Just curious about Manticores.

I think were never really a whole lot of Manticores, which makes sense as the mythical beast is supposed to be rare.

Alot of people claim to be Manitcores but there is a big difference between owning all the consoles and being a Manticore. 

I think were never really a whole lot of Manticores, which makes sense as the mythical beast is supposed to be rare.

Alot of people claim to be Manitcores but there is a big difference between owning all the consoles and being a Manticore. 

Boba_Fett_3710

And then who has time to play all theses consoles!?!?!?Bebi_vegeta

Yes. Finally someone who shares my dilemma.

I work full-time and go to school full-time. Whatever free time I get I'm either sleeping or playing games, much less the latter. 

Since consoles are way more epxensive now I expect to be less. If they were $300-$100 like last gen i would already own all consoles by now. loco145

"system wars hippies" like myself do exist...

So then what does Manticore really mean? :?X360PS3AMD05

You are willing to allow yourself to have fun on another system. Just because so and so console is my favorite or my perference, it doesn't mean I will not buy or play on another. 

I would say to be a manticore you have to like all the systems equally without any bias (Therefore manticores don't really exist) .  So for reality sake I guess we could just say your a manticore if you own all the systems.....Yes/No?MikeE21286

Probably, because if you had three consoles, how would you play, you have to make a decision on what to play first.

There are still manticores around. Just a lot of them, like myself, are strongly anti-fanboy. When you are anti-fanboy you get to be called a cow, hermit, sheep and lemming in different threads all the time.

From my expeiriences with myself and my friends.  Last gen no one got a system all that fast.  We all played pc and eventually bought some systems.  This gen we are buying consoles, I am guessing because we now have money and are parents dont controll what we buy.  So that might be one reason, people who played pc are also getting consoles which bring them to this forum.

Pooh I mistaked manticore for hermit.  But it sort works out the same way.  The one group of gamers around my age now can buy what they want resulting in manticorism. 

[QUOTE="MikeE21286"]I would say to be a manticore you have to like all the systems equally without any bias (Therefore manticores don't really exist) . So for reality sake I guess we could just say your a manticore if you own all the systems.....Yes/No?ArisShadows

Probably, because if you had three consoles, how would you play, you have to make a decision on what to play first.

According to the definition we use for Manticores in System Wars, you have to be switzerland - aka Neutral. If you have a bias, you are not a Manticore.

It is not enough to own all the systems. That's like claiming owning an Xbox 360 automatically makes you a Lemming, or owning all 3 systems, a gaming PC, and 400 games makes you hardcore. It takes more than a swipe of the credit card to determine who you are on the inside.

Manticores don't exist, which is why the name is so appropriate.  I have yet to see someone that claims to be a manticore NOT act like a fanboy.  Either that or you have the manticore's who are more spoiled kids than real gamers, and they just buy everything for the sake of consumerism...so how can they be "fans" of all consoles when they aren't real gamers?

Frankly, I have yet to see anyone who would fit the description of a "manticore".   Plenty of people are more than willing to brag and act holier than thou by claiming to be a manticore.  But I have yet to see a real gamer buy all consoles and a PC and enjoy them all equally.

Remember, just because somebody buys everything, it doesn't mean they enjoy them all equally.  And just because somebody claims to own everything, it doesn't necessarily mean they know more about it.

Manticores don't exist, which is why the name is so appropriate. I have yet to see someone that claims to be a manticore NOT act like a fanboy. Either that or you have the manticore's who are more spoiled kids than real gamers, and they just buy everything for the sake of consumerism...so how can they be "fans" of all consoles when they aren't real gamers?

Frankly, I have yet to see anyone who would fit the description of a "manticore". Plenty of people are more than willing to brag and act holier than thou by claiming to be a manticore. But I have yet to see a real gamer buy all consoles and a PC and enjoy them all equally.

Remember, just because somebody buys everything, it doesn't mean they enjoy them all equally. And just because somebody claims to own everything, it doesn't necessarily mean they know more about it.

Rosencrantz

I largely disagree with that based on personal experience and the way I view consoles.  I see them as just another machine in the household that serves a specific purpose.   My toaster browns my bagels and my PS3/360/Wii provides me with entertainment and my washer/dryer cleans and dries my clothes.  I prefer only either "more" or "less" depending on what I'm playing at the moment. 

Is a manticore someone that respects all consoles and PC/MAC?

I do and they all have some great games I want to play, although I think most consoles and the PC/MAC have some downsides, flaws.

I consider myself to be a manticore who give Sony and the PS3 no breaks. They don't deserve any for all the trash talk they have done. I also like enlightening cows to the fact that the PS3 is going to lose a ton of marketshare this gen.LosDaddie

It's not a fact, it's your opinion.  A fact requires a hard evidence and solid proof.  Since the current generation isn't over you can't have factual data of who lost what or gained what, so your position is unprovable therefore making it at best an unproven theory and at worse a baseless guess.

[QUOTE="Rosencrantz"]

Manticores don't exist, which is why the name is so appropriate. I have yet to see someone that claims to be a manticore NOT act like a fanboy. Either that or you have the manticore's who are more spoiled kids than real gamers, and they just buy everything for the sake of consumerism...so how can they be "fans" of all consoles when they aren't real gamers?

Frankly, I have yet to see anyone who would fit the description of a "manticore". Plenty of people are more than willing to brag and act holier than thou by claiming to be a manticore. But I have yet to see a real gamer buy all consoles and a PC and enjoy them all equally.

Remember, just because somebody buys everything, it doesn't mean they enjoy them all equally. And just because somebody claims to own everything, it doesn't necessarily mean they know more about it.

ramey70

I largely disagree with that based on personal experience and the way I view consoles.  I see them as just another machine in the household that serves a specific purpose.   My toaster browns my bagels and my PS3/360/Wii provides me with entertainment and my washer/dryer cleans and dries my clothes.  I prefer only either "more" or "less" depending on what I'm playing at the moment. 

Then perhaps you are the rare exception to the rule.   However, just a couple posts above you is somebody claiming to be a manticore but then turns around and bashes Sony for "trash talking."  What does that have to do with games and gaming or the console?  Sony as a company has no bearing on his gaming experience and therefore shouldn't impact how he feels about the console.  

To use your own analogy, what happens here every day is manticores bashing the toaster for not washing clothes, or bashing the drier because...although it dries quite well they think it should also iron clothes and since theirs doesn't they feel lied to and ripped off. 

ANd lets take it one step further.  Name the last time you ever heard ANYONE complain that they enjoy their appliance less because Maytag was trash talking the competition...or because they were acting a little too arrogant in an interview.  Name one single time.   Hell, name one single time anyone has acted this way about anything other than a Sony purchase. 

So I agree with what you are saying, but again, you are probably more the rare exception than the rule.  The rule is broken because of too many self-righteous people who are full of crap.

And then who has time to play all theses consoles!?!?!?Bebi_vegeta

I do. No good PC in my house though. And I haven't opened my PS3 yet...

Usually I'll have one great game from every system on the go at once.

[QUOTE="LosDaddie"]I consider myself to be a manticore who give Sony and the PS3 no breaks. They don't deserve any for all the trash talk they have done. I also like enlightening cows to the fact that the PS3 is going to lose a ton of marketshare this gen.ramey70

It's not a fact, it's your opinion.  A fact requires a hard evidence and solid proof.  Since the current generation isn't over you can't have factual data of who lost what or gained what, so your position is unprovable therefore making it at best an unproven theory and at worse a baseless guess.

Baseless guess? :lol: Kids these days! :lol:

Proof is everywhere except that cows deny it. Just look at the sales thus far. The PS2 was never outsold the way the PS3 is being outsold right now.

And you can just look back in history and see that every console priced over $300 has failed.

Then perhaps you are the rare exception to the rule.   However, just a couple posts above you is somebody claiming to be a manticore but then turns around and bashes Sony for "trash talking."  What does that have to do with games and gaming or the console?  Sony as a company has no bearing on his gaming experience and therefore shouldn't impact how he feels about the console.  

Rosencrantz

Be a man and address me personally. Don't beat around the bush. ;)

As for Sony's trash talking; Yup, I give the PS3 no breaks because of it even though I bought the console. It's one thing to hype a console, it's another to lie about it's abilities (check E3 05) and trash your competition.

Owning an x360 and following the industry just shows me how much Sony overpromised with the PS3.

[QUOTE="ramey70"]

[QUOTE="LosDaddie"]I consider myself to be a manticore who give Sony and the PS3 no breaks. They don't deserve any for all the trash talk they have done. I also like enlightening cows to the fact that the PS3 is going to lose a ton of marketshare this gen.LosDaddie

It's not a fact, it's your opinion. A fact requires a hard evidence and solid proof. Since the current generation isn't over you can't have factual data of who lost what or gained what, so your position is unprovable therefore making it at best an unproven theory and at worse a baseless guess.

Baseless guess? :lol: Kids these days! :lol:

Proof is everywhere except that cows deny it. Just look at the sales thus far. The PS2 was never outsold the way the PS3 is being outsold right now.

And you can just look back in history and see that every console priced over $300 has failed.

I'm not a kid, I'm 30 years old as of this past February.  Sales thus far have zero bearing on the wether you can claim a hypothesis of the outcome of a future event to be fact.  I can say that it's a "fact" that the Suns will beat the Spurs in their series yet it won't be "fact" until the series is over and a winner is determined.  Until that it's my guess.

In addition, your comments about historical pricing is rather misguided.  To compare prices spanning multiple years, and in this case decades it is imperative you factor inflation.  According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics the NES was an inflation adjusted price of $475 upon it's 1985 release.  I would say it was quite successful.  The Atari 2600 released with an inflation adjusted price of $674.  It too was very successful.  Even Sony's first console, the PS1, released in 1995 with an inflation adjusted price of $402.   So yes, several consoles priced above $300 have been successful.  

Manticores don't exist, which is why the name is so appropriate. I have yet to see someone that claims to be a manticore NOT act like a fanboy. Either that or you have the manticore's who are more spoiled kids than real gamers, and they just buy everything for the sake of consumerism...so how can they be "fans" of all consoles when they aren't real gamers?

Frankly, I have yet to see anyone who would fit the description of a "manticore". Plenty of people are more than willing to brag and act holier than thou by claiming to be a manticore. But I have yet to see a real gamer buy all consoles and a PC and enjoy them all equally.

Remember, just because somebody buys everything, it doesn't mean they enjoy them all equally. And just because somebody claims to own everything, it doesn't necessarily mean they know more about it.

Rosencrantz

All manticores are fanboys? Since when? Ok fine fine I admit it. I am a Megaman Fanboy :P

But you don't have to own all systems to be a manticore. Well in my case at least. I owned Gamecube/Xbox last gen and I own Wii/360 this gen. My brother had the PS2 last gen and I just sold him my PS3 last week. But I still will get to play his PS3 whenever I want. Sure I get pissed off at the stupid things that each company does. Wii and its online plan, 360 and its faulty hardware, PS3 and its lack of a presense in the console race.

Were there a lot of manticores last gen?? Does it seem like there are more manticores this gen???X360PS3AMD05

How can you have a manticore, I'm under the impression they would have to have so much money to burn, and time to burn they just don't exist, becuse if you have time to game, then USUALLY you don't have the money to buy all major nextgen platforms. If you have the money then you don't have the time for all the games that are on Nexgen platforms.

Manticores are truly mythic beasts.

In addition, your comments about historical pricing is rather misguided.  To compare prices spanning multiple years, and in this case decades it is imperative you factor inflation.  According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics the NES was an inflation adjusted price of $475 upon it's 1985 release.  I would say it was quite successful.  The Atari 2600 released with an inflation adjusted price of $674.  It too was very successful.  Even Sony's first console, the PS1, released in 1995 with an inflation adjusted price of $402.   So yes, several consoles priced above $300 have been successful.  

ramey70

:lol:

The ol "adjust for inflation" agrument. :lol:  I bet it makes you feel better when you fill up at $3.20/gallon when you "adjust for inflation", right?

[QUOTE="X360PS3AMD05"]Were there a lot of manticores last gen?? Does it seem like there are more manticores this gen???XYZVector

How can you have a manticore, I'm under the impression they would have to have so much money to burn, and time to burn they just don't exist, becuse if you have time to game, then USUALLY you don't have the money to buy all major nextgen platforms. If you have the money then you don't have the time for all the games that are on Nexgen platforms.

Manticores are truly mythic beasts.

Not really true at all, especially for older gamers.  The price of a Wii/PS3/360 is roughly $1,250 which is about the same price as a good set of golf clubs,  hungting rifle, real road bike, etc. and people find time for those hobbies as well and tend to afford them.

[QUOTE="Rosencrantz"]

Then perhaps you are the rare exception to the rule.   However, just a couple posts above you is somebody claiming to be a manticore but then turns around and bashes Sony for "trash talking."  What does that have to do with games and gaming or the console?  Sony as a company has no bearing on his gaming experience and therefore shouldn't impact how he feels about the console.  

LosDaddie

Be a man and address me personally. Don't beat around the bush. ;)

As for Sony's trash talking; Yup, I give the PS3 no breaks because of it even though I bought the console. It's one thing to hype a console, it's another to lie about it's abilities (check E3 05) and trash your competition.

Owning an x360 and following the industry just shows me how much Sony overpromised with the PS3.

I didn't address you personally because I figured there would be no point.  As my original post points out, too many so-called manticores try to hide their non-gamer fanboyism behind the fact they own all consoles.  It's like a klan member saying he's not racist because he has a black cousin.  You are not defined by what you own but by your behaviour and actions.  Your behavious and actions are pure fanboy regardless of what you own for consoles.

I would also point out that MS has just as long and sordid history of lies.  Why do you feel Sony's lies hurt the PS3 but MS's lies shouldn't hurt the 360 at all?  Funny how MS fanboys never complain about how the 360 didn't come out at $299 with standard HDD or standard wireless.  Funny how they don't care that as MS was telling this at E3 to their faces they had already told devs not to count on the standard HDD.  Funny how when the Xbox came out, MS compared it's games to PS1 games claiming they were so much superior to the competition...yet the PS2 was already out for a whole year.  All companies do this and while you can hate the company all you want, you should check the facts and reality yourself (which you clearly haven't done) and you should judge a console by its merits...not by what SOny or commercials or some PR department told you. 

Of course, I would argue that corporations a liars in general and anybody who takes what they say at face value is not a gamer so much as a consumer. Furthermore, while I have no plans to buy a PS3, I am a big fan of the PS1 and 2...and SOny has never once lied about what their consoles are capable of.  ANyone who says otherwise is a liar and not a real gamer in my opinion. I say not a real gamer becuase they are ingoring their own eyes.   I won't deny Sony is arrogant and often does something totally stupid that makes them look bad.  But why the hell should i care and why should that affect my purchasing choices?   I hate MS as a company for the same reasons you hate Sony so much...but I'm still going to buy a 360.   Why? Becuase I'm not a stockholder and I'm not a brainless consumer zombie.  I do research before buying a console and make a judgement call as to what I want, don't want, need, don't need and of course which games I am most likely to buy in the future of the console.  I don't rush out the second the corporation tells me how awesome they are and buy their product.

[QUOTE="ramey70"]

In addition, your comments about historical pricing is rather misguided. To compare prices spanning multiple years, and in this case decades it is imperative you factor inflation. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics the NES was an inflation adjusted price of $475 upon it's 1985 release. I would say it was quite successful. The Atari 2600 released with an inflation adjusted price of $674. It too was very successful. Even Sony's first console, the PS1, released in 1995 with an inflation adjusted price of $402. So yes, several consoles priced above $300 have been successful.

LosDaddie

:lol:

The ol "adjust for inflation" agrument. :lol: I bet it makes you feel better when you fill up at $3.20/gallon when you "adjust for inflation", right?

Ah yes, the old "adjust for inflation" arguement.  It's a real shame every College & University's Economics department has been teaching this for over 200 years.   And ironically, I have used the inflation arguement when discussing gasoline prices with people.  Inflation is a simple reality and is not some mythical reasoning conjured up by Sony supporters, although I'm sure you think it is.   I always knew that my Econ professor strived to be more like Ken Kutaragi.

[QUOTE="Rosencrantz"]

Manticores don't exist, which is why the name is so appropriate. I have yet to see someone that claims to be a manticore NOT act like a fanboy. Either that or you have the manticore's who are more spoiled kids than real gamers, and they just buy everything for the sake of consumerism...so how can they be "fans" of all consoles when they aren't real gamers?

Frankly, I have yet to see anyone who would fit the description of a "manticore". Plenty of people are more than willing to brag and act holier than thou by claiming to be a manticore. But I have yet to see a real gamer buy all consoles and a PC and enjoy them all equally.

Remember, just because somebody buys everything, it doesn't mean they enjoy them all equally. And just because somebody claims to own everything, it doesn't necessarily mean they know more about it.

Blackbond

All manticores are fanboys? Since when? Ok fine fine I admit it. I am a Megaman Fanboy :P

But you don't have to own all systems to be a manticore. Well in my case at least. I owned Gamecube/Xbox last gen and I own Wii/360 this gen. My brother had the PS2 last gen and I just sold him my PS3 last week. But I still will get to play his PS3 whenever I want. Sure I get pissed off at the stupid things that each company does. Wii and its online plan, 360 and its faulty hardware, PS3 and its lack of a presense in the console race.

 It just has been my experience that manticores, as they define themselves, don't exist and often many of them are the biggest fanboys on this forum.  They just hide behind their supopsedly ownign all consoles because they think it makes them immune to fanboy behaviours.  It doesn't.

And I agree with you.  Many people who don't own every console are more rational and logical and honest than most of the so-called manticores.

[QUOTE="ramey70"]

[QUOTE="LosDaddie"]I consider myself to be a manticore who give Sony and the PS3 no breaks. They don't deserve any for all the trash talk they have done. I also like enlightening cows to the fact that the PS3 is going to lose a ton of marketshare this gen.LosDaddie

It's not a fact, it's your opinion.  A fact requires a hard evidence and solid proof.  Since the current generation isn't over you can't have factual data of who lost what or gained what, so your position is unprovable therefore making it at best an unproven theory and at worse a baseless guess.

Baseless guess? :lol: Kids these days! :lol:

Proof is everywhere except that cows deny it. Just look at the sales thus far. The PS2 was never outsold the way the PS3 is being outsold right now.

And you can just look back in history and see that every console priced over $300 has failed.

Are you saying the 360 has failed?  Or are you going to do the fanboy thing and lay its success at the feet of the $299 model which nobody is buying?

But by all means, please continue to compare the PS brand to unproven brands in the console race offering more expensive consoles which no added features and fewer games. 

[QUOTE="Blackbond"][QUOTE="Rosencrantz"]

Manticores don't exist, which is why the name is so appropriate. I have yet to see someone that claims to be a manticore NOT act like a fanboy. Either that or you have the manticore's who are more spoiled kids than real gamers, and they just buy everything for the sake of consumerism...so how can they be "fans" of all consoles when they aren't real gamers?

Frankly, I have yet to see anyone who would fit the description of a "manticore". Plenty of people are more than willing to brag and act holier than thou by claiming to be a manticore. But I have yet to see a real gamer buy all consoles and a PC and enjoy them all equally.

Remember, just because somebody buys everything, it doesn't mean they enjoy them all equally. And just because somebody claims to own everything, it doesn't necessarily mean they know more about it.

Rosencrantz

All manticores are fanboys? Since when? Ok fine fine I admit it. I am a Megaman Fanboy :P

But you don't have to own all systems to be a manticore. Well in my case at least. I owned Gamecube/Xbox last gen and I own Wii/360 this gen. My brother had the PS2 last gen and I just sold him my PS3 last week. But I still will get to play his PS3 whenever I want. Sure I get pissed off at the stupid things that each company does. Wii and its online plan, 360 and its faulty hardware, PS3 and its lack of a presense in the console race.

It just has been my experience that manticores, as they define themselves, don't exist and often many of them are the biggest fanboys on this forum. They just hide behind their supopsedly ownign all consoles because they think it makes them immune to fanboy behaviours. It doesn't.

And I agree with you. Many people who don't own every console are more rational and logical and honest than most of the so-called manticores.

I'm not making fun of you and in no way am I being sarcastic. But most fanboys who start out with, "Before you call me a fanboy remember I own all consoles." That line right there is BS. Most self proclaimed manticores aren't even manticores at all. They just lie that they are to escape the "Oh shut up fanboy responce." They act like if they own the console they can bash it all they want but these people are just fakers. I know quite a lot of Real Manticores and they are very logical. You should try to get on over to GUFU there are tons of great manticore posters over there. I mean I own all the consoles and I am a manticore. But that doesn't mean I don't have my criticism on each conole/company. Well you get the jist to what I'm saying most likely. 

I would also point out that MS has just as long and sordid history of lies.  Why do you feel Sony's lies hurt the PS3 but MS's lies shouldn't hurt the 360 at all?  Funny how MS fanboys never complain about how the 360 didn't come out at $299 with standard HDD or standard wireless.  Funny how they don't care that as MS was telling this at E3 to their faces they had already told devs not to count on the standard HDD.  Funny how when the Xbox came out, MS compared it's games to PS1 games claiming they were so much superior to the competition...yet the PS2 was already out for a whole year.  All companies do this and while you can hate the company all you want, you should check the facts and reality yourself (which you clearly haven't done) and you should judge a console by its merits...not by what SOny or commercials or some PR department told you. Rosencrantz

And after all the effort, you still haven't realized that I treat MS no better than I treat Sony. I just didn't come out and say it.

And you must have stuck your head in the sand in 2005 if you think X360 fans weren't complaining about the lack of a standardized HDD. I almost got banned at the xbox.com forums for my opinion on the subject. But I guess in your version of reality, x360 fans were quite happy with MS' decision.

Of course, I would argue that corporations a liars in general and anybody who takes what they say at face value is not a gamer so much as a consumer. Furthermore, while I have no plans to buy a PS3, I am a big fan of the PS1 and 2...and SOny has never once lied about what their consoles are capable of.  ANyone who says otherwise is a liar and not a real gamer in my opinion. I say not a real gamer becuase they are ingoring their own eyes.   I won't deny Sony is arrogant and often does something totally stupid that makes them look bad.  But why the hell should i care and why should that affect my purchasing choices?   I hate MS as a company for the same reasons you hate Sony so much...but I'm still going to buy a 360.   Why? Becuase I'm not a stockholder and I'm not a brainless consumer zombie.  I do research before buying a console and make a judgement call as to what I want, don't want, need, don't need and of course which games I am most likely to buy in the future of the console.  I don't rush out the second the corporation tells me how awesome they are and buy their product.

Rosencrantz

Awesome. Much to my surprise, it seems you are capable of thinking on your own. :) 

Personally, I think anyone who doesn't think Sony lied about the PS2's capabilities is not living in reality.

I would like to point out that I did buy an LG Refridgerator because I was so pleased with our LG Washer and Dryer.  So you could make a case that I exhibited some fanboy bahvior during my last appliance purchase. 

 Anyone know of an Appliance Wars forum where I can trash some Whirlpool owners?

Ah yes, the old "adjust for inflation" arguement.  It's a real shame every College & University's Economics department has been teaching this for over 200 years.   And ironically, I have used the inflation arguement when discussing gasoline prices with people.  Inflation is a simple reality and is not some mythical reasoning conjured up by Sony supporters, although I'm sure you think it is.   I always knew that my Econ professor strived to be more like Ken Kutaragi.

ramey70

Yup, and I'm sure people felt better when you enlightened them to the fact that gas prices, "adjusted to inflation", are cheap, right?

Are you saying the 360 has failed?  Or are you going to do the fanboy thing and lay its success at the feet of the $299 model which nobody is buying?

But by all means, please continue to compare the PS brand to unproven brands in the console race offering more expensive consoles which no added features and fewer games. 

Rosencrantz

The price of entry for the x360 is $300. No matter what Kaz tells you at night, that is a fact not a "fanboy thing".

But by all means, please continue to believe the PS3 is in the same position (if not better) than the PS2 was at this point. It's actually quite entertaining.

[QUOTE="ramey70"]

Ah yes, the old "adjust for inflation" arguement. It's a real shame every College & University's Economics department has been teaching this for over 200 years. And ironically, I have used the inflation arguement when discussing gasoline prices with people. Inflation is a simple reality and is not some mythical reasoning conjured up by Sony supporters, although I'm sure you think it is. I always knew that my Econ professor strived to be more like Ken Kutaragi.

LosDaddie

Yup, and I'm sure people felt better when you enlightened them to the fact that gas prices, "adjusted to inflation", are cheap, right?

Depends on how educated they were.  Those of my friends that I went to school with understood perfectly, and many actually changed their opinion.  Those that weren't (or liberal arts majors ;) ) continued to rant about being "gouged" or how "big oil" was out to get them.  This was even after I explain the nature and realities of the commodities market in which crude oil and gasoline futures are traded, and supply/demand line problems inherhent in the oil and gas industry.   Of course this debate is for another forum.   I have no qualms with current gasoline prices and understand full well why they are the way they are and why they are at or lower than they were 20 or 30 years ago.