I do not support The Saboteur or Wolfenstein......

[QUOTE="Animal-Mother"][QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]

Hitler was quite an interesting person. And I actually agreed with a lot of his world views. Not everything the man said or did was crazy out there, but we only remember what we're forced to remember. Like the people who are forced to fight for "freedom", Hitler was trained to become an animal; a soulless animal.

Shafftehr

[QUOTE="Shafftehr"]

[QUOTE="Animal-Mother"] I'm not even gonna comment. I do wanna read Mein Kampf and the communist maifesto though for educational purposesAnimal-Mother

[QUOTE="Animal-Mother"][QUOTE="Shafftehr"] Read them both and take them for what they're worth (Marx was actually one of the most astute readers of the economic of his time, perhaps ever). But, concerning your non-comment, open your mind a little bit. Some of the greatest advances towards what we consider a liberal, free thinking society were things instituted by tyrants in tyrannies. Many of Nazi German's social systems were ahead of their time, as were some of that regime's ideas concerning infrastructure. You'd be better to learn from history than "not comment" and ignore it because you ignorantly think they were absolute evil with *nothing* good to be taken from what they were... There are a lot of things (bad AND good) societies could learn from Germany from that period - the bad has just been forefronted so much that most people don't realize that there were actually some things going on that other nations were years, decades away from doing to that degree and as well... Labour laws, social security, worker compensation...

Shafftehr

TC during World War 2 the nazi's WERE evil. They weren't just the army for germany. They were under direction of Hitler and anything they did was for that cause. Anybody who joined the nazi cause had a choice. I'm sure hitler and the SS forced people to join, but they could've joined the resistance/rebellion against the nazi's instead of agreeing to throw babies and children into a furnace. The Germany Military =/= Nazi's. Nazi's and the SS were evil, period, and whoever joined them because they were scared to lose their lives were cowards.GiantMuffin

All nazis were evil. Not all germans were nazis. That's teh difference. From himmler to the angel of death to hitler all were evil and followed teh ideals of hitler to the end.

Most Nazis are dead, and the ones who arn't should be. There isn't really anyone left to defend or attack so it isn't a huge problem, as long as you don't take the messages in the gametoo seriously. Nothing is ever as simple as good or evil, and it would be a real stretch to call everyone who called themselves a Nazi "evil". It would be an even greater generalisation to call every German who served under the Nazis in WW2 "evil". Mostvideo games tend to take an incredidbly two dimensional approach to "good" and "evil". Naturally anything that acts as an opponent to theplayer automatically becomes evil.This is the case with Nazi's. Still, they could be more tactful about it. The scrunched up uglyfaces of the Germans in WW2 games gets on your nerves after a while. I'm pretty sure the general male population of Germany wasn't that ugly at the time. These digital avatars represent millions of people who did live at one point. I find that anunessecary insult to the dead. I find the massive glorification of everyone else unessecary also. It would be nice to have a WW2 game come along that actually told it like it was, and not as a war represented as Black vs White. The original CoD did have one section that achieved this at the start of the Russian campagin. Awesome level. Unfortunatly they didn't build on that.

[QUOTE="GiantMuffin"]TC during World War 2 the nazi's WERE evil. They weren't just the army for germany. They were under direction of Hitler and anything they did was for that cause. Anybody who joined the nazi cause had a choice. I'm sure hitler and the SS forced people to join, but they could've joined the resistance/rebellion against the nazi's instead of agreeing to throw babies and children into a furnace. The Germany Military =/= Nazi's. Nazi's and the SS were evil, period, and whoever joined them because they were scared to lose their lives were cowards.DarkGamer007

[QUOTE="DarkGamer007"]

[QUOTE="GiantMuffin"]TC during World War 2 the nazi's WERE evil. They weren't just the army for germany. They were under direction of Hitler and anything they did was for that cause. Anybody who joined the nazi cause had a choice. I'm sure hitler and the SS forced people to join, but they could've joined the resistance/rebellion against the nazi's instead of agreeing to throw babies and children into a furnace. The Germany Military =/= Nazi's. Nazi's and the SS were evil, period, and whoever joined them because they were scared to lose their lives were cowards.GiantMuffin

You are looking at it the wrong way. What about your children? Your family? Are you willing to condemn to death for another?

You can't call all germans Nazis. All nazis were germans, but not all germans were nazis. Take for example, Rommel. He is considered one of the most honorable people to fight in WW2. He refused to do anything to jews, treated prisoners well. Didn't act like a nazi. Yet he fought for the german country.

Most germans didn't realize what the nazis were doing. There were many germans who tried to help jews etc.

The games depict blatant killing of the Nazis as if they were all evil, which, and you can ask any educated historian, is completely false. The nazis were simply the german army they didn't necesarily share the same ideologies of the third reich just like today's troops in Iraq or yesterday's troops in Vietnam didn't agree with the reason they were fighting.

But ohhhh yeahhhh, lets just go kill some Nazis, so fun! They were all evil, the entire nation of germany was apparently "pure" evil, I suppose not one Nazi just wanted to fighting to honor his country?

And before you flame me, just think of the game Stalin vs. Martians, which this site recognized as a full-fledged video game, albeit a bad one, and legitimately reviewed. Sure people complained that it was bad but I didnt hear about anyone complaining about how it glorified Stalin, a dictator which topped Hitler on the genocide number.

sacredtext62

[QUOTE="Animal-Mother"][QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]

I'm not a defender of socialism, communism, or fascism. I am strictly for individual freedom and the capitalist system. Sadly, our nation is moving away from capitalism and quickly turning into an oligarchy. Most of us believe it's been there for quite a while, though. But the destruction of the middle class will soon allow them to gain full control of the system and its people.

BioShockOwnz

Capitalism is what's destroying the middle class...

I'm all for personal freedoms and stuff but a purely capitalistic system is MUCH more devastating to the middle class than socialism or communism(which actually strengthen the middle class). Our nation is moving more towards socialism and is therefore more of a mixed market economy than a plain old capitalist one.

[QUOTE="sacredtext62"]

The games depict blatant killing of the Nazis as if they were all evil, which, and you can ask any educated historian, is completely false. The nazis were simply the german army they didn't necesarily share the same ideologies of the third reich just like today's troops in Iraq or yesterday's troops in Vietnam didn't agree with the reason they were fighting.

But ohhhh yeahhhh, lets just go kill some Nazis, so fun! They were all evil, the entire nation of germany was apparently "pure" evil, I suppose not one Nazi just wanted to fighting to honor his country?

And before you flame me, just think of the game Stalin vs. Martians, which this site recognized as a full-fledged video game, albeit a bad one, and legitimately reviewed. Sure people complained that it was bad but I didnt hear about anyone complaining about how it glorified Stalin, a dictator which topped Hitler on the genocide number.

surrealnumber5

Funny thing is that the real aryans are the persians/indians with the european branch being an offshoot.

I think we all need a slight ethics lesson. I'll just come out and say it: Not all Nazis are evil. Even supposing every Nazi soldier committed some great injustice, they would not necessarily be "evil" per se.

After watching Schindler's List, it's easy to say, "every one of those Nazi scumbags were pure evil", and characterize them not as people, but as Nazis. In other words, it's easy to dehumanize Nazis, and to forget that they were people like you or I. The difference? Circumstance. Yeah, yeah, I know, blaming society is a worn out excuse, so I won't do that, instead, I'll blame the orders, not the people. Given the situation these soldiers were in, defying direct orders would be nigh impossible. Now you're probably thinking you would have been the one rebel, the guy who would have stood up against the system, and rejected it. Stop watching so many movies I say. Following the start of the war crime trials, a psychologist Stanley Milgram set up a little test to conclude whether normal Americans were capable of fighting the man, just saying no to an authority figure, and in a larger sense, learning whether the "good nazi" was a paradoxical concept.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority.Milgram

Essentially, you and I both hold the same potential for evil that any of these infamous Nazi soldiers did, we just got lucky because no one is telling us to kill. Look, I'm no Nazi sympathizer, but if you're willing to shoot Nazis in the face, you should have no problem shooting Americans or British. Also, I have no idea how this post would be offensive, but please don't be offended. :P

Edit: Oh, and just to be clear, I'm speaking specifically about the soldiers here, not the Nazi establishment. I'm wholeheartedly opposed to the Nazi belief system.

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]

[QUOTE="Animal-Mother"]

Capitalism is what's destroying the middle class...

I'm all for personal freedoms and stuff but a purely capitalistic system is MUCH more devastating to the middle class than socialism or communism(which actually strengthen the middle class). Our nation is moving more towards socialism and is therefore more of a mixed market economy than a plain old capitalist one.

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"][QUOTE="sacredtext62"]

The games depict blatant killing of the Nazis as if they were all evil, which, and you can ask any educated historian, is completely false. The nazis were simply the german army they didn't necesarily share the same ideologies of the third reich just like today's troops in Iraq or yesterday's troops in Vietnam didn't agree with the reason they were fighting.

But ohhhh yeahhhh, lets just go kill some Nazis, so fun! They were all evil, the entire nation of germany was apparently "pure" evil, I suppose not one Nazi just wanted to fighting to honor his country?

And before you flame me, just think of the game Stalin vs. Martians, which this site recognized as a full-fledged video game, albeit a bad one, and legitimately reviewed. Sure people complained that it was bad but I didnt hear about anyone complaining about how it glorified Stalin, a dictator which topped Hitler on the genocide number.

shakmaster13

Funny thing is that the real aryans are the persians/indians with the european branch being an offshoot.

wow whats with the big ethical debate the TC is way out of order here, one ITS A GAME YOU ****, two its simple if you were either Adolf Hitler Heinrich Himmler, Rudolf Hess, Hermann Goring, Joseph Goebbels, Joseph Mengele or any Nazi doctor who was part of the death camps or involved in the killing of the disabled, the SS, brown shirts, the soldiers who ran and maintained the death camps then you were the scum of the earth. if you were conscripted and filled with all kinds of propaganda of how you would be making Germany strong again and forced into fighting then i am sure they regret everything they have done and wish it never happened to begin with...

I don't care if some of the Germans became Nazis because they were too scared to rebel.They're still evil for what they did, especially Wolfensteins.SparkyProtocol

Capitalism is what's destroying the middle class...

I'm all for personal freedoms and stuff but a purely capitalistic system is MUCH more devastating to the middle class than socialism or communism(which actually strengthen the middle class). Our nation is moving more towards socialism and is therefore more of a mixed market economy than a plain old capitalist one.shakmaster13

Not true. The capitalist system has worked for many years and has been quite successful. You have the rich, the poor, and the middle class. Sadly, too much government intrusion has led to many middle class families suffering during these hard economic times. What was the catalyst for said economic failures? It was Freddie and Fannie. The government allowed people with bad credit to go ahead and get a loan, etc. Progressives will blame the capitalist system for the poor economy, but the fact is that Barnie Frank, Chris Dodd, and others knew about this, yet they still let it go on. Therefore the government intrusion didn't help, but it actually hurt it, as most of the progressives believe that housing is a right. The progressives tried to get away with lying about the situation in an effort to ditch the capitalist system, yet it was their own failure that led to it. But let's not be fooled, they were well aware of what was going on, as they have had a plan all along to move this country and "fundamentally change America", and it's for the worse. Since the new administration, we've gone further into debt, more jobs have been lost, and the failed foreign policy of the Bush administration has been continued. Nothing has changed, except the power grab by the government to even rip away more freedom from us. The Patriot Act was just the beginning.

Btw, I just pre-ordered Wolfenstein tonight! :)

Are you a fan of Apt Pupil?

Both look pretty lame to me. o_o I really don't get the hype for The Saboteur...looks like crap.killab2oo5

I doubt it'll be crap. A (Good) at the lowest, I'd say.

[QUOTE="Animal-Mother"][QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]

Hitler was quite an interesting person. And I actually agreed with a lot of his world views. Not everything the man said or did was crazy out there, but we only remember what we're forced to remember. Like the people who are forced to fight for "freedom", Hitler was trained to become an animal; a soulless animal.

BioShockOwnz

I'm not a defender of socialism, communism, or fascism. I am strictly for individual freedom and the capitalist system. Sadly, our nation is moving away from capitalism and quickly turning into an oligarchy. Most of us believe it's been there for quite a while, though. But the destruction of the middle class will soon allow them to gain full control of the system and its people.

[QUOTE="killab2oo5"]Both look pretty lame to me. o_o I really don't get the hype for The Saboteur...looks like crap.BioShockOwnz

I doubt it'll be crap. A (Good) at the lowest, I'd say.

[QUOTE="killab2oo5"]Both look pretty lame to me. o_o I really don't get the hype for The Saboteur...looks like crap.BioShockOwnz

I doubt it'll be crap. A (Good) at the lowest, I'd say.

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]

[QUOTE="Animal-Mother"] I'm not even gonna comment. I do wanna read Mein Kampf and the communist maifesto though for educational purposesnchan

I'm not a defender of socialism, communism, or fascism. I am strictly for individual freedom and the capitalist system. Sadly, our nation is moving away from capitalism and quickly turning into an oligarchy. Most of us believe it's been there for quite a while, though. But the destruction of the middle class will soon allow them to gain full control of the system and its people.

Nope, I grew up in a middle class family. I had a good life growing up. We weren't poor. We could afford some luxuries. But we surely weren't rich. And now living on my own, it's the same thing. I'm not rich, but I'm surely not poor. The fact that you think that there is no middle is quite interesting.

Both games are works of fiction... not documentaries. :|

I would love to call you a hypocrite but, BOO you set your profile to private. What ****. That's a laugh :laugh: :lol: I just wanted to see that you've played any WWII game. And only then call you a hypocrite.

I think this game doesn't support killing anyone. You don't kill people in games. They are not even real people. So it does not matter. Please don't confuse the two, like so many "moms" do.

Nazis were evil end of story, sure they were just the army but they supported Hitler making them evil. SAGE_OF_FIRE

End of the story is that you don't know history :)

[QUOTE="SAGE_OF_FIRE"]Nazis were evil end of story, sure they were just the army but they supported Hitler making them evil. AdrianWerner

End of the story is that you don't know history :)

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

[QUOTE="SAGE_OF_FIRE"]Nazis were evil end of story, sure they were just the army but they supported Hitler making them evil. SparkyProtocol

End of the story is that you don't know history :)

Not all nazis were evil, some were just cowards. And second...he's under impression that nazis formed German army. It's common american thing actualy, to be incapable of saying "germans". It's always nazis this, nazis that. I guess it helps when treating them as less than humans

[QUOTE="SparkyProtocol"][QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

End of the story is that you don't know history :)

AdrianWerner

Not all nazis were evil, some were just cowards. And second...he's under impression that nazis formed German army. It's common american thing actualy, to be incapable of saying "germans". It's always nazis this, nazis that. I guess it helps when treating them as less than humans

[QUOTE="SparkyProtocol"][QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

End of the story is that you don't know history :)

AdrianWerner

Not all nazis were evil, some were just cowards. And second...he's under impression that nazis formed German army. It's common american thing actualy, to be incapable of saying "germans". It's always nazis this, nazis that. I guess it helps when treating them as less than humans

Which is ironic in the way that we regard German Soliders and Nazis (German Solider =/= Nazi) asless than humans, which is what the Nazis (minus the genocide part, but you get the point) did to the Jewish, Gypses, Homosexuals, Mentall-Ill, and Handicapped.

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

Nazis are evil.SparkyProtocol

Not all nazis were evil, some were just cowards. And second...he's under impression that nazis formed German army. It's common american thing actualy, to be incapable of saying "germans". It's always nazis this, nazis that. I guess it helps when treating them as less than humans

Which is ironic in the way that we regard German Soliders and Nazis (German Solider =/= Nazi) asless than humans, which is what the Nazis (minus the genocide part, but you get the point) did to the Jewish, Gypses, Homosexuals, Mentall-Ill, and Handicapped.

[QUOTE="SparkyProtocol"][QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

End of the story is that you don't know history :)

AdrianWerner

Not all nazis were evil, some were just cowards. And second...he's under impression that nazis formed German army. It's common american thing actualy, to be incapable of saying "germans". It's always nazis this, nazis that. I guess it helps when treating them as less than humans

This is a pretty interesting convo for OT. American? So are you not implying that all American's think like this? You're just as bad as one who says nazis are all evil.

LOXO7

Its a video game.

A setting can be taken and transformed for video game purposes, as has happened with film and literature.

It isn't a representation of reality, so I wouldn't get so wound up about it.

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

[QUOTE="SparkyProtocol"] Nazis are evil.DarkGamer007

Not all nazis were evil, some were just cowards. And second...he's under impression that nazis formed German army. It's common american thing actualy, to be incapable of saying "germans". It's always nazis this, nazis that. I guess it helps when treating them as less than humans

Which is ironic in the way that we regard German Soliders and Nazis (German Solider =/= Nazi) asless than humans, which is what the Nazis (minus the genocide part, but you get the point) did to the Jewish, Gypses, Homosexuals, Mentall-Ill, and Handicapped.

In terms of generalisations used.

And what's more, not everyone was as closed minded as Animal-Mother with his "Not even going to comment" as if Bioshock's statement was just crazy... Everyone knows that the rest of the world gobbled up fleeing German scientists after the war. What they don't know is that German patents were also taken, along with industrial technologies (everything from beer making tech to cold steel presses) research, documentation and data concerning social plans... You'd be surprised how much the end of WWII allowed for a lot of good things from Germany to spread out and enter the rest of the world world, and be put to good use elsewhere. Small consolation and/or justification for what happened, but there it is.Shafftehr

The wrongs and right of such are datable, however the progression and past - the good and bad are in the history books.

Don't expect much in liberal america racism is the hot button and thats really the only reason people hate hitler cause he tried to kill a race of people, Stalin outdid him in the amount of people killed and ways those people were killed but because his murder squads had a equality policy then thats fine.

But really thats the story of america, If you wanna kill somebody you better make damn sure you kill multiple races or your a racist and hate crimes are wrong.

Don't expect much in liberal america racism is the hot button and thats really the only reason people hate hitler cause he tried to kill a race of people, Stalin outdid him in the amount of people killed and ways those people were killed but because his murder squads had a equality policy then thats fine.

But really thats the story of america, If you wanna kill somebody you better make damn sure you kill multiple races or your a racist and hate crimes are wrong.

WilliamRLBaker

Oh dear. This post is so wrong on so many levels :|.

Killing Nazi's? Killing ones and zero's you mean. This is pretty much a non-argument. It's a game people. There's many games where for instance you kill aliens, but who knows there a lot of nice aliens too. So should that keep us from making any games in which aliens are killed? No it shouldn't.

WW2 was decades ago

Get over it

It's just a game