I Just Beat GTA IV I Now Know Why The 360 Version Is The Definitive Version

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tmntPunchout

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#51 tmntPunchout
Member since 2007 • 3770 Posts

[QUOTE="dr-venkman"]lol, I'm already bored of GTA4 since I beat it a week ago. There's nothing to do once you finish everything. It was a hell of a ride while it lasted though. I've already started playing CoD4 again. And within 4 months I'll have plenty of games that I would rather play then a ten hour DLC add on. MGS4 and Ninja Gaiden to just name 2. The only thing making the 360 version definitive is a fanboy calling it that. R* did not say the 360 version was definitive, unless you take the words (Which means not even showing the whole sentence) out of context. Then it will certainly sound like they did. But leave it up to fanboys to twist what people say and only give part of the whole article. ReverseCycology

http://www.thebitbag.com/2008/02/23/...-on-gtaiv-dlc/

I posted my bullets from the Microsoft Blogger Breakfast the other day and some info about GTAIV was taken out of context…well sort of. People are claiming that Microsoft announced the game would be as big as Vice City/San Andreas. I posted comments on some of the bullets and putting 2 and 2 together I came up with some facts and opinion on GTAIV. Here are the facts:

* Rockstar has announced that the 360 version will be the definitive version

* Microsoft said at the breakfast that no other platform will get this DLC. It's exclusive to them and to them only. From what was said, and Brian Crecente even questioned it, Playstation 3 won't be getting any additional content for GTAIV. This could mean that they get it later or they get completely different content. We don't know at this time.

* Microsoft paid $50 million for the content. If you haven't been in a coma you should know that entire games have been developed for less than $50 million dollars. If you think that the $50 million is just for some new cars, characters and ice cream truck side missions, you are horribly mistaken.

Now for the opinions:

* GTA3 was the first in a trilogy of games. Vice City and San Andreas used the same engine that GTA3 was built on.

* Rockstar stated that if the DLC is successful on the 360, it will give them a new outlet for releasing content. A monkey could figure out that with GTAIV, they could release a GTAIV Palm Beach Stories and GTAIV New Jack City games strictly through downloads

* $50 million is in Rockstars pockets right now. This is before ANY game sales. It's almost free money. Rockstar knows good business and this is good business. Just like it was good business when Sony paid them for a 1 year exclusivity on GTA3. Microsoft knows that GTA3 is the game that pretty much gave the PS2 so much success. They aren't just gonna sit back and let it happen again. Now it's their turn. Who knows, with GTAV Sony may get the jump on MS. Touche!

* You can expect this content to be huge. I'd say several gigs worth. Since there's no manufacturing cost involved and the game could cost between $19-$29 dollars. Again, we aren't talking new car and music downloads. This DLC will most likely be a huge assortment of missions and new areas opened up. It may even be a brand new storyline using the GTAIV engine. Also, you know that with GTA3, Vice City and San Andreas were released shortly after the first game. Expect the same to happen with GTAIV.

* If you have both the 360 and the PS3 and you choose the PS3 version, you will be missing out on some great content. Either way, both versions of the original game will be awesome and no one should feel bad about that.

Link had "404 error - not found".. better delete this post quick.

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Deevoshun

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#52 Deevoshun
Member since 2003 • 868 Posts

By the time DLC comes out, everybody will be tired of GTA 4 and will move on to other games.

Blame the short attention span of Americans. DLC is out so what everybody is playing Madden and NBA 09.

Not to mention a few people here said they were already bored of GTA 4.

Ninten007

So when GT5 comes out there should be an option to skip right to the middle because you already played half of the game right?

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John_Keyes

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#53 John_Keyes
Member since 2004 • 55 Posts

No spoilers here. Anyway, I just completed the main story for GTA IV and wow it was awesome but it did leave me wanting more. Sure I'm going to start a new game and choose the different paths, sure I could continue my game and find all the hidden content, stunt jumps, etc., and sure the replay value increases like triple times with the 360 version because of achievements, but in the end I still wanted more!

Who would've thought that you would want more missions in a GTA game! People have said things like "oh who plays GTA for the missions anyway, you play for all the cool stuff you could do, etc." I remember a couple of the GameSpot users (mostly damage controlling cows) who said those exact words, but I'll saved them from the embarrassment of being wrong. Because this time around the main draw for GTA IV is the stories of the missions.

So since the PS3 will not have any DLC of any kind anytime this year and won't ever touch the exclusive episodic content that MS sealed the deal for, in conclusion, the Xbox 360 version of GTA IV is the definitive version is confirmed. More missions, more game, more content, more winfest for the 360.

ReverseCycology

The superior version of course, I mean, you get what you pay for...

But me personally don't care for achievements, paying 60 dollars a year, also, the PS3 version IS getting eclusive content just not on the level 360's has, only because of the extra 50 million MS payed Rockstar...

I just want to be able to pick up and play online, not pay for it, have less dlc content without having to pay for online in order to access it, yadda yadda yadda, long story short it's all about what you prefer...

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Floppy_Jim

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#54 Floppy_Jim
Member since 2007 • 25933 Posts
[QUOTE="Floppy_Jim"][QUOTE="carljohnson3456"]

[QUOTE="bigmouthkid"]So the TC posts crap like this all the time?carljohnson3456

The best thing about it is, he makes threads like this, and then completely ignores all the legit posters who counter his "argument". He never responds to legit responses.

True, he's the worst Lemming in this place. Or maybe he's Aaron Greenburg in disguise?

:lol:

Well ya know, Reverse is always talking about how he has a PS3... and so does Greenburg!


Notice the DS3 and PS3 in the background? lol.

:lol: WTF? That's like Kaz Hirai being seen with an Xbox!

Pretty odd, considering his gigantic tirade against the PS3 a few weeks ago.

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dr-venkman

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#55 dr-venkman
Member since 2006 • 1561 Posts

[QUOTE="dr-venkman"]lol, I'm already bored of GTA4 since I beat it a week ago. There's nothing to do once you finish everything. It was a hell of a ride while it lasted though. I've already started playing CoD4 again. And within 4 months I'll have plenty of games that I would rather play then a ten hour DLC add on. MGS4 and Ninja Gaiden to just name 2. The only thing making the 360 version definitive is a fanboy calling it that. R* did not say the 360 version was definitive, unless you take the words (Which means not even showing the whole sentence) out of context. Then it will certainly sound like they did. But leave it up to fanboys to twist what people say and only give part of the whole article. ReverseCycology

http://www.thebitbag.com/2008/02/23/...-on-gtaiv-dlc/

I posted my bullets from the Microsoft Blogger Breakfast the other day and some info about GTAIV was taken out of context…well sort of. People are claiming that Microsoft announced the game would be as big as Vice City/San Andreas. I posted comments on some of the bullets and putting 2 and 2 together I came up with some facts and opinion on GTAIV. Here are the facts:

* Rockstar has announced that the 360 version will be the definitive version

* Microsoft said at the breakfast that no other platform will get this DLC. It's exclusive to them and to them only. From what was said, and Brian Crecente even questioned it, Playstation 3 won't be getting any additional content for GTAIV. This could mean that they get it later or they get completely different content. We don't know at this time.

* Microsoft paid $50 million for the content. If you haven't been in a coma you should know that entire games have been developed for less than $50 million dollars. If you think that the $50 million is just for some new cars, characters and ice cream truck side missions, you are horribly mistaken.

Now for the opinions:

* GTA3 was the first in a trilogy of games. Vice City and San Andreas used the same engine that GTA3 was built on.

* Rockstar stated that if the DLC is successful on the 360, it will give them a new outlet for releasing content. A monkey could figure out that with GTAIV, they could release a GTAIV Palm Beach Stories and GTAIV New Jack City games strictly through downloads

* $50 million is in Rockstars pockets right now. This is before ANY game sales. It's almost free money. Rockstar knows good business and this is good business. Just like it was good business when Sony paid them for a 1 year exclusivity on GTA3. Microsoft knows that GTA3 is the game that pretty much gave the PS2 so much success. They aren't just gonna sit back and let it happen again. Now it's their turn. Who knows, with GTAV Sony may get the jump on MS. Touche!

* You can expect this content to be huge. I'd say several gigs worth. Since there's no manufacturing cost involved and the game could cost between $19-$29 dollars. Again, we aren't talking new car and music downloads. This DLC will most likely be a huge assortment of missions and new areas opened up. It may even be a brand new storyline using the GTAIV engine. Also, you know that with GTA3, Vice City and San Andreas were released shortly after the first game. Expect the same to happen with GTAIV.

* If you have both the 360 and the PS3 and you choose the PS3 version, you will be missing out on some great content. Either way, both versions of the original game will be awesome and no one should feel bad about that.

What a link! Hate to sound like a nerd... But you just got self owned.
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carljohnson3456

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#56 carljohnson3456
Member since 2007 • 12489 Posts
:lol: WTF? That's like Kaz Hirai being seen with an Xbox!

Pretty odd, considering his gigantic tirade against the PS3 a few weeks ago.

Floppy_Jim

It happens all the time with that guy...



Notice the DS3 right in front of him and the PS3 wedged under the HDTV? lol Looks like a stack of PS3 games behind that coffee too, lol.

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Floppy_Jim

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#57 Floppy_Jim
Member since 2007 • 25933 Posts
[QUOTE="Floppy_Jim"]:lol: WTF? That's like Kaz Hirai being seen with an Xbox!

Pretty odd, considering his gigantic tirade against the PS3 a few weeks ago.

carljohnson3456

It happens all the time with that guy...



Notice the DS3 right in front of him and the PS3 wedged under the HDTV? lol Looks like a stack of PS3 games behind that coffee too, lol.

:lol: That's not very good for PR! I guess he owns a PS3? Where did you get these pictures from?

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carljohnson3456

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#58 carljohnson3456
Member since 2007 • 12489 Posts
[QUOTE="carljohnson3456"][QUOTE="Floppy_Jim"]:lol: WTF? That's like Kaz Hirai being seen with an Xbox!

Pretty odd, considering his gigantic tirade against the PS3 a few weeks ago.

Floppy_Jim

It happens all the time with that guy...



Notice the DS3 right in front of him and the PS3 wedged under the HDTV? lol Looks like a stack of PS3 games behind that coffee too, lol.

:lol: That's not very good for PR! I guess he owns a PS3? Where did you get these pictures from?

I was the photographer... 8)

Just kidding, just from google. lol. Right click the picture and view the properties to see the exact link of them.

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Vectah_Sigma

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#59 Vectah_Sigma
Member since 2007 • 1104 Posts

By the time DLC comes out, everybody will be tired of GTA 4 and will move on to other games.

Blame the short attention span of Americans. DLC is out so what everybody is playing Madden and NBA 09.

Not to mention a few people here said they were already bored of GTA 4.

Ninten007

i know that i will be.

for me, madden is the cause of me not playing a lot of games

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AgentA-Mi6

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#60 AgentA-Mi6
Member since 2006 • 16734 Posts
Yeah, the Dlc is awesome but I dont i'd buy it if it was released for the Ps3 version, I didn't even bough the new maps for warhawk. The only game I want DLC for is mgs and that Unnamed MMORPG SE is making for the Ps3/Pc.
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-Renegade

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#61 -Renegade
Member since 2007 • 8340 Posts
[QUOTE="AlphaRail"]

[QUOTE="Floppy_Jim"]Everyone knows the 360 version has achievements and DLC, why did you even bother making this thread? Do Microsoft pay you to write this bilge?Floppy_Jim

No, this guy is just a fake manticore who is really a lemming, he even posted a picture of his setup once...with no PS3 to be found. Also, you don't know there won't be DLC for the PS3, they never ruled it out.

Yeah, I'm familiar with this guy's post history. Pretty sad how he pretends to own a PS3 just so he can bash it, it's his lame little routine.

Anyway, I'd be surprised if the PS3 version doesn't get it's own DLC, I can see it being announced at E3. But I'm really not interested, I'm not a fan of this DLC fad.

Hahaha reminds me of Bruton_NYC he always claimed he had a PS3 and 360. He used to always praise the PS3 though and bash the 360 and started off all his threads the same way with his 50 accounts. :lol: "I own PS3 and 360."

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clintos59

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#62 clintos59
Member since 2008 • 1320 Posts

This is what seperates the fans of the game from the fanboys. I mean can you imagine if games like MGS4 or MGO announced some kind of DLC to come out a season after and these fanboys saying things like I don't like DLC anyway or I've moved on to better games, what!?! Having the option to support the game you enjoy is better than not having that option at all.

So if LBP offers you DLC that includes new stuff for building your levels, you wouldn't be interested at all? Or what if Killzone 2 offers you new maps, you wouldn't be interested at all? Give me a break.

ReverseCycology

U act like everyone who buys a game is going to buy DLC for it to, lol. Sorry bro but even the maps for call of duty I didnt buy, because I played the game too much and got bored of it when rainbow six vegas came along, so I didnt feel like wasting money on maps I wasnt even going to play much. Same with GTA4, the game was great and had a good story and was fun, but I dont find the online that much fun, im more of a tactical type person when it comes to online games. This is why I am waiting patiently for MGS4. :)

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thegoldenpoo

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#63 thegoldenpoo
Member since 2005 • 5136 Posts
i don't buy DLC. its a non-issue for me. BTW im a 360 owner.
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thrones

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#64 thrones
Member since 2004 • 12178 Posts
[QUOTE="cablemodemx2"][QUOTE="ReverseCycology"]

...and sure the replay value increases like triple times with the 360 version because of achievements...

Andrew_Xavier

Heh, this has got to be a joke comment. No one's actually lack-witted enough to actually think this.

No one even cares about achievements, I'm an achievement discriminator though, honestly, if I see 10k+ gamerscore points on this forum or anywhere (I literally never check people's scores unless they are in their sigs, never check on xbl), I tend to think "Hmm, no gf/bf/whatever their preference may be for that one."

I honestly feel that achievement hording = massive hole IRL that you are trying to fill = no romantic partner, possibly ever:?

I have 10K achievements, why do you hurt me so? :(

I'm probably the least achievement whoring out of my friends, I just have the shortest attention span so I move on from games within a week or two.

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Broman6015

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#65 Broman6015
Member since 2007 • 1381 Posts
I'm done with downloadable content to be honest. Never has been worth it. Doesn't matter what the game is.
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vicmackey39

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#66 vicmackey39
Member since 2008 • 2416 Posts
cows already know that the 360 version of GTA 4 is better, same as every other multiplatform title
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PS3_3DO

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#67 PS3_3DO
Member since 2006 • 10976 Posts

Ah, a lemming touting why GTA4 is the definitive version, because of DLC. Did it really take you beating the game to realise you want more GTA4?

I have both PS3 and 360, and I got the PS3 version. I dont regret it, and DLC wont change that. I love GTA4, it's a great, great game, but when I beat it, I can get all the GTA replay value I want by starting the game over, multiplayer, or just jacking around Liberty City.

I'm sure come this fall, in between SOCOM: Confrontation, RFOM2, and Gears of War 2... I dont think GTA4 DLC will really be missed.

carljohnson3456

Yeah but it could be the DLC has a new city like maybe Vice City. :)

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thrones

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#68 thrones
Member since 2004 • 12178 Posts
[QUOTE="carljohnson3456"]

Ah, a lemming touting why GTA4 is the definitive version, because of DLC. Did it really take you beating the game to realise you want more GTA4?

I have both PS3 and 360, and I got the PS3 version. I dont regret it, and DLC wont change that. I love GTA4, it's a great, great game, but when I beat it, I can get all the GTA replay value I want by starting the game over, multiplayer, or just jacking around Liberty City.

I'm sure come this fall, in between SOCOM: Confrontation, RFOM2, and Gears of War 2... I dont think GTA4 DLC will really be missed.

PS3_3DO

Yeah but it could be the DLC has a new city like maybe Vice City. :)

They could release that as a full release and earn $200 million like GTAIV did to be honest :|

for $50 million they're not getting anything that could qualify a full GTA game. Maybe a full Shadowrun game, but not full GTA game.

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PS3_3DO

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#69 PS3_3DO
Member since 2006 • 10976 Posts
[QUOTE="PS3_3DO"][QUOTE="carljohnson3456"]

Ah, a lemming touting why GTA4 is the definitive version, because of DLC. Did it really take you beating the game to realise you want more GTA4?

I have both PS3 and 360, and I got the PS3 version. I dont regret it, and DLC wont change that. I love GTA4, it's a great, great game, but when I beat it, I can get all the GTA replay value I want by starting the game over, multiplayer, or just jacking around Liberty City.

I'm sure come this fall, in between SOCOM: Confrontation, RFOM2, and Gears of War 2... I dont think GTA4 DLC will really be missed.

thrones

Yeah but it could be the DLC has a new city like maybe Vice City. :)

They could release that as a full release and earn $200 million like GTAIV did to be honest :|

for $50 million they're not getting anything that could qualify a full GTA game. Maybe a full Shadowrun game, but not full GTA game.

Yeah I agree there aren't going to go crazy and make a whole new city. Still it could be a large Island.

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Vasichko

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#70 Vasichko
Member since 2004 • 2565 Posts
Im already bored of GTA and have started playing COD4 again.
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CiocioE1E

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#71 CiocioE1E
Member since 2007 • 235 Posts
is custom soundtracks hearable by other players over the internet?
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SHuN_G0Ku

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#72 SHuN_G0Ku
Member since 2008 • 480 Posts

imo, cows will even have a better DLC next month or better yet forget about GTA4 cuz of this guy...

snake in ps3 box

edit>

sorry peepz, i just love this pic :)

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deuteris

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#73 deuteris
Member since 2007 • 77 Posts

While I think the TC is bragging too much about the 360's GTAIV advantages, the damage control I'm reading in this thread is embarrassing.

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ReverseCycology

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#74 ReverseCycology
Member since 2006 • 9717 Posts

While I think the TC is bragging too much about the 360's GTAIV advantages, the damage control I'm reading in this thread is embarrassing.

deuteris

I agree.

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Ninja-Hippo

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#75 Ninja-Hippo
Member since 2008 • 23434 Posts

If the DLC is just more missions, i'm sure as hell not getting it. The missions in GTA are just a chore to complete so you can finish the story. They're all generic combinations of "shoot these people", "chase this person" or "deliver this package". And there are so many of them. I was relieved to finally be done with it.

The only mission on the game i actually found to be noticeably enjoyable was:

[spoiler] The bank job [/spoiler]

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AgentA-Mi6

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#76 AgentA-Mi6
Member since 2006 • 16734 Posts
cows already know that the 360 version of GTA 4 is better, same as every other multiplatform titlevicmackey39
Really?
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Ninja-Hippo

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#77 Ninja-Hippo
Member since 2008 • 23434 Posts

Also; is anyone else kinda surprised at the number of people setting themselves up for disappointment with the DLC? >_> "It might be a whole new city, like Vice City of San Andreas!"

This autumn? Yes i'm sure they're going to create all of that in four or five months. It's not like it took them YEARS to make the last game.

Realistically, i'm not even expecting a new island. I think the DLC will take place entirely in the city already in the game. I'm just expecting new story, hence why they're referred to as "episodes". Just a new character to do jobs for, and perhaps new weapons/cars/clothes.

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SHuN_G0Ku

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#78 SHuN_G0Ku
Member since 2008 • 480 Posts

[QUOTE="vicmackey39"]cows already know that the 360 version of GTA 4 is better, same as every other multiplatform titleAgentA-Mi6
Really?

didn't you know?..

lemming logic >>> developer logic

gotta get used to it..

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NitaraPwnzU

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#79 NitaraPwnzU
Member since 2007 • 1470 Posts

milkage after already paying $60 bucks for a medicore experience? not my idea of money well spent.-Renegade

LOL says the guy who in his signature has GT5 Prologue... You are full of failure with that comment :D

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wooooode

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#80 wooooode
Member since 2002 • 16666 Posts
You act like it is free, and they have not even released a price for it yet.
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dr-venkman

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#81 dr-venkman
Member since 2006 • 1561 Posts
[QUOTE="deuteris"]

While I think the TC is bragging too much about the 360's GTAIV advantages, the damage control I'm reading in this thread is embarrassing.

ReverseCycology

I agree.

Why do I get the idea "deuteris" is an alt account? Only 37 posts, low level, private profile, and woke up an old thread that was no more on the main page, and within 2 minutes ReverseCycology favorably responds? And yet he doesn't respond to anyone else? He's having a conversation with himself! SW is truly crazy.
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terdoo

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#82 terdoo
Member since 2006 • 5306 Posts

Ok you put your money towards DLC for GTA IV but i think i use my money and buy Saints row 2.aroxx_ab

Saints Row 2 looks like crap.

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Jack_Bauer07

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#83 Jack_Bauer07
Member since 2006 • 1141 Posts
That's nice, but the 45+ hours I've spent playing the game are enough for me.
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Bluestorm-Kalas

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#84 Bluestorm-Kalas
Member since 2006 • 13073 Posts

Welcome to thread #7835783758 on GTAIV dlc.

carlisledavid79
Dammit! I only counted 7835783757! I missed one! :cry:
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deuteris

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#85 deuteris
Member since 2007 • 77 Posts

Why do I get the idea "deuteris" is an alt account? Only 37 posts, low level, private profile, and woke up an old thread that was no more on the main page, and within 2 minutes ReverseCycology favorably responds? And yet he doesn't respond to anyone else? He's having a conversation with himself! SW is truly crazy.

The thread was on the main page, and your idea is wrong.

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dr-venkman

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#86 dr-venkman
Member since 2006 • 1561 Posts

The thread was on the main page, and your idea is wrong.

deuteris
If you say so...
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vicmackey39

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#87 vicmackey39
Member since 2008 • 2416 Posts

Really?
AgentA-Mi6

Well, most of them anyway

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WhatTheDunk

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#88 WhatTheDunk
Member since 2008 • 338 Posts

No spoilers here. Anyway, I just completed the main story for GTA IV and wow it was awesome but it did leave me wanting more. Sure I'm going to start a new game and choose the different paths, sure I could continue my game and find all the hidden content, stunt jumps, etc., and sure the replay value increases like triple times with the 360 version because of achievements, but in the end I still wanted more!

Who would've thought that you would want more missions in a GTA game! People have said things like "oh who plays GTA for the missions anyway, you play for all the cool stuff you could do, etc." I remember a couple of the GameSpot users (mostly damage controlling cows) who said those exact words, but I'll saved them from the embarrassment of being wrong. Because this time around the main draw for GTA IV is the stories of the missions.

So since the PS3 will not have any DLC of any kind anytime this year and won't ever touch the exclusive episodic content that MS sealed the deal for, in conclusion, the Xbox 360 version of GTA IV is the definitive version is confirmed. More missions, more game, more content, more winfest for the 360.

ReverseCycology

Cool, didn't know GTAIV for 360 had exclusive episodes, and I own it. :D

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rolo107

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#89 rolo107
Member since 2007 • 5469 Posts

Welcome to thread #7835783758 on GTAIV dlc.

carlisledavid79

Well, I think it is a pretty big deal. It was the reason I bought the 360 version rather then PS3.

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HAZE-Unit

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#90 HAZE-Unit
Member since 2007 • 10564 Posts

No spoilers here. Anyway, I just completed the main story for GTA IV and wow it was awesome but it did leave me wanting more. Sure I'm going to start a new game and choose the different paths, sure I could continue my game and find all the hidden content, stunt jumps, etc., and sure the replay value increases like triple times with the 360 version because of achievements, but in the end I still wanted more!

Who would've thought that you would want more missions in a GTA game! People have said things like "oh who plays GTA for the missions anyway, you play for all the cool stuff you could do, etc." I remember a couple of the GameSpot users (mostly damage controlling cows) who said those exact words, but I'll saved them from the embarrassment of being wrong. Because this time around the main draw for GTA IV is the stories of the missions.

So since the PS3 will not have any DLC of any kind anytime this year and won't ever touch the exclusive episodic content that MS sealed the deal for, in conclusion, the Xbox 360 version of GTA IV is the definitive version is confirmed. More missions, more game, more content, more winfest for the 360.

ReverseCycology

What a coincidence!!! I have both 360 and PS3 and I chose the PS3 version because I thought it is the definitive version for me, in a matter of fact, over 1M thought exactly like me.

Btw, what is your PSN ID so I could play with you whatever you bought for your PS3.

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HAZE-Unit

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#91 HAZE-Unit
Member since 2007 • 10564 Posts
[QUOTE="deuteris"]

The thread was on the main page, and your idea is wrong.

dr-venkman

If you say so...

Both profiles set to be private. :lol:

This thread going to be funny.

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Pariah_001

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#92 Pariah_001
Member since 2003 • 4850 Posts

Yea, man it would be like shilling a ton of money for a demo ... oh wait ...blue_hazy_basic

Prologue isn't a demo. It isn't even a glorified demo.

Nice try though.

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MojondeVACA

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#93 MojondeVACA
Member since 2008 • 3916 Posts

[QUOTE="blue_hazy_basic"][QUOTE="-Renegade"]milkage after already paying $60 bucks for a medicore experience? not my idea of money well spent.-Renegade

Yea, man it would be like shilling a ton of money for a demo ... oh wait ...

At least I am enjoying it. And this demo is better then 95% of racing games out there now.



But not better than forza 2.