Laptops and Macs are holding back pc gaming more than consoles

The reason some of us have lower end computers is because there is no need to upgrade....

If they started making lots of games that took a high end PC to play at higher settings then you would see more people with higher end computers.

I am still using my computer from 2007 with no need to upgrade because it can hand just about every game at max settings 1680x1050 resolution.

And where do you think that data comes from? I benchtested Age of connan on 3xGTX 280 while it ran butter smooth all settings high on a 50MB connection, it chugged like crazy on a 10MB connection with the same settings. ducati101

Yes i agree Old republic is going to be GPU friendly to reach a wider audience, the same as SIMS 3 is. What i dont agree is MMO's cannot have the same graphical fidelity as other games. Age of Connan for example doesnt come close to a lot of PC games.

ducati101

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"][QUOTE="dc337"] There are enough people buying those laptops that play games to have an effect on the pc gaming market. Star Wars The Old Republic is being held back in terms of graphics so it can be played by a wider audience. It has become very risky to make a pc exclusive that only works on high end computers.

dc337

Star Wars:

Conan

What I see is different art sty1e Not a scale down. Also, ever think to consider that even if they scale it down is because they anticipate a larger base?

TC failed to look into the details. Thus fails at trying to prove anything.

Windows Version

Windows XP 32 bit(-1.40%)37.59%

Windows 7 64 bit(+1.49%) 25.78%

Windows Vista 32 bit(-0.53%) 16.02%

Windows 7(+0.29%) 11.69%

Windows Vista 64 bit(+0.13%) 7.66%

Windows XP 64 bit(+0.07%) 0.66%

Windows 2003 64 bit(-0.01%) 0.42%

Other(+0.05%) 0.17%

59% have Vista 32 bit or greater.

System RAM

Less than 512 MB(-0.04%) 0.64%

512 Mb to 999 MB(-0.33%) 3.66%

1 GB(-0.74%) 10.38%

2 GB(-0.67%)28.30%

3 GB(+0.24%) 28.27%

4 GB(+0.85%) 18.80%

5 GB and higher(+0.69%) 9.95%

57% of people have 3GB of ram or higher.

Primary Display Resolution

1024 x 768(-0.47%) 12.08%

1152 x 864(-0.08%) 2.16%

1280 x 720(+0.01%) 0.75%

1280 x 768(+0.02%) 0.81%

1280 x 800(-0.48%) 6.02%

1280 x 960(+0.04%) 1.58%

1280 x 1024(-0.36%)18.80%

1360 x 768(+0.07%) 1.22%

1366 x 768(+0.27%) 4.85%

1440 x 900(-0.05%) 10.47%

1600 x 900(+0.24%) 2.62%

1600 x 1200(-0.04%) 0.96%

1680 x 1050(+0.03%) 18.02%

1920 x 1080(+0.92%) 10.58%

1920 x 1200(-0.03%) 5.76%

Other(-0.09%) 3.32%

33% of people have 1680 x 1050 or higher.

Video Card

ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series(-0.13%)8.30%

NVIDIA GeForce 8800(-0.41%) 7.43%

NVIDIA GeForce 9800(+0.06%) 6.29%

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260(+0.10%) 3.94%

ATI Radeon HD 5700 Series(+0.52%) 2.43%

ATI Radeon HD 5800 Series(+0.41%) 2.34%

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 275(+0.01%) 1.22%

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 285(+0.04%) 1.17%

There is also Other(this probably counts 470/480 owners too, since they are not on the list)

(+0.09%) 23.12%(I did not count this into the 33% of people)

33% of people have a Nvidia 8800/ATI 4800 or better.

Sorry TC. You fail.

My Mac Pro runs circles around most of your setups. And it runs Windows. My Macbook Pro with i7 and 8gb of RAM also runs circles around most of your setups. That, too, also runs Windows.DonPerian

Macs :lol:

What's the point of the CPU and the RAM if the GPU sucks?

[QUOTE="DonPerian"]My Mac Pro runs circles around most of your setups. And it runs Windows. My Macbook Pro with i7 and 8gb of RAM also runs circles around most of your setups. That, too, also runs Windows.Shadow2k6

Macs :lol:

What's the point of the CPU and the RAM if the GPU sucks?

Laptops and Macs are holding pc gaming back? nope. The simple fact is people dont want to play on their PCs they are happy with consoles. It is as simple as that. Things change, alot of people will say "PC gaming will always be the best" just because people are like that. I would be as bold to say with the next gen systems I would not be supprised if we were to see some sort of steam account for consoles. This would deffaintly be a step towards ending PC's hold on the DD it has now.

Laptops and Macs are holding pc gaming back? nope. The simple fact is people dont want to play on their PCs they are happy with consoles. It is as simple as that. Things change, alot of people will say "PC gaming will always be the best" just because people are like that. I would be as bold to say with the next gen systems I would not be supprised if we were to see some sort of steam account for consoles. This would deffaintly be a step towards ending PC's hold on the DD it has now.

o0squishy0o

Consoles would never offer anything even close to resembling Steam. Why? Due solely to the fact that they are entirely closed, and unless the manufacturer's (i.e. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo) get a *very* large portion of the profits, they are likely not to allow it (lest they offer a similar interface themselves, which wouldn't change much apart from the consoles being DD).

It's not about who has a hold of DD, PC and consoles seem to market to different audiences, so relinquishing one's hold on it, wouldn't necessarily garner further interest in similar options on consoles.

[QUOTE="o0squishy0o"]

Laptops and Macs are holding pc gaming back? nope. The simple fact is people dont want to play on their PCs they are happy with consoles. It is as simple as that. Things change, alot of people will say "PC gaming will always be the best" just because people are like that. I would be as bold to say with the next gen systems I would not be supprised if we were to see some sort of steam account for consoles. This would deffaintly be a step towards ending PC's hold on the DD it has now.

lundy86_4

Consoles would never offer anything even close to resembling Steam. Why? Due solely to the fact that they are entirely closed, and unless the manufacturer's (i.e. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo) get a *very* large portion of the profits, they are likely not to allow it (lest they offer a similar interface themselves, which wouldn't change much apart from the consoles being DD).

It's not about who has a hold of DD, PC and consoles seem to market to different audiences, so relinquishing one's hold on it, wouldn't necessarily garner further interest in similar options on consoles.

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="o0squishy0o"]

Laptops and Macs are holding pc gaming back? nope. The simple fact is people dont want to play on their PCs they are happy with consoles. It is as simple as that. Things change, alot of people will say "PC gaming will always be the best" just because people are like that. I would be as bold to say with the next gen systems I would not be supprised if we were to see some sort of steam account for consoles. This would deffaintly be a step towards ending PC's hold on the DD it has now.

o0squishy0o

Consoles would never offer anything even close to resembling Steam. Why? Due solely to the fact that they are entirely closed, and unless the manufacturer's (i.e. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo) get a *very* large portion of the profits, they are likely not to allow it (lest they offer a similar interface themselves, which wouldn't change much apart from the consoles being DD).

It's not about who has a hold of DD, PC and consoles seem to market to different audiences, so relinquishing one's hold on it, wouldn't necessarily garner further interest in similar options on consoles.

Valve is a pretty large company, and make a lot of money of Steam. It doesn't seem viable that the console companies would allow them to take a large portion from console sales. They would have to charge a pretty hefty amount in order to entertain the idea.

I agree that it would be great for Valve however, that company is great and does a lot for "gamers" in agreement with dev/pubs, and brings a lot of deals to the table. I wonder how that would play up with Sony/MS/Nintendo, considering they're gonna want a cut of that pie as well.

I especially like MS' move to Games on Demand. If they flesh out that service next gen, it'll be a great hit. This gen it offers some solid titles, but it still leaves much to be desired. As well as space eventually becoming an issue with proprietary drives.

My Mac Pro runs circles around most of your setups. And it runs Windows. My Macbook Pro with i7 and 8gb of RAM also runs circles around most of your setups. That, too, also runs Windows.DonPerian

[QUOTE="DonPerian"]My Mac Pro runs circles around most of your setups. And it runs Windows. My Macbook Pro with i7 and 8gb of RAM also runs circles around most of your setups. That, too, also runs Windows.Shadow2k6

Macs :lol:

What's the point of the CPU and the RAM if the GPU sucks?

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]The same reason why WoW camed out in 2004 looking like 2001 game? And that era was the height of pc graphical progress and yet it still looked outdated.dc337

The rise of laptops didn't change anything graphicaly for pcgames, unlike rise of Xbox and it's little brother

Ok then explain how Age of Conan can have high res textures and high polygon count characters.

dc337

Not to mention it did fail pretty big time, so I'm not sure you want to follow it's path, especially since the biggest problem for hardware hungry MMOs isn't laptop users hardware, but lack of strenght of desktops in Asian markets

Would the upcoming Star Wars MMO look like a game from 2004 if every laptop had at least an 8800?

dc337

My Mac Pro runs circles around most of your setups. And it runs Windows. My Macbook Pro with i7 and 8gb of RAM also runs circles around most of your setups. That, too, also runs Windows.

DonPerian

Refer to http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-GeForce-GT-330M.22437.0.html

MacBook Pro's Geforce GT330 (48 CUDA processors)is just higher clock version GT240. It's ranked slightly lower than or on par with ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4650 GDDR3. With Wintel/Mactel gaming, GPU should be the focus.In general multi-platform games, they both should blow away Xbox 360.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="Darth_DuMas"]

Maybe this will help :P.

This aside i'd disagree, since developers, don't seem to support mobile GPUs much as it usually says on steam game specs.

[QUOTE="Hexagon_777"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"] If a laptop has ExpressCard slot and ExpressCard compliant BIOS, it can already do the following setup. I used PE4H-EC2C ExpressCard_to_PCI-Express slot adapter. Refer to http://forum.notebookreview.com/gaming-software-graphics-cards/418851-diy-vidock-experiences.htmlronvalencia

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]Would these devices allow me to use current graphics cards on my laptop? :oHexagon_777

What type of dv6000? HP Pavilion dv6000t is an Intel Core 2 Duo based.

There's a list of laptops from

http://forum.notebookreview.com/gaming-software-graphics-cards/418851-diy-vidock-experiences.html

http://www.villagetronic.com/vidock/compatibility.html

MSI GUS, ViDock 2, DIY ViDock uses laptop's ExpressCard slot.

My laptop doesn't need pre-boot patches/hacks i.e. no PCI-Script.

I think Consoles are holding the PC back the most.

Although when comparing a console game to a PC game the PC version is almost always better.

Mods also help improve visuals and test the system more.

Heck Dragon Age on the PC blows away the console version.

And that is without any mods. With the mods it looks fantastic.

59% have Vista 32 bit or greater. DragonfireXZ95

Outside of Steam XP is still the most common OS.

http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-monthly-200904-201005

As I stated before the majority of pc games are being divided into two categories:

1. PC exclusives that work with DX9 igpus

2. Multiplats that are targeted at consoles.

Type #2 at least makes better use of pc hardware. MS could help the situation by releasing at least subset of DX10 for XP users but they would of course prefer XP users to upgrade to Windows 7.

Steam for Mac will actually make the situation worse by making the igpu market even more appealing to developers.

This topic is absurd. Whatever meaningless statistics you throw out, it's not the clear issues at hand, both of which I already stated.

PC's bad wrap of piracy deters publishers while console's hefty sales figures assures their primary attention. It doesn't get much more obvious.

This topic is absurd. Whatever meaningless statistics you throw out, it's not the clear issues at hand, both of which I already stated.

PC's bad wrap of piracy deters publishers while console's hefty sales figures assures their primary attention. It doesn't get much more obvious.

Mystic-G

[QUOTE="Mystic-G"]

This topic is absurd. Whatever meaningless statistics you throw out, it's not the clear issues at hand, both of which I already stated.

PC's bad wrap of piracy deters publishers while console's hefty sales figures assures their primary attention. It doesn't get much more obvious.

dc337

What if the rigs have these 1280 x 1024 monitors? Or what if the rigs still use pentiums? Who's fault would it be then?Zero_epyon

honestly that's not really something new to computer gaming, in fact i'd say the negative affect of older hardware is actually far less nowadays than it used to be

some points to consider:

• laptop buyers mostly never upgraded their desktops
• computer parts are far more cheaper, making pc gaming more accessible
• gpu's/cpu's are far more capable than they have ever been and generally last longer in their ability to continue maxing out new games

realistically, no there's not really a problem, the so-called "casual hardware threat" was far greater 10 years ago than it is today, when even pc manufacturers and packing laptops with i7 cpu's, something my gaming pc doesn't even have

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] What if the rigs have these 1280 x 1024 monitors? Or what if the rigs still use pentiums? Who's fault would it be then?dc337

realistically, no there's not really a problem, the so-called "casual hardware threat" was far greater 10 years ago than it is today, when even pc manufacturers and packing laptops with i7 cpu's, something my gaming pc doesn't even have

88mphSlayer

[QUOTE="88mphSlayer"]realistically, no there's not really a problem, the so-called "casual hardware threat" was far greater 10 years ago than it is today, when even pc manufacturers and packing laptops with i7 cpu's, something my gaming pc doesn't even have

dc337

except that the biggest hits back then were 2d games like Starcraft and Diablo 2 and 3d still survived

ie: when Warcraft 3 and WoW came out, most people i know who played 'em didn't have a gaming pc or a desktop that they had upgraded

and the fact that more pc's are capable of producing good 3d graphics can only be a good thing for those with capable gaming rigs

PC games are still being made, are they not? Games like The Old Republic, WoW and Diablo 3 are being held back in graphics so they can reach a wider audience. Whether or not this is good or bad is subjective. However this is a trend that will only get worse as laptop and Mac gamers grow at a faster rate than pc gamers with rigs.

Mystic-G

Refer to http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.aspx?i=3711

"That of course doesn't tell the full story, and in speaking with ATI we were informed that 70% of sales have been 4300/4500 parts - the lowest performing, least expensive offerings. 15% of sales are from the 4600 series, which is where reasonable gaming can finally enter the picture. As for the 4800 series, it's still sitting at less than 5% (with the remainder of ATI's sales apparently coming from older 3000 series parts). As far as high-end laptop graphics is concerned, NVIDIA has had a clear lead for a while, for a couple of reasons."

http://www.techspot.com/news/35607-amd-intel-gain-gpu-market-share-in-q2-2009.html

Raw numbers for Q1 2009 (74.8M) and Q2 2009(98.3M). Let's do some estimates. AMD has 18.4 percent of PC GPU sales i.e. 31.8504 million for Q1 and Q2. If we apply 15 percent for Radeon HD 4600 series we get 4.77 million for Q1 and Q2 2009. We can estimated that Radeon HD 4600 series annual sales to be around 10 million i.e. Q4 sales are ussually higher. In 3 years, ATI Radeon HD 4600 (RV730) series alone can reach about 30 million i.e. uptake is faster than PS3.

ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4600 series was renamed as ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5165. In another words, RV730 is not end of life (EOL). ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4600 series is now part of Radeon HD 51x0 value segment. ATI Radeon HD 5600 (400 SP, 16 ROPs) series has replaced ATI Radeon HD 4600 series.

Like ATI Radeon HD 2900/3800 series, ATI Radeon HD 4600 series includes the same 320 SPs count and RV730 an entry level "Fat" GpGPU.

Other numbers to consider, Refer to http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases/Pages/amd-takes-market-share-2009aug18.aspx

By the end of Q2 2009,AMD overall takes 53% mobile discrete market share. My estimates for RV730 2009 sales would be higher. We're not even factoring NVIDIA's counterpart to ATI Radeon HD 4600 (RV730) series. NVIDIA's side can cover PS3 while ATI RV730 side can easily cover Xbox 360. In the future, please keep things in proportion.

10 percent of minority in PC world kills Xbo x360/PS3 in yearly unit sales.

The annual PC unit sales is around 300 million. http://www.etforecasts.com/products/ES_pcww1203.htm

except that the biggest hits back then were 2d games like Starcraft and Diablo 2

ie: when Warcraft 3 and WoW came out, most people i know who played 'em didn't have a gaming pc or a desktop that they had upgraded

88mphSlayer

and the fact that more pc's are capable of producing good 3d graphics can only be a good thing for those with capable gaming rigs 88mphSlayer

I don't think those companies would ditch the pc if all those igpu gamers didn't exist. MMOs would still make money, just not as much. They would build them for higher spec'd machines and wouldn't have to bother making sure they worked on older hardware.

[QUOTE="88mphSlayer"]except that the biggest hits back then were 2d games like Starcraft and Diablo 2

ie: when Warcraft 3 and WoW came out, most people i know who played 'em didn't have a gaming pc or a desktop that they had upgraded

dc337

and the fact that more pc's are capable of producing good 3d graphics can only be a good thing for those with capable gaming rigs 88mphSlayer

I don't think those companies would ditch the pc if all those igpu gamers didn't exist. MMOs would still make money, just not as much. They would build them for higher spec'd machines and wouldn't have to bother making sure they worked on older hardware.

except that games like WoW that don't push graphics but do push marketshare have been around in PC gaming since it first took shape

i'm not entirely sure why that's a detriment, especially when it used to be that new video cards barely provided any noticeable gains, and how especially during the late 90's when 3d on PC took off with Quake 1, Half Life, Quake 3 Arena, UT1999, etc. - at that time it was a very expensive hobby when tons of different video cards were coming out constantly and 3dfx and nvidia and ati essentially divied up the 3d market that was already segregated from the rest of the market, and even then not everybody got great performance vs. nowadays when anybody can spend $140 and max out every game in their library

if anything, have all pc's with capable graphics cards + the still having high end graphics cards come out every year, is the far better solution

that and demanding that every content-rich MMO have beastly graphics itself opens a can of worms regarding funding and profitability of the graphics-focused market

Raw numbers for Q1 2009 (74.8M) and Q2 2009(98.3M). Let's do some estimates. AMD has 18.4 percent of PC GPU sales i.e. 31.8504 million for Q1 and Q2. If we apply 15 percent for Radeon HD 4600 series we get 4.77 million for Q1 and Q2 2009. We can estimated that Radeon HD 4600 series annual sales to be around 10 million i.e. Q4 sales are ussually higher. In 3 years, ATI Radeon HD 4600 (RV730) series alone can reach about 30 million i.e. uptake is faster than PS3.ronvalencia

That 15 percent you are using comes from mobile sales, not overall GPU sales.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]Raw numbers for Q1 2009 (74.8M) and Q2 2009(98.3M). Let's do some estimates. AMD has 18.4 percent of PC GPU sales i.e. 31.8504 million for Q1 and Q2. If we apply 15 percent for Radeon HD 4600 series we get 4.77 million for Q1 and Q2 2009. We can estimated that Radeon HD 4600 series annual sales to be around 10 million i.e. Q4 sales are ussually higher. In 3 years, ATI Radeon HD 4600 (RV730) series alone can reach about 30 million i.e. uptake is faster than PS3.dc337

That 15 percent you are using comes from mobile sales, not overall GPU sales.

[QUOTE="LordRork"]

You're making a big reach with "doomed". It's more likely that developers will soften the blow with a few toys and enhancements for those of us out on the bleeding edge while ensuring that their games still work on XP. dc337

But even that is likely to end in 2-3 years as XP reaches the end of its shelf life.

I don't see laptops or macs being the issue - neither are used on a large scale (at least when compared to the desktop PC) for gaming, and those computers are already more powerful than the consoles in many respects.

LordRork

Have you seen the previews for Star Wars: The Old Republic? They're clearly toning down the graphics for laptop users. Force Unleashed on the 360 has better graphics which shows how much pc gaming has changed this gen.

People aren't going to take their gaming rig to the cafe.

If any 'computer' hurts PC gaming it'd be the fact that we have $450 pre-built computers with a Quad-core cpu, 4GBs+ of ram, 500GB+ HDD, with useless accessories meanwhile it's only using integrated graphics. Seriously, what does a person need all that for if they can't do anything with it?

Imagine how much more popular PC gaming would be if a person could just go buy a pre-built PC for that price or higher off the shelf and be able to take it home and at least play on medium settings. All this blame Apple crap is nothing more than trying to use them as a scapegoat for consoles. As I said before, PC's reputation for piracy and console sales are the two biggest factors today in terms of development priority. If you find it so hard to believe that then go dig a hole and stick your head in it.

Have look at the April Steam hardware survey.

Interesting points:

The most common OS is Windows XP 32 bit with nearly 40% share. Remember that DirectX10 and 11 require Vista or 7.

The most common RAM amount is 2 gigabytes.

The most common display resolution is 1280x1024.

What this amounts to is that pc game developers cannot build DX10 games without ignoring a large chunk of the market. Nvidia is currently pushing a DX11 card which is a joke when most pc games don't even require DX10.

I believe this problem will only be made worse by the trend towards laptops and Macs. The low-end gpu demographic is growing while the high-end is losing influence.

High-end pc gaming is pretty much doomed. It's just too much of a risk for developers to target the latest pc tech when there are safer demographics like consoles and average pcs.

The only thing that can save high-end pc gaming at this point is for hardware companies to invest in game development, even if at a short term loss. Nvidia and AMD seem to think that developers will be jumping over to DX11 but based on current trends they will be tied to DX9 for years to come.

dc337

Aston Martin, Porsche or Lamborghini aren't "doomed" due most of people own a Skoda, Fiat or Chevvy. In fact, they are some of the most successful car makers in terms of profits and revenues.

If you have a PC gaming rig, you can play games; if you have a high-end PC gaming rig, you can play THE SAME games with a lot more quality.

[QUOTE="dc337"]

Have look at the April Steam hardware survey.

Interesting points:

The most common OS is Windows XP 32 bit with nearly 40% share. Remember that DirectX10 and 11 require Vista or 7.

The most common RAM amount is 2 gigabytes.

The most common display resolution is 1280x1024.

What this amounts to is that pc game developers cannot build DX10 games without ignoring a large chunk of the market. Nvidia is currently pushing a DX11 card which is a joke when most pc games don't even require DX10.

I believe this problem will only be made worse by the trend towards laptops and Macs. The low-end gpu demographic is growing while the high-end is losing influence.

High-end pc gaming is pretty much doomed. It's just too much of a risk for developers to target the latest pc tech when there are safer demographics like consoles and average pcs.

The only thing that can save high-end pc gaming at this point is for hardware companies to invest in game development, even if at a short term loss. Nvidia and AMD seem to think that developers will be jumping over to DX11 but based on current trends they will be tied to DX9 for years to come.

Ondoval

Aston Martin, Porsche or Lamborghini aren't "doomed" due most of people own a Skoda, Fiat or Chevvy. In fact, they are some of the most successful car makers in terms of profits and revenues.

If you have a PC gaming rig, you can play games; if you have a high-end PC gaming rig, you can play THE SAME games with a lot more quality.