How can one game be so good and so bad at the same time?

Five internet points and a cookie for anyone who managed to guess which game I was talking about before they even entered the thread...

Okay, it's been two months since the game released, which means the honeymoon period is now over. It's been one month since I've been playing the game, which means I've had enough time to go through it exhaustively. And you know what I realized? Skyward Sword is maddening. It's a game riddled with contradictions. It's a title that displays brilliance that can put the best of the best to absolute and utter shame, a game so good and so progressive that it hints at the series' past, when every Zelda game used to be a trendsetter. And simultaneously, Skyward Sword is a game of baby steps, a regressive game desperately clinging to archaic conventions that would have been out of place ten years ago, and certainly have no place being in a modern, AAA blockbuster game like this one.

It is a game that I love beyond measure, and loathe and have nothing but contempt for. A game that I respect for being forward thinking, but hate for being so reluctant to take strides forward. It manages to move Zelda into modernity- but only just.

You know, if I continue this way, I'll only keep on rambling, and I'll end up making about as much sense as Skyward Sword did. So, here's a list of the pros and the cons, the reason why I adore and loathe Skyward Sword so much.

THE PROS

• Excellent level design. Seriously, from the first dungeon itself, Skyward Sword exhibits the best level design in the series. Until now, A Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess have been regarded as the series hallmarks for outstanding level design. Skyward Sword spanks every single one of them, and puts them to shame. Its first dungeons are on par with the later dungeons in all three games, and by the end, Skyward Sword has some of the most mind bogglingly beautiful and intricate level designs ever. The dungeons in this game are masterpieces, and in an era of linear corridor shooters, they stand out as the series' (and therefore the industry's) best.
• Excellent characterization. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask and The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker have been held in high esteem for their incredible characterization that makes you care about the world you are in and the people that inhabit it.Skyward Sword joins their ranks, with some of the best characterization in the series.
  Now, let's be clear here. Skyward Sword does not treat all its characters equal. Some of them, like Groose, Ghirahim and most of all Zelda, have been crafted so lovingly that you'll feel a deep sense of connection to them all when all is said and done. On the other hand, most of the other characters are unidimensional caricatures, and just exist to serve Link's progression.
• The graphics, music and the presentation. Skyward Sword is a beautiful game. The artstyIe is breathtaking, and the game evokes The Wind Waker, which might just be one of the most beautiful games of all time. The music in the game is similarly beautiful. The game features some of the strongest and best, most memorable tracks of the series, and in a series renowned for its music, that is a big deal. Ballad of the Goddess, Romance, Staff Roll, Skyloft... all of these are songs that will stay with you for a very, very long time. The fact that the game features some of the best writing in the series only helps.
  Together, these two elements come together to create a Zelda game that is almost uncharacteristically cinematic, the most cinematic game in the series. For all of Twilight Princess's mainstream trappings, it was outdone in this very crucial regard by Skyward Sword, the unlikeliest of usurpers.
• The story is best in the series. Especially for series fans, Skyward Sword comes together beautifully in the end, and I contest that there was a singke Zelda fan unmoved at the end as everything falls into place and you finally realize that this is the culmination of twenty five years of game epics. It might not be a Bioshock or an Uncharted, but Skyward Sword's story was great.
• The controls were great... when they worked. I'm currently playing The Wind Waker again, after Skyward Sword It's impossible to adjust to it, no matter what. I'm into the second dungeon, and I've flung my controller three times across already, as I attempted to make Link swing his sword by slashing the controller. There is something naturally intuitive about Skyward Sword's motion controls, which makes it impossible to go back to a regular gamepad for a Zelda game. Skyward Sword might have spoiled me permanently.

THE CONS:

• Awful world design: For a game with level design as great as Skyward Sword's, it sure sucks at crafting a game world. Fragmented, splintered, disjointed, lacking any sort of cohesion, SKyward Sword lacks an overworld and forces upon the player a linear progression that takes away any and all sense of freedom that every Zelda title has afforded so far. Simply put, you go where the game wants you to go, and nowhere else... and if the game wants you to revisit an old location, tough luck if you don't like it, because you don't have a choice. No overworld means that the sense of scale and scope, that feeling of adventure, is cut down immeasurably, a fact that is furthered by more baffling esign choices such as there being only one true town in the game, there being no day and night system, and more.
• Broken pacing: It takes four hours and forty five minutes to enter the first dungeon in Skyward Sword, assuming you have not strayed from the path to do some questiing and adventuring of your own (not that you can, the game won't let you). Within those first five hours, the game forces endless tutorials upon you, sets the stage up for its story, builds its characters... and then proceeds to repeat all of that over the next four hours...
  Seriously, Skyward Sword's first five hours are nothing but the same tutorial and set up sections repeated five times. You'll be taught to fly, and then thrust into a race to ensure you know how to fly. You'll be forced to learn the dowsing ability, and then be sent on three dowsing quests, not counting the main dowsing quest you're on anyway, to ensure you know how to do that. You'll be told about Skyloft, it's history, its citizens, Zelda, and your relation to all of them. And then you'll be told again. And again. And again. And again. Stop it already. I get it, I'm not dyslexic, and I have an attention span of more than five seconds, and excellent retention. Stop insulting my intelligence.
• Awful graphics and bland music: For as good as the artstyIe is, on a technical level, the game's visuals suffer. The game is ambitious, but it is a victim of the system it is on. Jagged ends and blurry textures abound, and the game can look lovingly beautiful and eye bleedingly bad both at the same time, characterizing the overall dichotomy that permeates the entire game.
  Oh, and remember how I said the music is the best in the series? Skyward Sword also holds the distinction for having some of the blandest tracks in the series. WTF, Nintendo?
• Tutorials: The first time I find a Jelly Blob, the game told me that I found a Jelly Blob, and then proceeded to describe it in excruciating detail. It then proceeded to open my menu screen for me, and show me exactly where I could find it in my inventory. I sat there, braced. Every Zelda game has awful first time tutorials, but they go away with time.
  Well, except for in Skyward Sword. I quit the game, and next time I played, I found another Jelly Blob. And then the game went through the exact same process. Again.
  Every time I quit the game and restarted, it would do this. Every. Single. Time.
  And this isn't even mentioning Fi, who probably thinks that I'm a five year old with an attention deficit, going by how she takes it upon herself to explain that a locked door is in fact, locked and cannot be opened without a key every time I approach a locked door. Yeah, no sh*t Sherlock. How about actually helping me when I'm confronted by this weird ass monster I can't for the life of me figure out how to defeat? No, then you just sit there and watch stoically, possibly laughing at my misery in your head, you sadistiv, sadistiv robotic thing.
• THE CONTROLS SUCK: This cannot be stressed enough. I love Skyward Sword's swordfighting controls. They nailed them. I can never play a Zelda game if I can't swing my sword again (or I think I can't, I know I will anyway). But damn it, the controls suck for everything else, and they feel tacked on and redundant.
  For instance, flying. What in the world had Nintendo's designers been on when they came up with the controls for flying? Or swimming? Seriously? I mean WTF? And don't even get me with the fact that you literally have to control Link's fall every time he dives. Or the fact that you have to flail the Wiimote wildly to jump up vines. Or to throw or roll a bomb or a projectile. Or to shake free of webs. Or to balance yourself on a tightrope.
  I could go on. Point is, the controls suck. Beyond swordfighting, where they shine, there is nothing in this game that motion controls were required for.
  

Skyward Sword is a game of dichotomies. It's a game that's progressive and regressive at the same time. It's a game that finally drags Zelda screaming, crying, clawing and scratching, into the 21st century, but a game that prides itself on its past. As a celebration of the 25th anniversary for the series, Skyward Sword is the best and worst thing Nintendo could have done.

What about you guys? Did you have a similar experience when you played this mindf*ck of a masterpiece?

I'm confused.. at some of the points in your post.

I disagree about the controls. And I agree when you said the visuals were good..but then disagree when you sad they're bad?

I thought the music was great I agree... then disagree about it being blandest in the series..?

Clarifcation please? Or am I just stupid cuz I'm ridiculously tired.

I'm confused.. at some of the points in your post.

I disagree about the controls. And I agree when you said the visuals were good..but then disagree when you sad they're bad?

I thought the music was great I agree... then disagree about it being blandest in the series..?

Clarifcation please? Or am I just stupid cuz I'm ridiculously tired.

MLBknights58

Oh God, that was a long read. Skyward Sword is a great game, dude. Deal with it.RulerofGondor

[QUOTE="RulerofGondor"]Oh God, that was a long read. Skyward Sword is a great game, dude. Deal with it.zarshack

• Broken pacing: It takes four hours and forty five minutes to enter the first dungeon in Skyward Sword, assuming you have not strayed from the path to do some questiing and adventuring of your own (not that you can, the game won't let you). Within those first five hours, the game forces endless tutorials upon you, sets the stage up for its story, builds its characters... and then proceeds to repeat all of that over the next four hours...
  Seriously, Skyward Sword's first five hours are nothing but the same tutorial and set up sections repeated five times.

You'll be taught to fly, and then thrust into a race to ensure you know how to fly. You'll be forced to learn the dowsing ability, and then be sent on three dowsing quests, not counting the main dowsing quest you're on anyway, to ensure you know how to do that. You'll be told about Skyloft, it's history, its citizens, Zelda, and your relation to all of them. And then you'll be told again. And again. And again. And again. Stop it already. I get it, I'm not dyslexic, and I have an attention span of more than five seconds, and excellent retention. Stop insulting my intelligence.

charizard1605

This is 90% of the reason I refuse to play Zelda anymore and won't touch SS. I'd rent it but I need Motion+ and refuse to pay for it for one game that in all likelyhood I won't get past the infant stage. Until Nintendo stops treating people like they're idiots I'll not bother.

As for my own impressions of the game while i haven't finished the game (upto the 4th dungeon). I agree with all the points you made, i found the pacing horrible. The game is practically puzzle after puzzle after puzzle and it can get tedious and suffocating.

i thought u speak about fallout 3

The broken pacing ruined the game for me.

I'm one of those people who will force myself through a game. If I start a game and get a few hours in, even if I'm not enjoying it very much, I force myself to finish it. With Skyward Sword, and Twilight Princess for that matter, I couldn't even force myself to get through the games. I even got the Collector's Edition strategy guides for both games. It's not that the games are difficult, the game just assumes that I'm a functional vegetable, and forces me through the most excruciating tutorials I've ever come across in gaming. It just makes me angry playing both of those games, I want to throw my Wii out the window. I loved Majora's Mask, Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker and Link to the Past, along with the NES titles. I never played the handheld games, but I'm sure I would like those as well. Those games had much better pacing and didn't treat you like a functional vegetable.

You have more willpower than I do, Charizard. I wish I could make it through the game and give a real review on it, but I don't think that is ever going to happen. I would rather be waterboarded.

[QUOTE="MLBknights58"]

I'm confused.. at some of the points in your post.

I disagree about the controls. And I agree when you said the visuals were good..but then disagree when you sad they're bad?

I thought the music was great I agree... then disagree about it being blandest in the series..?

Clarifcation please? Or am I just stupid cuz I'm ridiculously tired.

charizard1605

Ghirahim > Zant/Agahim.

Demise > Ganon/dorf.

:P

Five internet points and a cookie for anyone who managed to guess which game I was talking about before they even entered the thread...

• Simply put, you go where the game wants you to go, and nowhere else... and if the game wants you to revisit an old location, tough luck if you don't like it, because you don't have a choice.

charizard1605

What in the f*ck are you even talking about? This isn't even true You aren't always forced to go to certain place. If anything most the Time I'm not.

There have been times Ihave layed where I've just focused on doing side quests in skyloft as opposed to doing the main quest. or maybe I decided to go back down to lanyru or Faron woods to get materials to upgrade my items, or dowse and find goddess cubes later in the game. It's absurd how much people overblow the linearity of Skywards Sword. :?

• THE CONTROLS SUCK: This cannot be stressed enough. I love Skyward Sword's swordfighting controls. They nailed them. I can never play a Zelda game if I can't swing my sword again (or I think I can't, I know I will anyway). But damn it, the controls suck for everything else, and they feel tacked on and redundant.
  For instance, flying. What in the world had Nintendo's designers been on when they came up with the controls for flying? Or swimming? Seriously? I mean WTF? And don't even get me with the fact that you literally have to control Link's fall every time he dives. Or the fact that you have to flail the Wiimote wildly to jump up vines. Or to throw or roll a bomb or a projectile. Or to shake free of webs. Or to balance yourself on a tightrope.
  I could go on. Point is, the controls suck. Beyond swordfighting, where they shine, there is nothing in this game that motion controls were required for.
  

charizard1605

The controls sucked? hardly. they definitely weren't perfect but they didn't suck. Honestly it just sounds like you suck at controlling the game.

It didn't take long for me to get used to flying the bird at all, I actually find it pretty easy to do, the swimming controls aren't perfect but I can manage them alright.

And what was so bad about having to flail the wiimote when climbing vines? It's perfectly reponsinve, it doesn;t really require that much energy or effort (believe me, I am allazy guy and I had no issues with flailing the wii-mote to climb vines), that plus it'snot like you HAVE to flail the wii-mote to climb the vines, it's just an optional maneuver if you want to climb quicker. And complaining about shaking free from webs wasn't that big an issue,you just sound really lazy. And come on, balancing on tight ropes? using the sailcloth to land? Those were hardly issues at all, you're is just getting nitpicky :?. I'll give you bomb-rolling though, that truly was a pain in the ass, and unlike everything else you mentioned about the controls, it actually kinda irked me.

All the other cons you mentioned weren't that big a deal to me and were far outweighed by the pros.

Overall Skyward Sword is a damn great game and like it as much as other 3D Zeldas.

The time it takes from start until you enter the first dungeon of the game is just an arbitrary comparison.

The first two hours is debatable, I'll give you that. It's alot of text/tutorial to take in but I think it's acceptable due to a large number of new mechanics introduced. They could have done a better job and cut some fat, but in the end I was ok with it simply because the cutscenes and character interaction was fantastic during this tutorial stage.

However the two hours it takes for one to enter the first dungeon after reaching Faron Woods, that's not a boring/slow moment or whatever. Those who said "oooh come OON when is the first dungeon already" are doing it wrong. Challenges and puzzles that used to be only found in dungeons are now spread outside. So basically, there are actually 7+7 dungeons in this game, if you treat each section between dungens as a dungeon itself. Exploring Faron Woods for the first time was one of my favorite moments in gaming.

Most of your complaints seem to stem from the fact the Wii is an awful console, its severely underpowered and the button lay out on the controller and nunchuck are uncomfortable and impractical. Such a shame to see some amazing games held back by poor hardware but that is the route Nintendo took this gen.

I haven't actually played SS yet and I don't know when I will because I don't have a motion+ enabled controller :( I may just wait and borrow it later along with a controller because I don't want to spend out any more on the wii.

I knew it was Skyward Sword ;)

But yeah, I agree, there are many things the game does so well, but other really annoying stuff like the tutorials and the jelly blob thing you mentioned. I loved the game (8.5), but damn. Some parts needed improvement.

With that said, I disagree on the story. The ending made me cringe and rage inside. I am still trying to undo it in my mind. I will not talk about Uncharted or Bioshock though, because that would go offtopic.

skyflop sword is mediocre at best, sooo overrated polFdrawykS

[QUOTE="polFdrawykS"]skyflop sword is mediocre at best, sooo overrated simomate

Oh God, that was a long read. Skyward Sword is a great game, dude. Deal with it.RulerofGondor

Hmmm I think your post is 50/50 here :P. I actually disagree with a good few things. Saying that the beginning dungeons are as good as the later dungeons in TP and such is just not true. I disagree about the music, though it has good music no doubt. I didn't have many issues with flying (swimming was annoying). worst of all is how you say the characterization is the best. I think it is possibly the worst (in 3D ones). Fi is annoying, Groose is SUPER lame (he is not funny or entertaining), and as you said, characters are not all fleshed out as the prime few. I think Girahim is awesome. He is easily the best character in the game.

Not the best Zelda nor the best Wii game.
Nor is it 10/10 material.

Fooled me. I thought you were referring to Skyrim!

So how is Godrim treating you chaz? Still loving it?foxhound_fox

Indeed, I feel that way. But the controls that I hate the most that you didn't mention was the ****ing harp. No instrument in any of the 3D Zelda game has ever given me so much frustration. SS is definitely a love it/hate it game. I still don't know whether like this or Wind Waker more.

Indeed, I feel that way. But the controls that I hate the most that you didn't mention was the ****ing harp. No instrument in any of the 3D Zelda game has ever given me so much frustration. I still don't know whether like this or Wind Waker more.

magiciandude

The harp is pretty annoying.

I still can't seem to do a prefect job for that mini-game at that pumpkin lodge no matter how well I follow the audience's waving. :/

no..

Not a good advertisment for the Wii is it.tomarlyn

Too Long; Didn't Read

I have to agree that the pacing of skyward is mostly inconsistent. At it's peak it feels like the best in the series, and at it's lowest it feels like one of the worst zeldas. Luckily the good outweighs the bad for the most part.

For what nintendo was setting out to do (shaking up the zelda formula) they got it partially right. Next time they just have to work on the execution.

no..

KBFloYd

Superb counter-argument. Anyway, I agree with TC. The game's best moments are better than any other game in the franchise, but there are plenty of times where it feels like the most uneven, poorly-designed 3D Zelda yet. I haven't played a game as uneven as SS in a long time.

Indeed, I feel that way. But the controls that I hate the most that you didn't mention was the ****ing harp. No instrument in any of the 3D Zelda game has ever given me so much frustration. SS is definitely a love it/hate it game. I still don't know whether like this or Wind Waker more.

magiciandude

You mean how it basically plays itself and the way you play different songs is by playing them the same each time? It could have been so good with WM+ :(.

Too Long; Didn't Read

FashionFreak

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]So how is Godrim treating you chaz? Still loving it?charizard1605

[QUOTE="charizard1605"][QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]So how is Godrim treating you chaz? Still loving it?DarkLink77

I cannot tell if he is being serious or not, but it is a great game with many amazing aspects. To say it is perfect is a complete lie though.

Broken pacing: It takes four hours and forty five minutes to enter the first dungeon in Skyward Sword, assuming you have not strayed from the path to do some questiing and adventuring of your own (not that you can, the game won't let you). Within those first five hours, the game forces endless tutorials upon you, sets the stage up for its story, builds its characters... and then proceeds to repeat all of that over the next four hours...Seriously, Skyward Sword's first five hours are nothing but the same tutorial and set up sections repeated five times. You'll be taught to fly, and then thrust into a race to ensure you know how to fly. You'll be forced to learn the dowsing ability, and then be sent on three dowsing quests, not counting the main dowsing quest you're on anyway, to ensure you know how to do that. You'll be told about Skyloft, it's history, its citizens, Zelda, and your relation to all of them. And then you'll be told again. And again. And again. And again. Stop it already. I get it, I'm not dyslexic, and I have an attention span of more than five seconds, and excellent retention. Stop insulting my intelligence.charizard1605

There is simply too much in this post that I disagree with in order to be able to touch on everything, or even most things so I ;ll just focus on this one little part. When did Zelda became a series about nothing about dungeons? When did the question "When will I get to the next temple?" become the determining factor for quality pacing in Zelda? Those 5 hours played out brilliantly, like a crescendo, slowly building up the plot and gameplay. In the first hour you get the first introduction to world and controls, in the second your first taste of the adventuring and swordplay. In the third you are introduced to the world below, the true heart of the adventure. In the fourth you begin the exploration of this new land, completing puzzles and battling monsters. And then finally in the fifth you reach the first dungeon. How are those first few hours any less legitimate than the ones spent in the dungeon?

I love Skyward Sword and it'sa 10 in my book so it's all good. I don't base my opinion of one's review or view.