I think it's safe to say that Bioware has dethroned Square.

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Timstuff

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#1 Timstuff
Member since 2002 • 26840 Posts

Square's games have been getting increasingly linear and have been taking more and more away from the aspects of player-driven narrative and exploration, and it's been getting worse ever since Final Fantasy VIII. In Final Fantasy VIII, you were pretty much doomed to have the exact same story no matter how you played, even if you hated it. Example: you may have thought Quistis was awesome and that Rinoa was an annoying, clingy, self-absorbed brat who just wants to make daddy mad, but no matter how hard you try, Squall is always going to end up with Rinoa, and he's going to act like a douche towards Quistis. That's the only way Square wants you to play, and if you don't like it then too bad.

In a Bioware game though, you can play however you want. Don't like character X? You don't have to be friends with them if you don't want. Like girl A more than girl B? That's fine, because you can pick either, or even go with girl C if you don't like either of them, or just make your character celebate. Is your character a goody-two-shoes and you don't like it? Then stop making goody-two-shoes choices during conversations, and start making darker ones. Don't want your character to be a douche? Then make him act nicer. You don't have to bang your head on the coffee table going "Why do I have to play as a character as moronic as Squall?" because the character is whoever you want them to be.

In FFXIII, Square has actually taken a few steps BACKWARDS from their previous games by removing actual exploration from their games and replacing it with linear paths through non-interactive environments. At best you may find a fork in the path that leads to an item box, but that is mearly a tangent in your workflow, not exploration. Square's ethos with FFXIII seems to have been "Make the game as efficient to play as possible, so that theyre's not much coming in between the player and the story we've written." The problem is, the story isn't even that good, and on top of that the player doesn't have an influence over it.

To paraphrase that dude from Bioware, "You can put a J in front of it, but Final Fantasy XIII is not an RPG." This may sound like an extreme stance, I don't think it's without merit. The first electronic RPGs were an attempt to make a computerized clone of Dungeons and Dragons. What these early games lacked though, was the ability to actually role play-- that is, a conversation between the player and the game master, who takes on the role of an NPC, and must interpret the player's dialogue as per what will make sense within the scenario he is overseeing. It's taken many years for RPGs to come close to recapturing interactivity like that, and yet Square seems set on moving even further away from it, with as little player input over the narrative as possible. If the "RPG" in "JRPG" no longer stays for "Role Playing Game," then what is it?

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akbar13

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#2 akbar13
Member since 2009 • 2186 Posts

Bioware dethroned Square with Baldur's Gate 2.

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2-10-08

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#3 2-10-08
Member since 2008 • 2775 Posts

lol stories in games are going to suck for the next ten years at least. I want a game that I can jump right into after not playing for a while and still have fun.

Linear gameplay will always beat nonlinear.

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Miroku32

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#4 Miroku32
Member since 2006 • 8666 Posts
That has been known a long time ago, no need to post the obvious TC.
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DarkLink77

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#5 DarkLink77
Member since 2004 • 32731 Posts

Square dethroned Square by making crappy games. BioWare has nothing to do with it, though they have had quality on their side for quite a while now.

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Arach666

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#6 Arach666
Member since 2009 • 23285 Posts

Bioware dethroned Square with Baldur's Gate 2.

akbar13
Pretty much this,it happened a long time ago.
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Kashiwaba

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#7 Kashiwaba
Member since 2005 • 8059 Posts

And PD has dethroned Epic games.

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Giancar

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#8 Giancar
Member since 2006 • 19160 Posts
As far as quality goes, yes by a wide margin nothing touches the old Squaresoft though IMO :(
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Timstuff

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#9 Timstuff
Member since 2002 • 26840 Posts

Square dethroned Square by making crappy games.

DarkLink77

:(

It didn't have to be this way. At least part of Square recognizes the importance of player-customize gaming, or else FFXI would not exist. Unfortunately, Square's offline RPGs seem conflicted in what direction they want to take. And really, I think FFVIII was the beginning of the end when it came to narrative in Square's games. FFVII had some minor player influence in the story, but FFVIII was the game where Square said "Nah, let's not let the player influence the story AT ALL." Ever since then, it's been a constant battle between the forces at Square that want more player input, and the forces who want even less, but unfortunately the latter seems to be winning.

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Vandalvideo

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#10 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
I would much rather have a single, well fleshed out storyline than a bunch of branches which many times rarely make sense when you examine the ethos behind the main character's actions. This was especially apparent in Heavy Rain. You can have all the fake choices you want, but many times the choices just lead to really crappy, vague storytelling.
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bad_fur_day

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#11 bad_fur_day
Member since 2008 • 1988 Posts

Final Fantasy is more about watching the story play out rather than choosing every direction it takes. Fantastic Mr. Fox thinks this is just an opinion.

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deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

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#12 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

Bioware dethroned Square with Baldur's Gate 2.

akbar13
That game is still epic. *points to my sig*.
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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#13 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
.. Square was never the leader of rpg's as far as I am concerned, not since the mid 90's..
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Mogotoo

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#14 Mogotoo
Member since 2009 • 1826 Posts

[QUOTE="akbar13"]Bioware dethroned Square with Baldur's Gate 2.sonicare
That game is still epic. *points to my sig*.

Is it just me, or does the guy to the left look a lot like Alden Tate from Infamous?

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AAllxxjjnn

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#15 AAllxxjjnn
Member since 2008 • 19992 Posts
CD Projeckt Red dethroned Bioware.
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Juken7

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#16 Juken7
Member since 2009 • 626 Posts

They aren't making the same type of games. If Bioware begins making superior Japanese style RPGs then we can say they dethroned Square.

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deactivated-5d6e91f5c147a

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#17 deactivated-5d6e91f5c147a
Member since 2008 • 26108 Posts
That's fine, I'll continue to enjoy games from both sides.
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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#18 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

I would much rather have a single, well fleshed out storyline than a bunch of branches which many times rarely make sense when you examine the ethos behind the main character's actions. This was especially apparent in Heavy Rain. You can have all the fake choices you want, but many times the choices just lead to really crappy, vague storytelling. Vandalvideo

I think my main beef with these so called linear RPG's is really not the story wise gameplay choice making.. But how you can playthe character you like in a character like setting.. Do you want to be the brawny fighter that is more action then talk, or the rogue that talks his way out of most events.. I guess I am too caught up with table top DnD that I still occasionally play to this day.. The last RPG in recent memory that seemed to made me feel like I had close to that power in choices in not only the false decision making, but how you approach problems was Vampires The Masquerade.

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Lethalhazard

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#19 Lethalhazard
Member since 2009 • 5451 Posts
Square-Enix dethroned themselves earlier this gen.
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funsohng

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#20 funsohng
Member since 2005 • 29976 Posts
Square-Enix dethroned themselves when Square and Enix became one.
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Timstuff

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#21 Timstuff
Member since 2002 • 26840 Posts

Final Fantasy is more about watching the story play out rather than choosing every direction it takes. Fantastic Mr. Fox thinks this is just an opinion.

bad_fur_day
That works fine if the story is GOOD. The problem is, a lot of the time it's not. If the choices the player makes are merely an illusion like in Heavy Rain then the player feels cheated, but equally bad is when we are forced to play as a protagonist who we don't like at all because his choices always seem to be the OPPOSITE of what the player wants to take. The player has control during combat, but during the story the have to accept that the character is a moron who cannot be helped. Not to sound like a broken record ragging on FFVIII, but look at Squall: when I was playing the game, I constantly wanted to reach into my TV and punch him in the face, and even after the game ended I still wanted to because he did nothing to redeem himself. If I had control over Squall during the narrative, I could have shaped him into a character who I could respect, but all the choices Squall made were stupid and he was ultimately a moron who I couldn't respect or empathize with.
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cobrax25

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#22 cobrax25
Member since 2006 • 9649 Posts

As far as Western RPG's go, All of Bioware's games are pretty linear.

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Eleckidding

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#23 Eleckidding
Member since 2010 • 262 Posts
Square never had the throne and Bioware has no chance of getting it either.
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#24 Grawse
Member since 2010 • 4342 Posts

I enjoy both sides, but it does seem like each FF gets worse than the last.

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#25 Greyfeld
Member since 2008 • 3007 Posts
Considering Bioware and SE make completely different types of RPGs, the TC's statement is analogous to saying that Media Molecule dethroned Nintendo because of LBP. Even if you agree that one game/franchise is better than the other, the argument is misleading, because regardless of being in the same genre, they're completely different in context and style, making it impossible for them to compete directly for the same demographic.
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porkysownu

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#26 porkysownu
Member since 2010 • 149 Posts

question: is it wrong for a self proclaimed core gamer such as myself to never have played through a square game, and probablly never will?

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xXTalismanXx

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#27 xXTalismanXx
Member since 2008 • 916 Posts

question: is it wrong for a self proclaimed core gamer such as myself to never have played through a square game, and probablly never will?

porkysownu

No, but no one is a true RPG fan until they play Chrono Trigger.

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Arach666

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#28 Arach666
Member since 2009 • 23285 Posts

[QUOTE="porkysownu"]

question: is it wrong for a self proclaimed core gamer such as myself to never have played through a square game, and probablly never will?

xXTalismanXx

No, but no one is a true RPG fan until they play Chrono Trigger.

Or Ultima VII.
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Timstuff

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#29 Timstuff
Member since 2002 • 26840 Posts

[QUOTE="porkysownu"]

question: is it wrong for a self proclaimed core gamer such as myself to never have played through a square game, and probablly never will?

xXTalismanXx

No, but no one is a true RPG fan until they play Chrono Trigger.

Chrono Trigger = :D

Modern Square < SNES Square

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kussese

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#30 kussese
Member since 2008 • 1555 Posts

Square-Enix dethroned themselves when Square and Enix became one.funsohng

Beat me to it. I still enjoy SE's games (unlike most of this board apparently), but they're not classics like Square's.

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Jesus_on_fire

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#31 Jesus_on_fire
Member since 2008 • 2022 Posts

[QUOTE="xXTalismanXx"]

[QUOTE="porkysownu"]

question: is it wrong for a self proclaimed core gamer such as myself to never have played through a square game, and probablly never will?

Timstuff

No, but no one is a true RPG fan until they play Chrono Trigger.

Chrono Trigger = :D

Modern Square < SNES Square

Agreed. FF4 & 6 are 2 of the best rpgs ever made

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Rza_rectah

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#32 Rza_rectah
Member since 2005 • 3959 Posts

Yeah i think ill have to agree Bioware is the better company square blows hard.

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zarshack

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#33 zarshack
Member since 2009 • 9936 Posts

Atlus dethroned square.

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Greyfeld

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#34 Greyfeld
Member since 2008 • 3007 Posts

[QUOTE="Timstuff"]

[QUOTE="xXTalismanXx"]No, but no one is a true RPG fan until they play Chrono Trigger.

Jesus_on_fire

Chrono Trigger = :D

Modern Square < SNES Square

Agreed. FF4 & 6 are 2 of the best rpgs ever made

I happen to believe that FFX and FFIX are better than both of those games.

My opinion > your opinion?

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Arach666

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#35 Arach666
Member since 2009 • 23285 Posts

[QUOTE="Jesus_on_fire"]

[QUOTE="Timstuff"]Chrono Trigger = :D

Modern Square < SNES Square

Greyfeld

Agreed. FF4 & 6 are 2 of the best rpgs ever made

I happen to believe that FFX and FFIX are better than both of those games.

My opinion > your opinion?

In what way does that invalidate his statement?
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ryetech

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#36 ryetech
Member since 2006 • 347 Posts
"Final Fantasy: The spirits within" killed squaresoft
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Jesus_on_fire

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#37 Jesus_on_fire
Member since 2008 • 2022 Posts

[QUOTE="Jesus_on_fire"]

[QUOTE="Timstuff"]Chrono Trigger = :D

Modern Square < SNES Square

Greyfeld

Agreed. FF4 & 6 are 2 of the best rpgs ever made

I happen to believe that FFX and FFIX are better than both of those games.

My opinion > your opinion?

Why not, Go for it

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erglesmergle

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#38 erglesmergle
Member since 2009 • 1769 Posts

Not everyone likes "choose your future" RPGs. Id rather play a game with a set story. Thats not to say "choose your future" RPGs arent fun.

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Greyfeld

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#39 Greyfeld
Member since 2008 • 3007 Posts

[QUOTE="Greyfeld"]

[QUOTE="Jesus_on_fire"] Agreed. FF4 & 6 are 2 of the best rpgs ever made

Arach666

I happen to believe that FFX and FFIX are better than both of those games.

My opinion > your opinion?

In what way does that invalidate his statement?

Let me just say, opinions are like ****. I'll let you fill in the rest.

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deactivated-594be627b82ba

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#40 deactivated-594be627b82ba
Member since 2006 • 8405 Posts

square is not as good as it once was but i still like them a lot more then i would ever like bioware

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Ultra_Combo

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#41 Ultra_Combo
Member since 2009 • 1494 Posts

Considering Bioware and SE make completely different types of RPGs, the TC's statement is analogous to saying that Media Molecule dethroned Nintendo because of LBP. Even if you agree that one game/franchise is better than the other, the argument is misleading, because regardless of being in the same genre, they're completely different in context and **** making it impossible for them to compete directly for the same demographic.Greyfeld

No it's not 10 > 9.5 :P Bioware also score higher then SE games so it is possible they have dethroned them , better stick with the jrpgs != Wrpg's argument :D

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#42 cainetao11
Member since 2006 • 38065 Posts
TC, I agree due to personal preference. I couldn't for the life of me get into any FF game. The names and turn based combat just turned me off. I am a huge Bioware fan. I loved Jade Empire, and the Mass Effect series is among my favorite games ever. I also love the Xbox games branching into books. I read many of them. But, I admit I don't qualify to say Bioware is better than Square as I just never got into there biggest game franchise. All said, good read anyway.
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LegatoSkyheart

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#43 LegatoSkyheart
Member since 2009 • 29733 Posts

Mass Effect 2 is no Final Fantasy 6.

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Arach666

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#44 Arach666
Member since 2009 • 23285 Posts

[QUOTE="Arach666"][QUOTE="Greyfeld"]

I happen to believe that FFX and FFIX are better than both of those games.

My opinion > your opinion?

Greyfeld

In what way does that invalidate his statement?

Let me just say, opinions are like ****. I'll let you fill in the rest.

I know,but what I was trying to say was the fact that you think FFX and FFIX are better than FFIV and FFVI doesn´t mean that they can´t be still 2 of the best RPG´s ever made like jesus_on_fire was stating.

He didn´t said that FFIV FFVI were the best,only some of the best.

Eh,I wonder why I´ve bothered myself with this.

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Greyfeld

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#45 Greyfeld
Member since 2008 • 3007 Posts

[QUOTE="Greyfeld"]Considering Bioware and SE make completely different types of RPGs, the TC's statement is analogous to saying that Media Molecule dethroned Nintendo because of LBP. Even if you agree that one game/franchise is better than the other, the argument is misleading, because regardless of being in the same genre, they're completely different in context and **** making it impossible for them to compete directly for the same demographic.Ultra_Combo

No it's not 10 > 9.5 :P Bioware also score higher then SE games so it is possible they have dethroned them , better stick with the jrpgs != Wrpg's argument :D

Considering this is a discussion about opinions, rather than scores, I think it's safe to say that my analogy stands. But if you really want to stick within the genre that badly, let's say "Atlus dethroned Bethesda" because of Demon's Souls vs. Elder Scrolls.
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murat8

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#46 murat8
Member since 2006 • 10362 Posts
i wouldnt say it like that ME2>>>>>FF13 but games like TWEWY and Tactics i till prefer over ME2
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___gamemaster__

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#47 ___gamemaster__
Member since 2009 • 3425 Posts

Square-Enix dethroned themselves when Square and Enix became one.funsohng

pretty much this.

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Greyfeld

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#48 Greyfeld
Member since 2008 • 3007 Posts

[QUOTE="Greyfeld"]

[QUOTE="Arach666"] In what way does that invalidate his statement?Arach666

Let me just say, opinions are like ****. I'll let you fill in the rest.

I know,but what I was trying to say was the fact that you think FFX and FFIX are better than FFIV and FFVI doesn´t mean that they can´t be still 2 of the best RPG´s ever made like jesus_on_fire was stating.

He didn´t said that FFIV FFVI were the best,only some of the best.

Eh,I wonder why I´ve bothered myself with this.

*Shrugs* I'd still have to disagree with the statement. Especially since, if you really want to argue semantics, we would have to agree how many games are included in this listing of "the best."

Of course, there's always the chance that I just missed the hyperbole due to being on the internet, so there's no real reason to go into a detailed debate about such a thing. It's all opinion anyway.

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deactivated-61cc564148ef4

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#49 deactivated-61cc564148ef4
Member since 2007 • 10909 Posts

Square isn't bad. They're a great publisher and are investing in totally rad games that appeal to the Western Market (Just Cause 2, Deus Ex 3) But I never liked their story. it alwways felt like I HAVE A BIG IMPORTANT STORY FOR YOU TO HEAR. I mean, I prefer Half Life 2's storytelling bettter, using the enviroment to imply things rather then force you to take in so much

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Arach666

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#50 Arach666
Member since 2009 • 23285 Posts

[QUOTE="Arach666"]

[QUOTE="Greyfeld"]

Let me just say, opinions are like ****. I'll let you fill in the rest.

Greyfeld

I know,but what I was trying to say was the fact that you think FFX and FFIX are better than FFIV and FFVI doesn´t mean that they can´t be still 2 of the best RPG´s ever made like jesus_on_fire was stating.

He didn´t said that FFIV FFVI were the best,only some of the best.

Eh,I wonder why I´ve bothered myself with this.

*Shrugs* I'd still have to disagree with the statement. Especially since, if you really want to argue semantics, we would have to agree how many games are included in this listing of "the best."

Of course, there's always the chance that I just missed the hyperbole due to being on the internet, so there's no real reason to go into a detailed debate about such a thing. It's all opinion anyway.

It is,and I don´t really want to discuss this anymore,it´s quite pointless indeed.