Is borrowing a game considered piracy?

In licensing terms yes, you are breaking the license terms but there's no way in hell they can possibly police that without requiring online connection at all times and only allowing it to be used with one machine ID or account or something.

Short answer: Yes, according to licensing terms.

Though I doubt it'll be labeled something as serious as piracy but licenses always state "no loaning, borrowing or renting of any kind" and the likes.

JohnF111

First sale doctrine, broski. The only time you'll run into licensing issues is with PC games, and even then there's the question of whether or not the EULA is legally binding.

[QUOTE="JohnF111"]

In licensing terms yes, you are breaking the license terms but there's no way in hell they can possibly police that without requiring online connection at all times and only allowing it to be used with one machine ID or account or something.

Short answer: Yes, according to licensing terms.

Though I doubt it'll be labeled something as serious as piracy but licenses always state "no loaning, borrowing or renting of any kind" and the likes.

Slow_Show

First sale doctrine, broski. The only time you'll run into licensing issues is with PC games, and even then there's the question of whether or not the EULA would be binding.

I know the law allows it but in licensing terms(as i clearly stated) it's not allowed. Jeez was i on mute or something?JohnF111

Uh, fair enough, I guess? Not sure why you're bringing licensing into things (aside from the PC, as I stated).

[QUOTE="glimpus"]

[QUOTE="BullyRay44"] So borrowing a game from my brother makes me a lazy cheap bum? :|

Cherokee_Jack

[QUOTE="JohnF111"]I know the law allows it but in licensing terms(as i clearly stated) it's not allowed. Jeez was i on mute or something?Slow_Show

Uh, fair enough, I guess? Not sure why you're bringing licensing into things (aside from the PC, as I stated).

This

Because if loaning games became huge, and nearly everyone did it and it became as big as Piracy or used games in the amount of people who participate then you would see publishers take note and respond to it. This is due to the end effect that publishers would be losing out on possible sales, and say that they are losing out on money.

Ravenlore_basic

It's more likely the reason that it is impossible to police. No matter what form of protection publishers try - online passes, DRM locked to a single account, only usable on a single machine, or constant internet connection - it would be vritually impossible to stop two people in close proximity from sharing the games. All they need to do is share the system and account details, and no amount of copy protection can stop them besides 24/7 surveillance.

It likely happens far more than you suspect. Every time someone let's a friend play a game, that would constitute the latter person "borrowing" the game. Gamer dad buys a game for gamer son, and they both play? Borrowing. Sharing games amongst siblings. Borrowing.

Even the greediest publishers is wise enough to realize they'd just lose money trying to fight something as pervasive and widespread as loaning the game out to close friends.

I hope the idiots who think that this is stealing, and people should buy their own games and not share, realize a couple of things and stfu, the next time you're in the kitchen and want to toast some bread, think of the company that made the toaster, and think of the money they could loose because you were to lazy to go out and buy a toaster for your own use, instead of your moms.

The next time you need to borrow a pen in class? think about bic, tell the teacher to suspend the class so that you can go quickly to the store to buy a bloody pen. Your arguments are ridiculous.

Mind_Mover

Yup. It'd be like every user of a PC being required to buy their own copy of Windows or having to buy a controller for everyone in your household isntead of having everyone share controllers.

I meant that MS/Sony/Nintendo could in theory block your access to a game if it breaks their terms which you agreed to by booting up the game and whatever else, but in the eyes of the law there's nothing that can have you with fines or a prison sentence, just the possibility of losing access to XBL or online or something if the company discovered you had loaned the game to someone which technically broke the EULA and there's really nothing you can do because in there somewhere it'll have "We can stop you getting access to this game or any service at our will without your knowledge".JohnF111

No they can't. With few exceptions (and this isn't one), contracts don't supercede legal rights.

Yes it is. Think about it, passing a game to someone else you know is the slow way of putting it online and passing it to millions of others. * sarcasm*

I borrowed DA: Origins from a friend once. We aren't friends any more though, and I never bothered to return it since we weren't speaking. He never asked for it back or anything, so I kept it and even used the DLC codes that were inside the case.

Yeah, it was a dick move. Probably worse than piracy, since I actually sold his copy of the game after I was finished with it. But oh well.

[QUOTE="JohnF111"] I meant that MS/Sony/Nintendo could in theory block your access to a game if it breaks their terms which you agreed to by booting up the game and whatever else, but in the eyes of the law there's nothing that can have you with fines or a prison sentence, just the possibility of losing access to XBL or online or something if the company discovered you had loaned the game to someone which technically broke the EULA and there's really nothing you can do because in there somewhere it'll have "We can stop you getting access to this game or any service at our will without your knowledge".Slow_Show

No they can't. With few exceptions (and this isn't one), contracts don't supercede legal rights.

Tell that to people banned from XBL for swearing... Because you know it's against their policy to swear.JohnF111

XBL is a service, a game is a product. Apples and oranges.

[QUOTE="JohnF111"]Tell that to people banned from XBL for swearing... Because you know it's against their policy to swear.Slow_Show

XBL is a service, a game is a product. Apples and oranges.

I borrowed DA: Origins from a friend once. We aren't friends any more though, and I never bothered to return it since we weren't speaking. He never asked for it back or anything, so I kept it and even used the DLC codes that were inside the case.

Yeah, it was a dick move. Probably worse than piracy, since I actually sold his copy of the game after I was finished with it. But oh well.

Tikeio

That's F^d up bro.. lol

So wait a minute.. You're saying that if i break EULA for a game by loaning it and the devs/publishers find out and block my access to the game by whatever means they have that I by protection of the law am immune to what they have just done? No... I broke the terms fair and square, a game is considered a service these days, you only buy a license which grants access under certain conditions, you never ever "own" a game.JohnF111

Uh, yes you are. As I said a contract like an EULA (especially a half-assed EULA like what you find tacked on to console games) doesn't trump your legal rights, and while some aspects of the game may be considered a service the game itself (ie pretty much whatever you can do with it offline) is considered a product.

Here's an easy way to tell who's right: if games were licensed, then selling used copies would be considered copyright infringement (as you would be selling a license you don't have the right to sell). This would, in turn, make GameStop one of the largest copyright infringers in the world, and surely the target of litigation from every publisher in the gaming world.

Last I checked, GameStop has not, in fact, been sued into oblivion for copyright infringement.

Music and books aren't doing too hot.

GD1551

Nope people borrowed games from each other in the 80's and 90's so why would it be any different in this age.

[QUOTE="GD1551"]Music and books aren't doing too hot.

Haziqonfire

Didn't the label with Spears, timberlake, usher and quite a few others just shutdown the other day? Didn't borders close down as well? (2nd biggest US bookstore)

Didn't the label with Spears, timberlake, usher and quite a few others just shutdown the other day? Didn't borders close down as well? (2nd biggest US bookstore)

GD1551

You can say the same thing about the gaming industry and the countless number of publishers and development studios that shut down this generation.

That stuff is pretty irrelevant to the entire discussion of those industries being in trouble, like you alluded to.

[QUOTE="OhSnapitz"][QUOTE="Aljosa23"]

Man, it's pretty hilarious how the video game industry has people brainwashed regarding used games.

WreckEm711

lol your sig is so good

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

Didn't the label with Spears, timberlake, usher and quite a few others just shutdown the other day? Didn't borders close down as well? (2nd biggest US bookstore)

Haziqonfire

You can say the same thing about the gaming industry and the countless number of publishers and development studios that shut down this generation.

That stuff is pretty irrelevant to the entire discussion of those industries being in trouble, like you alluded to.

which publishers are you referring to?

You never gained possesion or ownership of it. Piracy is the illegal ownership of a property. So no.Spartan070

..as defined by "EULA"..

Short for End-User License Agreement, the type of license used for most software. An EULA is a legal contract between the manufacturer and/or the author and the end user of an application. The EULA details how the software can and cannot be used and any restrictions that the manufacturer imposes (e.g., most EULA??s of proprietary software prohibit the user from sharing the software with anyone else).

Not every EULA is the same. Some contracts stipulate acceptance of the agreement simply by opening the shrink-wrapped package; some require the user to mail back to the manufacturer a signed agreement or acceptance card; some require the user to accept the agreement after the application is installed by clicking on an acceptance form that appears on the user??s monitor. This last method is typical of applications that can be downloaded from the Internet.

In all instances, the user has the option of not accepting the EULA, subsequently surrendering the rights and ability to use the software. As in typical legal contracts, the EULA protects both parties from liability if the software is used in a way not intended by the manufacturer or author.

...as defined by XBox 360 software..

For use only with Xbox 360 entertainment systems with "NTSC" designation. Unauthorized copying, reverse engineering, transmission, public performance, rental, pay for play, or circumvention of copy protection is strictly prohibited.

_____________

I don't think a lot of gamers even pay attention to those restrictions.. :? however there's no restriction for borrowing.

The other two industries have adapted to newer technologies and been fine.Haziqonfire

Unfortunately for us some video game publishers have chosen to cope by selling only part of the game; they carve up the game at the very end of development to sell back to you as on-disc/day one DLC. They also artificially devalue used copies by locking content and functionality behind passes.

Capcom have gone one step further by bundling extra content with retail re-releases rather than distributing it as DLC, so those wanting that new content have to buy those games all over again.

...and despite all these blatantly anti-customer actions they have managed to convince some of their customers that buying used is no better than pirating. :?

which publishers are you referring to?

GD1551

Midway and Sierra are the two biggest ones and THQ has been under financial troubles for a while now.

[QUOTE="GD1551"]

which publishers are you referring to?

Haziqonfire

Midway and Sierra are the two biggest ones and THQ has been under financial troubles for a while now.

Well to be fair none of those are major publishers and the gaming industry isn't like the book or movie one, with a movie or book chain they will be selling the same books, but for a publisher your games could just be bad or too niche and just not sell. Either way, the examples I listed gaming equivalent would be like EA or Activision going under.

If you borrow a game from a friend, complete the entire experience, and give it back.. but you didn't pay a lick for it. Are you considered a pirate? I mean you didn't pay for your experience with said title. :|

OhSnapitz

Pirating is actually "file sharing" i don't know under what definition anyone else would put it but that's what it essentially is. People sharing files with others. It's purpose it's not to disable or hurt the gaming industry but just to share with other people. I know i'm making them sound nice.. but essentially they're just doing just that. So technically you are pirating. and it hurts them in possible sales.

To me personally... you're doing nothing wrong, so don't get me the wrong way :P

[QUOTE="OhSnapitz"]

If you borrow a game from a friend, complete the entire experience, and give it back.. but you didn't pay a lick for it. Are you considered a pirate? I mean you didn't pay for your experience with said title. :|

Joedgabe

Pirating is actually "file sharing" i don't know under what definition anyone else would put it but that's what it essentially is. People sharing files with others. It's purpose it's not to disable or hurt the gaming industry but just to share with other people. I know i'm making them sound nice.. but essentially they're just doing just that. So technically you are pirating. and it hurts them in possible sales.

[QUOTE="Joedgabe"]

[QUOTE="OhSnapitz"]

If you borrow a game from a friend, complete the entire experience, and give it back.. but you didn't pay a lick for it. Are you considered a pirate? I mean you didn't pay for your experience with said title. :|

OhSnapitz

Pirating is actually "file sharing" i don't know under what definition anyone else would put it but that's what it essentially is. People sharing files with others. It's purpose it's not to disable or hurt the gaming industry but just to share with other people. I know i'm making them sound nice.. but essentially they're just doing just that. So technically you are pirating. and it hurts them in possible sales.

Which is why Pirating is actually legal. Because it is file sharing not selling like Megaupload was.

Megaupload is selling a file storage service, nothing more. Its the users of the service that are breaking the law and what Megaupload is supposed to be.

[QUOTE="Spartan070"]You never gained possesion or ownership of it. Piracy is the illegal ownership of a property. So no.OhSnapitz

..as defined by "EULA"..

Short for End-User License Agreement, the type of license used for most software. An EULA is a legal contract between the manufacturer and/or the author and the end user of an application. The EULA details how the software can and cannot be used and any restrictions that the manufacturer imposes (e.g., most EULA??s of proprietary software prohibit the user from sharing the software with anyone else).

Not every EULA is the same. Some contracts stipulate acceptance of the agreement simply by opening the shrink-wrapped package; some require the user to mail back to the manufacturer a signed agreement or acceptance card; some require the user to accept the agreement after the application is installed by clicking on an acceptance form that appears on the user??s monitor. This last method is typical of applications that can be downloaded from the Internet.

In all instances, the user has the option of not accepting the EULA, subsequently surrendering the rights and ability to use the software. As in typical legal contracts, the EULA protects both parties from liability if the software is used in a way not intended by the manufacturer or author.

...as defined by XBox 360 software..

For use only with Xbox 360 entertainment systems with "NTSC" designation. Unauthorized copying, reverse engineering, transmission, public performance, rental, pay for play, or circumvention of copy protection is strictly prohibited.

_____________

I don't think a lot of gamers even pay attention to those restrictions.. :? however there's no restriction for borrowing.

The transfer of money occurs before this alleged "contract," thus the contract is pretty much a crock of ****. If you don't accept the EULA you don't get your funds back, even for online transactions.

There is no legitimate contract that isn't shown to you until after you've already made payment.

That's what some publisher want you to believe.

Looks like the publishers already brainwashed a few gamers...they are nothing but tools to them now.

[QUOTE="Slow_Show"]

[QUOTE="JohnF111"]

In licensing terms yes, you are breaking the license terms but there's no way in hell they can possibly police that without requiring online connection at all times and only allowing it to be used with one machine ID or account or something.

Short answer: Yes, according to licensing terms.

Though I doubt it'll be labeled something as serious as piracy but licenses always state "no loaning, borrowing or renting of any kind" and the likes.

JohnF111

First sale doctrine, broski. The only time you'll run into licensing issues is with PC games, and even then there's the question of whether or not the EULA would be binding.

Didn't autodesk win a case against someone trying to resell their copy of autocad?

you bet your monkey a$$ it is

but on a smaller scale