Is Lair the biggest flop in SW history?

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]

Twilight Princess
Blinx
Killzone
Doom 3
fable
Super Mario Sunshine

lair isnt that big of a deal compared to these games.

johnnyblazed88

LOL how you figure? most of those games scored 8 and above

Twilight princess was hyped as the greatest game ever period. fail.
Blinx was hyped as the mairo killer. fail
Killzone, halo killr. fail
Doom 3. Best shooter ever. fail
Fable. best rpg ever .fail
Super mario sunshine was coming right off of the heels of SM64 and promised to be just as revolutionary. fail.

Twilight Princess is the worse ever though. They sent death threats to the reviewer and suicide accoutns spammed sw for days.

[QUOTE="johnnyblazed88"][QUOTE="JPOBS"]

Twilight Princess
Blinx
Killzone
Doom 3
fable
Super Mario Sunshine

lair isnt that big of a deal compared to these games.

TOAO_Cyrus1

LOL how you figure? most of those games scored 8 and above

If your only criteria is how much of a ruckus there was on SW then all those are up there.

Except that's NOT the only criteria. Far from it.A game can't be considered for "biggest flop in SW history" just because it's slightly less great than expected, however significant an irrational minority perceives that tiny discrepancy to be.

Seirously, I cant believe anyone could claim Twilight Princess isnt the biggest flop in systemwars history.

[QUOTE="johnnyblazed88"][QUOTE="JPOBS"]

Twilight Princess
Blinx
Killzone
Doom 3
fable
Super Mario Sunshine

lair isnt that big of a deal compared to these games.

JPOBS

LOL how you figure? most of those games scored 8 and above

Twilight princess was hyped as the greatest game ever period. fail.
Blinx was hyped as the mairo killer. fail
Killzone, halo killr. fail
Doom 3. Best shooter ever. fail
Fable. best rpg ever .fail
Super mario sunshine was coming right off of the heels of SM64 and promised to be just as revolutionary. fail.

Twilight Princess is the worse ever though. They sent death threats to the reviewer and suicide accoutns spammed sw for days.

Correct, a flop is not living up to hype. Thus, by extension, the biggest flop in history must be the game that fails by the biggest margin to live up to its hype. Lair and Daikatana fit that description better than any game you mentioned by far, especially since only a marginal minority ever hyped those games (at least, TP, Killzone, Fable, Doom 3, and SMS; I don't know about Blinx) beyond simple AAA status.

[QUOTE="JPOBS"][QUOTE="johnnyblazed88"][QUOTE="JPOBS"]

Twilight Princess
Blinx
Killzone
Doom 3
fable
Super Mario Sunshine

lair isnt that big of a deal compared to these games.

mjarantilla

LOL how you figure? most of those games scored 8 and above

Twilight princess was hyped as the greatest game ever period. fail.
Blinx was hyped as the mairo killer. fail
Killzone, halo killr. fail
Doom 3. Best shooter ever. fail
Fable. best rpg ever .fail
Super mario sunshine was coming right off of the heels of SM64 and promised to be just as revolutionary. fail.

Twilight Princess is the worse ever though. They sent death threats to the reviewer and suicide accoutns spammed sw for days.

Correct, a flop is not living up to hype. Thus, by extension, the biggest flop in history must be the game that fails by the biggest margin to live up to its hype. Lair and Daikatana fit that description better than any game you mentioned by far, especially since only a marginal minority ever hyped those games (at least, TP, Killzone, Fable, Doom 3, and SMS; I don't know about Blinx) beyond simple AAA status.

only a marginal minority ever hyped TP, Killzone, Fable, Doom 3, and SMS?
Were you even here for those games?

When Lair flopped, the lemmings claimed ownage and everyone moved on. Something FAR more significant happened on all of the games basically beside Lair. Lair was a typical bad game people thought would be good. If you were here for those games, you'd know what im talking about.

Seirously, I cant believe anyone could claim Twilight Princess isnt the biggest flop in systemwars history.

JPOBS

It was hyped AAA-AAAA. It missed that hype by 0.2 points on GameSpot, but met it everywhere else. The irrational reaction of fanboys has nothing to do with how big a flop it was. As I said, you don't malign a game for being the "biggest flop ever" just because it's slightly less great than expected, no matter how the vocal minority on either extreme wants to spin it.

It was certainly one of the most public flops in history, but by no means was it the biggest. To be the biggest flop, a game must combine magnitude of failure (how much the game missed its projected score) with magnitude of pre-release hype. As far as I know, Daikatana is the only game to really meet that criteria.

It's up there. But there are too many youngin's on here that can't remember the time of Daikatana. Now that was a flop.

But lair did a good job though.

If it's based on the REACTION to the flop, then Lair isn't even anywhere close. It would be a pretty close tie between Doom 3 and Twilight Princess.

If it's based on the difference in score between hype and reality, then Lair is probably the biggest, although there might be bigger.

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]

Seirously, I cant believe anyone could claim Twilight Princess isnt the biggest flop in systemwars history.

mjarantilla

It was hyped AAA-AAAA. It missed that hype by 0.2 points on GameSpot, but met it everywhere else. The irrational reaction of fanboys has nothing to do with how big a flop it was. As I said, you don't malign a game for being the "biggest flop ever" just because it's slightly less great than expected, no matter how the vocal minority on either extreme wants to spin it.

It was certainly one of the most public flops in history, but by no means was it the biggest. To be the biggest flop, a game must combine magnitude of failure (how much the game missed its projected score) with magnitude of pre-release hype. As far as I know, Daikatana is the only game to really meet that criteria.

Hype is only generated by fanboys to begin with. the relative score of a game has no bearing on its flop status, only that it failed to achieve its hype. Zelda was hyped as the greatest game ever. PERIOD. and when it failed, people went crazy, suicide accounts were rampant, DEATH THREATS were emailed to the reviewer, you're kididng yourself.

TP is the biggest sw flop ever. No game even comes close to having the impact of floppage that TP had. relative scores are meaningless in this discussion.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="JPOBS"][QUOTE="johnnyblazed88"][QUOTE="JPOBS"]

Twilight Princess
Blinx
Killzone
Doom 3
fable
Super Mario Sunshine

lair isnt that big of a deal compared to these games.

JPOBS

LOL how you figure? most of those games scored 8 and above

Twilight princess was hyped as the greatest game ever period. fail.
Blinx was hyped as the mairo killer. fail
Killzone, halo killr. fail
Doom 3. Best shooter ever. fail
Fable. best rpg ever .fail
Super mario sunshine was coming right off of the heels of SM64 and promised to be just as revolutionary. fail.

Twilight Princess is the worse ever though. They sent death threats to the reviewer and suicide accoutns spammed sw for days.

Correct, a flop is not living up to hype. Thus, by extension, the biggest flop in history must be the game that fails by the biggest margin to live up to its hype. Lair and Daikatana fit that description better than any game you mentioned by far, especially since only a marginal minority ever hyped those games (at least, TP, Killzone, Fable, Doom 3, and SMS; I don't know about Blinx) beyond simple AAA status.

only a marginal minority ever hyped TP, Killzone, Fable, Doom 3, and SMS?
Were you even here for those games?

When Lair flopped, the lemmings claimed ownage and everyone moved on. Something FAR more significant happened on all of the games basically beside Lair. Lair was a typical bad game people thought would be good. If you were here for those games, you'd know what im talking about.

You intentionally twist my words to suit your argument. Typical.

I did not say "a marginal minority ever hyped (etc.)" I said, "a marginal minority ever hyped (etc.) beyond AAA status." That minority happens to be the most vocal kind, the same with YOUR kind on the opposite end of the spectrum (the minority that claims it as the biggest flop ever for a 0.2 discrepancy with the expected score).

If everyone "moved on from Lair" compared to TP, then why are people still talking about it and using it as a synonym for any game that fails to live up to hype instead of TP? Why are people comparing it to Daikatana (easily the biggest flop ever, both in terms of magnitude of failure and magnitude of hype)? Why are people still making threads about Lair, but no one makes a thread about TP? The only games on that list whose failures are this enduring are Killzone and Daikatana.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="JPOBS"]

Seirously, I cant believe anyone could claim Twilight Princess isnt the biggest flop in systemwars history.

JPOBS

It was hyped AAA-AAAA. It missed that hype by 0.2 points on GameSpot, but met it everywhere else. The irrational reaction of fanboys has nothing to do with how big a flop it was. As I said, you don't malign a game for being the "biggest flop ever" just because it's slightly less great than expected, no matter how the vocal minority on either extreme wants to spin it.

It was certainly one of the most public flops in history, but by no means was it the biggest. To be the biggest flop, a game must combine magnitude of failure (how much the game missed its projected score) with magnitude of pre-release hype. As far as I know, Daikatana is the only game to really meet that criteria.

Hype is only generated by fanboys to begin with. the relative score of a game has no bearing on its flop status, only that it failed to achieve its hype. Zelda was hyped as the greatest game ever. PERIOD. and when it failed, people went crazy, suicide accounts were rampant, DEATH THREATS were emailed to the reviewer, you're kididng yourself.

TP is the biggest sw flop ever. No game even comes close to having the impact of floppage that TP had. relative scores are meaningless in this discussion.

Fanboys represent a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of gamers. It may have been the biggest flop for them, but in the larger picture, it was almost meaningless. If we judged the significance of everything by the reactions of an extremely vocal but extremely small minority, then the Heaven's Gate cult's reaction to the Hale-Bopp comet was more significant than the reactions of the entire scientific community.

[QUOTE="JPOBS"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="JPOBS"][QUOTE="johnnyblazed88"][QUOTE="JPOBS"]

Twilight Princess
Blinx
Killzone
Doom 3
fable
Super Mario Sunshine

lair isnt that big of a deal compared to these games.

mjarantilla

LOL how you figure? most of those games scored 8 and above

Twilight princess was hyped as the greatest game ever period. fail.
Blinx was hyped as the mairo killer. fail
Killzone, halo killr. fail
Doom 3. Best shooter ever. fail
Fable. best rpg ever .fail
Super mario sunshine was coming right off of the heels of SM64 and promised to be just as revolutionary. fail.

Twilight Princess is the worse ever though. They sent death threats to the reviewer and suicide accoutns spammed sw for days.

Correct, a flop is not living up to hype. Thus, by extension, the biggest flop in history must be the game that fails by the biggest margin to live up to its hype. Lair and Daikatana fit that description better than any game you mentioned by far, especially since only a marginal minority ever hyped those games (at least, TP, Killzone, Fable, Doom 3, and SMS; I don't know about Blinx) beyond simple AAA status.

only a marginal minority ever hyped TP, Killzone, Fable, Doom 3, and SMS?
Were you even here for those games?

When Lair flopped, the lemmings claimed ownage and everyone moved on. Something FAR more significant happened on all of the games basically beside Lair. Lair was a typical bad game people thought would be good. If you were here for those games, you'd know what im talking about.

You intentionally twist my words to suit your argument. Typical.

I did not say "a marginal minority ever hyped (etc.)" I said, "a marginal minority ever hyped (etc.) beyond AAA status." That minority happens to be the most vocal kind, the same with YOUR kind on the opposite end of the spectrum (the minority that claims it as the biggest flop ever for a 0.2 discrepancy with the expected score).

If everyone "moved on from Lair" compared to TP, then why are people still talking about it and using it as a synonym for any game that fails to live up to hype instead of TP? Why are people comparing it to Daikatana (easily the biggest flop ever, both in terms of magnitude of failure and magnitude of hype)? Why are people still making threads about Lair, but no one makes a thread about TP? The only games on that list whose failures are this enduring are Killzone and Daikatana.

Other flops like I've mentioned dont have threads made about them anymore because everyone here is NEW and thus dont know about them. Go to a forum like Systemwars.com or systemwars2.com where forumites who where actually here for systemwar's HISTORY who can acutally make a real determination on the biggest flop in history (you know, seeing as how they were actually here) and Lair wouldnt even make top 5.

But anyway, that just a direct answer to your questions. Personally, i think you're just against TP being labeled biggest flop in history because you're a sheep. lulz

Fanboys represent a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of gamers. It may have been the biggest flop for them, but in the larger picture, it was almost meaningless. If we judged the significance of everything by the reactions of an extremely vocal but extremely small minority, then the Heaven's Gate cult's reaction to the Hale-Bopp comet was more significant than the reactions of the entire scientific community.

mjarantilla

We're specifically speaking of systemwars here pal, not gamers as a whole.

Because everyone here is a noob. You'd be hard pressed to find a poster on this forum pre-06. the overwhelming majority of people on this forum only witnessed the likes of Lair.JPOBS

"Pre-06" still encompasses TP's release date, which means the overwhelming majority of people on this forum STILL witnessed the TP fallout, and STILL choose to cite Lair as the quintessential "flop."

Other flops like I've mentioned dont have threads made about them anymore because everyone here is NEW and thus dont know about them. Go to a forum like Systemwars.com or systemwars2.com where forumites who where actually here for systemwar's HISTORY who can acutally make a real determination on the biggest flop in history (you know, seeing as how they were actually here) and Lair wouldnt even make top 5.JPOBS

I HAVE been to Systemwars.com. It's populated almost entirely by ex-trolls who are EXACTLY the kind of "extreme minority" whose stated opinions are irrelevant.

But anyway, that just a direct answer to your questions. Personally, i think you're just against TP being labeled biggest flop in history because you're a sheep. lulzJPOBS

I'm overwhelmingly a hermit more than I am a sheep (ignore the sig; it's really more like 65%-15%-10%-10% now). I'm simply looking at facts. Lair was hyped AAA, and it was also hyped to have the "best graphics evar!" and to be the first true 1080p game to show the power of the PS3, AND to be the first game to utilize the SixAxis "correctly" (similarly to MP3's hype that it would be the first game to utilize the Wiimote correctly; MP3 met that hype). This was not some "extremist" opinion, because up till its release, no one had any evidence to the contrary.

It failed spectacularly on EVERY account. It failed on EVERY point it could have possibly failed at. It was simply a total failure of a game. And more importantly, opinions of its failure were virtually universal.

The same was NOT said about TP. The reaction to TP's score was directed against GameSpot, NOT the game itself. That is why I say it is the most public flop, but not the biggest. When you specifically use the term, "biggest flop ever," you're talking about a particular game's failure to meet expectations. In TP's case, it only failed to meet GameSpot's expectations. In Lair's case, it failed to meet everyone's expectations. It's clear which one is the bigger flop.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

Fanboys represent a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of gamers. It may have been the biggest flop for them, but in the larger picture, it was almost meaningless. If we judged the significance of everything by the reactions of an extremely vocal but extremely small minority, then the Heaven's Gate cult's reaction to the Hale-Bopp comet was more significant than the reactions of the entire scientific community.

JPOBS

We're specifically speaking of systemwars here pal, not gamers as a whole.

Right, exactly. We're speaking of System Wars. However, as I said in my above post, if you define "hype" as a failure to meet expectations, then Lair is still by far the biggest culprit. TP only failed to meet GameSpot's expectations, but Lair failed to meet everyone's expectations.

What YOU are talking about is fan reaction to a score, NOT to a game.

Lair is the biggest

Killzone is second

[QUOTE="JPOBS"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

Fanboys represent a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of gamers. It may have been the biggest flop for them, but in the larger picture, it was almost meaningless. If we judged the significance of everything by the reactions of an extremely vocal but extremely small minority, then the Heaven's Gate cult's reaction to the Hale-Bopp comet was more significant than the reactions of the entire scientific community.

mjarantilla

We're specifically speaking of systemwars here pal, not gamers as a whole.

Right, exactly. We're speaking of System Wars. However, as I said in my above post, if you define "hype" as a failure to meet expectations, then Lair is still by far the biggest culprit. TP only failed to meet GameSpot's expectations, but Lair failed to meet everyone's expectations.

What YOU are talking about is fan reaction to a score, NOT to a game.

Bingo.

i think its weird how a game (TP) that got a higher metascore than gears, halo 3, mgs4, cod 4, is being called the biggest flop in sw history. i know we're talking about system wars here i just think its weird.

imo lair, haze, killzone are all huge flops thats y im not sold yet on killzone 2, the halo 3 killer.

Twilight Princess
Blinx
Killzone
Doom 3
fable
Super Mario Sunshine

lair isnt that big of a deal compared to these games.

JPOBS

[QUOTE="JPOBS"]

Twilight Princess
Blinx
Killzone
Doom 3
fable
Super Mario Sunshine

lair isnt that big of a deal compared to these games.

nintendoman562

read about that in the system wars history thread, i heard that the user was hated on immensley and flamed to death by pc gamers

[QUOTE="nintendoman562"][QUOTE="JPOBS"]

Twilight Princess
Blinx
Killzone
Doom 3
fable
Super Mario Sunshine

lair isnt that big of a deal compared to these games.

linkin_guy109

read about that in the system wars history thread, i heard that the user was hated on immensley and flamed to death by pc gamers

Was that TwinBlade?

[QUOTE="linkin_guy109"][QUOTE="nintendoman562"][QUOTE="JPOBS"]

Twilight Princess
Blinx
Killzone
Doom 3
fable
Super Mario Sunshine

lair isnt that big of a deal compared to these games.

mjarantilla

read about that in the system wars history thread, i heard that the user was hated on immensley and flamed to death by pc gamers

Was that TwinBlade?

just looked it up, it was jago

In terms of score hype vs. reality, Lair is clearly the biggest.

But it wasn't the most significant flop. That would be either KillZone or Twilight Princess.

Those flops were epic.

What the...has everyone forgotten about Twilight Princess? Was I the only one that remembered how the sheep reacted? That's the only game that truly broke system wars into a crazy panic, it was the biggest flop.ice144

In terms of score hype vs. reality, Lair is clearly the biggest.

But it wasn't the most significant flop. That would be either KillZone or Twilight Princess.

Those flops were epic.

Dreams-Visions

KillZone, sure, but not Twilight Princess. When it comes to TP's "flop," you're describing the masses of people who DISAGREED with GameSpot's score, even after they played it themselves.

If the meaning of the term "flop" is "a game that disappoints," then how is that a case of TP "flopping"? I would say it's more a case of gamers being massively disappointed by GameSpot than of gamers being disappointed by TP.

What the...has everyone forgotten about Twilight Princess? Was I the only one that remembered how the sheep reacted? That's the only game that truly broke system wars into a crazy panic, it was the biggest flop.ice144

[QUOTE="ice144"]What the...has everyone forgotten about Twilight Princess? Was I the only one that remembered how the sheep reacted? That's the only game that truly broke system wars into a crazy panic, it was the biggest flop.mjarantilla

In terms of score hype vs. reality, Lair is clearly the biggest.

But it wasn't the most significant flop. That would be either KillZone or Twilight Princess.

Those flops were epic.

Dreams-Visions

KillZone, sure, but not Twilight Princess. When it comes to TP's "flop," you're describing the masses of people who DISAGREED with GameSpot's score, even after they played it themselves.

If the meaning of the term "flop" is "a game that disappoints," then how is that a case of TP "flopping"? I would say it's more a case of gamers being massively disappointed by GameSpot than of gamers being disappointed by TP.

If we're talking about System Wars and only System Wars, TP is easily the victor(though I've head stories of the super mario sunshine one, but wasnt here then).

That is the only game that actually shook System Wars. No one was expecting it. Sure it didn't "disappoint" as you say, but it was easily the most impactful flop in SW history.

[QUOTE="ice144"]What the...has everyone forgotten about Twilight Princess? Was I the only one that remembered how the sheep reacted? That's the only game that truly broke system wars into a crazy panic, it was the biggest flop.mjarantilla

In terms of score hype vs. reality, Lair is clearly the biggest.

But it wasn't the most significant flop. That would be either KillZone or Twilight Princess.

Those flops were epic.

Dreams-Visions

KillZone, sure, but not Twilight Princess. When it comes to TP's "flop," you're describing the masses of people who DISAGREED with GameSpot's score, even after they played it themselves. If the meaning of the term "flop" is epitomized by the word "disappointment," then how is that a case of TP "flopping"? I would say it's more a case of gamers being massively disappointed by GAMESPOT, than of gamers being disappointed by TP.

but no, it was in fact, one of the biggest flops.

1.) it was the most recent child of a legendary series

2.) It was being hyped as the true successor to Majora's Mask (in quality)

3.) It met with almost a year of delays. Presumably to make it even better (though we now know it was them trying to port it to Wii)

4.) Wind Waker was a great game in its own right. People expected even more from the game with a more mature looking Link.

The game got hit pretty hard here, but I have found the game to be much closer to 8.8 than to the 94% it has at GameRankings.

Just my opinion, sure...but their hype...plus their reaction...makes it easily one of the most legendary flops.

BTW, 35% sheep? how the hell did that happen?

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="ice144"]What the...has everyone forgotten about Twilight Princess? Was I the only one that remembered how the sheep reacted? That's the only game that truly broke system wars into a crazy panic, it was the biggest flop.ice144

In terms of score hype vs. reality, Lair is clearly the biggest.

But it wasn't the most significant flop. That would be either KillZone or Twilight Princess.

Those flops were epic.

Dreams-Visions

KillZone, sure, but not Twilight Princess. When it comes to TP's "flop," you're describing the masses of people who DISAGREED with GameSpot's score, even after they played it themselves.

If the meaning of the term "flop" is "a game that disappoints," then how is that a case of TP "flopping"? I would say it's more a case of gamers being massively disappointed by GameSpot than of gamers being disappointed by TP.

If we're talking about System Wars and only System Wars, TP is easily the victor(though I've head stories of the super mario sunshine one, but wasnt here then).

That is the only game that actually shook System Wars. No one was expecting it. Sure it didn't "disappoint" as you say, but it was easily the most impactful flop in SW history.

The bolded, underlined portion is not true.

People have short memories, I know, but surely you haven't forgotten the flop that was RESISTANCE.

Cows hyped it as the second coming. The Halo killer. The Gears of War putter-to-shamer.

buh buh...the Cell.

buh buh...teh graphix.

that 8.8/8.9 hit them like a damn ton of bricks.

Gamespot became "LemmingSpot"

Gamespot became officially biased.

Porn suicides were going on for at least 3 days.

When it comes to flops in recent memory, Lair, Resistance and Twilight Princess take the cake.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="ice144"]What the...has everyone forgotten about Twilight Princess? Was I the only one that remembered how the sheep reacted? That's the only game that truly broke system wars into a crazy panic, it was the biggest flop.Dreams-Visions

In terms of score hype vs. reality, Lair is clearly the biggest.

But it wasn't the most significant flop. That would be either KillZone or Twilight Princess.

Those flops were epic.

Dreams-Visions

KillZone, sure, but not Twilight Princess. When it comes to TP's "flop," you're describing the masses of people who DISAGREED with GameSpot's score, even after they played it themselves. If the meaning of the term "flop" is epitomized by the word "disappointment," then how is that a case of TP "flopping"? I would say it's more a case of gamers being massively disappointed by GAMESPOT, than of gamers being disappointed by TP.

but no, it was in fact, one of the biggest flops.

1.) it was the most recent child of a legendary series

2.) It was being hyped as the true successor to Majora's Mask (in quality)

3.) It met with almost a year of delays. Presumably to make it even better (though we now know it was them trying to port it to Wii)

4.) Wind Waker was a great game in its own right. People expected even more from the game with a more mature looking Link.

The game got hit pretty hard here, but I have found the game to be much closer to 8.8 than to the 94% it has at GameRankings.

Just my opinion, sure...but their hype...plus their reaction...makes it easily one of the most legendary flops.

BTW, 35% sheep? how the hell did that happen?

I'll just repeat something from one of my previous posts:

------------

I'm overwhelmingly a hermit more than I am a sheep (ignore the sig; it's really more like 65%-15%-10%-10% now). I'm simply looking at facts. Lair was hyped AAA, and it was also hyped to have the "best graphics evar!" and to be the first true 1080p game to show the power of the PS3, AND to be the first game to utilize the SixAxis "correctly" (similarly to MP3's hype that it would be the first game to utilize the Wiimote correctly; MP3 met that hype). This was not some "extremist" opinion, because up till its release, no one had any evidence to the contrary.

It failed spectacularly on EVERY account. It failed on EVERY point it could have possibly failed at. It was simply a total failure of a game. And more importantly, opinions of its failure were virtually universal.

The same was NOT said about TP. The reaction to TP's score was directed against GameSpot, NOT the game itself. That is why I say it is the most public flop, but not the biggest. When you specifically use the term, "biggest flop ever," you're talking about a particular game's failure to meet expectations. In TP's case, it only failed to meet GameSpot's expectations. In Lair's case, it failed to meet everyone's expectations. It's clear which one is the bigger flop.

And to add something more current: if you bring 20/20 hindsight into the equation, then you must agree that Twilight Princess, in the long run, was nothing more than a mild disappointment, and definitely NOT the "biggest flop ever." Regarding your four points:

1) And it lived up to that standard. The only major objection laid against it was its lack of originality.

2) Which it was. Again, the only major objection was its lack of originality, NOT its quality.

3) This does not factor into its flop, especially since the biggest delay it experienced was due to it being ported to the Wii. Everyone knew the nature of that delay, and did not expect the game to be completely revamped because of it.

4) A minor factor at best. Some would say that it DID deliver on this expectation, but the side-effect of being a "more mature game" was a lesser capacity for uniqueness, which was more detrimental than the darker atmosphere was beneficial.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="ice144"]What the...has everyone forgotten about Twilight Princess? Was I the only one that remembered how the sheep reacted? That's the only game that truly broke system wars into a crazy panic, it was the biggest flop.ice144

In terms of score hype vs. reality, Lair is clearly the biggest.

But it wasn't the most significant flop. That would be either KillZone or Twilight Princess.

Those flops were epic.

Dreams-Visions

KillZone, sure, but not Twilight Princess. When it comes to TP's "flop," you're describing the masses of people who DISAGREED with GameSpot's score, even after they played it themselves.

If the meaning of the term "flop" is "a game that disappoints," then how is that a case of TP "flopping"? I would say it's more a case of gamers being massively disappointed by GameSpot than of gamers being disappointed by TP.

If we're talking about System Wars and only System Wars, TP is easily the victor(though I've head stories of the super mario sunshine one, but wasnt here then).

That is the only game that actually shook System Wars. No one was expecting it. Sure it didn't "disappoint" as you say, but it was easily the most impactful flop in SW history.

That's why I called it the most publicized flop in SW history, because its impact was on something other than the game itself. But the TC asked for the "biggest flop." Not the most publicized, not the most undeserved, not anything that doesn't relate directly to the game's reception among gamers.

Gamers may have been slightly disappointedby TP, and they might have been extremely disappointed in the score that GameSpot gave TP, but gamers were massively disappointed by Lair's quality on every conceivable level as a game. The only flop bigger was probably Daikatana, as I mentioned.

[QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="ice144"]What the...has everyone forgotten about Twilight Princess? Was I the only one that remembered how the sheep reacted? That's the only game that truly broke system wars into a crazy panic, it was the biggest flop.mjarantilla

In terms of score hype vs. reality, Lair is clearly the biggest.

But it wasn't the most significant flop. That would be either KillZone or Twilight Princess.

Those flops were epic.

Dreams-Visions

KillZone, sure, but not Twilight Princess. When it comes to TP's "flop," you're describing the masses of people who DISAGREED with GameSpot's score, even after they played it themselves. If the meaning of the term "flop" is epitomized by the word "disappointment," then how is that a case of TP "flopping"? I would say it's more a case of gamers being massively disappointed by GAMESPOT, than of gamers being disappointed by TP.

but no, it was in fact, one of the biggest flops.

1.) it was the most recent child of a legendary series

2.) It was being hyped as the true successor to Majora's Mask (in quality)

3.) It met with almost a year of delays. Presumably to make it even better (though we now know it was them trying to port it to Wii)

4.) Wind Waker was a great game in its own right. People expected even more from the game with a more mature looking Link.

The game got hit pretty hard here, but I have found the game to be much closer to 8.8 than to the 94% it has at GameRankings.

Just my opinion, sure...but their hype...plus their reaction...makes it easily one of the most legendary flops.

BTW, 35% sheep? how the hell did that happen?

I'll just repeat something from one of my previous posts:

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I'm overwhelmingly a hermit more than I am a sheep (ignore the sig; it's really more like 65%-15%-10%-10% now). I'm simply looking at facts. Lair was hyped AAA, and it was also hyped to have the "best graphics evar!" and to be the first true 1080p game to show the power of the PS3, AND to be the first game to utilize the SixAxis "correctly" (similarly to MP3's hype that it would be the first game to utilize the Wiimote correctly; MP3 met that hype). This was not some "extremist" opinion, because up till its release, no one had any evidence to the contrary.

It failed spectacularly on EVERY account. It failed on EVERY point it could have possibly failed at. It was simply a total failure of a game. And more importantly, opinions of its failure were virtually universal.

The same was NOT said about TP. The reaction to TP's score was directed against GameSpot, NOT the game itself. That is why I say it is the most public flop, but not the biggest. When you specifically use the term, "biggest flop ever," you're talking about a particular game's failure to meet expectations. In TP's case, it only failed to meet GameSpot's expectations. In Lair's case, it failed to meet everyone's expectations. It's clear which one is the bigger flop.

And to add something more current: if you bring 20/20 hindsight into the equation, then you must agree that Twilight Princess, in the long run, was nothing more than a mild disappointment, and definitely NOT the "biggest flop ever." Regarding your four points:

1) And it lived up to that standard. The only major objection laid against it was its lack of originality.

2) Which it was. Again, the only major objection was its lack of originality, NOT its quality.

3) This does not factor into its flop, especially since the biggest delay it experienced was due to it being ported to the Wii. Everyone knew the nature of that delay, and did not expect the game to be completely revamped because of it.

4) A minor factor at best. Some would say that it DID deliver on this expectation, but the side-effect of being a "more mature game" was a lesser capacity for uniqueness, which was more detrimental than the darker atmosphere was beneficial.

But the reality is that Cows started to back off of Lair as 2007 rode on.

Lair wasn't expected to be as bad as it was, so the final score provided a lot of laughs and pointing, but no cows really even defended the game. It was just plain bad.

That being said, Lair DID deliver in graphics. and sound. it was just the controls and lame gameplay that doomed it.

Insult to injury was "Factor 4.5" sending out manuals on how to play the game to the reviewers in a desperate attempt at damage control. all was hilarious

But because Cows started to dehype the game before it got slaughtered, it's failure was somewhat blunted. Twilight Princess was to be high AAA until the bitter end. that's why it's more memorable.

Complete with account porn suicides and Gamespot defections. Lair's score made no Cow leave or suicide. Other than those who made SW Bets.

I feel you on Lair, and as you know, that was the first game I listed.

But the reality is that Cows started to back off of Lair as 2007 rode on.

Lair wasn't expected to be as bad as it was, so the final score provided a lot of laughs and pointing, but no cows really even defended the game. It was just plain bad.

That being said, Lair DID deliver in graphics. and sound. it was just the controls and lame gameplay that doomed it.

Insult to injury was "Factor 4.5" sending out manuals on how to play the game to the reviewers in a desperate attempt at damage control. all was hilarious

But because Cows started to dehype the game before it got slaughtered, it's failure was somewhat blunted. Twilight Princess was to be high AAA until the bitter end. that's why it's more memorable.

Complete with account porn suicides and Gamespot defections. Lair's score made no Cow leave or suicide. Other than those who made SW Bets.Dreams-Visions

Who cares if no cows left? I'd say that a game that fans completely disavow and ignore due to its piss-poor quality is a far, far bigger flop than a game that makes fans stage a mass protest against what they think is an undeserved low score.

[QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"]I feel you on Lair, and as you know, that was the first game I listed.

But the reality is that Cows started to back off of Lair as 2007 rode on.

Lair wasn't expected to be as bad as it was, so the final score provided a lot of laughs and pointing, but no cows really even defended the game. It was just plain bad.

That being said, Lair DID deliver in graphics. and sound. it was just the controls and lame gameplay that doomed it.

Insult to injury was "Factor 4.5" sending out manuals on how to play the game to the reviewers in a desperate attempt at damage control. all was hilarious

But because Cows started to dehype the game before it got slaughtered, it's failure was somewhat blunted. Twilight Princess was to be high AAA until the bitter end. that's why it's more memorable.

Complete with account porn suicides and Gamespot defections. Lair's score made no Cow leave or suicide. Other than those who made SW Bets.mjarantilla

Who cares if no cows left? I'd say that a game that fans completely disavow and ignore due to its piss-poor quality is a far, far bigger flop than a game that makes fans stage a mass protest against what they think is an undeserved low score.

Sheep made TP a legendary flop.

Cows made Resistance a legendary flop.

speaking of TP...am I the only one who actually enjoyed Phantom Hourglass more?Shinobishyguy

Phantom Hourglass struck me more as an experiment that Nintendo was conducting on the viability of touch controls for Zelda. I expect the next DS Zelda to be exceedingly superior, perhaps even another 40/40 Famitsu, 10/10 GameSpot game.

speaking of TP...am I the only one who actually enjoyed Phantom Hourglass more?Shinobishyguy

And am i the only one who preferred The Minish Cap to both Phantom Hourglass and Twilight princess

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]speaking of TP...am I the only one who actually enjoyed Phantom Hourglass more?-DrRobotnik-

And am i the only one who preferred The Minish Cap to both Phantom Hourglass and Twilight princess

MC was too short...especially for a zelda game

When it comes to flops in recent memory, Lair, Resistance and Twilight Princess take the cake.

Dreams-Visions

Ratchet too surely. The insane reaction, combined with how it had "safe" AA hype and still failed, combined with the "too much variety" comment. It was quite epic.