Laptops and Macs are holding back pc gaming more than consoles

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Hakkai007

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#101 Hakkai007
Member since 2005 • 4905 Posts

The reason some of us have lower end computers is because there is no need to upgrade....

If they started making lots of games that took a high end PC to play at higher settings then you would see more people with higher end computers.

I am still using my computer from 2007 with no need to upgrade because it can hand just about every game at max settings 1680x1050 resolution.

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dc337

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#102 dc337
Member since 2008 • 2603 Posts

And where do you think that data comes from? I benchtested Age of connan on 3xGTX 280 while it ran butter smooth all settings high on a 50MB connection, it chugged like crazy on a 10MB connection with the same settings. ducati101
The server doesn't have to provide all the data, textures and models can exist locally. Age of Conan sounds like a poorly optimized game but it does show that an MMO doesn't have to look like WoW.
Yes i agree Old republic is going to be GPU friendly to reach a wider audience, the same as SIMS 3 is. What i dont agree is MMO's cannot have the same graphical fidelity as other games. Age of Connan for example doesnt come close to a lot of PC games.

ducati101

I wouldn't expect Old Republic to look like Crysis but they are toning it down to the point where it looks like a game from last gen. That's a shame when this is a Bioware game and not just another MMO. They clearly care more about getting the WoW addict playing on a laptop than the guy with the gaming rig who bought their previous titles.

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Zero_epyon

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#103 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20511 Posts

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"][QUOTE="dc337"] There are enough people buying those laptops that play games to have an effect on the pc gaming market. Star Wars The Old Republic is being held back in terms of graphics so it can be played by a wider audience. It has become very risky to make a pc exclusive that only works on high end computers.

dc337

No it's being held back because it's an MMO. What other open world MMO do you know of with graphics like Crysis or even Stalker? They're always a step behind.

Would it kill you to read the last few pages of a thread before commenting? I already stated AGE OF CONAN as an example of an MMO that doesn't have low-end graphics.

Star Wars:

Conan

What I see is different art sty1e Not a scale down. Also, ever think to consider that even if they scale it down is because they anticipate a larger base?

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DonPerian

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#105 DonPerian
Member since 2005 • 3773 Posts
My Mac Pro runs circles around most of your setups. And it runs Windows. My Macbook Pro with i7 and 8gb of RAM also runs circles around most of your setups. That, too, also runs Windows.
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osan0

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#106 osan0
Member since 2004 • 18288 Posts
im deeply conflicted on this issue. on the one hand im a bit frustrated with the lack of technical progression. any progression now is working around console limitations instead of pushing forward. to all intents and purposes the industry has stalled technically. although im not the type of guy that despises the wii for not being HD (i love the wii..okami overall is my fav looking game this gen on any platform)....i also do like to see real technical progress...especially progress thats not just for eye candies sake. i really like long draw distances..im a sucker for them :P. on the other hand though...as a PC gamer....i wonder if it really would be so bad if the target hardware was lowered. bear with me...a PC gamer whos not obsessed with tech..weird i know :P. but many of the PCs cherished games...its master pieces and defining moments either dont need a GPU or just have it as an optional extra. it was never the cutting edge tech that made the PC great and if loosing the technical edge meant that we could return to the interplay days then i would be very happy....i think. where creativity takes precedence over technical excellence. theres an old saying in some PC circles..."the GPU is the worst thing to happen to PC gaming". i dont know though...as i say im deeply conflicted on the issue.
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DragonfireXZ95

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#107 DragonfireXZ95
Member since 2005 • 26718 Posts

TC failed to look into the details. Thus fails at trying to prove anything.

Windows Version

Windows XP 32 bit(-1.40%)37.59%

Windows 7 64 bit(+1.49%) 25.78%

Windows Vista 32 bit(-0.53%) 16.02%

Windows 7(+0.29%) 11.69%

Windows Vista 64 bit(+0.13%) 7.66%

Windows XP 64 bit(+0.07%) 0.66%

Windows 2003 64 bit(-0.01%) 0.42%

Other(+0.05%) 0.17%

59% have Vista 32 bit or greater.

System RAM

Less than 512 MB(-0.04%) 0.64%

512 Mb to 999 MB(-0.33%) 3.66%

1 GB(-0.74%) 10.38%

2 GB(-0.67%)28.30%

3 GB(+0.24%) 28.27%

4 GB(+0.85%) 18.80%

5 GB and higher(+0.69%) 9.95%

57% of people have 3GB of ram or higher.

Primary Display Resolution

1024 x 768(-0.47%) 12.08%

1152 x 864(-0.08%) 2.16%

1280 x 720(+0.01%) 0.75%

1280 x 768(+0.02%) 0.81%

1280 x 800(-0.48%) 6.02%

1280 x 960(+0.04%) 1.58%

1280 x 1024(-0.36%)18.80%

1360 x 768(+0.07%) 1.22%

1366 x 768(+0.27%) 4.85%

1440 x 900(-0.05%) 10.47%

1600 x 900(+0.24%) 2.62%

1600 x 1200(-0.04%) 0.96%

1680 x 1050(+0.03%) 18.02%

1920 x 1080(+0.92%) 10.58%

1920 x 1200(-0.03%) 5.76%

Other(-0.09%) 3.32%

33% of people have 1680 x 1050 or higher.

Video Card

ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series(-0.13%)8.30%

NVIDIA GeForce 8800(-0.41%) 7.43%

NVIDIA GeForce 9800(+0.06%) 6.29%

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260(+0.10%) 3.94%

ATI Radeon HD 5700 Series(+0.52%) 2.43%

ATI Radeon HD 5800 Series(+0.41%) 2.34%

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 275(+0.01%) 1.22%

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 285(+0.04%) 1.17%

There is also Other(this probably counts 470/480 owners too, since they are not on the list)

(+0.09%) 23.12%(I did not count this into the 33% of people)

33% of people have a Nvidia 8800/ATI 4800 or better.

Sorry TC. You fail.

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Shadow2k6

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#108 Shadow2k6
Member since 2005 • 2283 Posts

My Mac Pro runs circles around most of your setups. And it runs Windows. My Macbook Pro with i7 and 8gb of RAM also runs circles around most of your setups. That, too, also runs Windows.DonPerian

Macs :lol:

What's the point of the CPU and the RAM if the GPU sucks?

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DragonfireXZ95

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#109 DragonfireXZ95
Member since 2005 • 26718 Posts

[QUOTE="DonPerian"]My Mac Pro runs circles around most of your setups. And it runs Windows. My Macbook Pro with i7 and 8gb of RAM also runs circles around most of your setups. That, too, also runs Windows.Shadow2k6

Macs :lol:

What's the point of the CPU and the RAM if the GPU sucks?

Well, it's not like they can run any big games anyway, game selection is rather limited so a heavy GPU wouldn't matter. ;)
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o0squishy0o

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#110 o0squishy0o
Member since 2007 • 2802 Posts

Laptops and Macs are holding pc gaming back? nope. The simple fact is people dont want to play on their PCs they are happy with consoles. It is as simple as that. Things change, alot of people will say "PC gaming will always be the best" just because people are like that. I would be as bold to say with the next gen systems I would not be supprised if we were to see some sort of steam account for consoles. This would deffaintly be a step towards ending PC's hold on the DD it has now.

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lundy86_4

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#111 lundy86_4
Member since 2003 • 62080 Posts

Laptops and Macs are holding pc gaming back? nope. The simple fact is people dont want to play on their PCs they are happy with consoles. It is as simple as that. Things change, alot of people will say "PC gaming will always be the best" just because people are like that. I would be as bold to say with the next gen systems I would not be supprised if we were to see some sort of steam account for consoles. This would deffaintly be a step towards ending PC's hold on the DD it has now.

o0squishy0o

Consoles would never offer anything even close to resembling Steam. Why? Due solely to the fact that they are entirely closed, and unless the manufacturer's (i.e. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo) get a *very* large portion of the profits, they are likely not to allow it (lest they offer a similar interface themselves, which wouldn't change much apart from the consoles being DD).

It's not about who has a hold of DD, PC and consoles seem to market to different audiences, so relinquishing one's hold on it, wouldn't necessarily garner further interest in similar options on consoles.

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o0squishy0o

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#112 o0squishy0o
Member since 2007 • 2802 Posts

[QUOTE="o0squishy0o"]

Laptops and Macs are holding pc gaming back? nope. The simple fact is people dont want to play on their PCs they are happy with consoles. It is as simple as that. Things change, alot of people will say "PC gaming will always be the best" just because people are like that. I would be as bold to say with the next gen systems I would not be supprised if we were to see some sort of steam account for consoles. This would deffaintly be a step towards ending PC's hold on the DD it has now.

lundy86_4

Consoles would never offer anything even close to resembling Steam. Why? Due solely to the fact that they are entirely closed, and unless the manufacturer's (i.e. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo) get a *very* large portion of the profits, they are likely not to allow it (lest they offer a similar interface themselves, which wouldn't change much apart from the consoles being DD).

It's not about who has a hold of DD, PC and consoles seem to market to different audiences, so relinquishing one's hold on it, wouldn't necessarily garner further interest in similar options on consoles.

You say that but I think they will have something very similiar and why not get steam on board. I am sure they would ask for more "profit" but the long term return for valve would be greater. Well I think it would open the console gaming libary up massivly if they did. I mean if they could have something like xbox live arcade except a bit more catered towards the more advanced games it could be a real hit.
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lundy86_4

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#113 lundy86_4
Member since 2003 • 62080 Posts

[QUOTE="lundy86_4"]

[QUOTE="o0squishy0o"]

Laptops and Macs are holding pc gaming back? nope. The simple fact is people dont want to play on their PCs they are happy with consoles. It is as simple as that. Things change, alot of people will say "PC gaming will always be the best" just because people are like that. I would be as bold to say with the next gen systems I would not be supprised if we were to see some sort of steam account for consoles. This would deffaintly be a step towards ending PC's hold on the DD it has now.

o0squishy0o

Consoles would never offer anything even close to resembling Steam. Why? Due solely to the fact that they are entirely closed, and unless the manufacturer's (i.e. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo) get a *very* large portion of the profits, they are likely not to allow it (lest they offer a similar interface themselves, which wouldn't change much apart from the consoles being DD).

It's not about who has a hold of DD, PC and consoles seem to market to different audiences, so relinquishing one's hold on it, wouldn't necessarily garner further interest in similar options on consoles.

You say that but I think they will have something very similiar and why not get steam on board. I am sure they would ask for more "profit" but the long term return for valve would be greater. Well I think it would open the console gaming libary up massivly if they did. I mean if they could have something like xbox live arcade except a bit more catered towards the more advanced games it could be a real hit.

Valve is a pretty large company, and make a lot of money of Steam. It doesn't seem viable that the console companies would allow them to take a large portion from console sales. They would have to charge a pretty hefty amount in order to entertain the idea.

I agree that it would be great for Valve however, that company is great and does a lot for "gamers" in agreement with dev/pubs, and brings a lot of deals to the table. I wonder how that would play up with Sony/MS/Nintendo, considering they're gonna want a cut of that pie as well.

I especially like MS' move to Games on Demand. If they flesh out that service next gen, it'll be a great hit. This gen it offers some solid titles, but it still leaves much to be desired. As well as space eventually becoming an issue with proprietary drives.

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Hexagon_777

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#114 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts

My Mac Pro runs circles around most of your setups. And it runs Windows. My Macbook Pro with i7 and 8gb of RAM also runs circles around most of your setups. That, too, also runs Windows.DonPerian
And how much extra did you pay since it's a Mac? :shock:

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Zero_epyon

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#115 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20511 Posts

[QUOTE="DonPerian"]My Mac Pro runs circles around most of your setups. And it runs Windows. My Macbook Pro with i7 and 8gb of RAM also runs circles around most of your setups. That, too, also runs Windows.Shadow2k6

Macs :lol:

What's the point of the CPU and the RAM if the GPU sucks?

You can put a 4890 in the mac pro.
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AdrianWerner

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#116 AdrianWerner
Member since 2003 • 28441 Posts

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]The same reason why WoW camed out in 2004 looking like 2001 game? And that era was the height of pc graphical progress and yet it still looked outdated.dc337



Are you kidding me? You're saying The Old Republic looks that way because of technology lag? That doesn't make sense when Force Unleashed came out in 2008 and looks much better.

No, I'm telling you big MMORPGs always were behind times in graphics. Heck...most super popular PC games always have been and it has nothing to do with Macs or Laptops, most desktops are also behind times. Plus there are budgetary concerns you seem to ignore completely. If all PCs would at least have 8800 maybe Old Republic would look better, but not by much. This art styIe is simple and allows you to create massive ammounts of content cheaply. It might be shocking to you, but the more detailed the art assets are the more time and resources it takes to create them.

The rise of laptops didn't change anything graphicaly for pcgames, unlike rise of Xbox and it's little brother

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AdrianWerner

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#117 AdrianWerner
Member since 2003 • 28441 Posts

Ok then explain how Age of Conan can have high res textures and high polygon count characters.

dc337

Petite gameworld and very little variety of characters. Plus different art style.

Not to mention it did fail pretty big time, so I'm not sure you want to follow it's path, especially since the biggest problem for hardware hungry MMOs isn't laptop users hardware, but lack of strenght of desktops in Asian markets

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AdrianWerner

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#118 AdrianWerner
Member since 2003 • 28441 Posts

Would the upcoming Star Wars MMO look like a game from 2004 if every laptop had at least an 8800?

dc337

most likely yes. Maybe a bit better, but not in any significant way

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ronvalencia

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#119 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

My Mac Pro runs circles around most of your setups. And it runs Windows. My Macbook Pro with i7 and 8gb of RAM also runs circles around most of your setups. That, too, also runs Windows.

DonPerian

Refer to http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-GeForce-GT-330M.22437.0.html

MacBook Pro's Geforce GT330 (48 CUDA processors)is just higher clock version GT240. It's ranked slightly lower than or on par with ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4650 GDDR3. With Wintel/Mactel gaming, GPU should be the focus.In general multi-platform games, they both should blow away Xbox 360.

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ronvalencia

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#120 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts
[QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="Darth_DuMas"]

Maybe this will help :P.

This aside i'd disagree, since developers, don't seem to support mobile GPUs much as it usually says on steam game specs.

If a laptop has ExpressCard slot and ExpressCard compliant BIOS, it can already do the following setup. I used PE4H-EC2C ExpressCard_to_PCI-Express slot adapter. Refer to http://forum.notebookreview.com/gaming-software-graphics-cards/418851-diy-vidock-experiences.html

Would these devices allow me to use current graphics cards on my laptop? :o

Well, I don't know your laptop make and model.
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Hexagon_777

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#121 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts

[QUOTE="Hexagon_777"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"] If a laptop has ExpressCard slot and ExpressCard compliant BIOS, it can already do the following setup. I used PE4H-EC2C ExpressCard_to_PCI-Express slot adapter. Refer to http://forum.notebookreview.com/gaming-software-graphics-cards/418851-diy-vidock-experiences.htmlronvalencia
Would these devices allow me to use current graphics cards on my laptop? :o

Well, I don't know your laptop make and model.

HP Pavilion dv6000.

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ronvalencia

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#122 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]Would these devices allow me to use current graphics cards on my laptop? :oHexagon_777

Well, I don't know your laptop make and model.

HP Pavilion dv6000.

What type of dv6000? HP Pavilion dv6000t is an Intel Core 2 Duo based.

There's a list of laptops from

http://forum.notebookreview.com/gaming-software-graphics-cards/418851-diy-vidock-experiences.html

http://www.villagetronic.com/vidock/compatibility.html

MSI GUS, ViDock 2, DIY ViDock uses laptop's ExpressCard slot.

My laptop doesn't need pre-boot patches/hacks i.e. no PCI-Script.

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Hakkai007

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#123 Hakkai007
Member since 2005 • 4905 Posts

I think Consoles are holding the PC back the most.

Although when comparing a console game to a PC game the PC version is almost always better.

Mods also help improve visuals and test the system more.

Heck Dragon Age on the PC blows away the console version.

And that is without any mods. With the mods it looks fantastic.

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dc337

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#124 dc337
Member since 2008 • 2603 Posts

59% have Vista 32 bit or greater. DragonfireXZ95
And 41% are running XP which is a huge chunk of steam users. Remember also that Steam users do not represent the norm.

Outside of Steam XP is still the most common OS.

http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-monthly-200904-201005

As I stated before the majority of pc games are being divided into two categories:

1. PC exclusives that work with DX9 igpus

2. Multiplats that are targeted at consoles.

Type #2 at least makes better use of pc hardware. MS could help the situation by releasing at least subset of DX10 for XP users but they would of course prefer XP users to upgrade to Windows 7.

Steam for Mac will actually make the situation worse by making the igpu market even more appealing to developers.

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Mystic-G

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#125 Mystic-G
Member since 2006 • 6462 Posts

This topic is absurd. Whatever meaningless statistics you throw out, it's not the clear issues at hand, both of which I already stated.

PC's bad wrap of piracy deters publishers while console's hefty sales figures assures their primary attention. It doesn't get much more obvious.

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dc337

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#126 dc337
Member since 2008 • 2603 Posts

This topic is absurd. Whatever meaningless statistics you throw out, it's not the clear issues at hand, both of which I already stated.

PC's bad wrap of piracy deters publishers while console's hefty sales figures assures their primary attention. It doesn't get much more obvious.

Mystic-G

PC games are still being made, are they not? Games like The Old Republic, WoW and Diablo 3 are being held back in graphics so they can reach a wider audience. Whether or not this is good or bad is subjective. However this is a trend that will only get worse as laptop and Mac gamers grow at a faster rate than pc gamers with rigs.

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Zero_epyon

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#127 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20511 Posts

[QUOTE="Mystic-G"]

This topic is absurd. Whatever meaningless statistics you throw out, it's not the clear issues at hand, both of which I already stated.

PC's bad wrap of piracy deters publishers while console's hefty sales figures assures their primary attention. It doesn't get much more obvious.

dc337

PC games are still being made, are they not? Games like The Old Republic, WoW and Diablo 3 are being held back in graphics so they can reach a wider audience. Whether or not this is good or bad is subjective. However this is a trend that will only get worse as laptop and Mac gamers grow at a faster rate than pc gamers with rigs.

What if the rigs have these 1280 x 1024 monitors? Or what if the rigs still use pentiums? Who's fault would it be then?
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dc337

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#128 dc337
Member since 2008 • 2603 Posts

What if the rigs have these 1280 x 1024 monitors? Or what if the rigs still use pentiums? Who's fault would it be then?Zero_epyon
Well by rigs I am referring to desktops that have decent hardware. Older desktops are also a problem but they tend to have better video cards than laptops and more importantly can be upgraded. Most people these days buy a laptop or Macbook and hold onto it as long as possible. This trend is pushing pc exclusive developers to build around basic igpu cards instead of high end rigs.

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88mphSlayer

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#129 88mphSlayer
Member since 2010 • 3201 Posts

honestly that's not really something new to computer gaming, in fact i'd say the negative affect of older hardware is actually far less nowadays than it used to be

some points to consider:

  • laptop buyers mostly never upgraded their desktops
  • computer parts are far more cheaper, making pc gaming more accessible
  • gpu's/cpu's are far more capable than they have ever been and generally last longer in their ability to continue maxing out new games

realistically, no there's not really a problem, the so-called "casual hardware threat" was far greater 10 years ago than it is today, when even pc manufacturers and packing laptops with i7 cpu's, something my gaming pc doesn't even have

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Zero_epyon

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#130 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20511 Posts

[QUOTE="Zero_epyon"] What if the rigs have these 1280 x 1024 monitors? Or what if the rigs still use pentiums? Who's fault would it be then?dc337

Well by rigs I am referring to desktops that have decent hardware. Older desktops are also a problem but they tend to have better video cards than laptops and more importantly can be upgraded. Most people these days buy a laptop or Macbook and hold onto it as long as possible. This trend is pushing pc exclusive developers to build around basic igpu cards instead of high end rigs.

Ok but what's decent hardware? And don't you know that decent hardware today will be crap compared to hardware that comes out next week? This is the nature of PC gaming, whether you have a 4 SLI 12 GB i7 rig or an 8800 GTX and a core 2 duo. It creates a very wide base and not everyone has the money or know how to keep up. Nor do they need to in most cases. This is why a lot of people pick console gaming over PC gaming.
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dc337

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#131 dc337
Member since 2008 • 2603 Posts

realistically, no there's not really a problem, the so-called "casual hardware threat" was far greater 10 years ago than it is today, when even pc manufacturers and packing laptops with i7 cpu's, something my gaming pc doesn't even have

88mphSlayer

No it is a greater threat because 10 years ago 3D games weren't even playable on laptops. The split was between 2D casual games and high end 3D games.

Because of Vista/7 and HD video requirements laptops today at least come with a basic 3D card. This has caused a market convergence since those laptops can play basic 3D games. Much like the Wii it's a case of "good enough tech" outselling the high end. People with high end rigs are expected to play games like WoW when 10 years ago they had a lot more games being designed exclusively for them.

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88mphSlayer

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#132 88mphSlayer
Member since 2010 • 3201 Posts

[QUOTE="88mphSlayer"]realistically, no there's not really a problem, the so-called "casual hardware threat" was far greater 10 years ago than it is today, when even pc manufacturers and packing laptops with i7 cpu's, something my gaming pc doesn't even have

dc337

No it is a greater threat because 10 years ago 3D games weren't even playable on laptops. The split was between 2D casual games and high end 3D games.

Because of Vista/7 and HD video requirements laptops today at least come with a basic 3D card. This has caused a market convergence since those laptops can play basic 3D games. Much like the Wii it's a case of "good enough tech" outselling the high end. People with high end rigs are expected to play games like WoW when 10 years ago they had a lot more games being designed exclusively for them.

except that the biggest hits back then were 2d games like Starcraft and Diablo 2 and 3d still survived

ie: when Warcraft 3 and WoW came out, most people i know who played 'em didn't have a gaming pc or a desktop that they had upgraded

and the fact that more pc's are capable of producing good 3d graphics can only be a good thing for those with capable gaming rigs

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ronvalencia

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#133 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

PC games are still being made, are they not? Games like The Old Republic, WoW and Diablo 3 are being held back in graphics so they can reach a wider audience. Whether or not this is good or bad is subjective. However this is a trend that will only get worse as laptop and Mac gamers grow at a faster rate than pc gamers with rigs.

Mystic-G

Refer to http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.aspx?i=3711

"That of course doesn't tell the full story, and in speaking with ATI we were informed that 70% of sales have been 4300/4500 parts - the lowest performing, least expensive offerings. 15% of sales are from the 4600 series, which is where reasonable gaming can finally enter the picture. As for the 4800 series, it's still sitting at less than 5% (with the remainder of ATI's sales apparently coming from older 3000 series parts). As far as high-end laptop graphics is concerned, NVIDIA has had a clear lead for a while, for a couple of reasons."

http://www.techspot.com/news/35607-amd-intel-gain-gpu-market-share-in-q2-2009.html

Raw numbers for Q1 2009 (74.8M) and Q2 2009(98.3M). Let's do some estimates. AMD has 18.4 percent of PC GPU sales i.e. 31.8504 million for Q1 and Q2. If we apply 15 percent for Radeon HD 4600 series we get 4.77 million for Q1 and Q2 2009. We can estimated that Radeon HD 4600 series annual sales to be around 10 million i.e. Q4 sales are ussually higher. In 3 years, ATI Radeon HD 4600 (RV730) series alone can reach about 30 million i.e. uptake is faster than PS3.

ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4600 series was renamed as ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5165. In another words, RV730 is not end of life (EOL). ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4600 series is now part of Radeon HD 51x0 value segment. ATI Radeon HD 5600 (400 SP, 16 ROPs) series has replaced ATI Radeon HD 4600 series.

Like ATI Radeon HD 2900/3800 series, ATI Radeon HD 4600 series includes the same 320 SPs count and RV730 an entry level "Fat" GpGPU.

Other numbers to consider, Refer to http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases/Pages/amd-takes-market-share-2009aug18.aspx

By the end of Q2 2009,AMD overall takes 53% mobile discrete market share. My estimates for RV730 2009 sales would be higher. We're not even factoring NVIDIA's counterpart to ATI Radeon HD 4600 (RV730) series. NVIDIA's side can cover PS3 while ATI RV730 side can easily cover Xbox 360. In the future, please keep things in proportion.

10 percent of minority in PC world kills Xbo x360/PS3 in yearly unit sales.


The annual PC unit sales is around 300 million. http://www.etforecasts.com/products/ES_pcww1203.htm

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dc337

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#134 dc337
Member since 2008 • 2603 Posts

except that the biggest hits back then were 2d games like Starcraft and Diablo 2

ie: when Warcraft 3 and WoW came out, most people i know who played 'em didn't have a gaming pc or a desktop that they had upgraded

88mphSlayer

There has always been a mainstream audience for developers to target but this gen it has influenced pc exclusives that would normally be designed for medium or high end machines.
and the fact that more pc's are capable of producing good 3d graphics can only be a good thing for those with capable gaming rigs 88mphSlayer
Whether or not it is a good thing depends on how much you value games that make use of advanced 3D engines.

Companies like Bioware and LucasArts are salivating over the millions of WoW subscribers on laptops that send Blizzard a check every month. Thus they keep the graphics low in an effort to attract that same crowd.

I don't think those companies would ditch the pc if all those igpu gamers didn't exist. MMOs would still make money, just not as much. They would build them for higher spec'd machines and wouldn't have to bother making sure they worked on older hardware.

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88mphSlayer

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#135 88mphSlayer
Member since 2010 • 3201 Posts

[QUOTE="88mphSlayer"]except that the biggest hits back then were 2d games like Starcraft and Diablo 2

ie: when Warcraft 3 and WoW came out, most people i know who played 'em didn't have a gaming pc or a desktop that they had upgraded

dc337

There has always been a mainstream audience for developers to target but this gen it has influenced pc exclusives that would normally be designed for medium or high end machines.
and the fact that more pc's are capable of producing good 3d graphics can only be a good thing for those with capable gaming rigs 88mphSlayer
Whether or not it is a good thing depends on how much you value games that make use of advanced 3D engines.

Companies like Bioware and LucasArts are salivating over the millions of WoW subscribers on laptops that send Blizzard a check every month. Thus they keep the graphics low in an effort to attract that same crowd.

I don't think those companies would ditch the pc if all those igpu gamers didn't exist. MMOs would still make money, just not as much. They would build them for higher spec'd machines and wouldn't have to bother making sure they worked on older hardware.

except that games like WoW that don't push graphics but do push marketshare have been around in PC gaming since it first took shape

i'm not entirely sure why that's a detriment, especially when it used to be that new video cards barely provided any noticeable gains, and how especially during the late 90's when 3d on PC took off with Quake 1, Half Life, Quake 3 Arena, UT1999, etc. - at that time it was a very expensive hobby when tons of different video cards were coming out constantly and 3dfx and nvidia and ati essentially divied up the 3d market that was already segregated from the rest of the market, and even then not everybody got great performance vs. nowadays when anybody can spend $140 and max out every game in their library

if anything, have all pc's with capable graphics cards + the still having high end graphics cards come out every year, is the far better solution

that and demanding that every content-rich MMO have beastly graphics itself opens a can of worms regarding funding and profitability of the graphics-focused market

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dc337

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#136 dc337
Member since 2008 • 2603 Posts

Raw numbers for Q1 2009 (74.8M) and Q2 2009(98.3M). Let's do some estimates. AMD has 18.4 percent of PC GPU sales i.e. 31.8504 million for Q1 and Q2. If we apply 15 percent for Radeon HD 4600 series we get 4.77 million for Q1 and Q2 2009. We can estimated that Radeon HD 4600 series annual sales to be around 10 million i.e. Q4 sales are ussually higher. In 3 years, ATI Radeon HD 4600 (RV730) series alone can reach about 30 million i.e. uptake is faster than PS3.ronvalencia

That 15 percent you are using comes from mobile sales, not overall GPU sales.


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ronvalencia

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#137 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]Raw numbers for Q1 2009 (74.8M) and Q2 2009(98.3M). Let's do some estimates. AMD has 18.4 percent of PC GPU sales i.e. 31.8504 million for Q1 and Q2. If we apply 15 percent for Radeon HD 4600 series we get 4.77 million for Q1 and Q2 2009. We can estimated that Radeon HD 4600 series annual sales to be around 10 million i.e. Q4 sales are ussually higher. In 3 years, ATI Radeon HD 4600 (RV730) series alone can reach about 30 million i.e. uptake is faster than PS3.dc337

That 15 percent you are using comes from mobile sales, not overall GPU sales.


It's only an estimate. Do you have better numbers?

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hexashadow13

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#138 hexashadow13
Member since 2010 • 5157 Posts
/agree so much. Apple is holding the world back tech wise.
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kate_jones

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#139 kate_jones
Member since 2007 • 3221 Posts

[QUOTE="LordRork"]

You're making a big reach with "doomed". It's more likely that developers will soften the blow with a few toys and enhancements for those of us out on the bleeding edge while ensuring that their games still work on XP. dc337

Yes you will be able to turn on a few extra shadows with some console ports. I still say doomed because there will not be big budget exclusives that push pc hardware to its limits.
But even that is likely to end in 2-3 years as XP reaches the end of its shelf life.

I don't see laptops or macs being the issue - neither are used on a large scale (at least when compared to the desktop PC) for gaming, and those computers are already more powerful than the consoles in many respects.

LordRork

Laptops and Macs aren't built for gaming but they are being bought in large numbers. The top selling pc games in the last few years have been igpu compatible. Sims, Popcap games, Warcraft, they're all laptop friendly. That market is growing while the high end desktop market is shrinking. Go to a cafe near a college and you will see Macs everywhere. There is a trend towards laptops and Macs which will make the igpu demographic even more lucrative for developers.

Have you seen the previews for Star Wars: The Old Republic? They're clearly toning down the graphics for laptop users. Force Unleashed on the 360 has better graphics which shows how much pc gaming has changed this gen.

People aren't going to take their gaming rig to the cafe.

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Mystic-G

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#140 Mystic-G
Member since 2006 • 6462 Posts

If any 'computer' hurts PC gaming it'd be the fact that we have $450 pre-built computers with a Quad-core cpu, 4GBs+ of ram, 500GB+ HDD, with useless accessories meanwhile it's only using integrated graphics. Seriously, what does a person need all that for if they can't do anything with it?

Imagine how much more popular PC gaming would be if a person could just go buy a pre-built PC for that price or higher off the shelf and be able to take it home and at least play on medium settings. All this blame Apple crap is nothing more than trying to use them as a scapegoat for consoles. As I said before, PC's reputation for piracy and console sales are the two biggest factors today in terms of development priority. If you find it so hard to believe that then go dig a hole and stick your head in it.

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Ondoval

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#141 Ondoval
Member since 2005 • 3103 Posts

Have look at the April Steam hardware survey.

Interesting points:

The most common OS is Windows XP 32 bit with nearly 40% share. Remember that DirectX10 and 11 require Vista or 7.

The most common RAM amount is 2 gigabytes.

The most common display resolution is 1280x1024.

What this amounts to is that pc game developers cannot build DX10 games without ignoring a large chunk of the market. Nvidia is currently pushing a DX11 card which is a joke when most pc games don't even require DX10.

I believe this problem will only be made worse by the trend towards laptops and Macs. The low-end gpu demographic is growing while the high-end is losing influence.

High-end pc gaming is pretty much doomed. It's just too much of a risk for developers to target the latest pc tech when there are safer demographics like consoles and average pcs.

The only thing that can save high-end pc gaming at this point is for hardware companies to invest in game development, even if at a short term loss. Nvidia and AMD seem to think that developers will be jumping over to DX11 but based on current trends they will be tied to DX9 for years to come.

dc337

Aston Martin, Porsche or Lamborghini aren't "doomed" due most of people own a Skoda, Fiat or Chevvy. In fact, they are some of the most successful car makers in terms of profits and revenues.

If you have a PC gaming rig, you can play games; if you have a high-end PC gaming rig, you can play THE SAME games with a lot more quality.

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o0squishy0o

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#142 o0squishy0o
Member since 2007 • 2802 Posts

[QUOTE="dc337"]

Have look at the April Steam hardware survey.

Interesting points:

The most common OS is Windows XP 32 bit with nearly 40% share. Remember that DirectX10 and 11 require Vista or 7.

The most common RAM amount is 2 gigabytes.

The most common display resolution is 1280x1024.

What this amounts to is that pc game developers cannot build DX10 games without ignoring a large chunk of the market. Nvidia is currently pushing a DX11 card which is a joke when most pc games don't even require DX10.

I believe this problem will only be made worse by the trend towards laptops and Macs. The low-end gpu demographic is growing while the high-end is losing influence.

High-end pc gaming is pretty much doomed. It's just too much of a risk for developers to target the latest pc tech when there are safer demographics like consoles and average pcs.

The only thing that can save high-end pc gaming at this point is for hardware companies to invest in game development, even if at a short term loss. Nvidia and AMD seem to think that developers will be jumping over to DX11 but based on current trends they will be tied to DX9 for years to come.

Ondoval

Aston Martin, Porsche or Lamborghini aren't "doomed" due most of people own a Skoda, Fiat or Chevvy. In fact, they are some of the most successful car makers in terms of profits and revenues.

If you have a PC gaming rig, you can play games; if you have a high-end PC gaming rig, you can play THE SAME games with a lot more quality.

You forget that those companies are owned by the other companies you mentioned after haha. Not sure if aston martin is owned by anyone but Lamborghini is under the audi umbrella. Fiat own ferrai and i forget the rest :P Thing is though PC gaming has such a wide platform and no large number of people having high powered rigs means that development to take the advantage is basically a bad business plan.