Killzone's new demo proves PS3 G80 capabilities?!?!?

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LuvGaming

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#1 LuvGaming
Member since 2007 • 1290 Posts

Quote:

The Develop Conference will be taking place between July 24th to the 26th in Brighton, UK. Even though this event will be taking place after E3, we'll get a chance to hear about some of the development techniques behind Killzone for the PS3.

Deferred rendering in Killzone 2
Michal Valient, Guerrilla-Games

Next generation gaming brought high resolutions, very complex environments and large textures to our living rooms. With virtually every asset being inflated, it's hard to use traditional forward rendering and hope for rich, dynamic environments with extensive dynamic lighting. Deferred rendering, on the other hand, has been traditionally described as a nice technique for rendering of scenes with many dynamic lights, that unfortunately suffers from fill-rate problems and lack of anti-aliasing and very few games that use it were published.

In this talk, we will discuss our approach to face this challenge and how we designed a deferred rendering engine that uses multi-sampled anti-aliasing (MSAA). We will give in-depth description of each individual stage of our real-time rendering pipeline and the main ingredients of our lighting, post-processing and data management. We'll show how we utilize PS3's SPUs for fast rendering of a large set of primitives, parallel processing of geometry and computation of indirect lighting. We will also describe our optimizations of the lighting and our parallel split (cascaded) shadow map algorithm for faster and stable MSAA output.

Take Away
The session will provide detailed overview and optimizations of modern rendering engine and parallel processing. Many of the topics are applicable for various gaming platforms.

Ok, why am I re-posting this you may ask.

Answer = I done some digging about deferred rendering as I have never heared of this technuiqe.

Basicly it looks like there hasn't been enough power or the GPU's have been to restricte to do deferred rendering with MSAA up until present.

Here is a quote on this:

Quote: Don't have any screenshots, I abandonned my deferred redenderer a couple of years ago.
But I recall that the artifacts that bothered me most was that sometimes it looked like there was no AA and most of the time the "edges" were enhanced, like a sobel edge detection filter albeit more subtle.
I.e the jaggy edges where enhanced, which defies the purpose of AA!

Looking further down I stumbled on this:

Quote: So if I use only a GeForce 8800, I can program the resolve function, that's it ? Then I can have an antialiased resolve function for the color buffer and no anti-aliasing for the position and normals ... Is it correct ?

Can I do it just now ? what function to call (on XP/OpenGL) ?

Or you mean that I have to render to a 4X buffer (for 4X AA) then code AA myself ?

answer was:

Quote: Custom resolves are supported on G80 and R600 (they are required for D3D10). In D3D10 you can load the different elements in an MSAAed buffer using the "Load" shader function with an extra integer parameter for which color index. Note that *all* of your attribute buffers should technically be multisampled (this is also supported on G80/R600).

Also note that MRT's are a totally separate issue here... even if you render one RT at a time, you will still have a problem with MSAA + deferred shading. MRT's are *just a performance optimization* - always remember that.

I assume the G80 OpenGL extensions expose something similar, but I'd have to check them out.

What you need to do for deferred shading is to load all of the different indices, resolve the lighting function, then average the results for all samples. So for 4x MSAA something like (in HLSL):

So if we go back to the original Killzone 2 devs posts we can speculate that either.

The RSX has some of the Nvidia G80 componants.

or

The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=447959

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Broman6015

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#2 Broman6015
Member since 2007 • 1381 Posts
in other words?....what does this mean? HELP!!!
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Not-A-Stalker

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#3 Not-A-Stalker
Member since 2006 • 5165 Posts
What? :lol:
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asdasd

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#4 asdasd
Member since 2005 • 4464 Posts

in other words?....what does this mean? HELP!!!Broman6015

It means that the PS3s graphics will be really good when they figure all this stuff out. ( I think :P )

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Armored_cell

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#5 Armored_cell
Member since 2007 • 1471 Posts

This should be good :D *starts reading*

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E_x_i_l_e

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#6 E_x_i_l_e
Member since 2007 • 1908 Posts

The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?LuvGaming

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

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H3llstrike

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#7 H3llstrike
Member since 2006 • 1877 Posts
It means JUST WAIT.......for the Potentialstation 3.......
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Educated_Gamer

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#8 Educated_Gamer
Member since 2007 • 1095 Posts
Thats not uncommon you relize
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Socrates88

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#9 Socrates88
Member since 2007 • 1655 Posts
Nice. This mean they are actually showing the power of the Cell or it could be a dumbed down version of deferred rendering. There is no way RSX has G80 components.
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asdasd

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#10 asdasd
Member since 2005 • 4464 Posts

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?E_x_i_l_e

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Trust me, both the 360 and PS3 will have their share of "Crysis" graphics by the end of this gen. The first 2 years dont really show anything about a consoles power. Looks a God of War 2 compared to the early PS2 games. They looked distinctly different.

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E_x_i_l_e

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#11 E_x_i_l_e
Member since 2007 • 1908 Posts
[QUOTE="E_x_i_l_e"]

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?asdasd

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Trust me, both the 360 and PS3 will have their share of "Crysis" graphics by the end of this gen. The first 2 years dont really show anything about a consoles power. Looks a God of War 2 compared to the early PS2 games. They looked distinctly different.

I wasn't really being serious, I know all that. It's just funny how some cough hermits cough say that PS3/360 will never reach Crysis graphics..

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GermanShepard06

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#12 GermanShepard06
Member since 2006 • 3285 Posts
PS3 will be doing things beyond dx10 graphics, the ps3 has programmable shaders and a cpu that can render high resolution graphics better than today's gpu's.
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Redfingers

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#13 Redfingers
Member since 2005 • 4510 Posts
[QUOTE="E_x_i_l_e"]

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?asdasd

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Trust me, both the 360 and PS3 will have their share of "Crysis" graphics by the end of this gen. The first 2 years dont really show anything about a consoles power. Looks a God of War 2 compared to the early PS2 games. They looked distinctly different.

Crysis is head and shoulders above Gears of War. Head and shoulders. There is no comparison. I do not expect, ever, for there to be a "Crysis" game on PS3 and 360.

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Stonin

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#14 Stonin
Member since 2006 • 3021 Posts

PS3 will be doing things beyond dx10 graphics, the ps3 has programmable shaders and a cpu that can render high resolution graphics better than today's gpu's.GermanShepard06

Hahahaha. That was a good one ;).

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Amigwo

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#15 Amigwo
Member since 2005 • 201 Posts

PS3 will be doing things beyond dx10 graphics, the ps3 has programmable shaders and a cpu that can render high resolution graphics better than today's CPU'S.GermanShepard06

see what i did there?

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e20Dylan

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#16 e20Dylan
Member since 2007 • 1055 Posts
nothin but great things to come
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Metroid_Time

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#17 Metroid_Time
Member since 2006 • 2225 Posts

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?E_x_i_l_e

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Can the cell emulate more RAM?

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Redfingers

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#18 Redfingers
Member since 2005 • 4510 Posts
[QUOTE="E_x_i_l_e"]

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?Metroid_Time

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Can the cell emulate more RAM?

The Cell can have access to the same amount of Ram that the Xbox 360 does, if that's good. It's also higher bandwidth and lower latency, if that counts. Also, the Playstation 3 has a standard hard drive and a Blu Ray drive that Naughty Dog is using for "maximum efficient use of memory" and streaming all kinds of data so that there are 0 loading screens in the entire game.

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Amigwo

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#19 Amigwo
Member since 2005 • 201 Posts
[QUOTE="E_x_i_l_e"]

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?Metroid_Time

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Can the cell emulate more RAM?

Console gaming requirement is different then PC gaming requirement.

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KAS3Y_JAM3Z

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#21 KAS3Y_JAM3Z
Member since 2006 • 1699 Posts
[QUOTE="Metroid_Time"][QUOTE="E_x_i_l_e"]

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?Amigwo

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Can the cell emulate more RAM?

Console gaming requirement is different then PC gaming requirement.

.... :lol:

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Metroid_Time

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#22 Metroid_Time
Member since 2006 • 2225 Posts
[QUOTE="Metroid_Time"][QUOTE="E_x_i_l_e"]

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?Redfingers

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Can the cell emulate more RAM?

The Cell can have access to the same amount of Ram that the Xbox 360 does, if that's good. It's also higher bandwidth and lower latency, if that counts. Also, the Playstation 3 has a standard hard drive and a Blu Ray drive that Naughty Dog is using for "maximum efficient use of memory" and streaming all kinds of data so that there are 0 loading screens in the entire game.

Fancy way of saying no. Guess it'll stay PC exclusive then.

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_en1gma_

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#23 _en1gma_
Member since 2004 • 14617 Posts
[QUOTE="asdasd"][QUOTE="E_x_i_l_e"]

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?Redfingers

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Trust me, both the 360 and PS3 will have their share of "Crysis" graphics by the end of this gen. The first 2 years dont really show anything about a consoles power. Looks a God of War 2 compared to the early PS2 games. They looked distinctly different.

Crysis is head and shoulders above Gears of War. Head and shoulders. There is no comparison. I do not expect, ever, for there to be a "Crysis" game on PS3 and 360.

My wallet has a huge hole now because of that.

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Amigwo

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#24 Amigwo
Member since 2005 • 201 Posts
[QUOTE="Amigwo"][QUOTE="Metroid_Time"][QUOTE="E_x_i_l_e"]

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?KAS3Y_JAM3Z

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Can the cell emulate more RAM?

Console gaming requirement is different then PC gaming requirement.

.... :lol:

what? confused?

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_en1gma_

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#25 _en1gma_
Member since 2004 • 14617 Posts
[QUOTE="Amigwo"][QUOTE="Metroid_Time"][QUOTE="E_x_i_l_e"]

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?KAS3Y_JAM3Z

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Can the cell emulate more RAM?

Console gaming requirement is different then PC gaming requirement.

.... :lol:

that is actually true in some ways. just not at all in this case

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Peter_Darkstar

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#26 Peter_Darkstar
Member since 2003 • 1091 Posts
LOL this thread is full of funny people. The cell rendering better than a G80 card? Priceless.
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KAS3Y_JAM3Z

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#27 KAS3Y_JAM3Z
Member since 2006 • 1699 Posts
[QUOTE="KAS3Y_JAM3Z"][QUOTE="Amigwo"][QUOTE="Metroid_Time"][QUOTE="E_x_i_l_e"]

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?_en1gma_

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Can the cell emulate more RAM?

Console gaming requirement is different then PC gaming requirement.

.... :lol:

that is actually true in some ways. just not at all in this case

hahaha there is a lot of things im laughing at in that statement.

I realize it's true in some cases. but i found it funny, and i still do. hahaha

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Solid-CELL

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#28 Solid-CELL
Member since 2006 • 5910 Posts
i think i missed the part when everyone in System Wars magically became game programmers...
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omarguy01

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#30 omarguy01
Member since 2004 • 8139 Posts
gimme a video. i'll be the judge of that.
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_en1gma_

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#31 _en1gma_
Member since 2004 • 14617 Posts

i think i missed the part when everyone in System Wars magically became game programmers...Solid-CELL

The Cell can turn people into game programmers.

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No_worrys_mate

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#32 No_worrys_mate
Member since 2007 • 489 Posts
[QUOTE="Metroid_Time"][QUOTE="E_x_i_l_e"]

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?Amigwo

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Can the cell emulate more RAM?

Console gaming requirement is different then PC gaming requirement.

I think hermits will hurt their head if they think to hard about this, He probaly say ohhh but oblivion, Well i say it was poorly developed for consoles and from what i understand is that the problem with the loading times for the 360 was due to them developing the game with a single core in mind and as far as i know the 360 has a triple core cpu to stop it from being weak for this gen and turn it to be sutiable option for Ms and save some money but still keep the power for ther cpu, The graphics were fine and with the 360 not having a unit with a hard drivewould ofalso hurt load times, The game looks fine and im happy to play games in 720p as long as it looks clean and crisp which it does, If Oblivion was developed with the 360 or Ps3 in mind then it would run smooth as butter and look even better, I only see gameslooking better and it probaly wont reach Crysis level graphics but i always look at art direction so and i say Mass Effect own Crysis graphicaly.

This is next gen after all and who knows what they can do, I mean in the future, graphics cards could be a peice of plastic and you pay $600 to upgrade to the next card with a firm ware update.

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Solid-CELL

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#33 Solid-CELL
Member since 2006 • 5910 Posts

[QUOTE="Solid-CELL"]i think i missed the part when everyone in System Wars magically became game programmers..._en1gma_

The Cell can turn people into game programmers.

and also into non-sense spewing fanboys :|

Speak of the Devil!

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redneckdouglas

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#34 redneckdouglas
Member since 2005 • 2977 Posts
A lot of wannabe computer-gurus today.
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lordxymor

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#37 lordxymor
Member since 2004 • 2438 Posts
[QUOTE="E_x_i_l_e"]

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?Metroid_Time

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Can the cell emulate more RAM?

It could use the hdd as a swap space for virtual paginated memory. I can't say if that would be useful in console games.

A lot of wannabe computer-gurus today.redneckdouglas

I'm no Guru, but I do have a degree in computer science and I'm trying to get my masters in software engineering.

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ironcreed

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#38 ironcreed
Member since 2005 • 14195 Posts
Well, all of that sure does sound impressive, and I do indeed believe that the PS3 is truly going to amaze us with what it will ultimately be capable of. But honestly, I just wish that they would just show us the f*cking game already, and let their work speak for itself, instead of lying in hiding while trying to impress us here and there with nothing but techno babble.
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munu9

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#39 munu9
Member since 2004 • 11109 Posts

Nice. This mean they are actually showing the power of the Cell or it could be a dumbed down version of deferred rendering. There is no way RSX has G80 components.Socrates88

If you actually look at the cost of the ps3 broken down, the RSX is actually the most expensive component. Which I found to be really ****ed up so this might be the reason why. Otherwise, nvidia is seriously ripping off sony on this one...

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Eddie-Vedder

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#40 Eddie-Vedder
Member since 2003 • 7810 Posts
Sounds impressive, I wish I understood EXACTLY what this meant, but it does sound impressive. I have no doubt the ps3 will amaze us most, out of all the current gen consoles.
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Teuf_

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#41 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts
Interesting...ASFAIK, DX9-era GPU's aren't able to read back the individual samples of a multisampled buffer in the pixel shaders (which you would need to do for MSAA in a deferred renderer. Normally you just resolve the buffer before applying it as a texture.) Although its impossible to know whether that's an actual feature of the RSX without seeing their presentation. Its possible they're using some sort of trick I've never heard of.
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Pariah_001

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#42 Pariah_001
Member since 2003 • 4850 Posts

I always laugh people at people who say, "Crysis is not possible on the PS3!!"

It's actually been known for awhile now that the cell is theoretically capable of emulating DX10.

I imagine however, that to play Crysis, one would need a specific download off PSN to make it work.

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jsnepo

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#43 jsnepo
Member since 2003 • 1593 Posts

[QUOTE="Socrates88"]Nice. This mean they are actually showing the power of the Cell or it could be a dumbed down version of deferred rendering. There is no way RSX has G80 components.munu9

If you actually look at the cost of the ps3 broken down, the RSX is actually the most expensive component. Which I found to be really ****ed up so this might be the reason why. Otherwise, nvidia is seriously ripping off sony on this one...

I thought the most expensive component is the bluray drive.

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Gzus666

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#44 Gzus666
Member since 2007 • 2304 Posts
[QUOTE="Redfingers"][QUOTE="Metroid_Time"][QUOTE="E_x_i_l_e"]

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?Metroid_Time

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Can the cell emulate more RAM?

The Cell can have access to the same amount of Ram that the Xbox 360 does, if that's good. It's also higher bandwidth and lower latency, if that counts. Also, the Playstation 3 has a standard hard drive and a Blu Ray drive that Naughty Dog is using for "maximum efficient use of memory" and streaming all kinds of data so that there are 0 loading screens in the entire game.

Fancy way of saying no. Guess it'll stay PC exclusive then.

interesting since Crysis has been said to easily be able to run on a 7 series card with 256mb of vram. my 8800GTS 320 will plow right through it, and only has 320mb of ram. ram only makes a difference on computer games when you start boosting the resolution to ridiculous ranges, not really much of an issue since i run COH full blast on 1680/1050. apparently your not real up on computers since very few have over 256mb of ram, and run fantastic looking games just fine.

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deactivated-61ff675e61178

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#45 deactivated-61ff675e61178
Member since 2004 • 12558 Posts
[QUOTE="munu9"]

[QUOTE="Socrates88"]Nice. This mean they are actually showing the power of the Cell or it could be a dumbed down version of deferred rendering. There is no way RSX has G80 components.jsnepo

If you actually look at the cost of the ps3 broken down, the RSX is actually the most expensive component. Which I found to be really ****ed up so this might be the reason why. Otherwise, nvidia is seriously ripping off sony on this one...

I thought the most expensive component is the bluray drive.

That's a common myth. The Blu-Ray diodes themselves cost about $125 at launch. The reason the ps3 is so expensive is a combination of the BR drive, the Cell, the RSX, the EE+GS, and the cost of cramming everything, even the power brick, into such a confined space and still keeping things cool. The whole "Blu-Ray made the ps3 cost $200 more" argument is false, especially since Sony was losing $300 on every ps3 sold when it first launched. A $125 Blu-Ray diode didn't add that much to thecost of the machine.SureBlu-Rayhelped raise the price of the ps3, but wasn't the sole culprit behind the matter.
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Redfingers

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#46 Redfingers
Member since 2005 • 4510 Posts

I always laugh people at people who say, "Crysis is not possible on the PS3!!"

It's actually been known for awhile now that the cell is theoretically capable of emulating DX10.

I imagine however, that to play Crysis, one would need a specific download off PSN to make it work.

Pariah_001

The API that the Playstation 3 uses is called OpenGL. It can probably emulate the DX10 feature set without a problem and without a firmware update. It's all in the software itself.

However, the Playstation 3 GPU is not nearly equivalent to the 8800, which is what is required to play Crysis with all the bells and whistles. The RAM falls short of the "Crysis" PC and the Cell just might not be enough.

I could be wrong, of course, but I still think I will side with the Crysis developers themselves, who said that the next-gen consoles just cannot handle Crysis.

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Zero-G_basic

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#47 Zero-G_basic
Member since 2002 • 1879 Posts

[QUOTE="Socrates88"]Nice. This mean they are actually showing the power of the Cell or it could be a dumbed down version of deferred rendering. There is no way RSX has G80 components.munu9

If you actually look at the cost of the ps3 broken down, the RSX is actually the most expensive component. Which I found to be really ****ed up so this might be the reason why. Otherwise, nvidia is seriously ripping off sony on this one...

They ripped off Microsoft too. I'm sure they will hustle sony as well.
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michael098

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#49 michael098
Member since 2006 • 3441 Posts

[QUOTE="LuvGaming"]The Cell is able to emulate DX10 functions (or something completly new) for this type of thing to work?E_x_i_l_e

If the Cell can emulate DX10, then Crysis, here we come. :P

Lol you think the only reason 360 and ps3 cant run crysis is because it doesnt have the right api? Im sorry but no...

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Neal_Gore

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#50 Neal_Gore
Member since 2007 • 416 Posts
This is great news!!!!:roll: