New Leak/Rumor: Xbox 720 beta kit contains two APUs

2 APUs is Microsoft's version on The Cell!

StrongBlackVine

Ron is like SW's fact checker haha

tormentos is still damage controlling the PS4's weak ass hardware? :lol:

still dont understand MS's decision to use DDR3 RAM as opposed to GDDR5 RAM. MS after all used a unified pool of GDDR3 RAM back in 2005 with the Xbox 360, the next logical step would have been to opt for GDDR5 RAM for the Xbox 720, look at what Sony have done. Sony have learned from their mistakes, Microsoft seem to be creating new ones.

still dont understand MS's decision to use DDR3 RAM as opposed to GDDR5 RAM. MS after all used a unified pool of GDDR3 RAM back in 2005 with the Xbox 360, the next logical step would have been to opt for GDDR5 RAM for the Xbox 720, look at what Sony have done. Sony have learned from their mistakes, Microsoft seem to be creating new ones.

CwlHeddwyn

[QUOTE="StrongBlackVine"]

2 APUs is Microsoft's version on The Cell!

ronvalencia

[QUOTE="tormentos"][QUOTE="delta3074"]which is based on rumours, nbody knows what RAM the 720 will have yet, RAM is soething you can change at the last minute,I Expect MS to counter what SONY is doing with the Ps4 on that level. I still expect the Ps4 to be more powerful, and i have already made up my mind to get a Ps4,just saying that we should avoid making concrete statements about the 360 until we see an official announceronvalencia

AMD Cape Verde's memory controller supports both DDR3 (e.g. Radeon HD 7730M) and GDDR5 (e.g. Radeon HD 7750) memory types. AMD Kaveri APU also similar memory type support.

Note that GDDR5 is based on DDR3.

[QUOTE="tormentos"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"]Xbox 720's DDR3 is based on rumours.

"Malta" 7990 requires two 8 pin PCI-E power connectors and there's no possibility for 1st generation Xbox 360's PSU to power it (i.e. 245 watts of continuous power with 280 watts peak power).

ronvalencia

You assumed that GCN has a split DDR3 and GDDR5 memory controller designs i.e. 7730M and 7750M uses the same ASIC design.

The designs for both DDR3 and GDDR5 for GCNs has been completed since last year.

[QUOTE="tormentos"][QUOTE="04dcarraher"] :lol: never said anything about the xbox 720, all we know is rumors,  totally flew over your headabout the possibility.04dcarraher

[QUOTE="tormentos"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"] AMD Cape Verde supports both DDR3 (e.g. Radeon HD 7730M) and GDDR5 (e.g. Radeon HD 7750) memory types. Note that GDDR5 is based on DDR3. ronvalencia

The board wouldn't be the problem since the designs for both DDR3 and GDDR5 traces already exist with existing products.

If you look at Wii U's PCB, you can see AMD's typical GPU memory trace design.

This is "copy and paste" level engineering i.e. "semi-custom" job.

GDDR5 will be further mass produced as part of PC's SODIMM standard.

Xbox 360 Slim with AMD's typical GPU memory trace design.

Radeon HD 6670 with AMD's typical GPU memory trace design layout.AMD is pretty consistent when it comes to "cut-and-paste" memory trace designs.

Ron is like SW's fact checker haha

NFJSupreme

Yeh , well keep babbling Tormatos but once I have my 720 I am going to release one of those Apu´s and send it after you and you will be running even faster that if it was a Girl straight back to deep Nerdistan .

[QUOTE="NFJSupreme"]

Ron is like SW's fact checker haha

tormentos

Got to be the only time I agree with you.

[QUOTE="ChubbyGuy40"]

Two APUs for twice the suckage.

Wickerman777

It could just be a gag or even an inaccurate rumor but IF 2 of those 1.2 tflop GPUs does end up in Nextbox then that changes everything. Durango would instantly go from quite a bit weaker than PS4 to quite a bit more powerful than it is.

[QUOTE="hexashadow13"]That doesn't actually make any sense. The point of APUs is to have everything connected. If you have two APUs... how would that even work? Would one be for low power and one for high power? Would they both work at the same time? If so... which APU would do what? That sounds annoyingly complicated to develop for, as well as a gigantic waste of money as opposed to just having a more powerful single APU. :/ShadowriverUB

[QUOTE="Wickerman777"]

Lol, so do you think it would just sit in there and keep the other one company? Not saying there is going to be a second APU but if there was it would certainly make a difference. I remember a couple months ago digital foundry saying it wasn't possible to put 8 gigs of GDDR5 RAM in a console but tada, that's gonna happen. What can or can't work in a PC doesn't necassarily apply to console design because you can customize to no end.

Wasdie

You should look into the 2 CPU solution the Sega Saturn had. Devs hated that thing as it was practically impossible to use correctly.

You cannot just break up your game into hundreds of little pieces and process it at once. Too many issues with latency and communicating between the two processors. It's hard to explain to somebody who has obviously no knowledge of processing on a hardware level. 

Processing hardware and the limitations of the hardware exist in all configurations. By changing the architecture you can eliminate bottlenecks, but you cannot rewrite the laws of physics. 

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="StrongBlackVine"]

2 APUs is Microsoft's version on The Cell!

savagetwinkie

Xbox 360's eDRAM chip includes GPU's backend fix function units e.g. ROP units, MSAA and 192 pixel processors. http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/4/4

The primary chip contains GPU's frontend fix function units and the main shader/stream processors. The Xenos is not based on PC's Radeon X1800/X1900.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="tormentos"] And that mean sh** since is not a problem of the card or GPU supporting GDDR5 and DDR3,the problem lies on the board the 720 has inside which already has a design,changing from DDR3 to GDDR5 would imply.. A design change of the board. Better cooling. Elimination of components like ESRAM since they would be a bottle neck with GDDR5 in place. And even probably an exterior design.tormentos

The board wouldn't be the problem since the designs for both DDR3 and GDDR5 traces already exist with existing products.

If you look at Wii U's PCB, you can see AMD's typical GPU memory trace design.

This is "copy and paste" level engineering i.e. "semi-custom" job.

GDDR5 will be further mass produced as part of PC's SODIMM standard.

Xbox 360 Slim with AMD's typical GPU memory trace design.

Radeon HD 6670 with AMD's typical GPU memory trace design layout.AMD is pretty consistent when it comes to "cut-and-paste" memory trace designs.

Please provide the confirmation. Microsoft has multiple Xbox Next plans e.g Yukon is known to be a dual IGP setup i.e. one at 1Ghz and the other at 500 MHz.

[QUOTE="ShadowriverUB"][QUOTE="hexashadow13"]That doesn't actually make any sense. The point of APUs is to have everything connected. If you have two APUs... how would that even work? Would one be for low power and one for high power? Would they both work at the same time? If so... which APU would do what? That sounds annoyingly complicated to develop for, as well as a gigantic waste of money as opposed to just having a more powerful single APU. :/Shielder7

Two APUs on a chip package with quad-core Jaguar + Radeon HD 7750 (8 CU) type GCN would be similar to PS4's compute power. Having two APUs doesn't automatically mean it would beat PS4.

PS4's APU glues two sets quad core AMD Jaguars and linked to GCN with 18 CUs.

[QUOTE="NFJSupreme"]

Ron is like SW's fact checker haha

tormentos

Again, there nothing of substance with your post. You are converting this topic into fanboys wars.

My views on PS3 haven't changed since 2006's NVIDIA G80.

[QUOTE="tormentos"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

The board wouldn't be the problem since the designs for both DDR3 and GDDR5 traces already exist with existing products.

If you look at Wii U's PCB, you can see AMD's typical GPU memory trace design.

This is "copy and paste" level engineering i.e. "semi-custom" job.

GDDR5 will be further mass produced as part of PC's SODIMM standard.

Xbox 360 Slim with AMD's typical GPU memory trace design.

Radeon HD 6670 with AMD's typical GPU memory trace design layout.AMD is pretty consistent when it comes to "cut-and-paste" memory trace designs.

ShadowriverUB

AMD provides reference PCB designs. http://www10.edacafe.com/nbc/articles/view_article.php?articleid=235634&section=CorpNews

Microprocessors, and their associated chipsets, continue to increase in density, speed and pin count. This makes it increasingly difficult for PCB designers to meet interconnect timing and signal integrity constraint challenges while placing and routing these complex microprocessor components on the board. To facilitate design-in of AMD64 microprocessors, AMD provides its customers with core layout designs for each processor. These reference designs include not only the processor but also memory interfaces, HyperTransport(TM) technology, power distribution and terminations.

The above pictures shows similar PCB design patterns for AMD GPU based devices.

still dont understand MS's decision to use DDR3 RAM as opposed to GDDR5 RAM. MS after all used a unified pool of GDDR3 RAM back in 2005 with the Xbox 360, the next logical step would have been to opt for GDDR5 RAM for the Xbox 720, look at what Sony have done. Sony have learned from their mistakes, Microsoft seem to be creating new ones.

CwlHeddwyn

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="tormentos"] And that mean sh** since is not a problem of the card or GPU supporting GDDR5 and DDR3,the problem lies on the board the 720 has inside which already has a design,changing from DDR3 to GDDR5 would imply.. A design change of the board. Better cooling. Elimination of components like ESRAM since they would be a bottle neck with GDDR5 in place. And even probably an exterior design.tormentos

The board wouldn't be the problem since the designs for both DDR3 and GDDR5 traces already exist with existing products.

If you look at Wii U's PCB, you can see AMD's typical GPU memory trace design.

This is "copy and paste" level engineering i.e. "semi-custom" job.

GDDR5 will be further mass produced as part of PC's SODIMM standard.

Xbox 360 Slim with AMD's typical GPU memory trace design.

Radeon HD 6670 with AMD's typical GPU memory trace design layout.AMD is pretty consistent when it comes to "cut-and-paste" memory trace designs.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"] There's no confirmation with the GDDR3/DDR3 plan. tormentos

Again, please provide the confirmation.

I guessed PS4's 78x0 level GCN based on RSX's TDP and combining trace lines from XDR's 72 bit and GDDR3's 128 bit (i.e. PCB cost remains mostly constant).

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"] Again, please provide the confirmation.

I guessed PS4's 78x0 level GCN based on RSX's TDP and combining trace lines from XDR's 72 bit and GDDR3's 128 bit (i.e. PCB cost remains mostly constant).

tormentos

Q: "what does the 78XX has to do with the RSX?"

A: TDP levels, die size

"Stop making stupid claims"

Don't participate in this speculative topic.

Changing memory is not as simple as adding more

It's simple if one follows AMD's memory trace reference designs for both DDR3 and GDDR5. Between memory controllers and memory modules, AMD already has" copy-and-paste" reference designs for DDR3 and GDDR5 memory types. Again, you are too stupid to notice that the above pictures follows AMD's memory trace pattern designs.

Switching between DDR3 and GDDR5 for GPUs is not a big issue in the PC world i.e. DELL/HP has launched 7730M(DDR3 version)/7750M(GDDR5 version) at similar time period.

You can have small companies like Xi3 pumping out custom motherboards (which uses the AMD's reference design blocks) that matches any other motherboards' performance.

PS; NVIDIA also has PCB reference design offerings.

[QUOTE="ShadowriverUB"] Actually memory application circuitry is something that is designed together with memory controller in APU and memory chips it self.... and pracicly applies to any integrated circuit, so it's just matter of layouting and testingtormentos

Stop making stupid generalisations.

"GDDR5M" has lower power consumption than DDR3 (not referring to DDR3L) or desktop GDDR5.

As with any chips, memory chip's power consumption depandant on it's process tech and it's manufacturing yield quality(i.e. this influences the electrical leakage characteristics).

I guessed PS4's 78x0 level GCN based on RSX's TDP and combining trace lines from XDR's 72 bit and GDDR3's 128 bit (i.e. PCB cost remains mostly constant).

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="tormentos"] A rumor not something assume by you which is different. You quoted a page which is nothing related to the 720.tormentos

You assumed that GCN has a split DDR3 and GDDR5 memory controller designs i.e. 7730M and 7750M uses the same ASIC design.

The designs for both DDR3 and GDDR5 for GCNs has been completed since last year.

TL: DR wasn't PS4 news, didn't bother!  PS4 will have 1 APU and still do laps around microsoft

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="tormentos"] No i did not, you did, i never mention even that, you are the king of replaying to things never argue. The GPU supporting DDR3 and GDDR5 in nothing change the fact that to use GDDR5 on 720 the console board has to be redesign,better cooling has to be implemented,and probably even an exterior design,is not about the memory controller DDR3 and GDDR5 are not compatible,and you can't just slap GDDR5 into DDR3 board.tormentos

Notice vgleaks.com

vgleaks.com's "768 threads" for GCN is LOL. Radeon X1900 (R580) has 512 threads over it's 48 pixel shaders. These stupid console clowns/"johnny come lately" don't know anything about PC hardware. I could nick pick and show how stupid they(vgleaks.com) are.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="tormentos"] No i did not, you did, i never mention even that, you are the king of replaying to things never argue. The GPU supporting DDR3 and GDDR5 in nothing change the fact that to use GDDR5 on 720 the console board has to be redesign,better cooling has to be implemented,and probably even an exterior design,is not about the memory controller DDR3 and GDDR5 are not compatible,and you can't just slap GDDR5 into DDR3 board.tormentos

From http://www.vgleaks.com/playstation-4-architecture-evolution-over-time/

Their CPU bus to memory with <20 GB/s is a LOL material. GDDR5 didn't boost CPU's bandwidth access beyond their DDR3 counterparts. Note that Intel Core i7-3770 was benchmarked past 20 GB/s.

Vgleaks' Onion links is no better than AMD Llano's 10 GB/s Onion links.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]Notice vgleaks.com

vgleaks.com's "768 threads" for GCN is LOL. Radeon X1900 (R580) has 512 threads over it's 48 pixel shaders. These stupid console clowns/"johnny come lately" don't know anything about PC hardware. I could nick pick and show how stupid they(vgleaks.com) are.

tormentos

From http://www.vgleaks.com/playstation-4-architecture-evolution-over-time/

GDDR5 didn't boost CPU's memory bandwidth i.e. < 20 GB/s.

Most of the GDDR5 bandwidth is for the GPU i.e. not much different to the current AMD CPU + 7850 OC/7870 combo.

When has bandwidth ever been a issue really? It's overhyped just like omg that cpu will bottleneck that card.Consolessuck187

7750 DDR3 1600 MHz is 35% slower than 7750 GDDR5 http://ht4u.net/reviews/2012/msi_radeon_hd_7750_2gb_ddr3_test/index36.php

Then the difference will be 1% improvement lol Consolessuck187

From http://www.hardware.fr/focus/76/amd-radeon-hd-7750-ddr3-test-cape-verde-etouffe.html

GDDR5 1125 MHz (4500Mhz effective) vs DDR3 800 MHz (1600Mhz effective)

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="Consolessuck187"]craptastic comparisonConsolessuck187

GDDR5's latency example https://www.skhynix.com/products/graphics/view.jsp?info.ramKind=26&info.serialNo=H5GQ2H24AFR

Programmable CAS latency: 5 to 20 tCK

Programmable WRITE latency: 1 to 7 tCK

DDR3's latency example http://download.micron.com/pdf/datasheets/dram/ddr3/1Gb_DDR3_SDRAM.pdf

CAS READ latency (CL): 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, or 11

CAS WRITE latency (CWL): 5, 6, 7, 8, based on tCK

------------------

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34710477&postcount=28

Memory latency is most appropriately measured in nanoseconds. In terms of nanosecond latency, DDR3 and GDDR5 are very similar. Someone already posted a link that says that GDDR5 has programmable CAS latency (from 5 to 20 cycles), which if you take the increased clockspeed of GDDR5 into account, means that the latency in terms of nanoseconds is very similar to DDR3.

GDDR5's architecture is different from typical DDR3 in only a few important performance-oriented ways: * More banks (16 in GDDR5 versus 8 [typical] in DDR3, this is actually a latency-*reducing* feature). * More data pins per GDDR5 device (32 in GDDR5 versus [typicall] 8 or [very rarely] 16 in DDR3). This makes it so you can get all of the data for a cache line (or whatever granularity of access you're talking about), in a reasonable number of cycles from a single chip. In DDR3, all 8 chips in a rank work together to provide 64 bits per transfer of a cache line (8 bits per transfer each). This width, plus the very high clockspeed of GDDR5 has the net effect of data transfer taking *less time* with GDDR5 compared to DDR3, but data transfer is never the latency bottleneck in a DRAM system, so this part isn't very important. Suffice it to say, this does not have any negative impact on GDDR5 latency. * Obviously also very high clockspeeds and data transfer speeds.

As a source, other than the link provided earlier in the page, I myself researched DRAM for a couple years, and my lab mate just finished the GDDR5 version of his DRAM simulator, with all the industry-correct timing parameters involved, and according to him they have the almost identical latency.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="Consolessuck187"]Then the difference will be 1% improvement lol Consolessuck187

From http://www.hardware.fr/focus/76/amd-radeon-hd-7750-ddr3-test-cape-verde-etouffe.html

GDDR5 1125 MHz (4500Mhz effective) vs DDR3 800 MHz (1600Mhz effective)

No GPU vendor made 7970 or 680 with DDR3. GDDR5's other real performance edge is multiple read and write request from many core processors.

PS; I overclock my 5730M's DDR3 (1Ghz from 800Mhz) to 5770M or 6570M's GDDR5 clockspeed and it wasn't able to match it.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="Consolessuck187"] lol the only thing giving gddr5 real performance edge is higher clock. Clock them both to same spec and see difference aint shit Consolessuck187

No GPU vendor made 7970 or 680 with DDR3. GDDR5's other real performance edge is multiple read and write request from many core processors.

PS; I overclocked my 5730M's DDR3 (to 1Ghz) to 5770M or 6570M's GDDR5 clock speed and it wasn't able to match it.

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="Consolessuck187"] That's because gddr5 is newer. duh Consolessuck187

There are other bottlenecks besides memory i.e. ROP and TMUs.

GTX 280 has 512-bit memory bus with 141.7GB/s . 512bit PCB is expensive.

[QUOTE="tormentos"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"] Again, please provide the confirmation.

I guessed PS4's 78x0 level GCN based on RSX's TDP and combining trace lines from XDR's 72 bit and GDDR3's 128 bit (i.e. PCB cost remains mostly constant).

ronvalencia

Q: "what does the 78XX has to do with the RSX?"

A: TDP levels, die size

"Stop making stupid claims"

Don't participate in this speculative topic.

Changing memory is not as simple as adding more

It's simple if one follows AMD's memory trace reference designs for both DDR3 and GDDR5. Between memory controllers and memory modules, AMD already has" copy-and-paste" reference designs for DDR3 and GDDR5 memory types. Again, you are too stupid to notice that the above pictures follows AMD's memory trace pattern designs.

Switching between DDR3 and GDDR5 for GPUs is not a big issue in the PC world i.e. DELL/HP has launched 7730M(DDR3 version)/7750M(GDDR5 version) at similar time period.

You can have small companies like Xi3 pumping out custom motherboards (which uses the AMD's reference design blocks) that matches any other motherboards' performance.

PS; NVIDIA also has PCB reference design offerings.

people assume because xbox720 might have gddr3 it's automatically not as powerful as ps4 because zomg no gddr5. lol afraid it's more to it than that.Consolessuck187

I discounted 512bit DDR3 due to PCB cost, but 128bit DDR3 on-board the chip package + 256bit on PCB could be feasible.

Wide IO/ Stacked DDR3 the potential to rival PCB GDDR5.

Stop making stupid generalisations.

"GDDR5M" has lower power consumption than DDR3 (not referring to DDR3L) or desktop GDDR5.

As with any chips, memory chip's power consumption depandant on it's process tech and it's manufacturing yield quality(i.e. this influences the electrical leakage characteristics).

ronvalencia

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"][QUOTE="Consolessuck187"]people assume because xbox720 might have gddr3 it's automatically not as powerful as ps4 because zomg no gddr5. lol afraid it's more to it than that.Consolessuck187

With AMD GCNs, ROP unit count is usually related to memory controller unit count i.e.

128bit bus = 4 32bit GDDR5 memory controllers = 16 ROPs,

256 bit bus = 8 32bit GDDR5 memory controllers = 32 ROPs,

7790 changed it's TMU + CU count hence the increase in performance.

Only AMD Tahiti has decoupled it's memory controller count from the ROP unit count.

[QUOTE="tormentos"][QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

You assumed that GCN has a split DDR3 and GDDR5 memory controller designs i.e. 7730M and 7750M uses the same ASIC design.

The designs for both DDR3 and GDDR5 for GCNs has been completed since last year.

ronvalencia

Tormentos has got some major damage control going on.clyde46

[QUOTE="clyde46"]Tormentos has got some major damage control going on.Bruce_Benzing