MS hampering Graphics Development on 360

MS forces devs to follow strict adherence to MS's API not allowing devs to program directly to hardware allowing devs to push the hardware to the limit. Sony on the other hand allows devs to push the PS3 hardware as devs see fit. Basically No dev is pushing the 360's limits. Here is a quote from Lucas Arts Andreev that I got from D4 Danger at Neogaf forums:

"The challenge from here is queuing up the code to display the new image at the right time – no problem at all on either console if your game is locked at 30FPS. According to Andreev, if the game drops below 30FPS the PS3 is still able to carry out the "flip" at the right point between the two frames. However, on Xbox 360, Microsoft's TCRs - the technical rules which dictate what you can and can't do with its hardware - insist that all calls to the graphics hardware go through their own APIs, and there isn't an equivalent system in place on DirectX".

Andreev's solution for presenting the interpolated image in a sub-30FPS scenario involves talking directly to the hardware and bypassing the API, violating Microsoft's sinister-sounding "TCR #12" - in place to make sure that all games will work on all revisions of Xbox 360 past, present and future. There's nothing to stop Microsoft adding it to future revisions of its development tools, but it is an interesting reminder - if not a direct example - of how strict adherence to the 360's console-optimised DirectX layer may be holding more adventurous 360 developers back, something Digital Foundry has discussed in the past.

Here is the link from Gaf: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=405549&page=2

So I guess 360 is more powerful afterall.

A console being controlled by its maker?

NEVER!

These rules are set in place for a reason, and they should never have lifted the 720p limit imo.

there's alot more we wont see from the 360. anyway the 360 has never been about graphics

It isn't that MS are really holding back the technology as they are restricting clever rendering tricks like what LucasArts is trying to do. If LucasArts or another developer comes forward and shows how opening up the software can improve their game, MS will change their guidelines.

Is like a new excuse every day,even that several developer had already claim the PS3 just had more raw power,i don't think guide lines are stopping developer,after all live also had guide lines,and EA easily broke them,if a developer want they will do it,or MS can face the same problem they face when EA threaten them with pulling support for online games.

lol, now the excuse from Lems is MS WANTS the games to be inferior graphics wise? sure, I believe that lol.darthogre

not a Lem, but Im gonna stick with MS was games that are FUN...graphics don't make a game fun

lol, now the excuse from Lems is MS WANTS the games to be inferior graphics wise? sure, I believe that lol.darthogre

No they don't want their games to be inferior but MS won't allow devs to program down to the core of the 360 something Sony has No problem letting devs do. Until MS changes their policy on this we may never see what the 360 can really do. Also you can take your fanboy goggles off and actually read the quote to understand what the topic is about. Sony is alot more linear with allowing devs do what they want with the hardware.

So I guess 360 is more powerful afterall.

slipknot0129

Maybe this is related to RROD. It would make sense.

Is like a new excuse every day,even that several developer had already claim the PS3 just had more raw power,i don't think guide lines are stopping developer,after all live also had guide lines,and EA easily broke them,if a developer want they will do it,or MS can face the same problem they face when EA threaten them with pulling support for online games.

Eltormo

So....360 has power we haven't seen yet?93soccer

Maybe this is related to RROD. It would make sense.

Heirren

[QUOTE="Eltormo"]

Is like a new excuse every day,even that several developer had already claim the PS3 just had more raw power,i don't think guide lines are stopping developer,after all live also had guide lines,and EA easily broke them,if a developer want they will do it,or MS can face the same problem they face when EA threaten them with pulling support for online games.

delta3074

sony will be hampering ps3 game graphics with 3D. their was already a news story about it:P

A console being controlled by its maker?

NEVER!

These rules are set in place for a reason, and they should never have lifted the 720p limit imo.

Snagal123

"BuH, BuH, bUt oF CoUrSe tEh 360 iZ tEh mORe PoWeRfuLz, wE jUsT haVe NoT sEeN iT yEtz!" In other words... just wait.:P Sorry, I could not resist.

• Lol Woot? MS doesn't want good looking games?
• It may be related to RROD, even without pushing the console good looking games have been known to cause RROD and other hardware failures.
• In essence it's a bad design job by MS, we'll never see the 360 pull off Graphics Kings.

If they make a new console next generation I really hope they take their time designing it and not rush it with all these problems. Because even if the latest models have fixed the original problems, they're still limited because of the millions of already sold models. Prones to RROD, with no Hard Drive etc.

• Lol Woot? MS doesn't want good looking games?
• It may be related to RROD, even without pushing the console good looking games have been known to cause RROD and other hardware failures.
• In essence it's a bad design job by MS, we'll never see the 360 pull off Graphics Kings.

If they make a new console next generation I really hope they take their time designing it and not rush it with all these problems. Because even if the latest models have fixed the original problems, they're still limited because of the millions of already sold models. Prones to RROD, with no Hard Drive etc.

Gamtrix

Name one good looking game that's known to cause RROD.

[QUOTE="darthogre"]lol, now the excuse from Lems is MS WANTS the games to be inferior graphics wise? sure, I believe that lol.EG101

No they don't want their games to be inferior but MS won't allow devs to program down to the core of the 360 something Sony has No problem letting devs do. Until MS changes their policy on this we may never see what the 360 can really do. Also you can take your fanboy goggles off and actually read the quote to understand what the topic is about. Sony is alot more linear with allowing devs do what they want with the hardware.

I think the only way i could even begin to believe that is, that if the hardware is push in sertain way that allow for better graphics it would kill the unit,remember the xbox 360 has a heating problem,the more you push the unit the hotter it gets,the first time i got an RROD was while playing Gears of war,and Gears did kill many 360 out there,so in that regard i could believe it could hold some thruth,but because of MS guide lines na i don't think so,MS in special who since 2005 has say the xbox 360 is more powerful,if they had a way to prove it i don't think they will hold it because of some crappy guideline.

[QUOTE="Gamtrix"]

• Lol Woot? MS doesn't want good looking games?
• It may be related to RROD, even without pushing the console good looking games have been known to cause RROD and other hardware failures.
• In essence it's a bad design job by MS, we'll never see the 360 pull off Graphics Kings.

If they make a new console next generation I really hope they take their time designing it and not rush it with all these problems. Because even if the latest models have fixed the original problems, they're still limited because of the millions of already sold models. Prones to RROD, with no Hard Drive etc.

waltefmoney

Name one good looking game that's known to cause RROD.

Well, I'd rather my xbox not explode, and MS is a big company, they most likely made their decision for good reason

• Lol Woot? MS doesn't want good looking games?
• It may be related to RROD, even without pushing the console good looking games have been known to cause RROD and other hardware failures.
• In essence it's a bad design job by MS, we'll never see the 360 pull off Graphics Kings.

If they make a new console next generation I really hope they take their time designing it and not rush it with all these problems. Because even if the latest models have fixed the original problems, they're still limited because of the millions of already sold models. Prones to RROD, with no Hard Drive etc.

Gamtrix

[QUOTE="waltefmoney"]

[QUOTE="Gamtrix"]

• Lol Woot? MS doesn't want good looking games?
• It may be related to RROD, even without pushing the console good looking games have been known to cause RROD and other hardware failures.
• In essence it's a bad design job by MS, we'll never see the 360 pull off Graphics Kings.

If they make a new console next generation I really hope they take their time designing it and not rush it with all these problems. Because even if the latest models have fixed the original problems, they're still limited because of the millions of already sold models. Prones to RROD, with no Hard Drive etc.

Gamtrix

Name one good looking game that's known to cause RROD.

[QUOTE="EG101"]

[QUOTE="darthogre"]lol, now the excuse from Lems is MS WANTS the games to be inferior graphics wise? sure, I believe that lol.Eltormo

No they don't want their games to be inferior but MS won't allow devs to program down to the core of the 360 something Sony has No problem letting devs do. Until MS changes their policy on this we may never see what the 360 can really do. Also you can take your fanboy goggles off and actually read the quote to understand what the topic is about. Sony is alot more linear with allowing devs do what they want with the hardware.

I think the only way i could even begin to believe that is, that if the hardware is push in sertain way that allow for better graphics it would kill the unit,remember the xbox 360 has a heating problem,the more you push the unit the hotter it gets,the first time i got an RROD was while playing Gears of war,and Gears did kill many 360 out there,so in that regard i could believe it could hold some thruth,but because of MS guide lines na i don't think so,MS in special who since 2005 has say the xbox 360 is more powerful,if they had a way to prove it i don't think they will hold it because of some crappy guideline.

In all seriousness, I am fine with the visuals on the 360. All I am concerned about are the games. Hopefully, we will be hearing about more exclusives soon.

I did not understand this post at all. Can someone tell me in english? :lol: . I heard Graphics,MS, Lucasart,and restrict. But i dun understand.

[QUOTE="Gamtrix"]

• Lol Woot? MS doesn't want good looking games?
• It may be related to RROD, even without pushing the console good looking games have been known to cause RROD and other hardware failures.
• In essence it's a bad design job by MS, we'll never see the 360 pull off Graphics Kings.

If they make a new console next generation I really hope they take their time designing it and not rush it with all these problems. Because even if the latest models have fixed the original problems, they're still limited because of the millions of already sold models. Prones to RROD, with no Hard Drive etc.

waltefmoney

Name one good looking game that's known to cause RROD.

[QUOTE="Snagal123"]

A console being controlled by its maker?

NEVER!

These rules are set in place for a reason, and they should never have lifted the 720p limit imo.

savagetwinkie

That sounds like a pretty good reason to me.

[QUOTE="Eltormo"]

[QUOTE="EG101"]

No they don't want their games to be inferior but MS won't allow devs to program down to the core of the 360 something Sony has No problem letting devs do. Until MS changes their policy on this we may never see what the 360 can really do. Also you can take your fanboy goggles off and actually read the quote to understand what the topic is about. Sony is alot more linear with allowing devs do what they want with the hardware.

savagetwinkie

I think the only way i could even begin to believe that is, that if the hardware is push in sertain way that allow for better graphics it would kill the unit,remember the xbox 360 has a heating problem,the more you push the unit the hotter it gets,the first time i got an RROD was while playing Gears of war,and Gears did kill many 360 out there,so in that regard i could believe it could hold some thruth,but because of MS guide lines na i don't think so,MS in special who since 2005 has say the xbox 360 is more powerful,if they had a way to prove it i don't think they will hold it because of some crappy guideline.

Name one good looking game that's known to cause RROD.

waltefmoney

Gears.?

[QUOTE="waltefmoney"]

Name one good looking game that's known to cause RROD.

Eltormo

Gears.?

Weird, I've put countless hours into Gears 1 and 2, replayed them several times, played tons of multiplayer, but I have yet to have a 360 RROD. Maybe because I install every game on the hard drive, dunno.

[QUOTE="waltefmoney"]

Name one good looking game that's known to cause RROD.

Eltormo

Gears.?

[QUOTE="Eltormo"]

[QUOTE="waltefmoney"]

Name one good looking game that's known to cause RROD.

waltefmoney

Gears.?

Weird, I've put countless hours into Gears 1 and 2, replayed them several times, played tons of multiplayer, but I have yet to have a 360 RROD. Maybe because I install every game on the hard drive, dunno.

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"][QUOTE="Eltormo"]

I think the only way i could even begin to believe that is, that if the hardware is push in sertain way that allow for better graphics it would kill the unit,remember the xbox 360 has a heating problem,the more you push the unit the hotter it gets,the first time i got an RROD was while playing Gears of war,and Gears did kill many 360 out there,so in that regard i could believe it could hold some thruth,but because of MS guide lines na i don't think so,MS in special who since 2005 has say the xbox 360 is more powerful,if they had a way to prove it i don't think they will hold it because of some crappy guideline.

delta3074

it doesn't matter what they use as a vid card since all the games use directx in this case, meaning w/e they use next just needs directx api and thats it

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"][QUOTE="Eltormo"]

I think the only way i could even begin to believe that is, that if the hardware is push in sertain way that allow for better graphics it would kill the unit,remember the xbox 360 has a heating problem,the more you push the unit the hotter it gets,the first time i got an RROD was while playing Gears of war,and Gears did kill many 360 out there,so in that regard i could believe it could hold some thruth,but because of MS guide lines na i don't think so,MS in special who since 2005 has say the xbox 360 is more powerful,if they had a way to prove it i don't think they will hold it because of some crappy guideline.

delta3074

[QUOTE="delta3074"][QUOTE="savagetwinkie"] its more to do with backwards compatibility, you make games use api's and certain standards then moving onto the next gen you won't have to keep the same hardware like sony sticking in the ps2 parts into the ps3, and you won't have to try and emulate it like 360 does with xbox games. next gen is going to be a very smooth transition for use xbox owners and I'll take that over a marginal difference in graphics.savagetwinkie

it doesn't matter what they use as a vid card since all the games use directx in this case, meaning w/e they use next just needs directx api and thats it

• Lol Woot? MS doesn't want good looking games?
• It may be related to RROD, even without pushing the console good looking games have been known to cause RROD and other hardware failures.
• In essence it's a bad design job by MS, we'll never see the 360 pull off Graphics Kings.

If they make a new console next generation I really hope they take their time designing it and not rush it with all these problems. Because even if the latest models have fixed the original problems, they're still limited because of the millions of already sold models. Prones to RROD, with no Hard Drive etc.

Gamtrix

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"]

[QUOTE="delta3074"]the main reason they had to emulate backwards compatibility is because the xbox used an Nvidia GPU which lacked USA, the 360 an ATI GPU, MS will not have that problem next gen as they have already chosen ATI to make the next GPUdelta3074

it doesn't matter what they use as a vid card since all the games use directx in this case, meaning w/e they use next just needs directx api and thats it

[QUOTE="delta3074"][QUOTE="savagetwinkie"] ok, be more useless because you didn't ad to my argument or counter it...it doesn't matter what they use as a vid card since all the games use directx in this case, meaning w/e they use next just needs directx api and thats itsavagetwinkie

M$ really is the cancer to gaming as we all know it. :|
Total control even on what devs. are allowed to do, just wow. So the excuse now is ''We don't get games like Uncharted 2 because the limiter on 360 isn't removed yet!'' :lol:

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"][QUOTE="delta3074"]no need to b offensive about it, i actually read somewhere that this was the problem, that and the fact a lot of xbox games utilised the HDD on the xbox, something that was missing on the arcade model 360, and what i stated actually went in line with what you where saying about API's anyway, there was no need to be rude was there?delta3074

M$ really is the cancer to gaming as we all know it. Locutus_Picard