Let's talk straight about used games and online passes for a moment...

It doesn't bother me since EA seems to be the only company that implements online passes and they've only made about two games that interest me . The only games I've bought from them in the last decade was Madden 09, Nba live 06 and Dead space. Plus I'm not really interested in multiplayer games anyway, so they can lock that off if they want to.

Used games is worse than piracy, not morally but in terms of damage to the developer. With used games there was an actual intent to buy, and stupid people are buying used for what? 5$ cheaper? In the meanwhile the developers get nothing, while gamestop who does nothing gets a huge profit.

I think another issue with these online gaming passes that relate to new purchases is; If I buy a brand new copy of Fifa 11 I can use the code to play it online but if my nephew and me want to play it online using our xbox live accounts together on the same console at the same time then he needs to buy an online pass!

What I am saying is, if a mother buys her two sons Fifa 11 brand new, why should one have to pay to play it online? How has this ungodly evil woman hurt the gaming industry by a brand new copy of the game for her sons to play on the xbox 360? If this was really about protecting the gaming industry then the games online components should be locked to the console. It would then mean the game could only have its online portion used on that specific console.

The real people hurting the gaming industry are the pirates and rental services like Lovefilm, Blockbuster etc.. If the game companies want to protect the games then why not include a single use online code that gives you the first DLC or a DLC of your choice free? EA is serious milking gaming and you can try and and spin it anyway you want but you have to pay for online pass, then pay for DLC for league updates, pay for ultimate team etc... Where does it stop?

I have a question.

What do Online passes actually do? Do they lock you out of multiplayer completely or do they just take away a chunk of content or something like that?

I've completely avoided EA games, so I really don't know how they work.

YES YOU DID. Seriously. You didn't WORD it like that but that's the entire crux of your argument. Or maybe you don't actually understand the point you are making. It comes down to how YOU word it and you chose poorly.

Since we're talking about consoles, I think it's worth noting that Live is p2p and on top of that they pay a monthly. So, really, the burden is not from bandwidth.

AncientDozer

Please point out where I said that, until then you're simply putting words in my mouth. My argument was "Console devs aren't getting money from used games and providing online services only cost the developers money as they do not get money from the purchase that is needed for the online service whilst still providing for the people who did not pay the developers."

And no I did understand the point I was making, you just like to provide hearsay and rumour whilst calling me out for something I never said.

I have nothing against online passes but then again I rarely buy games used and if I do it's not for the MP but the SP experience. So you can say that I am ok with online passes, more money to the industry means more and better games for the players, hopefully.

I have a question.

What do Online passes actually do? Do they lock you out of multiplayer completely or do they just take away a chunk of content or something like that?

Thefatness16

I believe it just locks you out from any online elements in a game like of course MP, online co-op and I am assuming also leaderboards and such. But all the SP content is available to the gamer, not bad to tell you the truth, if a game is a couple years old chances are the MP is not worth playing as it may already dead and most people buy used games for the SP content.

[QUOTE="DerpyMcDerp"]

I agree with online passes, places like Gamestop are killing the video games industry.

tenaka2

I agree, its such a shame that console gamers are destroying their gaming futures.

Used games is worse than piracy, not morally but in terms of damage to the developer. With used games there was an actual intent to buy, and stupid people are buying used for what? 5$ cheaper? In the meanwhile the developers get nothing, while gamestop who does nothing gets a huge profit.

NanoMan88

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="DerpyMcDerp"]

I agree with online passes, places like Gamestop are killing the video games industry.

2-10-08

I agree, its such a shame that console gamers are destroying their gaming futures.

It's a good measure, except for two things:

Pros:

-Gamestop has to sell it for less value, therefor they have less margin profit from used games, and can no longer offer them instead of the original one as much. Developer will get support on that transaction if the person wants to play online on THEIR service.

-Anyone commiting piracy and not being caught will not get through that. So pretty much even pirates will have to pay to play it online.

-If I don't want to play online (XBL free for example), I can sell a code and get a discounted game.

Cons:

- Tied to one account. Another person in the family won't be able to play it online.

-Decreases the resell value. ALTHOUGH, that's not entirely true. A player using the code is the one decreasing resell value. Just like if I buy DLC and sell the game. OMG DEVALUATED! Nope, you still own the content, so it's only normal that if you're not selling a part of a game you sell it. So my tip would be that before you activate anything, you actually see if you like it.

And now for some company perspective

A consumer buying first hand is both a developer/gamestop (to put an example of a shop that resells games) client. This means they are supporting the developer.

A consumer buying second hand on gamestop is only a client of gamestop. Why should the game company care about you not getting online service when you didn't care/understand that you're hurting them?

The poor, poor consumer

Yeah consumer rights and whatnot. But valve puts both ps3 and pc version in a single product, and guess what the goodwill consumer does? Activate PC version, resell PS3. In some cases, taking the amazon offer of 20$ credit, a certain neogaf user Bought PS3 for 55$, got 20$ amazon credit. Sold the ps3 version for 37$ second hand after activating the PC version. Basicly they paid him 2$ to play portal.

If companies give their hands to consumers, the consumers take the whole arm away. This is why we can't have nice things.

Messed up the quote.

I have a question.

What do Online passes actually do? Do they lock you out of multiplayer completely or do they just take away a chunk of content or something like that?

Thefatness16

I believe it just locks you out from any online elements in a game like of course MP, online co-op and I am assuming also leaderboards and such. But all the SP content is available to the gamer, not bad to tell you the truth, if a game is a couple years old chances are the MP is not worth playing as it may already dead and most people buy used games for the SP content.

Thanks

I am fine with online passes, as i always buy new.

My question is, not to go off topic, is my trading in of my games considered hypocritical being that i dont believe in buying used?

I am fine with online passes, as i always buy new.

My question is, not to go off topic, is my trading in of my games considered hypocritical being that i dont believe in buying used?

hawk549

Nope, you're not. One thing is supporting a developer and seeing they gave you something that didn't live up to what you expected/lacks any further content that makes it worthwile to keep.

Another thing is buying a game not supporting the developer and expecting them to welcome you to the online service. If I bought used, i'd understand that there's a requirement like this, AS LONG AS the price is also reduced because it needs a code. Which is what will happen anyways.

Love how people think this affects gamestop at all. It doesn't. They'll just pay less for the game and sell it for less. This mainly is going to affect anyone who wants to sell a game they own and uninformed gamers buying used. Once again, people don't recognize who this fight is actually between. It's not your 'beloved' developers against 'shady' gamestop. I highly doubt those actually making the games came up with this idea or will see a dime more in their salaries. It's a fight against consumers and a new way to circumvent first-sale doctrine. I'm not even 100% sure on the legality of this. The online matchmaking is owned by MS and Sony respectively. The online pass fee is basically like setting up a toll booth to cross a bridge they don't even own for the sole purpose of circumventing the law.

The original post used some well thought out analogies that a lot of people can understand. I agree that online passes are a horrible idea and meant only for pure profit. I dont know about other gamers but I tend to stay away from games that have online passes and if it is a game I want but dont feel it's worth the new price i'll wait until it drops in price which means the developer is most likely losing that $10 profit they would have made since I waited until it dropped to $30. It's mostly the bigger publishers doing this like EA and Activision and they can just suck it. They've been ripping gamers off for years so it's really no surprise.

A better comparison: used movies. You never hear Hollywood complaining about people buying used DvDs off Amazon.IndianaPwns39

This would only be comparable if video games were only released in an arcade type setting and then after 3 months were released on DVD and Blu Ray for home consoles.

You can't compare cars to software, eventually old used cars are no longer usable and new cars have to be purchased, now software doesn't have the same wear and tear that the car industry has, so what happens with used games? Enough starts cicrulationing around that new game prices drop, then you can get to a point where new games aren't even bought... The online pass/dlc just gives the developer a chance to make money on used games, and buy adding these things you add a "wear and tear" because you aren't going to get the "new" car that does everything savagetwinkie

[QUOTE="IndianaPwns39"]A better comparison: used movies. You never hear Hollywood complaining about people buying used DvDs off Amazon.CajunShooter

This would only be comparable if video games were only released in an arcade type setting and then after 3 months were released on DVD and Blu Ray for home consoles.

[QUOTE="IndianaPwns39"]A better comparison: used movies. You never hear Hollywood complaining about people buying used DvDs off Amazon.CajunShooter

This would only be comparable if video games were only released in an arcade type setting and then after 3 months were released on DVD and Blu Ray for home consoles.

lol not true at all bud. dvd sales bring in a hefty amount of revenue actually, especially for movies that don't do so great in theatres. same goes for television shows on dvd. where did you get this idea?

since they essentially get to make money without working for it, which in turn reduces competetiveness while reducing the need for innovation and creativity.Timstuff

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"]You can't compare cars to software, eventually old used cars are no longer usable and new cars have to be purchased, now software doesn't have the same wear and tear that the car industry has, so what happens with used games? Enough starts cicrulationing around that new game prices drop, then you can get to a point where new games aren't even bought... The online pass/dlc just gives the developer a chance to make money on used games, and buy adding these things you add a "wear and tear" because you aren't going to get the "new" car that does everything MFDOOM1983

[QUOTE="MFDOOM1983"]

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"]You can't compare cars to software, eventually old used cars are no longer usable and new cars have to be purchased, now software doesn't have the same wear and tear that the car industry has, so what happens with used games? Enough starts cicrulationing around that new game prices drop, then you can get to a point where new games aren't even bought... The online pass/dlc just gives the developer a chance to make money on used games, and buy adding these things you add a "wear and tear" because you aren't going to get the "new" car that does everything savagetwinkie

I hate preowned games & avoid them like the plague unless I'm forced to buy a rare game. And even then I'll only buy it if it's in good condition. Fortunately for me, rare usually means old & in the future older games will probably be dead online so it won't bother me. If it's helping the games industry, cool, but I can't really comment on this because it doesn't effect me, I always buy new.

I'm fine with reasonable reasons to buy new and passes like BC2's that don't take away your ability to play online, but EA is way to pass happy. I understand that the developers and publishers want the hard earned money, but great games sell well, bad ones are the ones that end up in the used aisle a week later. Its a good way to send a message when it also hurts their sales a bit.

Sounds cruel, but instead of trying to combat it so much they should just focus on making amazing games and doing more in the realm od digital distribution.

[QUOTE="AmnesiaHaze"]

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

the number one objective of a business is to maximise profits. don't like it? go live on the moon

Firebird-5

i'm speaking realisticly. the thing is, publishers are so worried about their quarterly reports that they don't bother building any kind of great relationship with the customer. it's one of the reasons i consider valve to be so successful, because they aren't publicly traded.

it's just a fact of life that companies will do whatever they can to maximise profits. we've got someone talking about economics here, they should realise that the number one priority for a business is to... maximise profits.

I love it!

edit: also, the automotive industry example is incredibly stupid. i thought i posted about that months ago.

If they don't get COD-type sales those poor devs gonna starve!

Homefront sold only a million copies in a couple months. Uh oh! Betta make sure there's a fee if you wanna play it on more than 1 360. It cost lots a money to use an old version of UE3 and clone a couple other games. Gotta make back that advertising money too!

Madden too. Better make sure those guys who can't afford $60/year to play a mediocre football game get stuck with a fee for borrowing or buying used.

I agree with online passes, places like Gamestop are killing the video games industry.

DerpyMcDerp

Yes, Gamestop is awful. I never buy from there, I actually go to a local store owned by a family who actually follows games, and has information on what games are coming out. They actually remember you as a customer and remember which system or systems you own/prefer to get your games on. They also have original Xbox, Gamecube, Ps2, Ps1, NES, SNES, Genesis, etc. games there. Amazing place, Gamestop...not so much.

The people at Gamestop weren't even aware of the Online Pass for Medal of Honor or its lack of LAN play when I talked to them. They have no info on any games nor do they seem to have a passion for games like the local store.

And all their stupid pre-order bonuses end up getting released later on anyways.

[QUOTE="delta3074"]would the developer get any extra money to run the server slot if the initial buyer kept the game? NO, so i fail to see your point, they only get a one time payment for the server slot either way,lolVesica_Prime

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

[QUOTE="garrett_daniels"]

Firstly pirated copies cannot play on the official/legitimate servers, they play on pirated servers. So therefor the original copy of the pirated game (the legal copy) is the only copy to access official servers, so should piracy then proceed since only one copy (the legal copy) can play on official servers legitimately at all times?

[QUOTE="delta3074"]no it isn't a pirated game, your logic is skewed, it's a human right to sell on the things we no longer use, tthat's like saying all used cars and houses are 'pirated' because the intitial car/house builder doesn't get a cut,loldelta3074

I never said "used copies are pirated games" way to put words in my mouth bro. And using used cars and used houses doesn't put stress on the original builders as they do not need to fork out money to maintain the product unlike game developers and their online services.

I agree with online passes, places like Gamestop are killing the video games industry.

[QUOTE="NanoMan88"]

Used games is worse than piracy, not morally but in terms of damage to the developer. With used games there was an actual intent to buy, and stupid people are buying used for what? 5$ cheaper? In the meanwhile the developers get nothing, while gamestop who does nothing gets a huge profit.

2-10-08

What does it matter if its legal or not? piracy is legal in some countries. The simple fact is used games give nothing to the developer, who knows how many times these copies change hands.

Just next time you complain that piracy is killing the industry, look at the used games industry which is 10x bigger. If EA and all these other companies were really as greedy as people say, why wouldnt they put online activation for new games as well? They are specifically targetting the used games industry, which has been robbing devs blind.

PC has had forms of online activation for years, I dont see why consoles should be different

[QUOTE="Pug-Nasty"]

Online passes are just that, passes for the online portion of the game. These aren't one time use codes that unlock the SP portion of the game. Why should a publisher provide you with an on going service you haven't paid for.

garrett_daniels

Because someone playing a new copy is identical to someone playing a used copy. If I buy Halo: Reach new there's one more multiplayer user for that title, but I lose that ability if I sell it or give it away. It doesn't matter whether that copy of Halo: Reach has one owner or a thousand, there's still only one person it online at any one time.

So? You lose one player and gain another to make up for it. One of them paid you and the other didn't. If it's a big deal, don't buy used or don't buy the game at all.

Additionally, I've yet to see a game that uses p2p have MP unlock code. Any game with dedicated servers should use these codes, and all games with online MP should use dedicated servers.

You can argue that online passes don't affect single player but that's beside the point when there are an ever-increasing number of single player-focussed games shipping with single-use DLC codes. Some games (e.g. Mass Effect 2) have the single-use code double as a gateway for additional "free" DLC later on. This harms the core experience of a single player-focussed game in the same way that online passes harm the core experience of a multiplayer-focussed game.

Again, publishers are selling an experience. It isn't a public good. To get it, you have to pay for it. If you aren't paying the people who made it, you don't get the "full" experience... simple as that really. I can buy a TV off the back of a truck, but the police can still take it as evidence even though I paid for it.

When you buy any other physical good you are free to resell it, and anyone would scoff at the suggestion that the original manufacturer should get a cut of any resales. Publishers want to be able to make a living? Big deal, so does every other manufacturer of physical goods.

Not all goods are the same. The physical good isn't what you are paying 60 bucks for when you buy a game, or do you think the disc and packaging is worth that much? Online modes and extra content are being used as incentives to pay the publisher, who in turn pays the developer. If you don't like it, don't support it.

I'll also add that I don't think used game sales are completely bad for the industry. They allow users to turn old games that they don't play into funds for purchaes of new games, and put that old game out there at a cheap price for someone else to try out... and maybe hook them for the sequel.

I think the primary thing publishers need to do is not rush their devs and allow them to fill a game out with quality content. Such a practice would make gamers less likely to sell those games to begin with, but when games are 5 hours, mediocre, and nothing else to do afterwards it's hard to justify holding on to it.

I have no problem with people Ebaying their old games, but places that make a business out of selling used games? The prices difference is miniscule at best and the stores make ridiculously large amounts of profits because of it, which takes money away from developers and as such is killing the industry. If anything, there should be a law preventing stores from selling used games or developers should be charging at least half the price of the game to allow multiplayer access.

DerpyMcDerp

Japan tried that already, & look where that has gotten them. Gamers were so outraged, that their government was forced to make used games legal again. If they try that anywhere else, the result is going to come out the same way.

Used gaming market actually helps the gaming industry, whatever people would want to believe it or not. It's been around for a long time, & it isn't going to stop anytime soon. Plus people who support this practice, along with DLC, etc., just makes me laugh. They don't care about you at all.

Seriously, people... What are we supposed to do when a game is no longer being manufactured, and we still want to own a copy of it? The used market is good because it ensures that all games will be available to buy, sell, trade, and play at any given time. If publishers had their way, every game would be exactly $60 forever, you can only buy a license as a digital download, and each license is permanantly tied to your DNA so no-one can use it except for you. And if they decide to take it off of their online store, too bad, you should have bought it when it first came out.

You may say that used games are robbing our future, but eliminating used games is is going to cause our future to have no history for us to enjoy. Used games will always exist, because there are billions of them out there already that the publishers can't take away, and the sale and trade of those games is always going to compete with the sale of new games on some level. Be thankful that the used game market exists, because it encourages publishers to make games that are worth keeping rather than selling, and it encourages them to make sure that they are worth the $60 asking fee that they ask for.Timstuff

Totally this.

I agree with online passes, places like Gamestop are killing the video games industry.

DerpyMcDerp

So I guess you can afford to buy new games all the time then...There are people that like to save money by,buying used games I have friend like that...This online pass BS will get old and if more companies start doing it will make things worst on them...I don't agree with EA,THQ at all when it comes to this online pass cause right now as far as I can tell its only EA,THQ that are using it...