Is the Wii REALLY Dishing it to Sony and MS

Thanks to anasbouzid for posting the article about thoughful posts. I read the linked story within the post and it begged this question--Is the Wii really dishing out a butt-kicking to Sony and MS?

In terms of profitability? Yes. Each Wii is (and has been) profitable right out of the box. Each unit sold is fat city for Nintendo and, as we all know, if it`s something the Wii has, it`s sales.

But I think execs on both sides of the ball at Sony and MS are correct when they assert that the Wii, inspite of its wild success, is not taking anything away from their core audiences. That is, hardcore gamers, even if they decide to purchase a Wii, will likely also purchase a PS3 or 360 for that cutting/leading edge gaming experience. More simply: MS and Sony are offering a different experience to a set of consumers with different needs than those who would exclusively purchase a Wii.

Am I wrong?

that's always the biggest knock on the wii and I can't deny it. I bought a wii thinking I wouldn't get anything else and now I have a ps3 as well.

Well looks at the DS. At the beginning you could have argued that it wasn't taking anything away from Sony and it's profitability because of it's focus on the expanded audience. Fast forward to the present and it has all the hardcore games, momentum and third party support.

I expect the wii to do exactly the same over the next 2-4 years and by then it will be far too late for Sony and Microsoft to do anything about it.

I doubt it is taking away much of an audience from them.

Here is the real situation.

Sony and Microsoft are both sitting there, gloating, because they each have the piece of the pie. Nintendo is just gathering up some useless flower, sugar, water, butter, tapioca, and assorted fruits. But we'll see who has the last laugh when Nintendo sticks all those ingrediants in the oven. Granted, I doubt the majority will come through, but in the end, Nintendo is going to have a lot of new pie.

I doubt it is taking away much of an audience from them.

Here is the real situation.

Sony and Microsoft are both sitting there, gloating, because they each have the piece of the pie. Nintendo is just gathering up some useless flower, sugar, water, butter, tapioca, and assorted fruits. But we'll see who has the last laugh when Nintendo sticks all those ingrediants in the oven. Granted, I doubt the majority will come through, but in the end, Nintendo is going to have a lot of new pie.

Tylendal

Absolutely. To argue Nintendo`s dominance from a strictly businesses standpoint is a foolish endeavor. But I still think hardcore gamers will find true north on other platforms, which will always engender a need for higher end technology. Nintendo has effectively carved out a new market for itself, and it just so happens to be larger than the market we all THOUGHT of as the gaming market.

[QUOTE="Tylendal"]

I doubt it is taking away much of an audience from them.

Here is the real situation.

Sony and Microsoft are both sitting there, gloating, because they each have the piece of the pie. Nintendo is just gathering up some useless flower, sugar, water, butter, tapioca, and assorted fruits. But we'll see who has the last laugh when Nintendo sticks all those ingrediants in the oven. Granted, I doubt the majority will come through, but in the end, Nintendo is going to have a lot of new pie.

CubeJL

Absolutely. To argue Nintendo`s dominance from a strictly businesses standpoint is a foolsih endeavor. But I still think hardcore gamers will find true north on other platforms, which will always engender a need for higher end technology. Nintendo has effectively carved out a new market for itself, and it just so happens to be larger than the market we all THOUGHT of as the gaming market.

Maybe my metaphor was not clear enough. I'm saying that Nintendos new market will work its way up to hardcore, just as they did back in 1985. I, personally, expect the amount of hardcore games on the Wii, as well as the amount of first party support to spike at about a year and a half before the next console is released.

While things may be a little weak for any hardcore trying to be a Wii only owner this gen, I expect next gen will have a huge hardcore market.

Well looks at the DS. At the beginning you could have argued that it wasn't taking anything away from Sony and it's profitability because of it's focus on the expanded audience. Fast forward to the present and it has all the hardcore games, momentum and third party support.

I expect the wii to do exactly the same over the next 2-4 years and by then it will be far too late for Sony and Microsoft to do anything about it.

Popadophalis

Yes. This goes back to the HUGE market of casual gamers Nintendo has overturned (nearly half of which are women, according to Nintendo`s recent presentation at E3 by the way). In the mobile market there are such slim pickings when it comes to choice...two shows in town---the PSP and DS. I still argue that hardcores will gravitate to the PSP for its higher fidelity gaming experience, however. The PSP market is respectable in its own right.

[QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="Tylendal"]

I doubt it is taking away much of an audience from them.

Here is the real situation.

Sony and Microsoft are both sitting there, gloating, because they each have the piece of the pie. Nintendo is just gathering up some useless flower, sugar, water, butter, tapioca, and assorted fruits. But we'll see who has the last laugh when Nintendo sticks all those ingrediants in the oven. Granted, I doubt the majority will come through, but in the end, Nintendo is going to have a lot of new pie.

Tylendal

Absolutely. To argue Nintendo`s dominance from a strictly businesses standpoint is a foolsih endeavor. But I still think hardcore gamers will find true north on other platforms, which will always engender a need for higher end technology. Nintendo has effectively carved out a new market for itself, and it just so happens to be larger than the market we all THOUGHT of as the gaming market.

Maybe my metaphor was not clear enough. I'm saying that Nintendos new market will work its way up to hardcore, just as they did back in 1985. I, personally, expect the amount of hardcore games on the Wii, as well as the amount of first party support to spike at about a year and a half before the next console is released.

While things may be a little weak for any hardcore trying to be a Wii only owner this gen, I expect next gen will have a huge hardcore market.

Your metaphor was plenty clear, I just disagree. I don`t see hardcore gamers gravitating to the Wii anytime soon....especially not in the future when substantive differences in game quality will only continue to widen by that point.

The more interesting question for me is what Nintendo`s NEXT console approach will be.

[QUOTE="Tylendal"][QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="Tylendal"]

I doubt it is taking away much of an audience from them.

Here is the real situation.

Sony and Microsoft are both sitting there, gloating, because they each have the piece of the pie. Nintendo is just gathering up some useless flower, sugar, water, butter, tapioca, and assorted fruits. But we'll see who has the last laugh when Nintendo sticks all those ingrediants in the oven. Granted, I doubt the majority will come through, but in the end, Nintendo is going to have a lot of new pie.

CubeJL

Absolutely. To argue Nintendo`s dominance from a strictly businesses standpoint is a foolsih endeavor. But I still think hardcore gamers will find true north on other platforms, which will always engender a need for higher end technology. Nintendo has effectively carved out a new market for itself, and it just so happens to be larger than the market we all THOUGHT of as the gaming market.

Maybe my metaphor was not clear enough. I'm saying that Nintendos new market will work its way up to hardcore, just as they did back in 1985. I, personally, expect the amount of hardcore games on the Wii, as well as the amount of first party support to spike at about a year and a half before the next console is released.

While things may be a little weak for any hardcore trying to be a Wii only owner this gen, I expect next gen will have a huge hardcore market.

Your metaphor was plenty clear, I just disagree. I don`t see hardcore gamers gravitating to the Wii anytime soon....especially not in the future when substantive differences in game quality will only continue to widen by that point.

The more interesting question for me is what Nintendo`s NEXT console approach will be.

Sorry. What I'm saying is that there is no reason for a casual to stay casual. A hardcore gamer will buy more games than a casual gamer, so it is in Nintendo's best interests to try and put a casual gamer on the path to becoming a hardcore gamer. It worked twenty years (actually 23, but 20 sounds much better poetically) ago, and there is no reason it can't work now.

Remember, we were all casuals once. I personally believe that we're gamers because of how we were introduced to video-games, not some built in 'instinct' (perhaps not the best word). What Nintendo is trying to do is to use games that can draw in people who have already dismissed gaming as a form of entertainment.

[QUOTE="Popadophalis"]

Well looks at the DS. At the beginning you could have argued that it wasn't taking anything away from Sony and it's profitability because of it's focus on the expanded audience. Fast forward to the present and it has all the hardcore games, momentum and third party support.

I expect the wii to do exactly the same over the next 2-4 years and by then it will be far too late for Sony and Microsoft to do anything about it.

CubeJL

Yes. This goes back to the HUGE market of casual gamers Nintendo has overturned (nearly half of which are women, according to Nintendo`s recent presentation at E3), by the way. In the mobile market there are such slim pickings when it comes to choice...two shows in town---the PSP and DS. I still argue that hardcores will gravitate to the PSP for its higher fidelity gaming experience, however. The PSP market is respectable in its own right.

While both handhelds have a fairly decent selection of games, handhelds have never been about "high fidelity gaming" it's always been about playing on the go and portability.

I think by the end of this generation Nintendo will have become the most hardcore focused company around but it won't be in a way most of us typically think of harcore. Nintendo isn't going to reproduce the hardcore games of today they're going to do something much larger by redefining what hardcore is. New wii gamers will never graduate to the 360 and play gears of war with restrictive analog sticks but they'll sure give a shooter on Wii a try when all they have to do is point at the screen.

Nintendo isn't going to "hand it" to Microsoft and Sony by beating them at their own game it's going to destroy them by both redefining and completely inundating the old game.

[QUOTE="Popadophalis"]

Well looks at the DS. At the beginning you could have argued that it wasn't taking anything away from Sony and it's profitability because of it's focus on the expanded audience. Fast forward to the present and it has all the hardcore games, momentum and third party support.

I expect the wii to do exactly the same over the next 2-4 years and by then it will be far too late for Sony and Microsoft to do anything about it.

CubeJL

Yes. This goes back to the HUGE market of casual gamers Nintendo has overturned (nearly half of which are women, according to Nintendo`s recent presentation at E3 by the way). In the mobile market there are such slim pickings when it comes to choice...two shows in town---the PSP and DS. I still argue that hardcores will gravitate to the PSP for its higher fidelity gaming experience, however. The PSP market is respectable in its own right.

I'm not denying that the PSP has its own market, but at the same time you must admit that the D.S. has an incredibly significant hardcore following.

[QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="Popadophalis"]

Well looks at the DS. At the beginning you could have argued that it wasn't taking anything away from Sony and it's profitability because of it's focus on the expanded audience. Fast forward to the present and it has all the hardcore games, momentum and third party support.

I expect the wii to do exactly the same over the next 2-4 years and by then it will be far too late for Sony and Microsoft to do anything about it.

Popadophalis

Yes. This goes back to the HUGE market of casual gamers Nintendo has overturned (nearly half of which are women, according to Nintendo`s recent presentation at E3), by the way. In the mobile market there are such slim pickings when it comes to choice...two shows in town---the PSP and DS. I still argue that hardcores will gravitate to the PSP for its higher fidelity gaming experience, however. The PSP market is respectable in its own right.

While both handhelds have a fairly decent selection of games, handhelds have never been about "high fidelity gaming" it's always been about playing on the go and portability.

I think by the end of this generation Nintendo will have become the most hardcore focused company around but it won't be in a way most of us typically think of harcore. Nintendo isn't going to reproduce the hardcore games of today they're going to do something much larger by redefining what hardcore is. New wii gamers will never graduate to the 360 and play gears of war with restrictive analog sticks but they'll sure give a shooter on Wii a try when all they have to do is point at the screen.

Nintendo isn't going to "hand it" to Microsoft and Sony by beating them at their own game it's going to destroy them by both redefining and completely inundating the old game.

Of course, by hardcore, I me an those who desire a high fidelity gaming experience. This is a market systems like the Wii can never satisfy. I think the phenomenon we are looking at here is the emergence of a HUGE casual gamer market. Nintendo has marginalized Sony and MS`s market to a comparitively smaller slice of hardcore gamers.

Ultimately, if gaming is to become anything more than simplistic, machismo escapism for teens and twentysomethings, the hardcore will eventually have to become irrelevant to the growth of gaming, and that is what the Wii and DS are doing.

[QUOTE="Popadophalis"][QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="Popadophalis"]

Well looks at the DS. At the beginning you could have argued that it wasn't taking anything away from Sony and it's profitability because of it's focus on the expanded audience. Fast forward to the present and it has all the hardcore games, momentum and third party support.

I expect the wii to do exactly the same over the next 2-4 years and by then it will be far too late for Sony and Microsoft to do anything about it.

CubeJL

Yes. This goes back to the HUGE market of casual gamers Nintendo has overturned (nearly half of which are women, according to Nintendo`s recent presentation at E3), by the way. In the mobile market there are such slim pickings when it comes to choice...two shows in town---the PSP and DS. I still argue that hardcores will gravitate to the PSP for its higher fidelity gaming experience, however. The PSP market is respectable in its own right.

While both handhelds have a fairly decent selection of games, handhelds have never been about "high fidelity gaming" it's always been about playing on the go and portability.

I think by the end of this generation Nintendo will have become the most hardcore focused company around but it won't be in a way most of us typically think of harcore. Nintendo isn't going to reproduce the hardcore games of today they're going to do something much larger by redefining what hardcore is. New wii gamers will never graduate to the 360 and play gears of war with restrictive analog sticks but they'll sure give a shooter on Wii a try when all they have to do is point at the screen.

Nintendo isn't going to "hand it" to Microsoft and Sony by beating them at their own game it's going to destroy them by both redefining and completely inundating the old game.

Of course, by hardcore, I me an those who desire a high fidelity gaming experience. This is a market systems like the Wii can never satisfy. I think the phenomenon we are looking at here is the emergence of a HUGE casual gamer market. Nintendo has marginalized Sony and MS`s market to a comparitively smaller slice of hardcore gamers.

But I wouldn't call that hardcore, I'd just call that technophilia. In my opinion, hardcore means an obsession with the quality of the gameplay experiance, and less concerned about hardware capabilities.

[QUOTE="Popadophalis"][QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="Popadophalis"]

Well looks at the DS. At the beginning you could have argued that it wasn't taking anything away from Sony and it's profitability because of it's focus on the expanded audience. Fast forward to the present and it has all the hardcore games, momentum and third party support.

I expect the wii to do exactly the same over the next 2-4 years and by then it will be far too late for Sony and Microsoft to do anything about it.

CubeJL

Yes. This goes back to the HUGE market of casual gamers Nintendo has overturned (nearly half of which are women, according to Nintendo`s recent presentation at E3), by the way. In the mobile market there are such slim pickings when it comes to choice...two shows in town---the PSP and DS. I still argue that hardcores will gravitate to the PSP for its higher fidelity gaming experience, however. The PSP market is respectable in its own right.

While both handhelds have a fairly decent selection of games, handhelds have never been about "high fidelity gaming" it's always been about playing on the go and portability.

I think by the end of this generation Nintendo will have become the most hardcore focused company around but it won't be in a way most of us typically think of harcore. Nintendo isn't going to reproduce the hardcore games of today they're going to do something much larger by redefining what hardcore is. New wii gamers will never graduate to the 360 and play gears of war with restrictive analog sticks but they'll sure give a shooter on Wii a try when all they have to do is point at the screen.

Nintendo isn't going to "hand it" to Microsoft and Sony by beating them at their own game it's going to destroy them by both redefining and completely inundating the old game.

Of course, by hardcore, I me an those who desire a high fidelity gaming experience. This is a market systems like the Wii can never satisfy. I think the phenomenon we are looking at here is the emergence of a HUGE casual gamer market. Nintendo has marginalized Sony and MS`s market to a comparitively smaller slice of hardcore gamers.

I'm getting tired of calling 360/PS3 gamers "hardcore."

I'd rather call them "testosterone-addicted."

[QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="Popadophalis"][QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="Popadophalis"]

Well looks at the DS. At the beginning you could have argued that it wasn't taking anything away from Sony and it's profitability because of it's focus on the expanded audience. Fast forward to the present and it has all the hardcore games, momentum and third party support.

I expect the wii to do exactly the same over the next 2-4 years and by then it will be far too late for Sony and Microsoft to do anything about it.

Tylendal

Yes. This goes back to the HUGE market of casual gamers Nintendo has overturned (nearly half of which are women, according to Nintendo`s recent presentation at E3), by the way. In the mobile market there are such slim pickings when it comes to choice...two shows in town---the PSP and DS. I still argue that hardcores will gravitate to the PSP for its higher fidelity gaming experience, however. The PSP market is respectable in its own right.

While both handhelds have a fairly decent selection of games, handhelds have never been about "high fidelity gaming" it's always been about playing on the go and portability.

I think by the end of this generation Nintendo will have become the most hardcore focused company around but it won't be in a way most of us typically think of harcore. Nintendo isn't going to reproduce the hardcore games of today they're going to do something much larger by redefining what hardcore is. New wii gamers will never graduate to the 360 and play gears of war with restrictive analog sticks but they'll sure give a shooter on Wii a try when all they have to do is point at the screen.

Nintendo isn't going to "hand it" to Microsoft and Sony by beating them at their own game it's going to destroy them by both redefining and completely inundating the old game.

Of course, by hardcore, I me an those who desire a high fidelity gaming experience. This is a market systems like the Wii can never satisfy. I think the phenomenon we are looking at here is the emergence of a HUGE casual gamer market. Nintendo has marginalized Sony and MS`s market to a comparitively smaller slice of hardcore gamers.

But I wouldn't call that hardcore, I'd just call that technophilia. In my opinion, hardcore means an obsession with the quality of the gameplay experiance, and less concerned about hardware capabilities.

Then our differences seem to lie in terminology. Also, I think the `quality of the gameplay experience` you are referring to is directly proportionate to hardware in alot of cases. Image and sound quality, depth of field, AI, and selection. If I want to play the latest Final Fantasy or GTA, for instance, I will need a 360 or PS3.

I'm getting tired of calling 360/PS3 gamers "hardcore."

I'd rather call them "testosterone-addicted."

mjarantilla

Too right. What's just as frustrating is that Hardcore games are now solely defined by HD graphics...

[QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="Popadophalis"][QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="Popadophalis"]

Well looks at the DS. At the beginning you could have argued that it wasn't taking anything away from Sony and it's profitability because of it's focus on the expanded audience. Fast forward to the present and it has all the hardcore games, momentum and third party support.

I expect the wii to do exactly the same over the next 2-4 years and by then it will be far too late for Sony and Microsoft to do anything about it.

mjarantilla

Yes. This goes back to the HUGE market of casual gamers Nintendo has overturned (nearly half of which are women, according to Nintendo`s recent presentation at E3), by the way. In the mobile market there are such slim pickings when it comes to choice...two shows in town---the PSP and DS. I still argue that hardcores will gravitate to the PSP for its higher fidelity gaming experience, however. The PSP market is respectable in its own right.

While both handhelds have a fairly decent selection of games, handhelds have never been about "high fidelity gaming" it's always been about playing on the go and portability.

I think by the end of this generation Nintendo will have become the most hardcore focused company around but it won't be in a way most of us typically think of harcore. Nintendo isn't going to reproduce the hardcore games of today they're going to do something much larger by redefining what hardcore is. New wii gamers will never graduate to the 360 and play gears of war with restrictive analog sticks but they'll sure give a shooter on Wii a try when all they have to do is point at the screen.

Nintendo isn't going to "hand it" to Microsoft and Sony by beating them at their own game it's going to destroy them by both redefining and completely inundating the old game.

Of course, by hardcore, I me an those who desire a high fidelity gaming experience. This is a market systems like the Wii can never satisfy. I think the phenomenon we are looking at here is the emergence of a HUGE casual gamer market. Nintendo has marginalized Sony and MS`s market to a comparitively smaller slice of hardcore gamers.

I'm getting tired of calling 360/PS3 gamers "hardcore."

I'd rather call them "testosterone-addicted."

OK.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

I'm getting tired of calling 360/PS3 gamers "hardcore."

I'd rather call them "testosterone-addicted."

Popadophalis

:D Too right. It's equally frustrating to see Hardcore games defined solely by HD graphics...

Has anyone here defined hardcore gamers as such?

So what you're saying is that even WITHOUT the Wii, the XBox360 and PS3 would still be selling fairly poorly?EddyPee

Clever. But no. I am saying that the PS3 and 360 will continue to sell in spite of the Wii.

So what you're saying is that even WITHOUT the Wii, the XBox360 and PS3 would still be selling fairly poorly?EddyPee

Probably. I don't think they're selling poorly, just slowly. The PS3 is still far above the price point of the PS2.

[QUOTE="Popadophalis"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

I'm getting tired of calling 360/PS3 gamers "hardcore."

I'd rather call them "testosterone-addicted."

CubeJL

:D Too right. It's equally frustrating to see Hardcore games defined solely by HD graphics...

Has anyone here defined hardcore gamers as such?

Nope at least not in this thread but you said it yourself gaming quality is directly proportionate to the hardware. Yet which platform is Dragon Quest 9 - a MAJOR SE franchise- appearing on? Yup the graphically inferior DS. What if the next major Final Fantasy was on a Nintendo console? Would that suddenly make the gameplay poorer?

[QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="Popadophalis"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

I'm getting tired of calling 360/PS3 gamers "hardcore."

I'd rather call them "testosterone-addicted."

Popadophalis

:D Too right. It's equally frustrating to see Hardcore games defined solely by HD graphics...

Has anyone here defined hardcore gamers as such?

Nope at least not in this thread but you said it yourself gaming quality is directly proportionate to the hardware. Yet which platform is Dragon Quest 9 - a MAJOR SE franchise- appearing on? Yup the graphically inferior DS. What if the next major Final Fantasy was on a Nintendo console?

If FFXIII came to the Wii I would wager it would be either a drastically scaled down version or a completely different / re-engineered experience. My point is that those studios and gamers who want something a bit more high fidelity than that which the Wii can offer will always seek asylum elsewhere.

If FFXIII came to the Wii I would wager it would be either a drastically scaled down version or a completely different / re-engineered experience. My point is that those studios and gamers who want something a bit more high fidelity than that which the Wii can offer will always seek asylum elsewhere.

CubeJL

If what you say is true, then they'd go to PC, because that blows all the consoles out of the water in terms of "high fidelity" gaming.

And, I think that popadophalis was referring to FFXIV

[QUOTE="EddyPee"]So what you're saying is that even WITHOUT the Wii, the XBox360 and PS3 would still be selling fairly poorly?CubeJL

Clever. But no. I am saying that the PS3 and 360 will continue to sell in spite of the Wii.

PS2 sold 120 million, didn't it? So that arguably is Sony's core audience. But the Wii is taking that audience away, and thus really is dishing it to Sony.

And you can't say that Sony and MS wouldn't willingly swap places with Nintendo and the Wii.

[QUOTE="CubeJL"]

If FFXIII came to the Wii I would wager it would be either a drastically scaled down version or a completely different / re-engineered experience. My point is that those studios and gamers who want something a bit more high fidelity than that which the Wii can offer will always seek asylum elsewhere.

Tylendal

If what you say is true, then they'd go to PC, because that blows all the consoles out of the water in terms of "high fidelity" gaming.

And, I think that popadophalis was referring to FFXIV

Now you are jumping to conclusions. Yet, I DO include PC gamers in with the higher fidelity loving crowd / hardcore gamer. Take your pick on terminology. My point is this---for those of us who desire a richer, fuller, more realistic fidelity, there are, and will likely always be, options. This is the quintessential PS3 360 market at the moment.

[QUOTE="CubeJL"]

If FFXIII came to the Wii I would wager it would be either a drastically scaled down version or a completely different / re-engineered experience. My point is that those studios and gamers who want something a bit more high fidelity than that which the Wii can offer will always seek asylum elsewhere.

Tylendal

If what you say is true, then they'd go to PC, because that blows all the consoles out of the water in terms of "high fidelity" gaming.

And, I think that popadophalis was referring to FFXIV

You try to put the PC out there???? People buy a 360 or PS3 for a next gen experience. People buy a Wii for a last gen "but something different" experience.

Wii gets alot of the same games as PS3 or 360, but they are the same dumbed down version the PS2 gets, if you are happy with that then so be it.

[QUOTE="Tylendal"][QUOTE="CubeJL"]

If FFXIII came to the Wii I would wager it would be either a drastically scaled down version or a completely different / re-engineered experience. My point is that those studios and gamers who want something a bit more high fidelity than that which the Wii can offer will always seek asylum elsewhere.

CubeJL

If what you say is true, then they'd go to PC, because that blows all the consoles out of the water in terms of "high fidelity" gaming.

And, I think that popadophalis was referring to FFXIV

Now you are jumping to conclusions. Yet, I DO include PC gamers in with the higher fidelity loving crowd / hardcore gamer. Take your pick on terminology. My point is this---for those of us who desire a richer, fuller, more realistic fidelity, there are, and will likely always be, options. This is the quintessential PS3 360 market at the moment.

At the moment you are right but unfortunately that market is unsustainable and won't be around for much longer.

[QUOTE="CubeJL"]

[QUOTE="EddyPee"]So what you're saying is that even WITHOUT the Wii, the XBox360 and PS3 would still be selling fairly poorly?EddyPee

Clever. But no. I am saying that the PS3 and 360 will continue to sell in spite of the Wii.

PS2 sold 120 million, didn't it? So that arguably is Sony's core audience. But the Wii is taking that audience away, and thus really is dishing it to Sony.

And you can't say that Sony and MS wouldn't willingly swap places with Nintendo and the Wii.

Notice in my original post that I give full credit to Nintendo as far as sheer scale of business is concerned. What am I proposing is that there is a market, a slice, of customers that the Wii will not appeal to. This is the market that will continue to drive PS3 and 360 sales.

As far as switching places, I doubt it. I think next generation we will likely see MS and/or Sony offer gaming solutions that will try to capture both markets, including the new market Nitendo has uncovered. But that is a discussion for another thread.

[QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="Tylendal"][QUOTE="CubeJL"]

If FFXIII came to the Wii I would wager it would be either a drastically scaled down version or a completely different / re-engineered experience. My point is that those studios and gamers who want something a bit more high fidelity than that which the Wii can offer will always seek asylum elsewhere.

Popadophalis

If what you say is true, then they'd go to PC, because that blows all the consoles out of the water in terms of "high fidelity" gaming.

And, I think that popadophalis was referring to FFXIV

Now you are jumping to conclusions. Yet, I DO include PC gamers in with the higher fidelity loving crowd / hardcore gamer. Take your pick on terminology. My point is this---for those of us who desire a richer, fuller, more realistic fidelity, there are, and will likely always be, options. This is the quintessential PS3 360 market at the moment.

At the moment you are right but unfortunately that market is unsustainable and won't be around for much longer.

I have been throwing way to many metaphors lately, so here's one more before I turn in for the night :twisted:

Hardcore gaming is a fire (almost threw "like" in there, which would have turned it into a simile, which is completely different). This fire is burning fiercely, but it only has so much fuel. Eventually that fuel will all burn up, and the fire will die. Nintendo is the pyromaniac out to chop down the casual trees and throw them on the fire. (This is my most gruesome metaphor yet, I really need to go to bed).

[QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="Tylendal"][QUOTE="CubeJL"]

If FFXIII came to the Wii I would wager it would be either a drastically scaled down version or a completely different / re-engineered experience. My point is that those studios and gamers who want something a bit more high fidelity than that which the Wii can offer will always seek asylum elsewhere.

Popadophalis

If what you say is true, then they'd go to PC, because that blows all the consoles out of the water in terms of "high fidelity" gaming.

And, I think that popadophalis was referring to FFXIV

Now you are jumping to conclusions. Yet, I DO include PC gamers in with the higher fidelity loving crowd / hardcore gamer. Take your pick on terminology. My point is this---for those of us who desire a richer, fuller, more realistic fidelity, there are, and will likely always be, options. This is the quintessential PS3 360 market at the moment.

At the moment you are right but unfortunately that market is unsustainable and won't be around for much longer.

I think it is still VERY early to say that the PS3 and 360 markets are unsustainable. Combined they account for a larger market than the Wii. I do however recognize and commend Nintendo for carving out wallet share in markets the PS3 and 360 can, as yet, not reach.

[QUOTE="EddyPee"][QUOTE="CubeJL"]

[QUOTE="EddyPee"]So what you're saying is that even WITHOUT the Wii, the XBox360 and PS3 would still be selling fairly poorly?CubeJL

Clever. But no. I am saying that the PS3 and 360 will continue to sell in spite of the Wii.

PS2 sold 120 million, didn't it? So that arguably is Sony's core audience. But the Wii is taking that audience away, and thus really is dishing it to Sony.

And you can't say that Sony and MS wouldn't willingly swap places with Nintendo and the Wii.

Notice in my original post that I give full credit to Nintendo as far as sheer scale of business is concerned. What am I proposing is that there is a market, a slice, of customers that the Wii will not appeal to. This is the market that will continue to drive PS3 and 360 sales.

As far as switching places, I doubt it. I think next generation we will likely see MS and/or Sony offer gaming solutions that will try to capture both markets, including the new market Nitendo has uncovered. But that is a discussion for another thread.

Sorry, one more thing before I turn in. Nintendo has not discovered a new market. The instand that someone from this "new market" picks up more than a single game, they are no longer the new market, and are on the road to becoming the traditional market. To toss in one last metaphor. You can't feed birdseed (games) to eggs (casuals). Obviously the moral of this six word story is that Nintendo is trying to turn the casuals into chickens. (Oh no, my metaphor and normal speech are becoming inseperable, I need to go to bed now, or it will just go downhill from here. Nighty-night).

[QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="EddyPee"][QUOTE="CubeJL"]

[QUOTE="EddyPee"]So what you're saying is that even WITHOUT the Wii, the XBox360 and PS3 would still be selling fairly poorly?Tylendal

Clever. But no. I am saying that the PS3 and 360 will continue to sell in spite of the Wii.

PS2 sold 120 million, didn't it? So that arguably is Sony's core audience. But the Wii is taking that audience away, and thus really is dishing it to Sony.

And you can't say that Sony and MS wouldn't willingly swap places with Nintendo and the Wii.

Notice in my original post that I give full credit to Nintendo as far as sheer scale of business is concerned. What am I proposing is that there is a market, a slice, of customers that the Wii will not appeal to. This is the market that will continue to drive PS3 and 360 sales.

As far as switching places, I doubt it. I think next generation we will likely see MS and/or Sony offer gaming solutions that will try to capture both markets, including the new market Nitendo has uncovered. But that is a discussion for another thread.

Sorry, one more thing before I turn in. Nintendo has not discovered a new market. The instand that someone from this "new market" picks up more than a single game, they are no longer the new market, and are on the road to becoming the traditional market. To toss in one last metaphor. You can't feed birdseed (games) to eggs (casuals). Obviously the moral of this six word story is that Nintendo is trying to turn the casuals into chickens. (Oh no, my metaphor and normal speech are becoming inseperable, I need to go to bed now, or it will just go downhill from here. Nighty-night).

Of course that begs the question---which came first? The chicken or the egg?

I have been throwing way to many metaphors lately, so here's one more before I turn in for the night :twisted:

Hardcore gaming is a fire (almost threw "like" in there, which would have turned it into a simile, which is completely different). This fire is burning fiercely, but it only has so much fuel. Eventually that fuel will all burn up, and the fire will die. Nintendo is the pyromaniac out to chop down the casual trees and throw them on the fire. (This is my most gruesome metaphor yet, I really need to go to bed).

Tylendal

:lol: well done. It was entertaining and you avoided the simile pitfall :D

However I would say that Nintendo the pyromaniac is creating a brand new fire as the hardcore of the future will be completely different to what we call hardcore today.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

I'm getting tired of calling 360/PS3 gamers "hardcore."

I'd rather call them "testosterone-addicted."

Popadophalis

Too right. What's just as frustrating is that Hardcore games are now solely defined by HD graphics...

Okay, give a link plz to where someone has refered to a game as being hardcore simply because it is in HD.... I don't think you will, because I don't think you can.

[QUOTE="EddyPee"][QUOTE="CubeJL"]

[QUOTE="EddyPee"]So what you're saying is that even WITHOUT the Wii, the XBox360 and PS3 would still be selling fairly poorly?CubeJL

Clever. But no. I am saying that the PS3 and 360 will continue to sell in spite of the Wii.

PS2 sold 120 million, didn't it? So that arguably is Sony's core audience. But the Wii is taking that audience away, and thus really is dishing it to Sony.

And you can't say that Sony and MS wouldn't willingly swap places with Nintendo and the Wii.

Notice in my original post that I give full credit to Nintendo as far as sheer scale of business is concerned. What am I proposing is that there is a market, a slice, of customers that the Wii will not appeal to. This is the market that will continue to drive PS3 and 360 sales.

As far as switching places, I doubt it. I think next generation we will likely see MS and/or Sony offer gaming solutions that will try to capture both markets, including the new market Nitendo has uncovered. But that is a discussion for another thread.

I'm not saying the Wii and PS3 aren't selling. I'm saying they're not selling as well as they would if the wii didn't exist.

Every console attracts some people who aren't in it's supposed 'core audience'. The Wii is taking away these - and more - of MS and Sony's customers. I suspect by 'customers the Wii will not appeal to' you mean people who consider themselves too hardcore for the Wii. Sony and MS's 'core audiences' are being eaten into by the Wii. Every console will have at least a small slice of the market, even if it's only made up by hardcore lemmings or cows. That does not mean that this is their 'core audience'. If Sony and MS believe themselves to be selling well to their 'core audience' then they've either aimed remarkably low for such big companies or changed their core audiences to avoid embarrassment.

[QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="EddyPee"][QUOTE="CubeJL"]

[QUOTE="EddyPee"]So what you're saying is that even WITHOUT the Wii, the XBox360 and PS3 would still be selling fairly poorly?EddyPee

Clever. But no. I am saying that the PS3 and 360 will continue to sell in spite of the Wii.

PS2 sold 120 million, didn't it? So that arguably is Sony's core audience. But the Wii is taking that audience away, and thus really is dishing it to Sony.

And you can't say that Sony and MS wouldn't willingly swap places with Nintendo and the Wii.

Notice in my original post that I give full credit to Nintendo as far as sheer scale of business is concerned. What am I proposing is that there is a market, a slice, of customers that the Wii will not appeal to. This is the market that will continue to drive PS3 and 360 sales.

As far as switching places, I doubt it. I think next generation we will likely see MS and/or Sony offer gaming solutions that will try to capture both markets, including the new market Nitendo has uncovered. But that is a discussion for another thread.

I'm not saying the Wii and PS3 aren't selling. I'm saying they're not selling as well as they would if the wii didn't exist.

Every console attracts some people who aren't in it's supposed 'core audience'. The Wii is taking away these - and more - of MS and Sony's customers. I suspect by 'customers the Wii will not appeal to' you mean people who consider themselves too hardcore for the Wii. Sony and MS's 'core audiences' are being eaten into by the Wii. Every console will have at least a small slice of the market, even if it's only made up by hardcore lemmings or cows. That does not mean that this is their 'core audience'. If Sony and MS believe themselves to be selling well to their 'core audience' then they've either aimed remarkably low for such big companies or changed their core audiences to avoid embarrassment.

I do however feel like Nintendo has shifted their focus. The install base which stuck with Nintendo for so many years did not make them rich, so instead now they are focused on this new group of consumers (wii sports/play enthusiasts), they are the ones making them rich and they are the ones to be catered to with Wii Resort and Wii Music.

[QUOTE="Popadophalis"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

I'm getting tired of calling 360/PS3 gamers "hardcore."

I'd rather call them "testosterone-addicted."

Veterngamer

Too right. What's just as frustrating is that Hardcore games are now solely defined by HD graphics...

Okay, give a link plz to where someone has refered to a game as being hardcore simply because it is in HD.... I don't think you will, because I don't think you can.

Theres to many variations on what *Hardcore* means! People judge it by what games they play (Hardcore - FPS, TPS, Anything aimed towards adults. Casual - Platformers, Mini Games, anything aimed towards everyone) but then if a gamer plays Super Mario Galaxy for 4 hours and his friends plays say Halo 3 for 2 hours does that make the Mario Galaxy player in comparison to that Halo player a casual or a hardcore gamer!? People judge it by what system they own (PS3, 360, PC - Hardcore. Wii - Casual) but if a Wii owner owns 20+ Wii games in comparison to someone who owns a PS3 with 5 games does that mean the PS3 owner is a casual or a hardcore gamer?!

People can claim theyre hardcore gamers all they like but by definition *Hardcore* actually has no meaning as there are to many variations on what it means! Best way to put is are you a gamer or are you not?! If your here talking about games i will assume your a Gamer.

[QUOTE="EddyPee"][QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="EddyPee"][QUOTE="CubeJL"]

[QUOTE="EddyPee"]So what you're saying is that even WITHOUT the Wii, the XBox360 and PS3 would still be selling fairly poorly?_koolgirl_

Clever. But no. I am saying that the PS3 and 360 will continue to sell in spite of the Wii.

PS2 sold 120 million, didn't it? So that arguably is Sony's core audience. But the Wii is taking that audience away, and thus really is dishing it to Sony.

And you can't say that Sony and MS wouldn't willingly swap places with Nintendo and the Wii.

Notice in my original post that I give full credit to Nintendo as far as sheer scale of business is concerned. What am I proposing is that there is a market, a slice, of customers that the Wii will not appeal to. This is the market that will continue to drive PS3 and 360 sales.

As far as switching places, I doubt it. I think next generation we will likely see MS and/or Sony offer gaming solutions that will try to capture both markets, including the new market Nitendo has uncovered. But that is a discussion for another thread.

I'm not saying the Wii and PS3 aren't selling. I'm saying they're not selling as well as they would if the wii didn't exist.

Every console attracts some people who aren't in it's supposed 'core audience'. The Wii is taking away these - and more - of MS and Sony's customers. I suspect by 'customers the Wii will not appeal to' you mean people who consider themselves too hardcore for the Wii. Sony and MS's 'core audiences' are being eaten into by the Wii. Every console will have at least a small slice of the market, even if it's only made up by hardcore lemmings or cows. That does not mean that this is their 'core audience'. If Sony and MS believe themselves to be selling well to their 'core audience' then they've either aimed remarkably low for such big companies or changed their core audiences to avoid embarrassment.

I do however feel like Nintendo has shifted their focus. The install base which stuck with Nintendo for so many years did not make them rich, so instead now they are focused on this new group of consumers (wii sports/play enthusiasts), they are the ones making them rich and they are the ones to be catered to with Wii Resort and Wii Music.

But Nintendo are not the only developers for the Wii! Nintendo makes a small minority of games for the Wii so just relying on them is insane. This generation Nintendo has the backing of hell of alot of developers in comparison to other generations.

3rd party support is what makes or breaks a system! This argument about Nintendo aiming towards so called casuals is quite flawed as i'm sure last time i checked there was other developers aswell for the Wii but people arrogantly dismiss this(Not saying you are though).

[QUOTE="EddyPee"][QUOTE="CubeJL"][QUOTE="EddyPee"][QUOTE="CubeJL"]

[QUOTE="EddyPee"]So what you're saying is that even WITHOUT the Wii, the XBox360 and PS3 would still be selling fairly poorly?_koolgirl_

Clever. But no. I am saying that the PS3 and 360 will continue to sell in spite of the Wii.

PS2 sold 120 million, didn't it? So that arguably is Sony's core audience. But the Wii is taking that audience away, and thus really is dishing it to Sony.

And you can't say that Sony and MS wouldn't willingly swap places with Nintendo and the Wii.

Notice in my original post that I give full credit to Nintendo as far as sheer scale of business is concerned. What am I proposing is that there is a market, a slice, of customers that the Wii will not appeal to. This is the market that will continue to drive PS3 and 360 sales.

As far as switching places, I doubt it. I think next generation we will likely see MS and/or Sony offer gaming solutions that will try to capture both markets, including the new market Nitendo has uncovered. But that is a discussion for another thread.

I'm not saying the Wii and PS3 aren't selling. I'm saying they're not selling as well as they would if the wii didn't exist.

Every console attracts some people who aren't in it's supposed 'core audience'. The Wii is taking away these - and more - of MS and Sony's customers. I suspect by 'customers the Wii will not appeal to' you mean people who consider themselves too hardcore for the Wii. Sony and MS's 'core audiences' are being eaten into by the Wii. Every console will have at least a small slice of the market, even if it's only made up by hardcore lemmings or cows. That does not mean that this is their 'core audience'. If Sony and MS believe themselves to be selling well to their 'core audience' then they've either aimed remarkably low for such big companies or changed their core audiences to avoid embarrassment.

I do however feel like Nintendo has shifted their focus. The install base which stuck with Nintendo for so many years did not make them rich, so instead now they are focused on this new group of consumers (wii sports/play enthusiasts), they are the ones making them rich and they are the ones to be catered to with Wii Resort and Wii Music.

That`s a pretty big swamp that I really don`t want to get into....people who buy Wiis instead of 360s may decide somewhere down the line to pick up a 360 given the right circumstances, but none of us have crystal balls so this type of data is really hard to come by. But just from a common sense standpoint, I think it stands to reason that a PS3 360 market might always exist provided Nintendo can`t match industry standards in terms of technological output.

of course they would say that.

They are desperate.

[QUOTE="Popadophalis"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

I'm getting tired of calling 360/PS3 gamers "hardcore."

I'd rather call them "testosterone-addicted."

Veterngamer

Too right. What's just as frustrating is that Hardcore games are now solely defined by HD graphics...

Okay, give a link plz to where someone has refered to a game as being hardcore simply because it is in HD.... I don't think you will, because I don't think you can.

Obsession with HD graphics is a symptom, not the disease. The same testosterone-addicted audience that demands "deep" stories (which aren't really all that deep) and high octane action is more likely to demand high-def graphics to go along with everything else.

The PS3/360 have a very healthy portion of the core gaming market, but the truly hardcore would be the ones owning multiple systems - most likely PSWii or Wii60. (man, i hate using these hardcore and core terms.. :( )

Whichever way i look at it, whichever has the biggest userbase (whatever the proportions of core, new and casual audience) will be getting the publicity, support and general public acceptance - much like the PS2. And thus, that will be the actual winner - leading perfectly for greater support in the next console in line.

So what you're saying is that even WITHOUT the Wii, the XBox360 and PS3 would still be selling fairly poorly?EddyPee

[QUOTE="EddyPee"]So what you're saying is that even WITHOUT the Wii, the XBox360 and PS3 would still be selling fairly poorly?blackskull21

360's are cheaper than Wii's in the UK but Wii still outsells it?!

That jargon which you just put is irrelevant really.

I love when 12 year olds proclaim stuff like what you said and forget they are merely children themselves! Irony is your friend im guessing?!

I agree with the TOC.

Nintendo adopted the Blue Ocean strategy and its paying off tremenously. In addition, they have produced sequels to many of their classic franchises, and quite well I might add. (MP3, SMG, SSBB, Mario Kart, Super Paper Mario, Mario Strikers, Mario Strikers), plus the Wario is a SIDE scroller. The VNC is huge too. I think they are resurrecting OLDER Nintendo players just as much as they are getting new console owners.

Now, I wish I could afford a PS3 or 360, but they are just too expensive, especially in this economy. Their high prices doesn't make it any easier for a consumer to get a console. Thats a big factor.

yes, i know the 360 arcade is cheaper in certain places. but also what Nintendo offers is simplicity in purchasing. Having all those sku's kinds of turns me off. "What am i missing getting the arcade compared to the elite? I gotta do research now? How much drivespace would I need?" These are thoughts the consumer doesnt need.

Yeah, 360/PS3 have the old pie. And its tough for both of them because 360 is a fierce competitor for the PS3. Wii has the luxury to appeal to both 'pies'. And Wii success should not interefere with 'hardcore' industry.