Jade Raymond: Splinter Cell "Too Complex"

chaos theory should be the template, there should be no debate. nutcrackr

this, best splinter cell game.

[QUOTE="FireEmblem_Man"]

[QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]

I agree with everything she says.

clone01

She really isn't that good looking tbh....

Ahhh... Jade Raymond <3

I disagree entirely. It's aboute telegraphing to players the boundaries of the mechanics and offering some guidance to players who might have a harder time coming to terms to them; not necessarily bending to the will of people who are dead set on action games, and changing your design and IP ethos to suit that. See Mark of the Ninja for possibly the best example. Reality is everyone knows hide and seek, and everyone knows the basic principle of hiding in the dark, let alone the cover of darkness, and hiding around corners. It comes down to how that's abstracted and telegraphed to the player. Mark of the Ninja is probably the most elegant example of a game that did that. Splinter Cell was very successful in taking the Thief formula, then making it a whole lot more accessible to players, while retaining some actual depth centred around you know -sneaking. Which is why all this genre branching in order to address 'complexity' is a problem, it's missing the point - the game is one about sneaking, opening up more design avenues is going to detract from that one thing your IP Splinter Cell separates itself with against every other third person action game out there. We've seen this happen before and be bungled before, I'm looking at you, Hitman Absolution.skrat_01

Interestingly enough, the gaming scholars (as I like to call them) at Extra Credits covered a topic about Depth vs Complexity. The position they take is that a players reward in their engagement with a game comes not from complexity, but from depth. They even explore a principle that the most efficient design is to achieve the most amount of depth with the least amount of complexity. You could say that equates to the "simple to pick up, difficult to master" philosophy.

But hey, you should all check out the video as they get into a lot of rich detail into the inner workings of this principle.

How did this thread turn into a convo about her looks? Tastes differ and all that, there's nothing to talk about here.LustForSoul

What's wrong with talking about her looks?

[QUOTE="skrat_01"]I disagree entirely. It's aboute telegraphing to players the boundaries of the mechanics and offering some guidance to players who might have a harder time coming to terms to them; not necessarily bending to the will of people who are dead set on action games, and changing your design and IP ethos to suit that. See Mark of the Ninja for possibly the best example. Reality is everyone knows hide and seek, and everyone knows the basic principle of hiding in the dark, let alone the cover of darkness, and hiding around corners. It comes down to how that's abstracted and telegraphed to the player. Mark of the Ninja is probably the most elegant example of a game that did that. Splinter Cell was very successful in taking the Thief formula, then making it a whole lot more accessible to players, while retaining some actual depth centred around you know -sneaking. Which is why all this genre branching in order to address 'complexity' is a problem, it's missing the point - the game is one about sneaking, opening up more design avenues is going to detract from that one thing your IP Splinter Cell separates itself with against every other third person action game out there. We've seen this happen before and be bungled before, I'm looking at you, Hitman Absolution.AdobeArtist

Interestingly enough, the gaming scholars (as I like to call them) at Extra Credits covered a topic about Depth vs Complexity. The position they take is that a players reward in their engagement with a game comes not from complexity, but from depth. They even explore a principle that the most efficient design is to achieve the most amount of depth with the least amount of complexity. You could say that equates to the "simple to pick up, difficult to master" philosophy.

But hey, you should all check out the video as they get into a lot of rich detail into the inner workings of this principle.

good link. this is whats in my head but i don't think i could have put it better than whoever did this. i never thought that complex=fun....then games like tetris wouldnt be fun because its not that complex of a game but i didnt know what it was about games that made it appealing to me....and i guess its depth. good one bro

How did this thread turn into a convo about her looks? Tastes differ and all that, there's nothing to talk about here.LustForSoul

Aren't you in lesbians with Jade Raymond?

FireEmblem_Man

Nope.

Now soratane.... :oops:

 [QUOTE="FireEmblem_Man"]

Aren't you in lesbians with Jade Raymond?

tagyhag

Nope.

Now soratane.... :oops:

She's wearing an N7/ hoodie. That automatically makes her full o win:D

[QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]

I agree with everything she says.

FireEmblem_Man

She really isn't that good looking tbh....

Better looking than yo ugly azz I'm sure.

[QUOTE="AdobeArtist"]

Interestingly enough, the gaming scholars (as I like to call them) at Extra Credits

ChubbyGuy40

Interestingly enough, Extra Credit's writer and speaker have contributed absolutely nothing aside from some CoD map to the gaming community. How can one be a scholar if you've never worked on a damn thing?

Not sure if you're aware, the speaker and writer are two different people. Daniel Floyde is that squeaky voice we hear, but the script comes from James Portnow who is has done extensive work on games and even serves as a consultant to other developers.

But put all that aside, have you actually listened to their videos? From all manner of subjects including Balancing for Skill, Power Creep, DLC practices, Horror themes, Dialog, JRPG vs WRPG, piracy, sexual themes in games, how games cater to female audiences, the used game market... well lots and lots of relevant topics, can you really argue that they aren't insightful in the exploration of the various themes and concepts they explore? They deliver real thought provoking discussion on many relevant gaming topics.

I would say she's cute, but not hot. In fact, I think a lot of gamers overrated herFireEmblem_Man

[QUOTE="FireEmblem_Man"]

[QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]

I agree with everything she says.

Blazed

She really isn't that good looking tbh....

Better looking than yo ugly azz I'm sure.

I'm pretty sure that I am good looking myself and have better grammar than you ;)

[QUOTE="FireEmblem_Man"]I would say she's cute, but not hot. In fact, I think a lot of gamers overrated herMirkoS77

I don't really care if she games, all I care is if she can make me a sammich!

How did this thread turn into a convo about her looks? Tastes differ and all that, there's nothing to talk about here.LustForSoul

Thank you sir!

Well for the average gamer I think she's right. Even some PC gamers can only take games like TF2 and CoD. SW is a very VERY small minority when it comes to skill and what you want from a game. The average gamer probably has never even heard of a new splinter cell coming out.tagyhag

But what's the point in taking out stealth from a franchise that's based around it?

Either make a new action-focused franchise or drop it alltogether.

The base fans aren't buying just because of the name and those who don't know it also won't like it more because of it...

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"][QUOTE="FireEmblem_Man"]I would say she's cute, but not hot. In fact, I think a lot of gamers overrated herFireEmblem_Man

I don't really care if she games, all I care is if she can make me a sammich!

I wonder if Jade Raymond's husband knows how popular his wife is...

F*ck the average gamer............

Interestingly enough, the gaming scholars (as I like to call them) at Extra Credits

AdobeArtist

Interestingly enough, Extra Credit's writer and speaker have contributed absolutely nothing aside from some CoD map to the gaming community. How can one be a scholar if you've never worked on a damn thing?

Shame :( most consolites were ok with 'PRESS X NOW'

Moving up to 'PRESS X TWICE NOW' is just to much of a leap for the average console gamer :(

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"][QUOTE="FireEmblem_Man"]I would say she's cute, but not hot. In fact, I think a lot of gamers overrated herFireEmblem_Man

I don't really care if she games, all I care is if she can make me a sammich!

wimmenz is serious biznezz :P

Not sure if you're aware, the speaker and writer are two different people. Daniel Floyde is that squeaky voice we hear, but the script comes from James Portnow who is has done extensive work on games and even serves as a consultant to other developers.

But put all that aside, have you actually listened to their videos? From all manner of subjects including Balancing for Skill, Power Creep, DLC practices, Horror themes, Dialog, JRPG vs WRPG, piracy, sexual themes in games, how games cater to female audiences, the used game market... well lots and lots of relevant topics, can you really argue that they aren't insightful in the exploration of the various themes and concepts they explore?

AdobeArtist

I'm well aware of who the two are, and what I said is correct.

When your only creditation is CoD and Farmville, what does that say? I stopped watching when I came across their video about amnesia and story structure, where he completely missed the point of crafting your own (back)story in games like New Vegas. He went in with the assumption that the player is a complete idiot who can't decide things for himself. There's a reason he's doing videos for children and not actually pushing the medium forward like he wants to. It's not insightful when you're giving just your view on a subject and not what's really there, then choose to reject any other possible rebuttals to your "arguments."

[QUOTE="AdobeArtist"]

Not sure if you're aware, the speaker and writer are two different people. Daniel Floyde is that squeaky voice we hear, but the script comes from James Portnow who is has done extensive work on games and even serves as a consultant to other developers.

But put all that aside, have you actually listened to their videos? From all manner of subjects including Balancing for Skill, Power Creep, DLC practices, Horror themes, Dialog, JRPG vs WRPG, piracy, sexual themes in games, how games cater to female audiences, the used game market... well lots and lots of relevant topics, can you really argue that they aren't insightful in the exploration of the various themes and concepts they explore?

ChubbyGuy40

I'm well aware of who the two are, and what I said is correct.

When your only creditation is CoD and Farmville, what does that say? I stopped watching when I came across their video about amnesia and story structure, where he completely missed the point of crafting your own (back)story in games like New Vegas. He went in with the assumption that the player is a complete idiot who can't decide things for himself. There's a reason he's doing videos for children and not actually pushing the medium forward like he wants to. It's not insightful when you're giving just your view on a subject and not what's really there, then choose to reject any other possible rebuttals to your "arguments."

I've seen a lot of their videos, maybe not every single one, but I sure as hell never seen them demean their audience in any of them, intentionally or otherwise :|

[QUOTE="Blazed"]

[QUOTE="FireEmblem_Man"]

She really isn't that good looking tbh....

FireEmblem_Man

Better looking than yo ugly azz I'm sure.

I'm pretty sure that I am good looking myself and have better grammar than you ;)

Doubt it.

Shame :( most consolites were ok with 'PRESS X NOW'

Moving up to 'PRESS X TWICE NOW' is just to much of a leap for the average console gamer :(

tenaka2

Splinter Cell was born on the consoles tho.

[QUOTE="LustForSoul"]How did this thread turn into a convo about her looks? Tastes differ and all that, there's nothing to talk about here.StrongBlackVine

What's wrong with talking about her looks?

Do us all a favour and discuss her message, not her attractiveness, pleanty of free porn sites for you fap to in your spare time.

Meanwhile, this is a game board.

I've seen a lot of their videos, maybe not every single one, but I sure as hell never seen them demean their audience in any of them, intentionally or otherwise :|

AdobeArtist

[spoiler]

Going off-topic here now...

It wasn't their fanbase, but rather his philosophy on gamers. From what I've been able to gather, Portnow seems to think the first impression needs to convey everything the game has to offer in the first 20 minutes or less, and that every gamer is new at video games and has no ideas what to expect. Put everything directly in front of the player instead of letting the player take responsibility for their actions. He also wants to put more "romance, tradgedy, and drama and things other than fun" into games. (Not kidding, that's from his DigiPen description.) If you're focusing on things other than fun, than IMO you've lost sight of the entire point of this medium. Anytime someone has a statement similar to that, it never turned out good.

Part of my hate for them is their presentation. Writing up articles and papers would be much more effective than putting together these videos and skipping out on the parts that really need explaining. That way you actually sound like you're exploring or discussing a topic instead of creating videos for a dwindling fanbase. User submitted articles on Gamasutra is a great way (and better in every way) to learn from developers and chat with others who aren't just part of the YouTube/Reddit audience they go for. Jools Watsham is pretty active and he's always reflecting on his work, experiences, and sometimes other areas of the industry in some new article over there. [/spoiler]

Back on topic, it frustrates me that developers want to take reliance on the gamer to actually play the video game away, while trying to create these interactive, visual experiences that need player control, which essentially creates movies. I know producers/directors gotta push out a game to make the company money, but taking a niche game and trying to convert that to something with an "everyone" appeal will always end up ruining something key to the franchise. Yeah they're starting to let us change/disable some of these features that "broaden" the accessibility, but the game was still designed around having those features. It really doesn't do anything except physically keeping the player from using that crutch.

Oh, and she mentioned something about 3D movement interactions being done automatically. I personally hate that. It made AC3 feel incredibly wrong and frustrating instead of smooth, and it plagues other games as well such as RE6 and ORC. Tomb Raider even suffered from it since Lara's stance would change to let you know if there was a battle ahead or not. Any sort of hidden enemy or sudden encounter was ruined because the entity I'm supposed to be playing as is reacting without my input before I'm able to see it. It sends the wrong kind of message and has the player focus on the character instead of the environment and what's happening around it.

Ah the poor mans MGS...

Ah the poor mans MGS...

Douevenlift_bro

After Chaos Theory, yes.

But before that SC >>> MGS in everything. ;) (i.e. gameplay, graphics, plot, stealth, ect.)

edit: except for the cut-scenes and epicness. MGS had the edge there.

[QUOTE="I_can_haz"][QUOTE="AdobeArtist"]

Hyperbole much?? :|

I can accept of someone says they prefer Jades face over Jenny's, that's fair opinion and all. But to say (after a fashion) that she's "ugly"?? I mean what is so "wrong" with Jenny's face? Her eyes? nose? Does she have a faulty cheekbone structure?

Cranler

Ah the poor mans MGS...

Douevenlift_bro

Ah the poor mans MGS...

Douevenlift_bro

[QUOTE="Douevenlift_bro"]

Ah the poor mans MGS...

I_can_haz

[QUOTE="Jankarcop"]

Jenny straight up has a downsyndrome face.   I don't care how good your body is, if your face isn't up to par then the whole damn thing goes crumbling down.

Hyperbole much?? :|

I can accept of someone says they prefer Jades face over Jenny's, that's fair opinion and all. But to say (after a fashion) that she's "ugly"?? I mean what is so "wrong" with Jenny's face? Her eyes? nose? Does she have a faulty cheekbone structure?

She's attractive. Worth clicking on.

That's why people hate it. It's too complex.

She's attractive. Worth clicking on.

That's why people hate it. It's too complex.

Michael0134567

Depends which people.

Fans like it because it's not too easy and offers multiple ways to play...

[QUOTE="Michael0134567"]

She's attractive. Worth clicking on.

That's why people hate it. It's too complex.

nameless12345

Depends which people.

Fans like it because it's not too easy and offers multiple ways to play...

It's too complex, man. They should make it simpler.

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Michael0134567"]

She's attractive. Worth clicking on.

That's why people hate it. It's too complex.

Michael0134567

Depends which people.

Fans like it because it's not too easy and offers multiple ways to play...

It's too complex, man. They should make it simpler.

Sneaking around and using gadgets is too complex? ;)

It's pretty much an action game, just focused on stealth.

If people want a shooter, they can play Gears of War or something else.

[QUOTE="Michael0134567"]

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

 

Depends which people.

Fans like it because it's not too easy and offers multiple ways to play...

nameless12345

It's too complex, man. They should make it simpler.

Sneaking around and using gadgets is too complex? ;)

It's pretty much an action game, just focused on stealth.

If people want a shooter, they can play Gears of War or something else.

It is. 

Oh, and she mentioned something about 3D movement interactions being done automatically. I personally hate that. It made AC3 feel incredibly wrong and frustrating instead of smooth, and it plagues other games as well such as RE6 and ORC. Tomb Raider even suffered from it since Lara's stance would change to let you know if there was a battle ahead or not. Any sort of hidden enemy or sudden encounter was ruined because the entity I'm supposed to be playing as is reacting without my input before I'm able to see it. It sends the wrong kind of message and has the player focus on the character instead of the environment and what's happening around it.

ChubbyGuy40

Good point, this!

Automated inputs and taking control away from the player, even when subtle, can still take away a lot from the immersion.

[QUOTE="Cranler"][QUOTE="I_can_haz"]:cool: I agree with you, there's nothing wrong with Jenny. She's a sexy young lady and she has a cute face.I_can_haz