yet they're always going after the latter over there. Much like how Steam treats games in general.
@briguyb13: I'm not surprised about The Witcher 3. That game gets a free pass for everything. Especially its weak gameplay. Seems like having a good story is enough to make gamers today ignore the gameplay flaws.
But yeah, there's definitely double-standards. Western games that are sexually explicit don't face anywhere near as much criticism as Japanese games that could be considered mildly suggestive as best. That shit don't make no sense.
I get the feeling that many of the folks always complaining about "sexualisation" in Japanese games are probably closet hentai fans, so they can't help looking at anime-style characters as "sexualized" even if they're not intended to be. It would be interesting to hear what ordinary Japanese people think, whether or not they view these same characters as "sexualized".
@briguyb13: I'm all for trashing Era's actual bad attributes, but I wouldn't use anything said on GAF of all places to be reliable for the most obvious of reasons. Remember, NeoGAF actually did have a pedophile mod in it years ago under Evilore, so a conspiracy thread on a forum filled with people banned from Era seems rather sketchy.
It reminds me of the System Wars offshoot forum that was made a decade or two ago from people who were banned from this forum. And that places was full of actually reprehensible stuff.
@Willy105 said:
@briguyb13: I'm all for trashing Era's actual bad attributes, but I wouldn't use anything said on GAF of all places to be reliable for the most obvious of reasons. Remember, NeoGAF actually did have a pedophile mod in it years ago under Evilore, so a conspiracy thread on a forum filled with people banned from Era seems rather sketchy.
It reminds me of the System Wars offshoot forum that was made a decade or two ago from people who were banned from this forum. And that places was full of actually reprehensible stuff.
I get what you're saying, but at the same time it seems like you're hand waiving all that evidence provided. You do realize that a very large portion of era's community has once or still is a member at neo, don't you?
Face it, both sides of those fences have extreme nut jobs within. Given the stuff I've seen, no one could ever convince me that era is a decent place to post in. Same goes for neo as well.
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