Is specifically 2D Sonic better than 2D Mario?

Do think their is some merit in the country argument, or at least house hold to house hold. Not that it will equate to analytical arguments of fact and logic nor, counter to that, people will have an inability to be above it to see reality.

But taking into account, Sega was popular in the US, I think most kids (or at least the ones I knew) would have had one or the other, and like a family member VS a stranger their will be a natural inclination for many wither consciously or not, to have an internal bias ticking away.

Combine that with memories of "old times", rather than a compartmentalize picture of reality, it's generally one large romanticized distortion where good is great and bad and terrible, combined with years and years of that mentality resting becoming normalized to the point of difficult to challenge, a sense of betraying convictions held so vehemently as to be factual.

I think even with real gaming experts, the IGN's, we can see this.

Rather unrepentant, the neanderthal man literally takes pleasure in saying it, theirs a real tribal nastiness to it trying to present it as fact.

The funny thing about that is, rather than him getting people to jump aboard his point of view, the manner in which he delivers it (amassivecunt) most likely drove people further into Sonics welcoming blue arms.

Regardless, something.

Agreed. Sonic was more popular than Mario across much of the Western world in the early '90s. But in certain PAL countries, like the UK, we got exposed to Sonic and/or Alex Kidd before Mario. So Mario doesn't hold the same kind of nostalgia here like it does in the US.

The way I see it, Sonic is the kind of game you can keep replaying over and over again, and it gets better each time. Like an arcade game. Whereas with Mario, it's a done-and-dusted kind of game, the kind of game that you can enjoy the first time, but there's not much incentive to replay it and it's not as fun on replays.

Sega > Nintendo but 2D Mario > 2D Sonic. SMB 3 and SMW are just top tier. Also Sonic music is better than Maio music. I prefer Sonic Generations over all 3D mario I have played though. Hot take I know.

Said it before, I'll say it again.

8bit - Mario.

16bit - Sonic.

Ever since - Mario.

That said, Mania is my fave game out of either franchise for decades.

Sonic The Hedgehog was more technical, had superior replay value, and the more open ended level design made them more fun exploring too.

Not saying Mario was bad. But sonic was better.

Pressing down was my panic button in Sonic games. Killed whatever was in my way 90% of the time. There were a few enemies in later levels that attacked from the front however, but in those cases the general pace of the levels was vastly slowed down and oftenimes more verticle. I never felt the sonic games were cheap in enemy placement.

I enjoy both but I chose Mario. The main reason is because Sonic 1 was a terrible game and I thought Sonic CD was mediocre (2 was good, 3&K was great).

Granted I did enjoy Mania over any of the NSMB games. I just wished Mania had more newer zones and less old zones.

Love both, But Mario is just another level

Is there any else to sonic gameplay besides running fast?

The amount of completely absurd comments about what Sonic is and was in 2D is unbelievable. Just for the unenlightened about Sonic games:

• Sonic has plenty of precision platforming;
• No, speed is not "just" what the game is about. This is exactly what the 3D games get wrong. All speed, press forward. 2D Sonic has PLENTY of platforming;
• Sonic is a game of routes where some routes are faster than others, but it encourages replaying the level and exploring;
• Sonic is not just about speed and memory skill. In fact, playing any Sonic game the first go around will likely be much slower than multiple playthroughs, and yet, can still be beaten going "slow";
• I laughed at the moron who called Sonic "fast paced ring collecting." Might as well call Mario, slow paced coin collecting.

Mario has more levels, generally shorter. I grew up with both, and Mario is the better 2D platformer. The various levels, secrets, and world really give the game more scope and more to do. Specifically, I'm talking about Super Mario 3 and Super Mario World.

Sonic, namely Sonic 3 & Knuckles, is the definitive Sonic experience (save Sonic Mania). Huge levels, different routes (that get more plentiful when using other characters), precision platforming, great speed segments, amazing soundtracks, etc.

The only reason, for me, Sonic doesn't best Mario in 2D, is that Mario just has more to do. They're so different in most aspects, but Mario edges Sonic for being the larger game.

This picture is what I think of 2D Mario games versus 2D Sonic games:

The only time Sonic has beaten Mario is in 3D with Sonic Adventure. No 3D Mario game has matched its ambition so far. But that’s not saying much, I know.

One thing to note about classic sonic is that speed was a reward for playing well. If you didn't play well, 2D Sonic wouldnt be much faster than Mario (in fact, depending on the level, it would be outright slower). ESPECIALLY If you played the european versions.

When I bring up enemy placement/readability, it's not about them being cheap.

It's something that extends to obstacles in 2d Sonic level design in general.

Most platformers have you reacting to obstacles on screen. Given the player has a good grip on the mechanics, a foreknowledge of the obstacles ahead isn't required to progress at a smooth pace. And it's super satisfying to cleanly navigate those obstacles the first time through, simply because you as the player have the skill to do so. Likely won't be the most efficient way through, will still have tons of room to improve, but the initial run still can be finessed through pure skill. It can be satisfying from the get go, and improved upon through repetition.

In Sonic, without a healthy foreknowledge of the various routes, you will be stopped in your tracks. Enemies, walls, spikes, pits, springs that bounce you right back, etc. It's baked into the level design. They aren't issues on their own of course, but the decisions you must make to navigate them smoothly often happen well before they're on screen. It's not a matter of reaction, or mechanical mastery, the information simply isn't there.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that level/route memorization is all there is to Sonic, accurate timing and a solid grasp of the mechanics still carry a lot of weight even after you know your route. Clearly illustrated by better players.

And I'm not even saying that trial and error isn't a valid design choice (talking clean runs btw, not simply making it through, no trial and error there).

I just think it can provide a more well rounded approach and be better off for it. Designing levels in such a way that can be read and reacted to at an enjoyable pace, while still providing those slicker routes for replays and higher level play in general. Keep the foreknowledge as a reward, that's great, but ease up on the punishment for a lack there of. Allow for timing and mechanical competency to still carry weight early on, leading to a more natural and satisfying progression into better routes on replays.

I know this right here is a bit of a meme take - "Sonic wants you to go fast, but punishes you for going fast!"- But I get it. That is how the level design reads, stopping you in your tracks for not knowing what might be a screen or two in advance. Of course you can overcome it, but initially it's a drag.

Any terrible Sonic games is better than Mario.

Sonic = fast, exciting.

Mario = slow, boring.

be it 2d or 3d Sonic is best.

Sega does what Nintedon't :)

I never had any issues reacting to anything. Maybe this is due to me playing the PAL version which ran around 20% slower. But I never had any issues reacting to anything on screen.

This is also why I thought that Sonic's Speed was nothing more than a marketing gimmick. Because in those 2d games, I actually felt Sonic was SLOWER than some Mario games.

Sonic 2 was revolutionary for the time I still go back and play it every now and again 2D Mario just seemed sluggish in comparison.

@ConanTheStoner:

You're missing the point of Sonic's game design.

2D Sonic isn't about just quickly reacting to what's on screen, but it's about anticipating what is up ahead. And most of those obstacles can be quite easily overcome by just pressing down or spin dashing beforehand.

2D Sonic isn't just about speed, but it's about platforming, first and foremost. As Maroxad notes, the speed is the rewarding experience you get after mastering the game. Sonic is designed with replay value, not the kind of game you only play once. The levels are open-ended sandbox stages that you can experiment with and explore different paths in repeat playthroughs.

Not even c close, I've only liked Sonic 2 and even that didn't blow me away. Doesn't come close to all the 2D Mario games since the nes.

I do like Sonic Generations though.

I have many Sonic games and I've tried, but they're so hit and miss imo.

Yikes, that is mad slow lol.

Still, that gameplay isn't really illustrating what I'm talking about, that's some really noobish play. You would never need to anticipate what's ahead as you don't have the speed and momentum for it to matter. Guy is just plodding about.

I mean when you're actually playing to the games speed, it's a matter of knowing what's ahead.

Sonic is much faster than Mario when you're hitting routes correctly and maintaining momentum.

Bold is untrue.

Anyways man, not sure how you read my post and decided to answer with that lol. Basically just repeated bullet points I already addressed, in detail, in my post as well as previous posts.

Edit: To be extra clear, repeating myself, but I'm not saying these aren't valid design choices. I'm not saying that they make the games bad.

If you read the last two paragraphs of my previous post, you'll see what I'm driving at. Sonic doesn't have to be that game that only starts to shine on replays.

@ConanTheStoner: Yeah, my point there was to highlight just how slow, and thus easy it was for us europeans to react to everything :P Just look at how slow sonic runs and listen to how slow the music is.

The game was that slow for us regardless of skill. Due to poor optimization for european frequencies 50 Hz (vs 60 Hz).

@Maroxad:

Yeah that is pretty wild man lol. I had heard about it before, but never saw it in action, figured it was just exaggerated.

That's crazy, were other games affected like that?

Super Mario and it's not even a contest.

Why is Mario better in your opinion?

I never really liked the level design, specially on the first one ... i always thought it was kind of bad and i just didn't have that much fun whenever i played that game. I will admit that Sonic 3 was good and IMO is the best of the original trilogy.

On the other side, i always had so much fun playing Super Mario ... from Super Mario 1 to 3 they all are so damn fun ... and then Super Mario World, that game is still one of my favorite on the SNES and Yoshi's Island is amazing as well.

I'll admit i'm not that fond of either in the most recent games (but Sonic Mania does look fun)

Oh, also ... the music is again IMO far better and memorable in Super Mario than Sonic (maybe i wasn't that much into the "edgy super cool" Sonic image they were portraying)

Most console games were, unless they were specifically optimized for 50 Hz. Super Mario Bros 1 was optimized and ran at roughly the same rate. While Super Mario World wasn't and was around 10% slower.

It was really noticeable in Sonic though, for better or worse. Not only was Sonic around 20% slower. But the 20% slower rate, meant that PAL version players were easily able to react to anything that came on the screen. To us Sonic was just as fast as any other platformer hero. Only really getting that speed he is known for when spindashing or rolling down a slope.

In fact, up until Sonic Mega Collection. I actually thought that a dashing Mario ran faster than Sonic.

@madsnakehhh: I see.

I'd kind of agree with the music. I mean, the games mentioned, the classic Marios, haven't touched those since well.. before many gaming journalists were born.

But this firmly sits in my mind easily.

Can't really say the same for Sonic games, I and played them far more, and more recently.

@uninspiredcup: Mario music is dull and boring. It makes me feel sleepy just listening to it. I'd rather watch paint dry than listen to Mario music.

I prefer Mario. Sonic is also very good. I think it's funny how Sonic has the reputation for being fast-paced, but actually really encourages you to slow down and collect the rings if you want to get the gemstones and truly beat the game. Also, the jumping in Sonic is slow and floaty compared to Mario, which is the main reason Mario is the better platformer.

I know this might seem minor, but I'll just say it.

One of the reasons why I love Sonic's 2D Games more then Mario's is because the boss fights are not only much better, they are much more memorable.

If there's one weakness to Mario's 2D games, its the fact that for most of his adventures the boss fights are nothing special. Most of the time, you fight the same type of boss over and over, with the only variation in their patterns and some new attacks.

It should say something when the 2D Mario with the best boss fights is Super Mario Land 2.

But Sonic on the other hand has some of the best boss fights in a platformer. Every encounter(barring some throwback fights) is different and it keeps you on your toes as you try to get used to the pattern of the boss,

Sonic CD and Sonic Mania are by far the best examples in this regard with some insanely good boss fights such as the Metal Sonic race, the Bubble Machine in Tidal Tempest, The Puyo Puyo match, the Weather Machine Boss, and pretty much every fight with the Hard-Boiled Heavies.

In Mario, the boss fights just feel like something to get out of the way to finish a fortress or world. In Sonic, boss fights mean something and are some of the best parts of the game in my opinion.

Super Mario World is better than every 2D Sonic (hell, every single Sonic game) combined imo. I've never understood the appeal of 2D Sonic games. The level design and artstyle is just nonsensical to me.

@Jag85: Can't see I agree, at least from a incredibly surface level "tunes I remember".

Come to think of it, I kinda remember the MS/GG music over the Genesis. Specifically Scap Brain theme.

Checking, do think it's better than this one.

@uninspiredcup: Fair enough. Mario music is not bad. But it's incredibly overrated. Sonic music is so much better than Mario music.

Sonic's Master System soundtracks hold their own against the Mega Drive soundtracks. It's worth noting that the first Sonic SMS soundtrack was composed by Yuzo Koshiro (known for Streets of Rage and a bunch of other stuff). It's also worth noting that "Bridge Zone" from the first Sonic SMS soundtrack sounds similar to a later hit Janet Jackson song, "Together Again" (might have something to do with that Michael Jackson and Sonic connection).

Yep. Big fan of 8-bit Sonic (1), prefer it over the Genesis game.

Goes downhill afterwards unfortunately. 8-bit Sonic 2 is pretty fucking awful.

I liked both, but Mario was more versatile and better. Nintendo was to get way more out of him across more genres as Sonic was one sided. Super Mario RPG is still awesome.

Nani?! No way, bruv! SMS Sonic 2 had a great 8-bit soundtrack, on-par with the first SMS Sonic soundtrack. One of the tracks from SMS Sonic 2, Green Hills Zone, later became the theme song for Sonic CD.

Oh, talking about gameplay.

Yea, great OST.

I'm more of a Mario fan as an adult to be honest.

As a kid I probably preferred Sonic. I remember playing Sonic Heroes religiously on the Gamecube as well as Sonic Adventure 2 Battle.

I guess what it comes down to for me is that I prefer the levels within Mario games. They're more challenging in my opinion. With most Sonic stuff, you can just plough through the levels. At least this is what I remember. On another note, the last Sonic game I truly enjoyed was Sonic Unleashed. :P

@uninspiredcup: Did you play the Master System or Game Gear version? If you mean the GG version, then yeah, the gameplay sucked because of the lower resolution. But the SMS version had solid gameplay, which improved on the first SMS game.