I don't understand the Nintendo argument "We don't want good graphics"

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DeadEndPanda

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#151 DeadEndPanda
Member since 2008 • 2358 Posts

[QUOTE="DeadEndPanda"]

[QUOTE="Communistsheep"] Nor do i, but i just want it to LOOK good, i mean i don't care how many polygons x game has, but seriously, when your games can be compared to last gen consoles, then you know that something is wrong.hakanakumono

well thats why i love the wii

you cant compare the artisticly amazing games to any game from past nor this genartion.

i do understand that some people love realism, but i dont see the point in it at all.

do people want to act like they are doing it in real life, and therfore want as realistic graphics as possible?

or do they simply lack imagination so they have to get a clear picture of something to know what it is or what it stands for?

i want my games as much as you to look stunning, but we walk diffrent paths.

for me. Okami is the tip of the iceberg, while you would say its crysis

Ookami is first and foremost a PS2 game. It's just one of many games that were highly artistic in the past. Resident Evil 2, Siren, Final Fantasy VIII, Silent Hill 4, Rule of Rose, and Odin Sphere are just a few examples of games with a strong art direction (and a lot of artistic merit).

Realism is not the antethisis of art. That's why there was a strong movement towards realism in the Renaissance era from the unrealistic depictions (that were strongly ifluenced by religion, concepts of power and authority, etc) of the middle ages. Art is not solely limited to cartoons.

The thing is, more powerful graphics capabilities benefit not only games with a realistic art style, but games with an unrealistic art style as well. Ookami wouldn't have been possible on the PS1, N64, or Sega Saturn. The PS2's more powerful hardware allowed it to be the beautiful game that it is known for being. Wii games may look great on the Wii, but they would look better on the HD systems.

this again is just 1 side of the powerfull hardware.

you could argue that lesser powerfull systems make developers think in other directions to make stunning games based on less powerfull hardware.

the wii would have as litle artistic games as the HD consoles if it was as powerfull as them. most developers would go for the "realistic look" insted of think in ways like muramosa or madworld.

there is almost never a clear anwsere to questions like this.

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lonewolf604

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#152 lonewolf604
Member since 2007 • 8748 Posts
yeah nintendo, by "gameplay" they meant shallow tacked on controls? i mean seriously.
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DeadEndPanda

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#153 DeadEndPanda
Member since 2008 • 2358 Posts

yeah nintendo, by "gameplay" they meant shallow tacked on controls? i mean seriously.lonewolf604

someone hasent played metroid :P

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209761905743320666815741627644

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#154 209761905743320666815741627644
Member since 2006 • 32 Posts

Some time ago, I was in General Games Discussion talking about what I except from Nintendo's next console, and one of the things was a much more powerful machine to deliver graphics on par with its competition. I was immediately jumped on by a few people saying that "You shouldn't have bought a Wii if you wanted graphics" and "graphics don't make a game good" and "Nintendo just makes fun games." :| I KNOW all that. I bought my Wii, and I have fun with it, but I would have appreciated it if the games looked better, especially on my HDTV (and I wish I kept my old TV for the older games now that I think about it.

So I asked them a question. Why shouldn't Nintendo put more effort into its graphics? They didn't really have an answer for me. They just said, "We don't want graphics. We just want fun games." Everybody should want fun games... but, everyone SHOULD want good graphics too, right? Why just lay on your back and accept whatever Nintendo throws your way? Why not expect more from them? Am I the only one that doesn't want Nintendo to be complacent?

For those particular Wii owners who don't want Nintendo to focus in the graphics department next generation, please try to help me understand your point of view, because I'm simply not getting it.

JustPlainLucas

You right. I even said the same thing about the Wii (before I bought a 360 and a PS3) but now I realize the same thing. If they don't care about graphics and fun games from nintendo why did they even buy a Wii? Just stick to the NES.

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skingus

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#155 skingus
Member since 2006 • 2370 Posts
[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

Nintendo scratched next-gen visuals in order to bring motion controls. For Nintendo to R&D those motion controls, plus the power of a PS3/360, would have cost a small fortune. They tried to break a new market, who are generally much more casual gamers.

I think the idea that it's not all about graphics is what makes the Wii special. It;s about gameplay aswell.

Please take this post very seriously! No matter what anyone wants to say, making a system that was centered around motion control was a HUGE endeavor.... NIN wanted a system focused around this control scheme, yet they wanted to keep their costs down as a buisness plan. They obviously spent huge amounts in their research and developement departments. Now, Imagine if they decided to keep up with Sony and Microsoft in the technical graphics department... The Wii would have been the most expensive console on the market. They just chose to go a different route, and it actually paid off. It was a huge gamble, but it worked for them. By next gen, i'd be willing to bet that they catch up in the graphics department!
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Dystopian-X

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#156 Dystopian-X
Member since 2008 • 8998 Posts

They don't believe that BS because Nintendo also gave them this.

NinjaDuckling

Proceed, because I can show you more Nintendo titles that use the same recycled awful graphics whereas you can't show me more Galaxy.

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#157 tagyhag
Member since 2007 • 15874 Posts

[QUOTE="NinjaDuckling"]

They don't believe that BS because Nintendo also gave them this.

Dystopian-X

Proceed, because I can show you more Nintendo titles that use the same recycled awful graphics whereas you can't show me more Galaxy.

You're right, every time Nintendo makes a Wii game, they should change how the Miis look completely! Who the heck cares that they're supposed to be looking like that? It's not like other games also have the Miis looking the same!

1

Oops....Well, at least the 360 doesn't have games doing that!

5

Oh...Well...What do you know? :P

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MangaJ

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#158 MangaJ
Member since 2008 • 1435 Posts

Heh, "sheep farms." I don't understand why people actually buy the wii. You're just encouraging nintendo to make more subpar systems with silly gimmicks.

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Dystopian-X

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#159 Dystopian-X
Member since 2008 • 8998 Posts

You're right, every time Nintendo makes a Wii game, they should change how the Miis look completely! Who the heck cares that they're supposed to be looking like that? It's not like other games also have the Miis looking the same!

1

Oops....Well, at least the 360 doesn't have games doing that!

5

Oh...Well...What do you know? :P

tagyhag

Well even if they are intended to look like that, doesn't make the graphics any less cheap now does it? :P

I'm not saying Nintendo are the only ones who would do that but comparing it to the 360 or PS3? Let's just say Wii won't fare well. Just compare all the Mii-based games to like what? 1 Mario Galaxy game?

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roxlimn

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#160 roxlimn
Member since 2003 • 1104 Posts

We're encouraging Nintendo to make products we like.You don't like it, and you don't understand why we like it. That's fine. You are under no obligation to do either of those things. There are other products in the market for you, so why should you care how we spend our money?

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Serraph105

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#161 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

To be honest I think the Wii'sgraphics are just fine when done right (look at Mario Galaxy and Metroid Prime for examples). Everyone who got a wii knew what they were getting into when they bought it. I don't remember anybody saying "I'm so excited about the Wii's graphics," when they bought it. Instead they were raving about motion controlls and how much fun it was going to be.

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DeadEndPanda

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#162 DeadEndPanda
Member since 2008 • 2358 Posts

Heh, "sheep farms." I don't understand why people actually buy the wii. You're just encouraging nintendo to make more subpar systems with silly gimmicks.

MangaJugs
thats how i felt about the ps2
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Communistsheep

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#163 Communistsheep
Member since 2009 • 1516 Posts

[QUOTE="roxlimn"] *stands up and starts a slow clap* surrealnumber5

hakanakumono:

No, not really. I've seen Mario Galaxy in HD. It's not substantially better. Neither was Muramasa, for that matter. For some games, it just doesn't matter. Sure, you can put all kinds of crazy effects on a Tetris game, but it's got a very marginal effect for the most part. It's still blocks.

Communistsheeep:

"That's irrelevant, this isn't about industry in general, this is about ethics, i mean why the hell should i pay 250 for something that just is plain a gamecube with motion controls, i will not buy it, i won't until i have games that satisfy me, but that doesn't give you the attitude to say ''don't like, then shut up'', which is essentially what you are saying."

First of all, your grammar and vocubulary need work, young man. Read more books - they're really quite good forms of entertainment.

Secondly, Nintendo's pricing is not ethical because we don't like in a society where pricing is dictated by ethics - it's called a market economy. In a market economy, people make money by selling things that other people want, for more than they were made for. That is how a couple kids can sell lemonade at 200% markup on a hot day.

Don't like it? Don't buy it. No one is forcing you.

"But i don't accept it, and it's something i complain about. Wrong, The wii does infact target much more younger audiences, however, older ones have also found affection in it, sadly, most of these are merely casual, usually don't have a large gaming history, and know little about it, you may be a exception. But that isn't the point, what if i want something with just more then ''just plain fun'', i also want something that can also showcase more deep titles, which don't consist of me flailing my arms around like a fool for an hour."

Luckily for you, Sony and MS probably have you covered. Have you checked out their gaming products? I think you'll find them much to your liking. The Wii has an attach rate comparable to the 360 and the PS3, which is really something if you consider that it's got twice the install base, just about. By and large, older gamers buy exactly what they want, after much research. They aren't buying Carnival Games because they don't know any better - they're buying it beause it contains something they want.

You see, they're NOT you. They don't essentially have the same tastes as you. You're assuming that they'd like something like No More Heroes, but they're too stupid to know that NMH exists. This is not true. All those soccer moms? Yeah, they communicate with each other through the blogosphere. When one person tries out a game, they let everyone else know. By and large, as a group, they're surprisingly well informed about the Wii's library.

"How many of these games are good, and how many target my audience (racing, shooters, WRPG'S, online centric?) They may buy it, but then again, the general consumer is usually not informed about alot of things, in terms of hardware it's overpriced, period."

You don't know what overpriced means, kid. Look it up. And no, the Wii is not for you. Why the hell did you buy one? Evidently, you are less informed than all those soccer moms who got exactly what they wanted.

"But there is a fallacy in your arguement, you assume fun factor is the only reason one would buy a game, if i find a game fun, i won't go straight and buy it, i always think, ''are the graphics good, will i play it alot, is it worth it'' Seriously, if you think you can base something on a single subject, then you should research more into gaming."

Firstly, that is not a fallacy. Look up the definition of "fallacy."

Secondly, I'm not assuming. I'm TELLING you that fun is the only factor you should consider when buying a game, other than pricing. Graphics? Psh. Replayability? Maybe. But that factors into "fun."

"In terms of hardware they are using outdated techs, they may have some newer controls, but in general thats it. If you think that's why nintendo made it, then you are wrong even more. They made motion controls because they knew that it would appeal to a casual market, who somply wants to play for an hour, they wont make any changes to gaming society, they are just another buyer. But then again, MS and Sony are making similar controlsm does this mean they are doing this for the future, no. They are doing what nintendo is doing, FOR THE MONEY. This shows how little you know about gaming, most people including my don't like motion controls."

Controls ARE hardware. It's, like, in the definition of hardware.

50 million consumers argue against you. Most people DO prefer motion controls to traditional controls. That's why Sony and MS are doing it. And yes, it's for the money - because more people like it, more people will buy the product. Duh.

Nintendo made motion controls to appeal to a wider market. They didn't know it - they theorized. It has already changed the gaming industry. Look around you, kid. Motion controls are everywhere and they're here to stay.


roxlimn

Someb

hakanakumono:

No, not really. I've seen Mario Galaxy in HD. It's not substantially better. Neither was Muramasa, for that matter. For some games, it just doesn't matter. Sure, you can put all kinds of crazy effects on a Tetris game, but it's got a very marginal effect for the most part. It's still blocks.

Communistsheeep:

"That's irrelevant, this isn't about industry in general, this is about ethics, i mean why the hell should i pay 250 for something that just is plain a gamecube with motion controls, i will not buy it, i won't until i have games that satisfy me, but that doesn't give you the attitude to say ''don't like, then shut up'', which is essentially what you are saying."

First of all, your grammar and vocubulary need work, young man. Read more books - they're really quite good forms of entertainment.

Secondly, Nintendo's pricing is not ethical because we don't like in a society where pricing is dictated by ethics - it's called a market economy. In a market economy, people make money by selling things that other people want, for more than they were made for. That is how a couple kids can sell lemonade at 200% markup on a hot day.

Don't like it? Don't buy it. No one is forcing you.

"But i don't accept it, and it's something i complain about. Wrong, The wii does infact target much more younger audiences, however, older ones have also found affection in it, sadly, most of these are merely casual, usually don't have a large gaming history, and know little about it, you may be a exception. But that isn't the point, what if i want something with just more then ''just plain fun'', i also want something that can also showcase more deep titles, which don't consist of me flailing my arms around like a fool for an hour."

Luckily for you, Sony and MS probably have you covered. Have you checked out their gaming products? I think you'll find them much to your liking. The Wii has an attach rate comparable to the 360 and the PS3, which is really something if you consider that it's got twice the install base, just about. By and large, older gamers buy exactly what they want, after much research. They aren't buying Carnival Games because they don't know any better - they're buying it beause it contains something they want.

You see, they're NOT you. They don't essentially have the same tastes as you. You're assuming that they'd like something like No More Heroes, but they're too stupid to know that NMH exists. This is not true. All those soccer moms? Yeah, they communicate with each other through the blogosphere. When one person tries out a game, they let everyone else know. By and large, as a group, they're surprisingly well informed about the Wii's library.

"How many of these games are good, and how many target my audience (racing, shooters, WRPG'S, online centric?) They may buy it, but then again, the general consumer is usually not informed about alot of things, in terms of hardware it's overpriced, period."

You don't know what overpriced means, kid. Look it up. And no, the Wii is not for you. Why the hell did you buy one? Evidently, you are less informed than all those soccer moms who got exactly what they wanted.

"But there is a fallacy in your arguement, you assume fun factor is the only reason one would buy a game, if i find a game fun, i won't go straight and buy it, i always think, ''are the graphics good, will i play it alot, is it worth it'' Seriously, if you think you can base something on a single subject, then you should research more into gaming."

Firstly, that is not a fallacy. Look up the definition of "fallacy."

Secondly, I'm not assuming. I'm TELLING you that fun is the only factor you should consider when buying a game, other than pricing. Graphics? Psh. Replayability? Maybe. But that factors into "fun."

"In terms of hardware they are using outdated techs, they may have some newer controls, but in general thats it. If you think that's why nintendo made it, then you are wrong even more. They made motion controls because they knew that it would appeal to a casual market, who somply wants to play for an hour, they wont make any changes to gaming society, they are just another buyer. But then again, MS and Sony are making similar controlsm does this mean they are doing this for the future, no. They are doing what nintendo is doing, FOR THE MONEY. This shows how little you know about gaming, most people including my don't like motion controls."

Controls ARE hardware. It's, like, in the definition of hardware.

50 million consumers argue against you. Most people DO prefer motion controls to traditional controls. That's why Sony and MS are doing it. And yes, it's for the money - because more people like it, more people will buy the product. Duh.

Nintendo made motion controls to appeal to a wider market. They didn't know it - they theorized. It has already changed the gaming industry. Look around you, kid. Motion controls are everywhere and they're here to stay.

roxlimn

My grammar and vocabulary are irrelevant to the discussion, and you know this. I am not discussing the current state of the market, i am stating how things should be, you can't just simply go around blabbering that it's just how it is, or else there would be nothing do discuss in the first place.

Again, there you go with the whole ''don't like it, then leave it'' crap. I will never buy one of those things, for obvious reasons, but does that mean i am not allowed to complain about it?

Their attach rate is however lower, and you do infact realize there are some different factors for that attach rate, pricing, bundles and so on, needles to say, i doubt you would be willing to pay 120 dollars for a wii game no would you? Explain this, much of these so called quality titles, that aren't first party usually sell pretty badly, so what do you ''older'' gamers buy, because according to sale charts, you sure as hell aren't buying the good ones.

You may find some form of pleaser, but with an avarage attach rate, of 4-5 i'f i'm right, there just isn't anything to be saying. Suprisingly well informed? Sellers on wii are usually low rated, needless to say a game like NMH, doesn't sell very well on a Wii, neither does game like the conduit, you know why, because they don't have that audience. Considering that i use my definition of overpriced, i think i do, you can blabber about the industry all you want, but frankly, when you can get a different console with the same price, with much better hardware, then you know that it's overpriced, that's from a complete objective point of view, you may go around claiming i should learn about the industry, but you should try and learn about hardware for once.

You know why i bought one, because nintendo promised some pretty good games, despite the lack of graphics, they promised great online games, shooters and awesome racing games. What did i get, a rubbish censored online.

Also, stop using my age as some insult, you will treat me like yourself, not like somebody that is inferior, money isn't an issue for me, i make roughly 1000 dollars with tax ammount, so money isn't an issue, but that doesn't mean i go around spending it simply because i can.

Except fun factor isn't the only factor when buying a game, it may be for you, but i am not going to buy a game for 60 dollars if it's only going to last me for a couple of hours, how wrong you can be sometimes. Why should it be, i find graphics an important factor, i find online and community an important factor as well, are you going to say they are irrelevant simply because you don't include them? I'm talking in terms of graphical hardware, not controls.

I don't if they do so, and another 57-8 million disagree with you, by that logic, most people prefer the traditional, and that's without including PC. Obviously, so stop with your whole, nintendo is doing this for teh future.

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Communistsheep

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#164 Communistsheep
Member since 2009 • 1516 Posts
[QUOTE="MangaJugs"]

Heh, "sheep farms." I don't understand why people actually buy the wii. You're just encouraging nintendo to make more subpar systems with silly gimmicks.

DeadEndPanda
thats how i felt about the ps2

To be fair, the ps3 had a hell of alot more games.
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Teuf_

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#165 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

Nintendo scratched next-gen visuals in order to bring motion controls. For Nintendo to R&D those motion controls, plus the power of a PS3/360, would have cost a small fortune.

lundy86_4



No way. R&D on a controller with a few accelerometers and an IR-cam? That's nothing compared to the costs of designing new chips, debugging tools, and engines to actually use them.

Nintendo just didn't want to spend huge amounts of money on next-gen hardware just to have it become another GameCube.

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h575309

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#166 h575309
Member since 2005 • 8551 Posts

Thats not an argument, it sounds like an excuse. But the point of the Wii is to get the mainstream market gaming, and most dont have HDTVs so I guess it doesnt matter to them.

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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#167 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
It's almost as if some people think that focusing on graphics means that developers aren't focusing on fun gameplay as well. Which is obviously untrue. Except in the case of Bioshock.
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Communistsheep

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#168 Communistsheep
Member since 2009 • 1516 Posts

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

Nintendo scratched next-gen visuals in order to bring motion controls. For Nintendo to R&D those motion controls, plus the power of a PS3/360, would have cost a small fortune.

Teufelhuhn



No way. R&D on a controller with a few accelerometers and an IR-cam? That's nothing compared to the costs of designing new chips, debugging tools, and engines to actually use them.

Nintendo just didn't want to spend huge amounts of money on next-gen hardware just to have it become another GameCube.

Well, it's not like having better hardware would somehow prevent them from having motion controls.

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Teuf_

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#169 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

Well, it's not like having better hardware would somehow prevent them from having motion controls.

Communistsheep



Nope, not at all. It's not like it's preventing the 360 and PS3 from adding motion controls. :P

But it would have prevented them from being able to make a super-cheap console that they could sell at a profit at launch.

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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#171 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts

I'm addressing you as a younger person because you demonstrate all the deficiencies one can usually expect in a younger person.

roxlimn
that's how far i got
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Yandere

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#172 Yandere
Member since 2009 • 9878 Posts

Wow, by looking at some of these posts it looks like people take their consoles ****ing seriously.

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DeadEndPanda

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#173 DeadEndPanda
Member since 2008 • 2358 Posts

[QUOTE="DeadEndPanda"][QUOTE="MangaJugs"]

Heh, "sheep farms." I don't understand why people actually buy the wii. You're just encouraging nintendo to make more subpar systems with silly gimmicks.

Communistsheep

thats how i felt about the ps2

To be fair, the ps3 had a hell of alot more games.

im guessing you mean the ps2,

and you cant compare ps2 whole life to the wiis, which isnt even half way dead.

and to make this clear,

the only console i owned last gen was the ps2, i had 3 of them, and i still loved the games on gamecube more. :/

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roxlimn

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#174 roxlimn
Member since 2003 • 1104 Posts

Jandurin:

That's actually literally true. Games aren't magical products that spring out of thin air. They're made by people in real software labs with real man-hours. You know, like it's a real-world thing. Every man-hour spent on creating high-resolution texture is time and money NOT spent on improving the gameplay aspect of the game. That is just how reality works. The only way for a game to have both high-resolution graphics and innovative gameplay is if the developers hires essentially a whole separate studio just to create high resolution graphics.

The thing most of you young uns can't seem to understand is that high resolution textures require large amounts of man-hours spent essentially grinding them out in boring painting sessions. You zoom out the texture to the necessary magnification and manually put every single dot and blemish by hand, one at a time. It's like painting-by-numbers, if your canvass were the size of several city blocks.

It's expensive and time-consuming.

In contrast, interesting game design requires no more than a handful of game designers, and maybe some few more teams to run beta-testing for glitches. It's much cheaper. Even the physics engines and middle ware are usually bought pre-made and tweaked to suit the game.

In a very literal way, even cent spent on graphics takes away from game design.

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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#175 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
[QUOTE="roxlimn"]

Jandurin:

That's actually literally true. Games aren't magical products that spring out of thin air. They're made by people in real software labs with real man-hours. You know, like it's a real-world thing. Every man-hour spent on creating high-resolution texture is time and money NOT spent on improving the gameplay aspect of the game. That is just how reality works. The only way for a game to have both high-resolution graphics and innovative gameplay is if the developers hires essentially a whole separate studio just to create high resolution graphics.

The thing most of you young uns can't seem to understand is that high resolution textures require large amounts of man-hours spent essentially grinding them out in boring painting sessions. You zoom out the texture to the necessary magnification and manually put every single dot and blemish by hand, one at a time. It's like painting-by-numbers, if your canvass were the size of several city blocks.

It's expensive and time-consuming.

In contrast, interesting game design requires no more than a handful of game designers, and maybe some few more teams to run beta-testing for glitches. It's much cheaper. Even the physics engines and middle ware are usually bought pre-made and tweaked to suit the game.

In a very literal way, even cent spent on graphics takes away from game design.

OMG. This explains Super Mario Galaxy perfectly. A fantastic game with horrid visuals. It all makes sense! also, lol @ young uns
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h575309

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#176 h575309
Member since 2005 • 8551 Posts
[QUOTE="roxlimn"]

Jandurin:

That's actually literally true. Games aren't magical products that spring out of thin air. They're made by people in real software labs with real man-hours. You know, like it's a real-world thing. Every man-hour spent on creating high-resolution texture is time and money NOT spent on improving the gameplay aspect of the game. That is just how reality works. The only way for a game to have both high-resolution graphics and innovative gameplay is if the developers hires essentially a whole separate studio just to create high resolution graphics.

The thing most of you young uns can't seem to understand is that high resolution textures require large amounts of man-hours spent essentially grinding them out in boring painting sessions. You zoom out the texture to the necessary magnification and manually put every single dot and blemish by hand, one at a time. It's like painting-by-numbers, if your canvass were the size of several city blocks.

It's expensive and time-consuming.

In contrast, interesting game design requires no more than a handful of game designers, and maybe some few more teams to run beta-testing for glitches. It's much cheaper. Even the physics engines and middle ware are usually bought pre-made and tweaked to suit the game.

In a very literal way, even cent spent on graphics takes away from game design.

Im gonna take a wild guess and say the average size of dev teams is much larger now.
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#177 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
Im gonna take a wild guess and say the average size of dev teams is much larger now.h575309
don't talk back to the old man! he obviously is very wise in the ways of the real world :o there's no way that any developer in their right mind would have different teams focusing on graphics and gameplay elements of video games. That would require :shock: time and money!
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#178 mitu123
Member since 2006 • 155290 Posts

Wow, by looking at some of these posts it looks like people take their consoles ****ing seriously.

Yandere

That's System Wars for ya, and I've been here for nearly a year now to know that.

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Grandstreamer

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#179 Grandstreamer
Member since 2004 • 4562 Posts

Nintendo opted against next gen graphics so they could make one of the crappiest consoles of all time with the pretext that its an 'advancement in play' wherein actuality its an advancement of nothing. Its just 'different', nothing more.

The Wii has all the complexity of a damn Fisher Price toy and next to nothing worth buying for it.

Make no mistake, the Wii is the best selling console this gen but it is EVERY BIT as crappy as the gamecube was.

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roxlimn

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#180 roxlimn
Member since 2003 • 1104 Posts

One of these days, some of you may actually understand basic economic theory and thereby actually make a decent living. When you do, you'll come back to this thread and laugh at yourselves. Until then, please keep playing the stuff you like. You are not obligated to like everything that's on sale on every market in the world.

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DeadEndPanda

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#181 DeadEndPanda
Member since 2008 • 2358 Posts

Nintendo opted against next gen graphics so they could make one of the crappiest consoles of all time with the pretext that its an 'advancement in play' wherein actuality its an advancement of nothing. Its just 'different', nothing more.

The Wii has all the complexity of a damn Fisher Price toy and next to nothing worth buying for it.

Make no mistake, the Wii is the best selling console this gen but it is EVERY BIT as crappy as the gamecube was.

Grandstreamer

perfect example of how SW is

unlogical

stupid

and thinks opinions = facts :lol

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OniStrat

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#182 OniStrat
Member since 2003 • 1800 Posts

Good graphics doesn't mean "realistic looking". There are games that look nowhere near reality but still look great. Gears of War is a game that looks good, but it doesn't look realistic. Zelda: Wind Waker is in my opinion maybe the best looking game ever and it has nothing to do with realism. I'm playing Uncharted 2 right now, and while it looks great and 'real', it doesn't actually make the game better.

I don't really understand why people want games that resemble the real world. Sure, if you play football or hockey or something, but when playing fantasy games, I want the art to be good.

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Communistsheep

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#183 Communistsheep
Member since 2009 • 1516 Posts

[QUOTE="Communistsheep"][QUOTE="DeadEndPanda"] thats how i felt about the ps2 DeadEndPanda

To be fair, the ps3 had a hell of alot more games.

im guessing you mean the ps2,

and you cant compare ps2 whole life to the wiis, which isnt even half way dead.

and to make this clear,

the only console i owned last gen was the ps2, i had 3 of them, and i still loved the games on gamecube more. :/

No i meant the ps3. :P
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#184 DeadEndPanda
Member since 2008 • 2358 Posts

[QUOTE="DeadEndPanda"]

[QUOTE="Communistsheep"] To be fair, the ps3 had a hell of alot more games.Communistsheep

im guessing you mean the ps2,

and you cant compare ps2 whole life to the wiis, which isnt even half way dead.

and to make this clear,

the only console i owned last gen was the ps2, i had 3 of them, and i still loved the games on gamecube more. :/

No i meant the ps3. :P

the ps3 has more games then the wii? lol

no, i think even you would know this :P

quantity = wii

quality = opinion = for me its the wii

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Communistsheep

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#185 Communistsheep
Member since 2009 • 1516 Posts

Jandurin:

That's actually literally true. Games aren't magical products that spring out of thin air. They're made by people in real software labs with real man-hours. You know, like it's a real-world thing. Every man-hour spent on creating high-resolution texture is time and money NOT spent on improving the gameplay aspect of the game. That is just how reality works. The only way for a game to have both high-resolution graphics and innovative gameplay is if the developers hires essentially a whole separate studio just to create high resolution graphics.

The thing most of you young uns can't seem to understand is that high resolution textures require large amounts of man-hours spent essentially grinding them out in boring painting sessions. You zoom out the texture to the necessary magnification and manually put every single dot and blemish by hand, one at a time. It's like painting-by-numbers, if your canvass were the size of several city blocks.

It's expensive and time-consuming.

In contrast, interesting game design requires no more than a handful of game designers, and maybe some few more teams to run beta-testing for glitches. It's much cheaper. Even the physics engines and middle ware are usually bought pre-made and tweaked to suit the game.

In a very literal way, even cent spent on graphics takes away from game design.

roxlimn
Sure, if th

Communistsheep:

I'm addressing you as a younger person because you demonstrate all the deficiencies one can usually expect in a younger person. You are unable to separate fact from opinion, you have a profound lack of basic knowledge about the world, and you think you know everything.

Are these baseless, ad hominem attacks? No. They are simply what they are based on statement you yourself have made. You say that the Wii is overpriced because you like the offerings of another system. That is not, my dear boy, the definition of overpriced. Overpriced refers to economic activity, and in the modern world, economic activity is based on the market economy. If your product is not selling well because of high pricing issues, then it is overpriced - it's not on the ideal position on the supply-demand curve. Did you read up on that? I suggest you do, because you will continue to not understand what's going on until you get yourself some nice basic information.

You say that the attach rate for the Wii is lower. That is literally true - it's a small amount lower these months, but higher in some months prior - it fluctuates according to the time frame used. Are you running on rumor or are you actually checking up the facts? Which survey are you using, and how do you know they're credible? According to the recent month-to-month surveys by Nielsen, the Wii's attach rate is roughly comparable to the other consoles. Which surveys do you do by, or are you just inventing things to say? That is not how things are done in the real world, kid.

"Sellers on wii are usually low rated, needless to say a game like NMH, doesn't sell very well on a Wii, neither does game like the conduit, you know why, because they don't have that audience. Considering that i use my definition of overpriced, i think i do, you can blabber about the industry all you want, but frankly, when you can get a different console with the same price, with much better hardware, then you know that it's overpriced, that's from a complete objective point of view, you may go around claiming i should learn about the industry, but you should try and learn about hardware for once."

Firstly, I game on a PC. I know the hardware inside the PS3, the 360, and the Wii, even though Nintendo has never released an official spec sheet. Do YOU know what's in your console?

Secondly, the Wii is a product - it's an inanimate object. It does not sell games. Consoles do not sell games. Games sell consoles. You know why games YOU consider good are not selling on the Wii? It's because of people like YOU. You do not buy the games you consider good, so they do not sell. The reason for why those games don't sell isn't the Wii. It's YOU.

"You know why i bought one, because nintendo promised some pretty good games, despite the lack of graphics, they promised great online games, shooters and awesome racing games. What did i get, a rubbish censored online."

You're angry because you made a stupid decision. That's understandable. Stupid, but understandable. You do not EVER buy a console if it does not have games you want to play on it. The ONLY justifiable purpose of a console is to play games. You could make an argument about the PS3 being usable as a BluRay player, but that does to that, too. You do NOT buy a PS3 as a BluRay player when you cannot buy any BluRay movies you want to watch!

It's idiotic, and you will have hopefully learned your lesson. All companies promise you the sky and the earth and everything in it. It's called MARKETING. You do not actually buy a Wii (or ANY console or system or product) until it has enough games on it to completely justify that purchase. It's not Nintendo fault you made a stupid decision. That's all you.

"Except fun factor isn't the only factor when buying a game, it may be for you, but i am not going to buy a game for 60 dollars if it's only going to last me for a couple of hours, how wrong you can be sometimes. Why should it be, i find graphics an important factor, i find online and community an important factor as well, are you going to say they are irrelevant simply because you don't include them? I'm talking in terms of graphical hardware, not controls."

This makes me even more baffled at how you could have managed to buy a Wii. Did you NOT know that Nintendo has practically no experience implementing online ANYTHING, and has nearly no server bandwidth in the US? You DO know that online functionality kind of depends on company servers, right? Did you not see how underpowered the Wii's processing was from the demos? Did you not wait until others could hack it apart and examine the hardware firsthand?

I stand by what I say. If you wanted those things, then it was clear from the outset that you should have gotten a 360, since that product has what YOU want. That does not make that product superior - it means it has what you want.

"I don't if they do so, and another 57-8 million disagree with you, by that logic, most people prefer the traditional, and that's without including PC. Obviously, so stop with your whole, nintendo is doing this for teh future."

Your rebuttal would work so much better if you actually understood what I wrote.

roxlimn
No you will not, you will adress me if i lack said knowledge, you will not treat me like someone else, you will treat me in the matter that is correct, not what suits you. I have no problem making a difference between fact and opinion, but frankly when it comes to a subject like this, the line is blurry, and you seem to be unable to realize how video games even work. Wrong, you somehow believe that there is no subjective matter when it comes to the word overpriced, needles to say, if you find a drink that costs 50 dollars, yet you almost get the same for something that may cost a 10nth of it, will you start blabbering about how the industry works, or will you also consider your opinion about it. Frankly, i don't care what the industry thinks on the pricing of the wii, I think that it is overpriced. My sources aren't relevant at the moment, howerver the general public knows that the wii has a lower attach rate, which doesn't suprise me really. You are underestimating me right now, you seem to assume that i somehow have absolutely NO knowledge at all when it comes to this, which is infact wrong.

Wow, by looking at some of these posts it looks like people take their consoles ****ing seriously.

Yandere
Not really, i just like to argue. :P
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Communistsheep

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#186 Communistsheep
Member since 2009 • 1516 Posts

[QUOTE="Communistsheep"][QUOTE="DeadEndPanda"]

im guessing you mean the ps2,

and you cant compare ps2 whole life to the wiis, which isnt even half way dead.

and to make this clear,

the only console i owned last gen was the ps2, i had 3 of them, and i still loved the games on gamecube more. :/

DeadEndPanda

No i meant the ps3. :P

the ps3 has more games then the wii? lol

no, i think even you would know this :P

quantity = wii

quality = opinion = for me its the wii

My frisbee>all
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#187 Communistsheep
Member since 2009 • 1516 Posts
[QUOTE="h575309"]Im gonna take a wild guess and say the average size of dev teams is much larger now.Jandurin
don't talk back to the old man! he obviously is very wise in the ways of the real world :o there's no way that any developer in their right mind would have different teams focusing on graphics and gameplay elements of video games. That would require :shock: time and money!

No man, i mean we still live in the basement days, where 3-4 nerds have to make said game.
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DeadEndPanda

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#188 DeadEndPanda
Member since 2008 • 2358 Posts

[QUOTE="DeadEndPanda"]

[QUOTE="Communistsheep"] No i meant the ps3. :PCommunistsheep

the ps3 has more games then the wii? lol

no, i think even you would know this :P

quantity = wii

quality = opinion = for me its the wii

My frisbee>all

finally, something we can agree on, i though that would never happen :P

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Burning-Sludge

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#189 Burning-Sludge
Member since 2008 • 4068 Posts

More power = more complex game engines. The Wii could have been so much more with better hardware. Sure the Wii-mote was a risky decision to pull off but now that Nintendo knows that it sells I hope they aim for a more powerful machine.

I like motion controls and I'm also looking forward to SWS (Sony Waggle Stick:P) and Natal.

Epak_

Why don't control schemes count toward hardware?

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#190 Burning-Sludge
Member since 2008 • 4068 Posts

Heh, "sheep farms." I don't understand why people actually buy the wii. You're just encouraging nintendo to make more subpar systems with silly gimmicks.

MangaJugs

It isn't like anyone wanted a Game Cube which was a console based on graphics made by Nintendo.

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#191 Communistsheep
Member since 2009 • 1516 Posts

One of these days, some of you may actually understand basic economic theory and thereby actually make a decent living. When you do, you'll come back to this thread and laugh at yourselves. Until then, please keep playing the stuff you like. You are not obligated to like everything that's on sale on every market in the world.

roxlimn
So what happens when someone has a living, yet still has a negative opinion on the wii? Will a pandoras box open itself?
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#192 Communistsheep
Member since 2009 • 1516 Posts

[QUOTE="MangaJugs"]

Heh, "sheep farms." I don't understand why people actually buy the wii. You're just encouraging nintendo to make more subpar systems with silly gimmicks.

Burning-Sludge

It isn't like anyone wanted a Game Cube which was a console based on graphics made by Nintendo.

Why not both, if nintendo made more shooters, had better graphics, and a black wii, i would pre-order one so quick that it would be ridiculous.
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#193 Communistsheep
Member since 2009 • 1516 Posts

[QUOTE="Epak_"]

More power = more complex game engines. The Wii could have been so much more with better hardware. Sure the Wii-mote was a risky decision to pull off but now that Nintendo knows that it sells I hope they aim for a more powerful machine.

I like motion controls and I'm also looking forward to SWS (Sony Waggle Stick:P) and Natal.

Burning-Sludge

Why don't control schemes count toward hardware?

Why should they, a control doesn't have any affection on the hardware.
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Teuf_

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#194 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts


That's actually literally true. Games aren't magical products that spring out of thin air. They're made by people in real software labs with real man-hours. You know, like it's a real-world thing. Every man-hour spent on creating high-resolution texture is time and money NOT spent on improving the gameplay aspect of the game. That is just how reality works. The only way for a game to have both high-resolution graphics and innovative gameplay is if the developers hires essentially a whole separate studio just to create high resolution graphics.roxlimn


Not really. The people responsible for gameplay decisions are mostly separate from anyone who's going to be hand-painting textures. There's of course going to be some overlap in terms of manpower but to say that "graphics time = gameplay time" is an extremely gross oversimplification.




...is that high resolution textures require large amounts of man-hours spent essentially grinding them out in boring painting sessions. You zoom out the texture to the necessary magnification and manually put every single dot and blemish by hand, one at a time. It's like painting-by-numbers, if your canvass were the size of several city blocks.

It's expensive and time-consuming.
roxlimn

Only certain textures require hand-painting. Many are derived from photographs, procedural texture generators, or tools that generate them from other source data.

Believe or not a lot of "good-looking" games are the product of talent and hard-work, not some studio hiring 100's of artists to tweak pixels. ;)


In contrast, interesting game design requires no more than a handful of game designers, and maybe some few more teams to run beta-testing for glitches. It's much cheaper. Even the physics engines and middle ware are usually bought pre-made and tweaked to suit the game.

In a very literal way, even cent spent on graphics takes away from game design.

roxlimn



"Interesting game design" requires the technology to back it. Middleware like Havok or Unreal Engine 3 are anything but cheap, and typically have huge per-seat costs as well as a percentage of game sales. Hence why you don't see small indie devs licensing that stuff.


The thing most of you young uns can't seem to understand...
roxlimn


You really need to cut it out with the condescending attitude, unless you'd like to be moderated for trolling.

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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#195 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
[QUOTE="Communistsheep"][QUOTE="roxlimn"]

One of these days, some of you may actually understand basic economic theory and thereby actually make a decent living. When you do, you'll come back to this thread and laugh at yourselves. Until then, please keep playing the stuff you like. You are not obligated to like everything that's on sale on every market in the world.

So what happens when someone has a living, yet still has a negative opinion on the wii? Will a pandoras box open itself?

no one old enough to have a job dislikes the wii it's the mature console, didn't you know?
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#196 DeadEndPanda
Member since 2008 • 2358 Posts

[QUOTE="Burning-Sludge"]

[QUOTE="MangaJugs"]

Heh, "sheep farms." I don't understand why people actually buy the wii. You're just encouraging nintendo to make more subpar systems with silly gimmicks.

Communistsheep

It isn't like anyone wanted a Game Cube which was a console based on graphics made by Nintendo.

Why not both, if nintendo made more shooters, had better graphics, and a black wii, i would pre-order one so quick that it would be ridiculous.

yoo and your shootersz :P

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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#197 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts

You really need to cut it out with the condescending attitude, unless you'd like to be moderated for trolling.

Teufelhuhn
Teuf, Teuf. It's okay. He's gonna tell us a story after snack time on how he saved the princess from the castle, BUT SHE WASN'T THERE. That wasn't too far, was it? :lol:
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Burning-Sludge

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#198 Burning-Sludge
Member since 2008 • 4068 Posts

[QUOTE="Burning-Sludge"]

[QUOTE="MangaJugs"]

Heh, "sheep farms." I don't understand why people actually buy the wii. You're just encouraging nintendo to make more subpar systems with silly gimmicks.

Communistsheep

It isn't like anyone wanted a Game Cube which was a console based on graphics made by Nintendo.

Why not both, if nintendo made more shooters, had better graphics, and a black wii, i would pre-order one so quick that it would be ridiculous.

Both may have been bad for business. Sony did both and they are in last. How do I know you won't figure out a way to dislike the Wii?

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Burning-Sludge

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#199 Burning-Sludge
Member since 2008 • 4068 Posts

[QUOTE="Burning-Sludge"]

[QUOTE="Epak_"]

More power = more complex game engines. The Wii could have been so much more with better hardware. Sure the Wii-mote was a risky decision to pull off but now that Nintendo knows that it sells I hope they aim for a more powerful machine.

I like motion controls and I'm also looking forward to SWS (Sony Waggle Stick:P) and Natal.

Communistsheep

Why don't control schemes count toward hardware?

Why should they, a control doesn't have any affection on the hardware.

Are they not part of the hardware? They sure aren't software.

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h575309

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#200 h575309
Member since 2005 • 8551 Posts
[QUOTE="Communistsheep"][QUOTE="roxlimn"]

One of these days, some of you may actually understand basic economic theory and thereby actually make a decent living. When you do, you'll come back to this thread and laugh at yourselves. Until then, please keep playing the stuff you like. You are not obligated to like everything that's on sale on every market in the world.

Jandurin
So what happens when someone has a living, yet still has a negative opinion on the wii? Will a pandoras box open itself?

no one old enough to have a job dislikes the wii it's the mature console, didn't you know?

Yea my Wii is so mature it never gets turned on :P Mmmm that didnt work so well....