What is a theif if he has nothing to steal. If property is no longer property then why produce goods in the first place? If we remove the value from video games, then they disapear. No one owns them, and there is nothing wrong with taking them for free, so then they simply will no longer exsist because why waste time making something that has no value? Remove the purpose of value and all you have left is the downfall of civilisation as we know it. Does a theif really want to destroy the world by removing the value from objects? Of course not, that would be an inconvience for him. So under what ethical system would be ok to walk a path of destruction with no desire to destroy? That would be illogical. It wouldn't matter if I disagree, I'm only stating what would happen, and why it is hypocritical to state that stealing can be justifiable while at the same time feeling that we deserve more than were worth is ok when to steal is to remove the concept of worth. At no point have I simply said "This is wrong". I've just applied logic and came to a resonable conclusion that can be backed by evidence. The only way the ethical system you describe could ever be considered acceptable/correct would be if people were completely and utterly ignorant of the consequences of their actions, and in which case it's still invalid because it's an ethical system built on short sighted ignorance.Ek-AndyThere are more justifications for producing goods than for the advancement of a select few. Under this ethical system, it would be for the shared prosperity of the collective, and everyone would equally benefit through equal access to materials. Sharing of resources would improve the general knowledge pool. Besides, I didn't say there isn't anything to steal, I merely said that you can't have ownership of that which "consists solely of arithmetic formulas". You can still be held responsible for stealing things that are not "solely arithmetic formulas". The only thing this ethical system justifies 'stealing' as you would call it are PC games, software, online books and music. Besides, under this system it isn't necessarily a path to destruction either. You're applying the standards of your own system to this one, when they are in fact quite different. Under this system, computer software is no different than air.
MSNBC talks piracy with stardock
This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="Ek-Andy"]Robin Hood robed from those who got something for nothing and gave to those who got nothing for something. The Robin Hood you talk of robs from those who get nothing for something and give to those who want something for nothing. See how it's illogical to defend that action? Robing from the productive to give to the useless. A complete imbalance. It dosn't matter how consumers are treated, that dosn't give you an excuse to rebel against those you rely on. Eventually that revolution will be succesful and all it will have achived is to destroy what is important to us. That's pure destruction for the sake of greed, entirely selfish aswell as illogical.VandalvideoThis is where you're entirely wrong. When dealing with morality and ethics, there are more than one way one can justify an action. These are labeled as normative theories, ethical guidelines which rely on a set number of criteria to tell ourselves if an action is right or wrong. The justifications a pirate uses are valid under all six criteria of a normative ethical theory. You may not like their justifications, but that doesn't make them any less sound. They are fighting for something that they see as an affront to society. and what affront to society are they fighting again. the way i see it is, they just dont want to pay for games
[QUOTE="Ek-Andy"]What is a theif if he has nothing to steal. If property is no longer property then why produce goods in the first place? If we remove the value from video games, then they disapear. No one owns them, and there is nothing wrong with taking them for free, so then they simply will no longer exsist because why waste time making something that has no value? Remove the purpose of value and all you have left is the downfall of civilisation as we know it. Does a theif really want to destroy the world by removing the value from objects? Of course not, that would be an inconvience for him. So under what ethical system would be ok to walk a path of destruction with no desire to destroy? That would be illogical. It wouldn't matter if I disagree, I'm only stating what would happen, and why it is hypocritical to state that stealing can be justifiable while at the same time feeling that we deserve more than were worth is ok when to steal is to remove the concept of worth. At no point have I simply said "This is wrong". I've just applied logic and came to a resonable conclusion that can be backed by evidence. The only way the ethical system you describe could ever be considered acceptable/correct would be if people were completely and utterly ignorant of the consequences of their actions, and in which case it's still invalid because it's an ethical system built on short sighted ignorance.VandalvideoThere are more justifications for producing goods than for the advancement of a select few. Under this ethical system, it would be for the shared prosperity of the collective, and everyone would equally benefit through equal access to materials. Sharing of resources would improve the general knowledge pool. Besides, I didn't say there isn't anything to steal, I merely said that you can't have ownership of that which "consists solely of arithmetic formulas". You can still be held responsible for stealing things that are not "solely arithmetic formulas". The only thing this ethical system justifies 'stealing' as you would call it are PC games, software, online books and music. Besides, under this system it isn't necessarily a path to destruction either. You're applying the standards of your own system to this one, when they are in fact quite different.
Back to what I said before, for this to work the developer needs to get something for it's something. What you are suggesting is that the ethical system of pirates is that they wish to share the developers something so that they can at some point return value for value. I see no evidence of pirates actually returning anything to the developers who created the game in the first place with no intent on providing it for free. By these ethical standards video games can no longer exsist because what we call "pirates" under our ethical system do not return value for value, and hence no one will continue to produce objects of no value. Yet these pirates want video games to exist, so what happens when they are gone? That ethical system will have failed, and hence it will have been proven to be illogical because it relied on circustances that were not sustainable.
If air were produced by humans they would want something in return for their services. Without that they wont produce air for anyone but themsevles and everyone dies, which is illogical. If these pirates just took the air and gave nothing in return then the will simply kill themselves. See how that is illogical?
Actually the CEO of stardock blames his guys and not the pirates or gamestop. He admits they screwed up by designing crappy net code and auto update feature.Blame gamestop. People couldn't buy the game but had a chance to try it, due to their stupidness.
Espada12
Back to what I said before, for this to work the developer needs to get something for it's something. What you are suggesting is that the ethical system of pirates is that they wish to share the developers something so that they can at some point return value for value. I see no evidence of pirates actually returning anything to the developers who created the game in the first place with no intent on providing it for free. By these ethical standards video games can no longer exsist because what we call "pirates" under our ethical system do not return value for value, and hence no one will continue to produce objects of no value. Yet these pirates want video games to exist, so what happens when they are gone? That ethical system will have failed, and hence it will have been proven to be illogical because it relied on circustances that were not sustainable.Ek-AndyNot neccessarily. Thanks to the communal nature of this hypothetical society, people already have a high standard of living and are given more free range to express themselves intellectually to the collective, which prospers from the combined pool of knowledge readily disseminated to all the inhabitants of the society. In an attempt to provide their two cents, people would have the time and resources to give their own ideas to the collective. What I'm saying is that there are justifications for piracy out there, and to say that the act, prima facie, is illogical is quite wrong. That is the primary problem I had with your earlier post. There have also been surveys done by companies which showed a trend in pirates to have motivations beyond saving money. Video games would still exist, they would merely be communal property, created be the willing. Just like the mod community is now, people would offer the wisdom to everyone else to show them how awesome they are. This ethical system doesn't inherently lead to failure in and of itself. This is the system by which the mod community thrives upon.
There are more justifications for producing goods than for the advancement of a select few. Under this ethical system, it would be for the shared prosperity of the collective, and everyone would equally benefit through equal access to materials. Sharing of resources would improve the general knowledge pool. Besides, I didn't say there isn't anything to steal, I merely said that you can't have ownership of that which "consists solely of arithmetic formulas". You can still be held responsible for stealing things that are not "solely arithmetic formulas". The only thing this ethical system justifies 'stealing' as you would call it are PC games, software, online books and music. Besides, under this system it isn't necessarily a path to destruction either. You're applying the standards of your own system to this one, when they are in fact quite different.[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Ek-Andy"]What is a theif if he has nothing to steal. If property is no longer property then why produce goods in the first place? If we remove the value from video games, then they disapear. No one owns them, and there is nothing wrong with taking them for free, so then they simply will no longer exsist because why waste time making something that has no value? Remove the purpose of value and all you have left is the downfall of civilisation as we know it. Does a theif really want to destroy the world by removing the value from objects? Of course not, that would be an inconvience for him. So under what ethical system would be ok to walk a path of destruction with no desire to destroy? That would be illogical. It wouldn't matter if I disagree, I'm only stating what would happen, and why it is hypocritical to state that stealing can be justifiable while at the same time feeling that we deserve more than were worth is ok when to steal is to remove the concept of worth. At no point have I simply said "This is wrong". I've just applied logic and came to a resonable conclusion that can be backed by evidence. The only way the ethical system you describe could ever be considered acceptable/correct would be if people were completely and utterly ignorant of the consequences of their actions, and in which case it's still invalid because it's an ethical system built on short sighted ignorance.Ek-Andy
Back to what I said before, for this to work the developer needs to get something for it's something. What you are suggesting is that the ethical system of pirates is that they wish to share the developers something so that they can at some point return value for value. I see no evidence of pirates actually returning anything to the developers who created the game in the first place with no intent on providing it for free. By these ethical standards video games can no longer exsist because what we call "pirates" under our ethical system do not return value for value, and hence no one will continue to produce objects of no value. Yet these pirates want video games to exist, so what happens when they are gone? That ethical system will have failed, and hence it will have been proven to be illogical because it relied on circustances that were not sustainable.
If air were produced by humans they would want something in return for their services. Without that they wont produce air for anyone but themsevles and everyone dies, which is illogical. If these pirates just took the air and gave nothing in return then the will simply kill themselves. See how that is illogical?
You win the thread.Vandal...how in the heck you got into GUFU I will never understand.killab2oo5I've been in GUFU fooooor a good year now. I've just been too lazy to get a sig.
[QUOTE="killab2oo5"]Vandal...how in the heck you got into GUFU I will never understand.VandalvideoI've been in GUFU fooooor a good year now. I've just been too lazy to get a sig.And I still don't understand.
People, explain this list:
Top 10 Most Pirated Games of 2008
you see? most of these games are the best of 2008, (crysis, Fallout 3, San andress etc...) and yet people pirated them, why? the quality is so high in these titles, however pirated didn't buy these games and instead just torrent'ed them.
Is it the price? I don't think so, because San Andress and crysis were dirt cheap in 2008.
Then, why pirate do this?
Because it's FREE
no matter how good the game or bad is the game, they don't care, they just download it.
More attention, more people buying, more pirates. I'd be more concerned with proportionality and unique users.People, explain this list:
Top 10 Most Pirated Games of 2008
you see? most of these games are the best of 2008, (crysis, Fallout 3, San andress etc...) and yet people pirated them, why? the quality is so high in these titles, however pirated didn't buy these games and instead just torrent'ed them.
Is it the price? I don't think so, because San Andress and crysis were dirt cheap in 2008.Then, why pirate do this?
Because it's FREE
no matter how good the game or bad is the game, they don't care, they just download it.
kingfire11
More attention, more people buying, more pirates. I'd be more concerned with proportionality and unique users.VandalvideoDidn't you say good games are less likely to be pirated? All those are considered great games, going by Gamerankings and Gamespot.
[QUOTE="Ek-Andy"]Back to what I said before, for this to work the developer needs to get something for it's something. What you are suggesting is that the ethical system of pirates is that they wish to share the developers something so that they can at some point return value for value. I see no evidence of pirates actually returning anything to the developers who created the game in the first place with no intent on providing it for free. By these ethical standards video games can no longer exsist because what we call "pirates" under our ethical system do not return value for value, and hence no one will continue to produce objects of no value. Yet these pirates want video games to exist, so what happens when they are gone? That ethical system will have failed, and hence it will have been proven to be illogical because it relied on circustances that were not sustainable.VandalvideoNot neccessarily. Thanks to the communal nature of this hypothetical society, people already have a high standard of living and are given more free range to express themselves intellectually to the collective, which prospers from the combined pool of knowledge readily disseminated to all the inhabitants of the society. In an attempt to provide their two cents, people would have the time and resources to give their own ideas to the collective. What I'm saying is that there are justifications for piracy out there, and to say that the act, prima facie, is illogical is quite wrong. That is the primary problem I had with your earlier post. There have also been surveys done by companies which showed a trend in pirates to have motivations beyond saving money. Video games would still exist, they would merely be communal property, created be the willing. Just like the mod community is now, people would offer the wisdom to everyone else to show them how awesome they are. This ethical system doesn't inherently lead to failure in and of itself. This is the system by which the mod community thrives upon.
This ethical system states that the developer must want to offer its product for free, in return for something that is of much less value for them, but clearly they do not. They wont retrieve anything anywhere near equal to what they offer in return for their services, and hence who would want to produce when you get far better value from taking and giving back a small amount of advice? It would fail. It can only work if its value for value. Simply offering a little information to make a better product is not trading equal amounts of value, clearly there is an imbalance as it takes much more effort to make a game ("Not nessecarily." Yes nessecarily.). The problem is this other ethical system you describe is entirely illogical and can be proved to be so by simply simulating what would happen in an enviroment where you do not trade value for value. If you get paid the same to be a brain surgeon or a taxi driver what would you be? You havn't offered a solid ethical system that is not riddeled with holes that can clearly state that piracy is ok. All you have done is tried to justify greed, which is to trade for less than what something is worth. The mod community simply do what they do as a hobby, that could never work on a professional level. They are getting more than advice for what they do though, they get experience, and they get support and appreciation. That is closer to trading value for value, but anything more than a mod would be dispraportionate.
No, I said bad games get pirated more. I mean, when you have more attention and more people buying, you're naturally going to have more pirates. I mean, if Fallout 3 sold X ammount and 50% of all people playing pirated, that would porportionally less than the nearly 70% on Demigod.Vandalvideo
The better a PC game is, the less likely people will be to pirate it.VandalvideoYour quote...
EDIT: Demigod has a 77% on Gamerankings out of 10 reviews. That's considered a "good" game, on the verge on great.
People, explain this list:
Top 10 Most Pirated Games of 2008
you see? most of these games are the best of 2008, (crysis, Fallout 3, San andress etc...) and yet people pirated them, why? the quality is so high in these titles, however pirated didn't buy these games and instead just torrent'ed them.
Is it the price? I don't think so, because San Andress and crysis were dirt cheap in 2008.Then, why pirate do this?
Because it's FREE
no matter how good the game or bad is the game, they don't care, they just download it.
kingfire11
All those games sold well but FC2 i think. But aside from that you are correct.
This ethical system states that the developer must want to offer its product for free, in return for something that is of much less value for them, but clearly they do not. They wont retrieve anything anywhere near equal to what they offer in return for their services, and hence who would want to produce when you get far better value from taking and giving back a small amount of advice? It would fail. It can only work if its value for value. Simply offering a little information to make a better product is not trading equal amounts of value, clearly there is an imbalance as it takes much more effort to make a game ("Not nessecarily." Yes nessecarily.). The problem is this other ethical system you describe is entirely illogical and can be proved to be so by simply simulating what would happen in an enviroment where you do not trade value for value. If you get paid the same to be a brain surgeon or a taxi driver what would you be? You havn't offered a solid ethical system that is not riddeled with holes that can clearly state that piracy is ok. All you have done is tried to justify greed, which is to trade for less than what something is worth. The mod community simply do what they do as a hobby, that could never work on a professional level. They are getting more than advice for what they do though, they get experience, and they get support and appreciation. That is closer to trading value for value, but anything more than a mod would be dispraportionate.Ek-AndyThere are examples of communal property allowing for the development of even greater games than the ones we normally see in retail. Look at games like Counter Strike, Red Orchestra, and Altered Species. Alot of the best games of all time have been mods, which were made without any kind of tangible money incentives for the modders. In some cases, the mods were later submitted to competition, but the people created them out of communla spirit. There isn't anything that says people wouldn't keep creating things in this type of society. That is an assumption of yours that is largely unfounded without anything to back it up. You don't necessarily have to be a professional game develoepr to still produce great games. Our game developers could be bakers, car salesmen, IT guys, etc. In their spare time, just like with the mod community, they could develop games in their spare time. As illustrated by some mods, great things can come out of this communal spirit. Your basic assumption is faulty at best.
Your quote...EDIT: Demigod has a 77% on Gamerankings out of 10 reviews. That's considered a "good" game, on the verge on great.killab2oo5Which proves my point. Proportionally speaking, the better games have less pirates than those games that are worse off. And Demigod is a mess of a game with poor matchmaking, latency issues, no regionalization, no story, and generally repetitive and unbalanced gameplay.
[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]No, I said bad games get pirated more. I mean, when you have more attention and more people buying, you're naturally going to have more pirates. I mean, if Fallout 3 sold X ammount and 50% of all people playing pirated, that would porportionally less than the nearly 70% on Demigod.killab2oo5
The better a PC game is, the less likely people will be to pirate it.VandalvideoYour quote...
No. The lower the sales the higher the percentage of people who will pirate the game. The number of pirates might be the same for a game selling 200,000 as one selling 1 million, and that would simply be because the people who wouldn't pirate would actually go out and buy the game if it looked good to them, while the pirates will pirate anyway regardless of quality because they don't need to worry about money.
[QUOTE="killab2oo5"] Your quote...EDIT: Demigod has a 77% on Gamerankings out of 10 reviews. That's considered a "good" game, on the verge on great.VandalvideoWhich proves my point. Proportionally speaking, the better games have less pirates than those games that are worse off. And Demigod is a mess of a game with poor matchmaking, latency issues, no regionalization, no story, and generally repetitive and unbalanced gameplay.What proves your point? And I haven't played Demigod myself, but the general feedback is good. It just has (or had) a lot of network issues which have been fixed.
[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="killab2oo5"] Your quote...EDIT: Demigod has a 77% on Gamerankings out of 10 reviews. That's considered a "good" game, on the verge on great.killab2oo5Which proves my point. Proportionally speaking, the better games have less pirates than those games that are worse off. And Demigod is a mess of a game with poor matchmaking, latency issues, no regionalization, no story, and generally repetitive and unbalanced gameplay.What proves your point? And I haven't played Demigod myself, but the general feedback is good. It just has (or had) a lot of network issues which have been fixed.
The pirates caused the issues. Stardock said that themselves, I don't understand why he is using that against the game.
[QUOTE="Ek-Andy"]This ethical system states that the developer must want to offer its product for free, in return for something that is of much less value for them, but clearly they do not. They wont retrieve anything anywhere near equal to what they offer in return for their services, and hence who would want to produce when you get far better value from taking and giving back a small amount of advice? It would fail. It can only work if its value for value. Simply offering a little information to make a better product is not trading equal amounts of value, clearly there is an imbalance as it takes much more effort to make a game ("Not nessecarily." Yes nessecarily.). The problem is this other ethical system you describe is entirely illogical and can be proved to be so by simply simulating what would happen in an enviroment where you do not trade value for value. If you get paid the same to be a brain surgeon or a taxi driver what would you be? You havn't offered a solid ethical system that is not riddeled with holes that can clearly state that piracy is ok. All you have done is tried to justify greed, which is to trade for less than what something is worth. The mod community simply do what they do as a hobby, that could never work on a professional level. They are getting more than advice for what they do though, they get experience, and they get support and appreciation. That is closer to trading value for value, but anything more than a mod would be dispraportionate.VandalvideoThere are examples of communal property allowing for the development of even greater games than the ones we normally see in retail. Look at games like Counter Strike, Red Orchestra, and Altered Species. Alot of the best games of all time have been mods, which were made without any kind of tangible money incentives for the modders. In some cases, the mods were later submitted to competition, but the people created them out of communla spirit. There isn't anything that says people wouldn't keep creating things in this type of society. That is an assumption of yours that is largely unfounded without anything to back it up. You don't necessarily have to be a professional game develoepr to still produce great games. Our game developers could be bakers, car salesmen, IT guys, etc. In their spare time, just like with the mod community, they could develop games in their spare time. As illustrated by some mods, great things can come out of this communal spirit. Your basic assumption is faulty at best.
See those examples? All sold at value for value. You seem to be making the assumption that you can create games at a professional level without actually charging anything for them while not being able to buy sufficent materials because you arn't making any money, while at the same time maintaining another job (Ever heard of a professional baker/game developer? Guess why you havn't.). You might have had a point if those games were free, but they are not. Eventually they would need to get more than what they would get from a mod if they were planning to keep profesional game development sustainable. Your argument is actually getting more illogical.
What proves your point? And I haven't played Demigod myself, but the general feedback is good. It just has (or had) a lot of network issues which have been fixed.killab2oo5Which ahve been fixed? HECK NO. I was trying to play the game today and I'm still having horrible latency issues. My point was that better games are less likely to be pirated. In a game which sells one million and has 500K pirates, that would be less pirated than a game which sells 50K and has 150K pirates.
See those examples? All sold at value for value. You seem to be making the assumption that you can create games at a professional level without actually charging anything for them while not being able to buy sufficent materials because you arn't making any money, while at the same time maintaining another job (Ever heard of a professional baker/game developer? Guess why you havn't.). You might have had a point if those games were free, but they are not. Eventually they would need to get more than what they would get from a mod if they were planning to keep profesional game development sustainable. Your argument is actually getting more illogical.Ek-AndyThose mods hadn't been sold after they were picked up by developers later on. The mods, in their original state, were never created for monetary purposes, or atleast overt monetary purposes. The mod community is communal in nature, and from that community great games come. You cannot necessarily say that we would stop having great games because game development would become communal. I personally would prefer more indie communal games than the large, overbearing peices of rehashed crap we have now where there isn't any originality and every new IP is a degradation of some great novel. A modder doesn't have to be professional to make great games or to sustain himself.
The pirates caused the issues. Stardock said that themselves, I don't understand why he is using that against the game.Espada12Considering there are only 2K Demigods, I'm not entirely sure how these supposed 140K pirates are dragging the system down.
[QUOTE="killab2oo5"]What proves your point? And I haven't played Demigod myself, but the general feedback is good. It just has (or had) a lot of network issues which have been fixed.VandalvideoWhich ahve been fixed? HECK NO. I was trying to play the game today and I'm still having horrible latency issues. My point was that better games are less likely to be pirated. In a game which sells one million and has 500K pirates, that would be less pirated than a game which sells 50K and has 150K pirates. Whoops. Meant to say I HEARD (on system wars a few days ago) were fixed. Where are you getting your numbers claiming good games are not pirated as much? I can't find any stable statistics of piracy myself. My Google searches just keeps turning up how bad it is.
Not neccessarily. Thanks to the communal nature of this hypothetical society, people already have a high standard of living and are given more free range to express themselves intellectually to the collective, which prospers from the combined pool of knowledge readily disseminated to all the inhabitants of the society. In an attempt to provide their two cents, people would have the time and resources to give their own ideas to the collective. What I'm saying is that there are justifications for piracy out there, and to say that the act, prima facie, is illogical is quite wrong. That is the primary problem I had with your earlier post. There have also been surveys done by companies which showed a trend in pirates to have motivations beyond saving money. Video games would still exist, they would merely be communal property, created be the willing. Just like the mod community is now, people would offer the wisdom to everyone else to show them how awesome they are. This ethical system doesn't inherently lead to failure in and of itself. This is the system by which the mod community thrives upon.Vandalvideo
Perhaps you're right that a non-commercial videogame industry would not fail outright, but I would contend that it would most assuredly be less successful. I've concluded this for two reasons:
First, I posit that quality is directly proportional to motivation (at least in this discussion), which I think we can likely agree upon. This is to say, the more motivated someone is to do something, and to do it well, the more likely they will be to do it. This is completely reasonable, agreed?
Secondly, I think it's fair to say that both monetary success and communal recognition are a greater impetus than simply communal recognition. In our current capitalistic system, I can name dozens of game developers who have gained fame and respect simply from game development, yet strangely, I'm not convinced I can name a single modder (I once knew the name of the developer of Minerva, but no longer:(). Further, the developers who are payed for their services are not only recognized for how "awesome the are", but are also capable of support ting themselves through their development. I think it goes without saying that the professional developer has a stronger motivation to create a successful game, both commercially and critically.
But really, the proof is in the pudding. While I certainly have tremendous respect for modders, and their mods, commercial games have simply have greater scale, attention to detail, and overall quality (for the most part). This really shouldn't come as any surprise though, nor should the fact that a communally developed videogame industry would also be worse than a commercial one. If this is justification for the stealing of intellectual property, than I must say, I think it's flawed.
[QUOTE="killab2oo5"]What proves your point? And I haven't played Demigod myself, but the general feedback is good. It just has (or had) a lot of network issues which have been fixed.VandalvideoWhich ahve been fixed? HECK NO. I was trying to play the game today and I'm still having horrible latency issues. My point was that better games are less likely to be pirated. In a game which sells one million and has 500K pirates, that would be less pirated than a game which sells 50K and has 150K pirates. First of all you contradicted yourself by saying that better games get pirated less and second you shouldnt be pirating games period
First, I posit that quality is directly proportional to motivation (at least in this discussion), which I think we can likely agree upon. This is to say, the more motivated someone is to do something, and to do it well, the more likely they will be to do it. This is completely reasonable, agreed? Secondly, I think it's fair to say that both monetary success and communal recognition are a greater impetus than simply communal recognition.agentfredI'm going to primarily focus on these two points because these were the ones that caught my eyes first. One can say that motivation = quality, but look at what we've had this generation. Rehashes of games without any kind of great advances. New IPs degrading some of the best novels we've ever seen. Games being transfered to handhelds at alarming rates. Once great developers putting out crap. In contrast, the mod and indie communities have seen some of the best games we've ever seen, with little to no economic advantage for the people. I've had more fun with the communal gamse I've played this gen than any mainstream release. From this, I would contend that it doesn't follow that a communal system must inherently have a lower quality in games.
[QUOTE="Ek-Andy"]See those examples? All sold at value for value. You seem to be making the assumption that you can create games at a professional level without actually charging anything for them while not being able to buy sufficent materials because you arn't making any money, while at the same time maintaining another job (Ever heard of a professional baker/game developer? Guess why you havn't.). You might have had a point if those games were free, but they are not. Eventually they would need to get more than what they would get from a mod if they were planning to keep profesional game development sustainable. Your argument is actually getting more illogical.VandalvideoThose mods hadn't been sold after they were picked up by developers later on. The mods, in their original state, were never created for monetary purposes, or atleast overt monetary purposes. The mod community is communal in nature, and from that community great games come. You cannot necessarily say that we would stop having great games because game development would become communal. I personally would prefer more indie communal games than the large, overbearing peices of rehashed crap we have now where there isn't any originality and every new IP is a degradation of some great novel. A modder doesn't have to be professional to make great games or to sustain himself.
People are not pirating mods, in fact there are many hundreads more superior games developed at profesional level than there are at mod level. If people only want mods, "Under this ethical system", then why are they illegally downloading games developed at profesional level outside the mod community? Basically they are "under this ethical system" they are attempting to destroy the superior game development process in favour of a inefficent modding commity. They are forcing a downgrade to the most basic level of game development. That's destruction for the sake of greed. We might still get some great games occasionally under this new system, but time has proven that it would of far less frequency. To participate in piracy is to knowingly cause damage "under this ethical system". Mods/indie games don't charge value for their value, and the result of that is that these games are inferior. This ethtical system you describe is incredibly naive.
People are not pirating mods, in fact there are many hundreads more superior games developed at profesional level than there are at mod level. If people only want mods, "Under this ethical system", then why are they illegally downloading games developed at profesional level outside the mod community? Basically they are "under this ethical system" they are attempting to destroy the superior game development process in favour of a inefficent modding commity. They are forcing a downgrade to the most basic level of game development. That's destruction for the sake of greed. We might still get some great games occasionally under this new system, but time has proven that it would of far less frequency. To participate in piracy is to knowingly cause damage "under this ethical system". Mods/indie games don't charge value for their value, and the result of that is that these games are inferior. This ethtical system you describe is incredibly naive.Ek-AndyPeople aren't pirating mods because people are downloading and playing the mods to enjoy them at their own discretion. As far as the 'professional level' is concerned, the sorry state of the industry so far hasn't produced any breath taking games that greatly outdo the indie and communal games that we've seen this generation. Rehashes without any orginality, rip offs of former great novels, and all around lackluster performances from once great developing houses. This ethical system doesn't say that people only want mods. It is saying that people want games, and they don't want to be restricted by the copyrights that they disagree with .This ethical system has all games as communal property. I also disagree that communal games are a downgrade from anything we seen in mainstream gaming. You may get flashier cinematics, but there isn't anything inherently superior about these games. This isn't destruction, it is mutual prosperity for the whole, and a communal shift allowing for more mod centric games. These games would have originality, flair, and uniqueness that is largely absent from today's games. You have absolutely no evidence that great games would come less frequently. Your argument is riddle with assumptions you simple cannot prove.
From the information that has been presented in this thread. There is a positive ratio of pirates to buyers in games in the top ten pirated, while games like Demigod have a negative pirate to buyer ratio.VandalvideoCan you direct me to this information? And Demigod is considered a good game, almost great.
[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]From the information that has been presented in this thread. There is a positive ratio of pirates to buyers in games in the top ten pirated, while games like Demigod have a negative pirate to buyer ratio.killab2oo5Can you direct me to this information? And Demigod is considered a good game, almost great. Just scour the thread, where people have been reporting the number of people trying to access Demigod. Those pirates are disprportional, greatly, to the ammount who have purchased the game. And demigod, as I've already stated, is unbalanced, horribly laggy, overly long matchmaking, no story, and an all around bad game.
[QUOTE="Ek-Andy"]People are not pirating mods, in fact there are many hundreads more superior games developed at profesional level than there are at mod level. If people only want mods, "Under this ethical system", then why are they illegally downloading games developed at profesional level outside the mod community? Basically they are "under this ethical system" they are attempting to destroy the superior game development process in favour of a inefficent modding commity. They are forcing a downgrade to the most basic level of game development. That's destruction for the sake of greed. We might still get some great games occasionally under this new system, but time has proven that it would of far less frequency. To participate in piracy is to knowingly cause damage "under this ethical system". Mods/indie games don't charge value for their value, and the result of that is that these games are inferior. This ethtical system you describe is incredibly naive.VandalvideoPeople aren't pirating mods because people are downloading and playing the mods to enjoy them at their own discretion. As far as the 'professional level' is concerned, the sorry state of the industry so far hasn't produced any breath taking games that greatly outdo the indie and communal games that we've seen this generation. Rehashes without any orginality, rip offs of former great novels, and all around lackluster performances from once great developing houses. This ethical system doesn't say that people only want mods. It is saying that people want games, and they don't want to be restricted by the copyrights that they disagree with .This ethical system has all games as communal property. I also disagree that communal games are a downgrade from anything we seen in mainstream gaming. You may get flashier cinematics, but there isn't anything inherently superior about these games. This isn't destruction, it is mutual prosperity for the whole, and a communal shift allowing for more mod centric games. These games would have originality, flair, and uniqueness that is largely absent from today's games. You have absolutely no evidence that great games would come less frequently. Your argument is riddle with assumptions you simple cannot prove.
Ok, why don't you list all the best games produced at professional level.
Now list what games are produced at community level.
Now lets see, what list has the better games? Professional development. You would have to have some really strange tastes to say otherwise. I can't argue that because it's not really relevant, but really? All these community games stemmed from professionally developed games.
All your really throwing at me now is opinions. I'm not really intrested in debating over what's better, mod games or real games. If mod games are so much better, then why arn't the pirates playing those instead? Why do they insist that game developers should not trade value for value and are attemtping to remove their purpose as profesional developers agaisnt their will? Basically what you are saying is that under a bla bla bla (Sick of hearing it.) it would be acceptable to remove the purpose and importance of professional game development, stating that it will infact not affect the quality of games, despite the fact that no one is being paid for this work, the ehtical system of the illogical, a system that demands that those who can provide nothing have a right to something they do not deserve at the mercy of those who can provide. And since we are bringing opinions in to this, that's basically communism, which has been proven to have failed on many occasions. Your argument is riddled with illogical assumptions that can be easily disproved. That people are happy to give something for nothing for the sake of being happy, with no intent on getting something for that something at a future date. All you have done by saying this is stated that a profession that leads to the production of goods (Video games) is entirely useless and should be offered at the good will of that developer. Why don't you apply this theory to any other profession like music, films, bakers. It will never work, it's illogical and reamins illogical.
Ok, why don't you list all the best games produced at professional level.Now list what games are produced at community level.Now lets see, what list has the better games? Professional development. You would have to have some really strange tastes to say otherwise. I can't argue that because it's not really relevant, but really? All these community games stemmed from professionally developed games.All your really throwing at me now is opinions. I'm not really intrested in debating over what's better, mod games or real games. If mod games are so much better, then why arn't the pirates playing those instead? Why do they insist that game developers should not trade value for value and are attemtping to remove their purpose as profesional developers agaisnt their will? Basically what you are saying is that under a bla bla bla (Sick of hearing it.) it would be acceptable to remove the purpose and importance of professional game development, stating that it will infact not affect the quality of games, despite the fact that no one is being paid for this work, the ehtical system of the illogical, a system that demands that those who can provide nothing have a right to something they do not deserve at the mercy of those who can provide. And since we are bringing opinions in to this, that's basically communism, which has been proven to have failed on many occasions. Your argument is riddled with illogical assumptions that can be easily disprovedEk-AndyIn your opinion, profressionally developed games are the best. In all actuality, our mainstream market has been super saturated with unoriginal titles ripping off novels, tired franchises, developers getting long in the tooth, and an overall sorry state of the industry. I mean, this is the nature of the current mainstream gaming market. It isn't simply a matter of opinion. We are currently in trouble. It isn't necessarily the case that mainstream games are any better than indie and communal games at this point in time. As has clearly been presented, communal modding can produce great games, and an even more diverse group of modders would only expedite that process. There is no reason to believe that great games would come any less frequently if professional developers turned to leisure modding. You don't have any type of evidence to back up such a claim. The fact of the matter is simple, you have no, in any way, refuted the ethical system without bringing in your own beliefs and your own ideas about video games. You have supplied no evidence that proessional game developers wouldn't be able to make great titles, and we would generally lose out on other great titles. You have not shown that this ethical system is illogical, and if anything the mod community show just how easily it could work. And besides, all of the examples of communism failed because they weren't really communism. They were despotism that ignored Marxist-Leninist philosophy. Yugoslavia, the only true communist country, prospered until Tito passed away. PS: This is more socialism.
Just scour the thread, where people have been reporting the number of people trying to access Demigod. Those pirates are disprportional, greatly, to the ammount who have purchased the game. And demigod, as I've already stated, is unbalanced, horribly laggy, overly long matchmaking, no story, and an all around bad game.Vandalvideo:? I scanned through each page, and saw no links. Was it all just fellow System Wars posters speculating? We have no way of telling how the proportions of piracy is for good and bad games unless your gonna go to every torrent site, PC iso site...etc. and count the previous and current pirates.
What we do have to go by on the current position of piracy if the developers words, and I'm sure you've heard it all.
[QUOTE="Ek-Andy"]Ok, why don't you list all the best games produced at professional level.Now list what games are produced at community level.Now lets see, what list has the better games? Professional development. You would have to have some really strange tastes to say otherwise. I can't argue that because it's not really relevant, but really? All these community games stemmed from professionally developed games.All your really throwing at me now is opinions. I'm not really intrested in debating over what's better, mod games or real games. If mod games are so much better, then why arn't the pirates playing those instead? Why do they insist that game developers should not trade value for value and are attemtping to remove their purpose as profesional developers agaisnt their will? Basically what you are saying is that under a bla bla bla (Sick of hearing it.) it would be acceptable to remove the purpose and importance of professional game development, stating that it will infact not affect the quality of games, despite the fact that no one is being paid for this work, the ehtical system of the illogical, a system that demands that those who can provide nothing have a right to something they do not deserve at the mercy of those who can provide. And since we are bringing opinions in to this, that's basically communism, which has been proven to have failed on many occasions. Your argument is riddled with illogical assumptions that can be easily disprovedVandalvideoIn your opinion, profressionally developed games are the best. In all actuality, our mainstream market has been super saturated with unoriginal titles ripping off novels, tired franchises, developers getting long in the tooth, and an overall sorry state of the industry. I mean, this is the nature of the current mainstream gaming market. It isn't simply a matter of opinion. We are currently in trouble. It isn't necessarily the case that mainstream games are any better than indie and communal games at this point in time. As has clearly been presented, communal modding can produce great games, and an even more diverse group of modders would only expedite that process. There is no reason to believe that great games would come any less frequently if professional developers turned to leisure modding. You don't have any type of evidence to back up such a claim. The fact of the matter is simple, you have no, in any way, refuted the ethical system without bringing in your own beliefs and your own ideas about video games. You have supplied no evidence that proessional game developers wouldn't be able to make great titles, and we would generally lose out on other great titles. You have not shown that this ethical system is illogical, and if anything the mod community show just how easily it could work. And besides, all of the examples of communism failed because they weren't really communism. They were despotism that ignored Marxist-Leninist philosophy. Yugoslavia, the only true communist country, prospered until Tito passed away. PS: This is more socialism. I think you are angry that you bought a game and it ruined your experience, and basing off your anger you think it should be right to pirate "crappy" games.
:? I scanned through each page, and saw no links. Was it all just fellow System Wars posters speculating? We have no way of telling how the proportions of piracy is for good and bad games unless your gonna go to every torrent site, PC iso site...etc. and count the previous and current pirates.[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Just scour the thread, where people have been reporting the number of people trying to access Demigod. Those pirates are disprportional, greatly, to the ammount who have purchased the game. And demigod, as I've already stated, is unbalanced, horribly laggy, overly long matchmaking, no story, and an all around bad game.killab2oo5
What we do have to go by on the current position of piracy if the developers words, and I'm sure you've heard it all.
There was a link earlier in the thread which clearly showed the ammount of gamers that pirated Crysis, which was below the total number of unique units sold. In contrast, it has been reported by Stardock that 150K people have tried to play online, and far less than that have actually purchased the game. A negative ratio is much lower than a positive ratio.There was a link earlier in the thread which clearly showed the ammount of gamers that pirated Crysis, which was below the total number of unique units sold. In contrast, it has been reported by Stardock that 150K people have tried to play online, and far less than that have actually purchased the game. A negative ratio is much lower than a positive ratio.VandalvideoI saw no such link, and using 1 game for your statement that bad games are pirated worse than good one isn't a very accurate representation of anything, and again.
Demigod is NOT a bad game. A 6.5 on GS which is considered fair, a 7.7 average critic review which is consider good...nearly great, and a 7.7 average user review for the game is not bad.
I saw no such link, and using 1 game for your statement that bad games are pirated worse than good one isn't a very accurate representation of anything, and again.[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]There was a link earlier in the thread which clearly showed the ammount of gamers that pirated Crysis, which was below the total number of unique units sold. In contrast, it has been reported by Stardock that 150K people have tried to play online, and far less than that have actually purchased the game. A negative ratio is much lower than a positive ratio.killab2oo5
Demigod is NOT a bad game. A 6.5 on GS which is considered fair, a 7.7 average critic review which is consider good...nearly great, and a 7.7 average user review for the game is not bad.
I said, "Good games are less likely to be pirated". That deals explicitly with ratios of the populous who engaged in the act as opposed to those that actually buy the game. People were more prone to pirate Demigod, a relatively worse game. And again, Demigod is a terrible game. The horrible matchmaking, the inbalanced gameplay, the lack of story, no regionalization, and laggy gameplay are horrible.[QUOTE="Ek-Andy"]Ok, why don't you list all the best games produced at professional level.Now list what games are produced at community level.Now lets see, what list has the better games? Professional development. You would have to have some really strange tastes to say otherwise. I can't argue that because it's not really relevant, but really? All these community games stemmed from professionally developed games.All your really throwing at me now is opinions. I'm not really intrested in debating over what's better, mod games or real games. If mod games are so much better, then why arn't the pirates playing those instead? Why do they insist that game developers should not trade value for value and are attemtping to remove their purpose as profesional developers agaisnt their will? Basically what you are saying is that under a bla bla bla (Sick of hearing it.) it would be acceptable to remove the purpose and importance of professional game development, stating that it will infact not affect the quality of games, despite the fact that no one is being paid for this work, the ehtical system of the illogical, a system that demands that those who can provide nothing have a right to something they do not deserve at the mercy of those who can provide. And since we are bringing opinions in to this, that's basically communism, which has been proven to have failed on many occasions. Your argument is riddled with illogical assumptions that can be easily disprovedVandalvideoIn your opinion, profressionally developed games are the best. In all actuality, our mainstream market has been super saturated with unoriginal titles ripping off novels, tired franchises, developers getting long in the tooth, and an overall sorry state of the industry. I mean, this is the nature of the current mainstream gaming market. It isn't simply a matter of opinion. We are currently in trouble. It isn't necessarily the case that mainstream games are any better than indie and communal games at this point in time. As has clearly been presented, communal modding can produce great games, and an even more diverse group of modders would only expedite that process. There is no reason to believe that great games would come any less frequently if professional developers turned to leisure modding. You don't have any type of evidence to back up such a claim. The fact of the matter is simple, you have no, in any way, refuted the ethical system without bringing in your own beliefs and your own ideas about video games. You have supplied no evidence that proessional game developers wouldn't be able to make great titles, and we would generally lose out on other great titles. You have not shown that this ethical system is illogical, and if anything the mod community show just how easily it could work. And besides, all of the examples of communism failed because they weren't really communism. They were despotism that ignored Marxist-Leninist philosophy. Yugoslavia, the only true communist country, prospered until Tito passed away. PS: This is more socialism.
Opinion, opinion, opinion. I said I wasn't intrested. Apparently you think your opinion fact.
There is your reason, it's quite simple actually, modders produce great games at a slower pace than professional game developers. There is your evidence.
I have refuted yout ethical system many times already using logic, because quite simply when you collect the evidence, put it together, it's not going to work. The naive belief that professional games take the same time to develop as mods quite simply outrageous, were talking 6 months to 3 years here. The belief that developers wont turn to a more protiable profession after their industry is turned into useless waste of time is also incredibly naive, because as human beings we need supplies to survive which we recieve from our profession. Modding dosn't fill the bread bin. And finally the belief that people deserve a dispraportionate amount to what they actually trade is, ugh....
And I'm sure communism works just fine (not), but to be quite frankly honest, it hasn't worked so far. Whatever you want to call your system, it wont work regardless.
Opinion, opinion, opinion. I said I wasn't intrested. Apparently you think your opinion fact.There is your reason, it's quite simple actually, modders produce great games at a slower pace than professional game developers. There is your evidence.I have refuted yout ethical system many times already using logic, because quite simply when you collect the evidence, put it together, it's not going to work. The naive belief that professional games take the same time to develop as mods quite simply outrageous, were talking 6 months to 3 years here. The belief that developers wont turn to a more protiable profession after their industry is turned into useless waste of time is also incredibly naive, because as human beings we need supplies to survive which we recieve from our profession. Modding dosn't fill the bread bin. And finally the belief that people deserve a dispraportionate amount to what they actually trade is, ugh....And I'm sure communism works just fine (not), but to be quite frankly honest, it hasn't worked so far. Whatever you want to call your system, it wont work regardless.Ek-AndyOpinion, opinion, opinion. I said I wasn't interested. Apparently you think your opinion is fact. Listen, what I'm doing is showing that your statements aren't sufficient or even necessary of the things you're preaching for. You have not supplied any type of evidence that we would get less good games, that good games would come less frequently, or that people would become less prone to make good games. As I have illustrated there are mitigating examples of good games coming out of communal atmospheres. These counter examples clearly illustrate that what you're espousing is not true. It is not facts. It is merely your attempt to justify your opinion. It does not follow that anything you said is necessary. Besides, with more people entering into the modder market it would expedite the process and increase productivity. With it would come the tools to produce more games at a quicker pace. You're working under far too many assumptions. You have no proof that these developers would not continue on creating games in their leisure time, games that are great. And again, all examples of communism that failed weren't really communism. The one true communist country, Yugoslavia prospered greatly under Tito. And besides, this is socialism.
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