I have to agree with the bioware hate going on this gen.

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="charizard1605"]It's hard to argue with you if all you are doing is pressing your opinion as fact. Thos at very shaky grounds for a debate. The Witcher series is in no way even close to the same quality as Witcher 2 or even Bioware's games. The series as a whole better than Mass Effect? Don't make me augh. The Witcher 2 I already admitted is better than any single Bioare game, but The Witcher series better than Mass Effect? That's rich. Again, I don't care? Why bring it up if all you radioing is agreeing with me? We both agree The Old Repblic was a failure... Why keep ring AnaNet into the discussion? And no, none of those things you said were bad about MassEffect 2 were factually 'bad.' Sh*t, if you think ME2 does all that bad, then you like, what, four games this generation? Argue facts, not opinions now. Right now, all you're doing is using texasgoldrush's argument techniques, but against Bioware. charizard1605

Have you played The Witcher? Not just The Witcher 2, but both games? If so you can tell me it's laughable. If not, you should stop there, because thus far you have not answered that question.

I agree with you that The Old Republic failed. But the point I focused on was where you mentioned BioWare's "stubbornness" or something like that for challenging WoW. I'm telling you, someone else challenged WoW and have earned, at the very least, critical success. It's never bad to challenge the king. Succeed or fail, you shot for the top.

Yes, I think Mass Effect 2 was bad. It has sh*tty AI that is scripted from beginning to end to do the same thing each and every time. It has infinitely respawning enemies until you push forward. It has CoD-like design in its combat and level flow. It is not a well-designed shooter in the least.

Yes, I only liked four games, they were Perfect Dark Zero, Too Human, Lair and Wii Music. Everything else released this gen was crap. :roll:

Me? texasgoldrush? No.

Thinks Witcher 2 is better than any BioWare game this gen. Has not played The Witcher 1. Thinks it's laughable that The Witcher series is better than Mass Effect. WHADAFUQ?

Define "majority of sh*t" that Mass Effect 2's combat is better than.

Mass Effect 2's story: recruit teammates. do loyalty missions. do "suicide" mission. Fight baby terminator. Don't get me wrong, some of the characters are cool, like Garrus, Samara (who I tried to romance), and but the actual narrative is piss poor.

Yes, Mass Effect 2 has infinitely respawning enemies. I remember because I specifically tried to see if they were infinitely respawning. I remember it from the level with that Krogan scientist or something... it's been like two years since I last played it so it's hazy, but they're there. Also, try backtracking back a few rooms if you think you forgot a stash or something and go back the way you came: DEM NEMENIES IZ BACK!!!!

Again with the "better than most other games" argument for the story. I'll not actually debate you on this topic since it is completely subjective, but if accepting mediocre narrative as being good because it's better than crap is what we're calling an accomplishment than there's little else to say on the matter.

As for WoW, TOR and GW2, yeah, we're on the same "wavelength."

despite publisher developer's equally responsible for the quality of game/ end product.....

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]They were never that good to begin with.NeonNinja

This is also true. KotOR and Jade Empire weren't exactly as fantastic as people say. It seems like most of BioWare's fame is traced back to Baldur's Gate, which really helped shape RPGs. But there's so much better stuff out there from far more competent devs.

I don't mean to keep bringing up The Witcher series, but that games shows how you turn a tactical RPG into an action RPG and make it just as good as the first game, while BioWare seemed to drop the ball entirely on the Dragon Age series by trying the same thing. :/

Mass Effect 2's story: recruit teammates. do loyalty missions. do "suicide" mission. Fight baby terminator. Don't get me wrong, some of the characters are cool, like Garrus, Samara (who I tried to romance), and but the actual narrative is piss poor.

NeonNinja

Just a heads up: Seven Samurai essentially has the same plot as Mass Effect 2. The Magnificent Seven essentially is The Seven Samurai. Both are considered some of the most thrilling movies ever made.

Plots don't have to be elaborate if the story isn't focussed on it (this is especially true of stories considered "drama"). Mass Effect 2's story is about the characters, not the plot. The reason is that you see the world through the existence of the characters. Thus the main plot at the least negligible, at the most, extraneous.

Mass Effect 2 is the only drama in the ME trilogy. The other two can be categorized as melodramas.

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]They were never that good to begin with.Magescrew

This is also true. KotOR and Jade Empire weren't exactly as fantastic as people say. It seems like most of BioWare's fame is traced back to Baldur's Gate, which really helped shape RPGs. But there's so much better stuff out there from far more competent devs.

I don't mean to keep bringing up The Witcher series, but that games shows how you turn a tactical RPG into an action RPG and make it just as good as the first game, while BioWare seemed to drop the ball entirely on the Dragon Age series by trying the same thing. :/

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

Mass Effect 2's story: recruit teammates. do loyalty missions. do "suicide" mission. Fight baby terminator. Don't get me wrong, some of the characters are cool, like Garrus, Samara (who I tried to romance), and but the actual narrative is piss poor.

FrozenLiquid

Just a heads up: Seven Samurai essentially has the same plot as Mass Effect 2. The Magnificent Seven essentially is The Seven Samurai. Both are considered some of the most thrilling movies ever made.

Plots don't have to be elaborate if the story isn't focussed on it (this is especially true of stories considered "drama"). Mass Effect 2's story is about the characters, not the plot. The reason is that you see the world through the existence of the characters. Thus the main plot at the least negligible, at the most, extraneous.

Mass Effect 2 is the only drama in the ME trilogy. The other two can be categorized as melodramas.

Just a headsup, I've seen them. And 13 Assassins which is also awesome.

Just a headsup. They're all better than Mass Effect 2.

Stopped reading there. You liked ME2. Good for you.

NeonNinja

When you go out of your way to say that the game sucks, but then just leave that comment hanging out there with absolutely no reference other than vague allusions to "bad" narrative, AI, gunplay etc. without explaining why it is bad then that is fishing for replies. Sorry, that's the dictionary definition of trolling. What I did (if you bothered to even skim what I wrote) was to explain why I think that ME2 had a great narrative by referencing its structure and included specifics to clarify my point. You can't just say "go play Witcher 1 and 2" because 1: that shouldn't matter to a ME2 discussion and 2: it's not referencing anything specific in any game.

At the very least, why don't you say what specifically made Witcher so great that it overshadowed everything ME2 did? A better plan would be to explain where ME2 failed but I'll take any intelligent analysis at this point instead of the trolling you are currently doing.

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

Mass Effect 2's story: recruit teammates. do loyalty missions. do "suicide" mission. Fight baby terminator. Don't get me wrong, some of the characters are cool, like Garrus, Samara (who I tried to romance), and but the actual narrative is piss poor.

NeonNinja

Just a heads up: Seven Samurai essentially has the same plot as Mass Effect 2. The Magnificent Seven essentially is The Seven Samurai. Both are considered some of the most thrilling movies ever made.

Plots don't have to be elaborate if the story isn't focussed on it (this is especially true of stories considered "drama"). Mass Effect 2's story is about the characters, not the plot. The reason is that you see the world through the existence of the characters. Thus the main plot at the least negligible, at the most, extraneous.

Mass Effect 2 is the only drama in the ME trilogy. The other two can be categorized as melodramas.

Just a headsup, I've seen them. And 13 Assassins which is also awesome.

Just a headsup. They're all better than Mass Effect 2.

Good. So you know that you can't fault Mass Effect 2 for it's lacklustre plot because that's not the direction in went in. It's like faulting a woman for having no penis.

If you want to be witty, at least have good arguments to back yourself up. Coz if you don't, you look like a dickhole.

How is getting random soldiers going to help you if there was an entire fleet of collector ships beyong the Omega 4 relay? Heck even a planet.

Stringerboy

1. The plot is all about gearing up for whatever they might face. It's not just soldiers but equipment and spaceship upgrades as well.
2. The menace they face is unknown. There is no fleet or planet that they are aware of. The whole idea is that they are going in with as much armament as possible. Maybe it won't be enough but maybe that last team member or upgrade was the one they needed. It's the galaxy's best shot.
3. They are not recruiting random soldiers. They are getting the best soldiers in their fields and each one has signfiicant abilities and even know-how on how to upgrade the ship.

Admittedly, it's not perfect but plots rarely are. Thematically, it's all about unifying the whole galaxy against a common threat, and cutting through boundaries and politics to do it.

When you go out of your way to say that the game sucks, but then just leave that comment hanging out there with absolutely no reference other than vague allusions to "bad" narrative, AI, gunplay etc. without explaining why it is bad then that is fishing for replies. Sorry, that's the dictionary definition of trolling.GunSmith1_basic

[QUOTE="Stringerboy"]

How is getting random soldiers going to help you if there was an entire fleet of collector ships beyong the Omega 4 relay? Heck even a planet.

GunSmith1_basic

1. The plot is all about gearing up for whatever they might face. It's not just soldiers but equipment and spaceship upgrades as well.
2. The menace they face is unknown. There is no fleet or planet that they are aware of. The whole idea is that they are going in with as much armament as possible. Maybe it won't be enough but maybe that last team member or upgrade was the one they needed. It's the galaxy's best shot.
3. They are not recruiting random soldiers. They are getting the best soldiers in their fields and each one has signfiicant abilities and even know-how on how to upgrade the ship.

Admittedly, it's not perfect but plots rarely are. Thematically, it's all about unifying the whole galaxy against a common threat, and cutting through boundaries and politics to do it.

I think a lot of people here misunderstod what I said. I do think they deserve hate for some stupid choices they made this gen, but I never said I hated the company at all. I never mentioned anything negative about the Mass Effect games, in fact, I agree with the direction they took with it, since it was a RPG/action hybrid from the begining. My main argument was about Dragon Age Origins and the sequal, which are not about Mass Effect. DA:O was a more traditional Bioware game, and I was arguing against its sequals. They tried to Mass Dragon Age 2. They felt they needed to give Dragon Age 2 some influence of Mass Effect when it wasn't even needed as they are different type of games. They dumbed down all the mechanics of the original for the sake of the Mass Effect crowd and they even added the conversation wheel for further trolling.

Seems I was right about the apologetic bunch, they think they can just praise the Mass Effect games and ignore all else, lol.

Mass Effect is one of the defining series this gen, so nothing to talk there.
.
About Dragon Age? Well, I understand why so many people didn't like the second one, but I didn't like neither. Not to say I didn't enjoy them, I thought DA2 had some great ideas and the Arishok was an amazing antagonist. But both suffer from the same main problem, the failure to give the world life, to give it a soul.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

This is also true. KotOR and Jade Empire weren't exactly as fantastic as people say. It seems like most of BioWare's fame is traced back to Baldur's Gate, which really helped shape RPGs. But there's so much better stuff out there from far more competent devs.

I don't mean to keep bringing up The Witcher series, but that games shows how you turn a tactical RPG into an action RPG and make it just as good as the first game, while BioWare seemed to drop the ball entirely on the Dragon Age series by trying the same thing. :/

FrozenLiquid

The Witcher's combat with two blades and three fighting styIes was extremely well thought out NeonNinja

less compelling world than before.

You have to be on some of the most amazing crack to tell me you enjoyed The Witcher 1's combat. Because on some pretend tactical level, wasn't exactly tactical. Because that's the only game there I knocked for its combat. Not the biggest fan of how Dragon Age does combat itself, but majority of the issues I had with the battle system were more tied to the lame scenarios and level design of that game, and less to do with the actual battle system. jg4xchamp

No I mean RPG combat in general. You seem to hate it. I only played Witcher 1 with the Full Combat Rebalanced mod. It was alright. I dig it more than the twitch-fest that was Witcher 2.

I hate Dragon Age period. Now that's a RPG with sh*tty combat. It's like WoW in singleplayer, without the things that may WoW fun.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] You have to be on some of the most amazing crack to tell me you enjoyed The Witcher 1's combat. Because on some pretend tactical level, wasn't exactly tactical. Because that's the only game there I knocked for its combat. Not the biggest fan of how Dragon Age does combat itself, but majority of the issues I had with the battle system were more tied to the lame scenarios and level design of that game, and less to do with the actual battle system. FrozenLiquid

No I mean RPG combat in general. You seem to hate it. I only played Witcher 1 with the Full Combat Rebalanced mod. It was alright. I dig it more than the twitch-fest that was Witcher 2.

I hate Dragon Age period. Now that's a RPG with sh*tty combat. It's like WoW in singleplayer, without the things that may WoW fun.

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"][QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] The first witcher wasn't even that good either. Good game not gonna knoc kit, but between the lousy combat, the lame dialogue(apparently a translation issue), and the fetch quest sessions didn't exactly make it exciting or compelling or impressive to play. Frankly a lot of times the game insisted on being a chore. The sequel does that sh1t also to some extent, but it covers its ass this time by having much better done combat. Plus as far as choice and consequences go that game's unmatched this gen save maybe Alpha Protocol, and that game loses its good will because it frankly sucks.

BG was legit I guess in the 90s, but even then Fallout and Planescape had more stuff going for them. I can still tolerate Planescape's short comings. I can't do the same with BG2, but I can understand it's place in RPG lore. And frankly I'd rather both ME2 and 3, because in no way in hell is the original ME a better game. It's only advantage is a better plot, but the rest of that experience is poorly executed across the board. 2 and 3 aren't great shooters by any stretch of the imagination or great works of science fiction, but serviceable and fun enough to be good. The original is just a massive chore.

Dragon Age had worse issues than it's actual combat. The uninspired nature of the game and typical piss poor Bioware level design were a lot worse. jg4xchamp

You don't seem to be too fond of RPG combat, which is cool, but other people like myself enjoy it a lot. The leveling part of Dragon Age origins works great because it makes you micro-manage and strategize the way you level up depending on your spezializations and the goals you have for your character. It works great and it's completely separated from the tactical side of combat. A game like origins works well because all the stats, equipment, skills, and AI tactics are all effective under the same system. For example, I can increase a stat like "MAGIC" on my warrior if I wanted to, and it has an effect depending on how I want my party and protagonist to be setup. If I want a team with no magic users, or characters making any fancy potions, I can have a high enough magic stat, or enchanted equipment to make up for the lack of mages in my team. I could end up buying unexpensive health potions with increased potency on my character. A lot of people don't like games like that because they hate numbers or percentages or they hate to micromanage everything, etc. The thing is bioware had a great system for origins that worked well. They had a chance to further develop Origins into something special. Instead, they changed the direction of a lot of things that made Dragon Age work well into something that was inferior(reviews to back it up and everything). I don't think they should get a free pass for that, especially since other developers like SE and Capcom don't.

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

Stopped reading there. You liked ME2. Good for you.

GunSmith1_basic

When you go out of your way to say that the game sucks, but then just leave that comment hanging out there with absolutely no reference other than vague allusions to "bad" narrative, AI, gunplay etc. without explaining why it is bad then that is fishing for replies. Sorry, that's the dictionary definition of trolling. What I did (if you bothered to even skim what I wrote) was to explain why I think that ME2 had a great narrative by referencing its structure and included specifics to clarify my point. You can't just say "go play Witcher 1 and 2" because 1: that shouldn't matter to a ME2 discussion and 2: it's not referencing anything specific in any game.

At the very least, why don't you say what specifically made Witcher so great that it overshadowed everything ME2 did? A better plan would be to explain where ME2 failed but I'll take any intelligent analysis at this point instead of the trolling you are currently doing.

OK. Cool. But I don't care if you think ME2 is good. This is not a discussion I want to have with you if you didn't get the hint.

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

Just a heads up: Seven Samurai essentially has the same plot as Mass Effect 2. The Magnificent Seven essentially is The Seven Samurai. Both are considered some of the most thrilling movies ever made.

Plots don't have to be elaborate if the story isn't focussed on it (this is especially true of stories considered "drama"). Mass Effect 2's story is about the characters, not the plot. The reason is that you see the world through the existence of the characters. Thus the main plot at the least negligible, at the most, extraneous.

Mass Effect 2 is the only drama in the ME trilogy. The other two can be categorized as melodramas.

FrozenLiquid

Just a headsup, I've seen them. And 13 Assassins which is also awesome.

Just a headsup. They're all better than Mass Effect 2.

Good. So you know that you can't fault Mass Effect 2 for it's lacklustre plot because that's not the direction in went in. It's like faulting a woman for having no penis.

If you want to be witty, at least have good arguments to back yourself up. Coz if you don't, you look like a dickhole.

That has to be one of the stupidest replies I have received. I can't fault ME2's plot because a movie did it better back in the 1950's? Thanks, but no. ME2's plot sucks. This is not wit. This is my stance. If you think I'm a dickhole for having it than more power to you.

*stuff*

edo-tensei

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

Just a headsup, I've seen them. And 13 Assassins which is also awesome.

Just a headsup. They're all better than Mass Effect 2.

NeonNinja

Good. So you know that you can't fault Mass Effect 2 for it's lacklustre plot because that's not the direction in went in. It's like faulting a woman for having no penis.

If you want to be witty, at least have good arguments to back yourself up. Coz if you don't, you look like a dickhole.

That has to be one of the stupidest replies I have received. I can't fault ME2's plot because a movie did it better back in the 1950's? Thanks, but no. ME2's plot sucks. This is not wit. This is my stance. If you think I'm a dickhole for having it than more power to you.

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

Good. So you know that you can't fault Mass Effect 2 for it's lacklustre plot because that's not the direction in went in. It's like faulting a woman for having no penis.

If you want to be witty, at least have good arguments to back yourself up. Coz if you don't, you look like a dickhole.

jg4xchamp

That has to be one of the stupidest replies I have received. I can't fault ME2's plot because a movie did it better back in the 1950's? Thanks, but no. ME2's plot sucks. This is not wit. This is my stance. If you think I'm a dickhole for having it than more power to you.

It certainly did, if that's the case. Because even when I re-read it I don't see the point. All I know is ME2's story was bad.

[QUOTE="edo-tensei"]

*stuff*

jg4xchamp

Let's see they've made one of the best trilogy's this gen, they've made one of the best DnD style games this gen (which has been lacked a lot this gen), looks like they did pretty well from my perspective.

Yes Swtor did poorly and so did DA2, two mediocre achievements compared to their biggest achievements this gen is a no contest.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

That has to be one of the stupidest replies I have received. I can't fault ME2's plot because a movie did it better back in the 1950's? Thanks, but no. ME2's plot sucks. This is not wit. This is my stance. If you think I'm a dickhole for having it than more power to you.

NeonNinja

It certainly did, if that's the case. Because even when I re-read it I don't see the point. All I know is ME2's story was bad.

I can appreciate RPG combat when it's done to correctly,let me rephrase: If it was done correctly.

jg4xchamp

It is such a darn shame we almost never see that :(

Combat in ME was improved with each iteration due to each new iteration being less RPGish, doesnt change the fact that combat in each game was utter ****.

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] No, it means you f*cking missed the point. Like that sh1t went right the f*ck over your head.

jg4xchamp

It certainly did, if that's the case. Because even when I re-read it I don't see the point. All I know is ME2's story was bad.

Right, but Mass Effect 2 doesn't really pull off that story well anyway. I understand that it's a story about recruiting a team to stop a threat that most people think is unstoppable. It doesn't change the fact that Seven Samurai did it really well while Mass Effect 2 did not. There's nothing wrong with the story itself, but the plot/narrative is not well done.

You can say "here's the story idea" but the execution of that story matters more. For me Mass Effect 2 fell flat, and much of that also came from the Suicide Mission itself just being really anticlimactic and short.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

I can appreciate RPG combat when it's done to correctly,let me rephrase: If it was done correctly.

Maroxad

It is such a darn shame we almost never see that :(

Combat in ME was improved with each iteration due to each new iteration being less RPGish, doesnt change the fact that combat in each game was utter ****.

Very true.

Mass Effect's strength lies in its game world and concept. I haven't played 3 to know if it fixes what I hated in 2, but I loved the first game because I just found it so interesting to be lost in such a fully-realized world.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

I can appreciate RPG combat when it's done to correctly,let me rephrase: If it was done correctly.

Maroxad

It is such a darn shame we almost never see that :(

Combat in ME was improved with each iteration due to each new iteration being less RPGish, doesnt change the fact that combat in each game was utter ****.

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

I can appreciate RPG combat when it's done to correctly,let me rephrase: If it was done correctly.

jg4xchamp

It is such a darn shame we almost never see that :(

Combat in ME was improved with each iteration due to each new iteration being less RPGish, doesnt change the fact that combat in each game was utter ****.

And that is where (almost) everyone gets it wrong when it comes to ARPGs.

They take an action game, and tack on RPG elements that only result in making the game poorly tweaked and unbalanced. But hey, we have superpowers, and it is AN RPG*, so the bad action is excused! :P

*RPG standing for Remarkably Profitable Game.

Honestly, adding RPG elements to an action game is harder than it seems, you cant just add them and call it a day. You also have to finely tweak the RPG elements so they do NOT detract from the action elements. An action game should never be solely about the numbers.

Demons/Dark Souls, Mount&Blade, Dark Messiah of Might&Magic got it right.

I really need to play Dark Souls. That game has way too much praise for me to ignore it.

Don't hate the developer. Hate the publisher.

...Unless, of course, the developer is independent, then you can hate them all you want.

The__Kraken

Besides straight up saying that ME had a plot that was essentially 7 samurai, he also stated that like 7 samurai and the magnificent 7 the actual plot wasn't necessarily the strong point. Plots in each of those films were actually pretty limited, as much as the films and the drama was carried by the setting and characters. Which would be right in line with what was done in ME2, and the direction ME2 took.

In an example I understand better. Mad Men. Not the greatest in terms of plot lines, but some of the most compelling TV based solely on the setting and characters. As for his analogy, Liquid analogies, they're almost never good.

jg4xchamp

ME2 however doesn't have nearly strong stakes, and constantly loses sight of this as the plot unfolds. And it isn't helped that it hits that very gamey writers nightmare scenario, that anything ludic, specifically Shepard being a husk-character absolutely clashes with a highly architected and written plot, as well as character interplay - which comes down to Bioware (as most developers typically do) emulating film in format and structure. But for what it is, it works, and that's due to the characters personalities and their subplots shining through.

It's characterisation and character interplay - also trying to work out a storytelling structure native to interactivity - that designers/writers/creators are struggling with at the moment, and everything still in the early days in terms of actually finding something native to games. We can simulate how the universe works and a bullet accurately piercing someone's skull, but we still can't simulate a conversation properly.Hell I'm finishing up a thesis and project about this kind of thing on my other monitor; it's all pretty interesting.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]Besides straight up saying that ME had a plot that was essentially 7 samurai, he also stated that like 7 samurai and the magnificent 7 the actual plot wasn't necessarily the strong point. Plots in each of those films were actually pretty limited, as much as the films and the drama was carried by the setting and characters. Which would be right in line with what was done in ME2, and the direction ME2 took.

In an example I understand better. Mad Men. Not the greatest in terms of plot lines, but some of the most compelling TV based solely on the setting and characters. As for his analogy, Liquid analogies, they're almost never good.

skrat_01

ME2 however doesn't have nearly strong stakes, and constantly loses sight of this as the plot unfolds. And it isn't helped that it hits that very gamey writers nightmare scenario, that anything ludic, specifically Shepard being a husk-character absolutely clashes with a highly architected and written plot, as well as character interplay - which comes down to Bioware (as most developers typically do) emulating film in format and structure. But for what it is, it works, and that's due to the characters personalities and their subplots shining through.

It's characterisation and character interplay - also trying to work out a storytelling structure native to interactivity - that designers/writers/creators are struggling with at the moment, and everything still in the early days in terms of actually finding something native to games. We can simulate how the universe works and a bullet accurately piercing someone's skull, but we still can't simulate a conversation properly.Hell I'm finishing up a thesis and project about this kind of thing on my other monitor; it's all pretty interesting.

And that is where (almost) everyone gets it wrong when it comes to ARPGs.

They take an action game, and tack on RPG elements that only result in making the game poorly tweaked and unbalanced.Maroxad

*RPG standing for Remarkably Profitable Game.

Honestly, adding RPG elements to an action game is harder than it seems, you cant just add them and call it a day. You also have to finely tweak the RPG elements so they do NOT detract from the action elements. An action game should never be solely about the numbers.

Demons/Dark Souls, Mount&Blade, Dark Messiah of Might&Magic got it right.

I really don't feel any hate for the developer. I don't see why somebody would use such a strong emotion to describe a video game developer, That being said, I'm more careful about games I buy that are made by BioWare. After Dragon Age:Origins (one of my favorite games of all time) and Mass Effect, anything with the BioWare tag on it was an instant purchase for me. I ended up being really disappointed by Dragon Age 2 and SWTOR. The Mass Effect series was meh to me as well. I felt like with Mass Effect they tried to be both an RPG and a Shooter. The result of that was a poor FPS with shallow RPG elements. That being said the storyline still saved the series for me.

I think Dragon Age 2 and SWTOR hurt the BioWare brand some in my opinion. Personality, I don't buy a BioWare title until I see some reviews first.

Bioware have always been kinda iffy for me. Mass Effect is okay and I got no interest in Dragon Age. The first was such a bore that I didn't even bother to play the second one.

Hate is always silly when it comes to videogames lol.Sushiglutton

Nothing wrong with not liking a game or hating it.

[QUOTE="skrat_01"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]Besides straight up saying that ME had a plot that was essentially 7 samurai, he also stated that like 7 samurai and the magnificent 7 the actual plot wasn't necessarily the strong point. Plots in each of those films were actually pretty limited, as much as the films and the drama was carried by the setting and characters. Which would be right in line with what was done in ME2, and the direction ME2 took.

In an example I understand better. Mad Men. Not the greatest in terms of plot lines, but some of the most compelling TV based solely on the setting and characters. As for his analogy, Liquid analogies, they're almost never good.

jg4xchamp

ME2 however doesn't have nearly strong stakes, and constantly loses sight of this as the plot unfolds. And it isn't helped that it hits that very gamey writers nightmare scenario, that anything ludic, specifically Shepard being a husk-character absolutely clashes with a highly architected and written plot, as well as character interplay - which comes down to Bioware (as most developers typically do) emulating film in format and structure. But for what it is, it works, and that's due to the characters personalities and their subplots shining through.

It's characterisation and character interplay - also trying to work out a storytelling structure native to interactivity - that designers/writers/creators are struggling with at the moment, and everything still in the early days in terms of actually finding something native to games. We can simulate how the universe works and a bullet accurately piercing someone's skull, but we still can't simulate a conversation properly.Hell I'm finishing up a thesis and project about this kind of thing on my other monitor; it's all pretty interesting.

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

Just a headsup, I've seen them. And 13 Assassins which is also awesome.

Just a headsup. They're all better than Mass Effect 2.

NeonNinja

Good. So you know that you can't fault Mass Effect 2 for it's lacklustre plot because that's not the direction in went in. It's like faulting a woman for having no penis.

If you want to be witty, at least have good arguments to back yourself up. Coz if you don't, you look like a dickhole.

so you cant criticise a story driven rpg for a lacklustre (understatement) plot...? ok then :roll:

BioWare is still liked in general. You are just using a couple of threads and some loud neanderthals as a template. As is the case with everything, those who are content with something will just move on and those who aren't will make sure their opinion is heard by everyone.

BioWare is still liked in general. You are just using a couple of threads and some loud neanderthals as a template. As is the case with everything, those who are content with something will just move on and those who aren't will make sure their opinion is heard by everyone.

svenus97

Not saying anything = being ok with it?

:lol: Just another day in System Wars.

[QUOTE="svenus97"]

BioWare is still liked in general. You are just using a couple of threads and some loud neanderthals as a template. As is the case with everything, those who are content with something will just move on and those who aren't will make sure their opinion is heard by everyone.

N30F3N1X

Not saying anything = being ok with it?

:lol: Just another day in System Wars.

They were never that good to begin with.jg4xchamp

.

[QUOTE="svenus97"]

BioWare is still liked in general. You are just using a couple of threads and some loud neanderthals as a template. As is the case with everything, those who are content with something will just move on and those who aren't will make sure their opinion is heard by everyone.

N30F3N1X

Not saying anything = being ok with it?

:lol: Just another day in System Wars.

Mass Effect was incredible, Mass Effect 2 is among the all time greats. The trilogy is collectively one of the most staggering achievements in games and storytelling. Dragon Age: Origins was wonderful, and might be one of the greatest RPGs ever made.charizard1605

You can't be serious :lol: