Nintendo doesn't deserve it's sucess

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

Nintendo did not risk as much as either Sony or MS, so the argument that "they risked everything, and deserve their success" is pretty much bull. They risked the least.

Ponmop

Ok, I'll buy that, but wouldn't that mean PS2 took the least risks last gen as it was less powerful than the xbox or gc? Did you see Sony's victory last gen as somehow less legitimate because they weren't pushing the technical limits.

Power doesn't necessarily imply higher R&D cost. However, using last gen hardware does imply lower R&D cost. I don't know the PS2, XBOX, or Cube R&D cost so I can't compare them. I do know that Ninty's decision to use last gen hardware on the Wii was an attempt to minimize potential loss, an action not taken by either MS or Sony this gen.

I would probably then go on to say that in a market essentially based on advancement, Ninty is doing us a disservice. In this way, they're sort of like companies who make knock-off Nike shoes. Those companies will never contribute on their own to the industry, they'll simply feed off the efforts of others by marketing to a "niche" within the industry. Similarly, Sony, MS, and many other companies (even Ninty at one time)have spent boatloads making the game industry popular by constantly advancing. Ninty uses this popularity to field a consolethat costs very little to produce, and does very little to advance theindustry technically.Sony and MS will have little incentive to continue bringing us something new and cutting edge after everyone flocks to last gen hardware in a pretty case.

Anyway, you'll have to remember that I didn't make the opening statement here, Tacojelly did. I was discounting his claim, not making my own. I don't think you can say that Ninty success is deserved because they risked "everything". I would not have brought up risk in terms of deserving success at all had Tacojelly not made that statement.

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"][QUOTE="---OkeyDokey---"]

MX5>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MRS deal with it. your puny toyota from 1999makes me laugh.

---OkeyDokey---

What is your deal really? Are you still upset about losing the argument earlier? Get over it.

I don't know what about 2004 = 1999, but if we're playing the year of origin game, the first Miata showed up in 1990, so not only is it slower, or more homosexually stereotyped, it's older. At least you could've showed me an S2000... I guess it doesn't matter, your car is much cooler than any of them I'm sure.

i wasn't even arguing earlier :|

anyone who knows anything about cars knows that the mazda has been at the top of its class since it was first released. the model i showed was the brand new one from 2006. your model MRS has been around since 1999 and is severely outdated. you wanna know why its rarer? cuz no one buys them :lol:

the honda S2000 is much more expensive, hence why I didn't mention it. your obviously a "casual" when it comes to cars, and since the mazda isn't your cup of tea, this carseems more to your liking....

Yes, my MR-S with a 2zz engine swap and a gt28rs turbo setup really makes me a "car casual". You're dead on.

And your bringing up the Miatas sales lets us bring this discussion around to the Wii. See, you infer that more sales equals a better car. This simply isn't the case. There are many other reasons why something sells well. By your reasoning, we'd have to assume Wii is technically a better console than the PS3. Of course, that isn't true, much like saying the Miata is better than the MR-2

...not to mention that Toyota only shipped 23,000 MR-S's to America over the span of 6 years. The reason they sold less than Miata's is because there weren't as many for sale. Oh, and check the price of the retractable hardtop Miata before saying that the S2000 is out of it's price range.

Wow this post is bad. Im sorry so much fanboyism makes me sick. Also you called NIntendo penniless. LMAO thats enough to show you dont know what the hell your talkin about.GraveRIP

QFT NOW LOCK

[QUOTE="---OkeyDokey---"][QUOTE="whoisryanmack"][QUOTE="---OkeyDokey---"]

MX5>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MRS deal with it. your puny toyota from 1999makes me laugh.

whoisryanmack

What is your deal really? Are you still upset about losing the argument earlier? Get over it.

I don't know what about 2004 = 1999, but if we're playing the year of origin game, the first Miata showed up in 1990, so not only is it slower, or more homosexually stereotyped, it's older. At least you could've showed me an S2000... I guess it doesn't matter, your car is much cooler than any of them I'm sure.

i wasn't even arguing earlier :|

anyone who knows anything about cars knows that the mazda has been at the top of its class since it was first released. the model i showed was the brand new one from 2006. your model MRS has been around since 1999 and is severely outdated. you wanna know why its rarer? cuz no one buys them :lol:

the honda S2000 is much more expensive, hence why I didn't mention it. your obviously a "casual" when it comes to cars, and since the mazda isn't your cup of tea, this carseems more to your liking....

Yes, my MR-S with a 2zz engine swap and a gt28rs turbo setup really makes me a "car casual". You're dead on.

And your bringing up the Miatas sales lets us bring this discussion around to the Wii. See, you infer that more sales equals a better car. This simply isn't the case. There are many other reasons why something sells well. By your reasoning, we'd have to assume Wii is technically a better console than the PS3. Of course, that isn't true, much like saying the Miata is better than the MR-2

...not to mention that Toyota only shipped 23,000 MR-S's to America over the span of 6 years. The reason they sold less than Miata's is because there weren't as many for sale. Oh, and check the price of the retractable hardtop Miata before saying that the S2000 is out of it's price range.

why are you bringing up the wii and ps3?

come on stop lying to yourself, everyone knows the mazda is a better car. you'd be laughed at if this was a car forum, that Mr2 of yours is horribly outdated and ugly.

Power doesn't necessarily imply higher R&D cost. However, using last gen hardware does imply lower R&D cost. I don't know the PS2, XBOX, or Cube R&D cost so I can't compare them. I do know that Ninty's decision to use last gen hardware on the Wii was an attempt to minimize potential loss, an action not taken by either MS or Sony this gen.

I would probably then go on to say that in a market essentially based on advancement, Ninty is doing us a disservice. In this way, they're sort of like companies who make knock-off Nike shoes. Those companies will never contribute on their own to the industry, they'll simply feed off the efforts of others by marketing to a "niche" within the industry. Similarly, Sony, MS, and many other companies (even Ninty at one time)have spent boatloads making the game industry popular by constantly advancing. Ninty uses this popularity to field a consolethat costs very little to produce, and does very little to advance theindustry technically.Sony and MS will have little incentive to continue bringing us something new and cutting edge after everyone flocks to last gen hardware in a pretty case.

Anyway, you'll have to remember that I didn't make the opening statement here, Tacojelly did. I was discounting his claim, not making my own. I don't think you can say that Ninty success is deserved because they risked "everything". I would not have brought up risk in terms of deserving success at all had Tacojelly not made that statement.

whoisryanmack

Ok, fair enough. I see where you're coming from. I guess all I can say is that after playing Metroid Prime 3, I'm convinced that Wii is capable of great things, and whether or not devs choose to take full advantage of it is another matter. I would disagree with you about Wii not advancing the gaming industry though. It doesn't have anywhere near as much raw horsepower under the hood, but I would be willing to bet that next gen, both Sony and Microsoft will jump on the motion control bandwagon full force. When it's done well, it really is enjoyable.

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"][QUOTE="---OkeyDokey---"][QUOTE="whoisryanmack"][QUOTE="---OkeyDokey---"]

MX5>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MRS deal with it. your puny toyota from 1999makes me laugh.

---OkeyDokey---

What is your deal really? Are you still upset about losing the argument earlier? Get over it.

I don't know what about 2004 = 1999, but if we're playing the year of origin game, the first Miata showed up in 1990, so not only is it slower, or more homosexually stereotyped, it's older. At least you could've showed me an S2000... I guess it doesn't matter, your car is much cooler than any of them I'm sure.

i wasn't even arguing earlier :|

anyone who knows anything about cars knows that the mazda has been at the top of its class since it was first released. the model i showed was the brand new one from 2006. your model MRS has been around since 1999 and is severely outdated. you wanna know why its rarer? cuz no one buys them :lol:

the honda S2000 is much more expensive, hence why I didn't mention it. your obviously a "casual" when it comes to cars, and since the mazda isn't your cup of tea, this carseems more to your liking....

Yes, my MR-S with a 2zz engine swap and a gt28rs turbo setup really makes me a "car casual". You're dead on.

And your bringing up the Miatas sales lets us bring this discussion around to the Wii. See, you infer that more sales equals a better car. This simply isn't the case. There are many other reasons why something sells well. By your reasoning, we'd have to assume Wii is technically a better console than the PS3. Of course, that isn't true, much like saying the Miata is better than the MR-2

...not to mention that Toyota only shipped 23,000 MR-S's to America over the span of 6 years. The reason they sold less than Miata's is because there weren't as many for sale. Oh, and check the price of the retractable hardtop Miata before saying that the S2000 is out of it's price range.

why are you bringing up the wii and ps3?

come on stop lying to yourself, everyone knows the mazda is a better car. you'd be laughed at if this was a car forum, that Mr2 of yours is horribly outdated and ugly.

Alright. If slower, more common, and higher priced are what car boards are after in a sports car, I guess I would be laughed off. I don't think I want to be on THOSE boards though. The outdated part I'm still having trouble verifying..Mazda has yet to put the engine in the middle, nor have they caught up in terms of performance. If that's outdated, outdate me please, and someone inform Ferrari,Lambo, and Porschethat mid-engine is so last week.

I'm still waiting to hear about your car that is clearly faster and better looking than my 280hp, 2100lb MR-S? Do tell.

Ok...so why don't you read TacoJelly's comment that I was actually responding to (and quoted in my response).I didn't know what you thought about deserving success, youhadn't written yet.

For your second paragraph, I'll use the drug dealer or mafia example. They make profit, so we shouldn't criticize them? I mean, hey, it's a business right? How they go about making that profit doesn't matter. whoisryanmack

Is the TC serious? Somebody tell me.

I like do things in lists, it makes my thoughts my more organized and easily readable.

1.)Nintendo, not penniless. Their portables alone could carry Nintendo on their back. Which were always dominating.

2.)Casual games was Nintendo's way of opening the market up. It worked. It's beneficial for everyone.

3.)Nintendo could compete with Sony and Microsoft. In fact, aren't they right now?Oh wait...no...cause the Wii isn't a real console..LOL.

4.)They do deserve their success. An underpowered system that bases itself on its controller of all things.. balsy isn't it?

5.)The DS deserves everything. The touchscreen is the greatest things to come to handhelds. I mean, if PDA's have them, why not a Gameboy? Sounds right to me. And although the PSP has more media applications, its overrpriced and it reallyis a portable console, not a true handheld. Not to piss on Sony, its a good machine, but doesn't suit the market, at least not yet.

6.-the ultimate point

President Iwata of Nintendo just said less than a couple weeks ago that Nintendo is taking a break from Wii sports 2, cooking mama and all the other "casual games" in lieu of bringing better titles to the table. Translation: Nintendo didn't forget the hardcore's.

We're still in year 1 right now, and if people remember the 360 didn't have the best game list either till its year 2. Better titles are in development and third parties are signing on like no other. Ground-up Wii projects will come, hardcore titles will be there. No this is not wishful thinking, its a fact. Read gamespot/ign news articles for once.

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]Ok...so why don't you read TacoJelly's comment that I was actually responding to (and quoted in my response).I didn't know what you thought about deserving success, youhadn't written yet.

For your second paragraph, I'll use the drug dealer or mafia example. They make profit, so we shouldn't criticize them? I mean, hey, it's a business right? How they go about making that profit doesn't matter. LinkChicky

Ninty doesn't have to be using illegal means for me to draw this comparison. All I'm saying with the analogy is that it DOES matter how someone goes about making profit.

If Ninty makes profit by way of slick marketing, and low cost due to outdated tech, I think that's less deserving of praise than MS or Sony who have spent and risked boatloads to bring us advancement. If every company used "blue ocean", then where would we be? HUH?!!

. And I'm not sure how relevant Dreamcast is. Ponmop

you fail

Ninty doesn't have to be using illegal means for me to draw this comparison. All I'm saying with the analogy is that it DOES matter how someone goes about making profit.

If Ninty makes profit by way of slick marketing, and low cost due to outdated tech, I think that's less deserving of praise than MS or Sony who have spent and risked boatloads to bring us advancement. If every company used "blue ocean", then where would we be? HUH?!!

whoisryanmack

There's where you really lose me. Sony and MS aren't trying to bring us anything except more reasons to hand our money over to them, just like every company in history. I'm not sure why you think they have some noble goal in mind of bettering all our lives or something. They just want to turn a profit. They had one plan on how best to do this, and Nintendo had another. And right now, Ninty looks like it made a good business decision.

Is the TC serious? Somebody tell me.

I like do things in lists, it makes my thoughts my more organized and easily readable.

1.)Nintendo, not penniless. Their portables alone could carry Nintendo on their back. Which were always dominating.

It's called "style". He was using language in such a way to make the post prettier to read. You, as the reader, are supposed to understand the point he's making, not take it literally. If they were penniless, how did they develop a new product?

2.)Casual games was Nintendo's way of opening the market up. It worked. It's beneficial for everyone.

This assumes 1) casuals buying Wii have never seen videogames before, and 2) that casuals eventually become hardcores. Neither of those are always true, so the only thing we can say for sure is that Ninty is making profit. That's it. Beneficial for Ninty.

3.)Nintendo could compete with Sony and Microsoft. In fact, aren't they right now?Oh wait...no...cause the Wii isn't a real console..LOL.

While Nintendo MIGHT be able to compete with Sony and MS, they aren't right now. The meaning behind "blue ocean" is actually to not compete with those already in the industry. We can guess this is because they've succesively lost a few gens in a row.

4.)They do deserve their success. An underpowered system that bases itself on its controller of all things.. balsy isn't it?

If you consider spending very little to bring out old hardware for a second time, yes, they are quite balsy. Not like those wussies at Sony and MS who spent boatloads of cash developing new products that might well fail.

5.)The DS deserves everything. The touchscreen is the greatest things to come to handhelds. I mean, if PDA's have them, why not a Gameboy? Sounds right to me. And although the PSP has more media applications, its overrpriced and it reallyis a portable console, not a true handheld. Not to piss on Sony, its a good machine, but doesn't suit the market, at least not yet.

I think PSP is better, but that's just me. I'll give Ninty the DS, it's pretty cool.If Wii was as good a console as DS is a handheld, we wouldn't be having this argument.

6.-the ultimate point

President Iwata of Nintendo just said less than a couple weeks ago that Nintendo is taking a break from Wii sports 2, cooking mama and all the other "casual games" in lieu of bringing better titles to the table. Translation: Nintendo didn't forget the hardcore's.

...they just openly state that they're going after casuals and non-gamers first (as per your point #2)

We're still in year 1 right now, and if people remember the 360 didn't have the best game list either till its year 2. Better titles are in development and third parties are signing on like no other. Ground-up Wii projects will come, hardcore titles will be there. No this is not wishful thinking, its a fact. Read gamespot/ign news articles for once.

"Will be" "are coming" etc...all meaning the same thing. Do not exist.

sonic_spark

[QUOTE="Ponmop"]. And I'm not sure how relevant Dreamcast is. irelevent

you fail

lol Ok, whatever you say, kid. Go ahead and teach me how Dreamcast has anything to do with PS2 winning last gen.

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

Ninty doesn't have to be using illegal means for me to draw this comparison. All I'm saying with the analogy is that it DOES matter how someone goes about making profit.

If Ninty makes profit by way of slick marketing, and low cost due to outdated tech, I think that's less deserving of praise than MS or Sony who have spent and risked boatloads to bring us advancement. If every company used "blue ocean", then where would we be? HUH?!!

Ponmop

There's where you really lose me. Sony and MS aren't trying to bring us anything except more reasons to hand our money over to them, just like every company in history. I'm not sure why you think they have some noble goal in mind of bettering all our lives or something. They just want to turn a profit. They had one plan on how best to do this, and Nintendo had another. And right now, Ninty looks like it made a good business decision.

How many terraflops worth of processing power were there on ps2, xbox, and the cube? How many games on ps2 could show hundreds of npc's on screen a la Heavenly Sword? How many last gen games looked as good as Gears of War? How many consoles last gen supported HD res standard, and even had HD format drives? etc. etc.

They want to turn profit yes, and I never had a problem with that. What I disagree with is Ninty's creative twisting of facts to turn what is really last gen tech, into a better way to play games. Who said it's better other than Ninty? Without the "better gameplay" argument, they've got nothing. Meanwhile, virtually everything about 360 and ps3 are actual, verifiable enhancements. Something I'd like to see continue.

[QUOTE="irelevent"]

[QUOTE="Ponmop"]. And I'm not sure how relevant Dreamcast is. Ponmop

you fail

lol Ok, whatever you say, kid. Go ahead and teach me how Dreamcast has anything to do with PS2 winning last gen.

that aint what we are talking about "big strong man" calling me a kid.

anyway, you we're saying how it took the least risk and used theweakest technology that gen. my rebuttle consisted of me saying that Dreamcast had weaker technology and it was part of that gen, you respond by saying you dont know, i dont get how you can argue about something whenyou have no idea what you're talking about, ponmop.

How many terraflops worth of processing power were there on ps2, xbox, and the cube? How many games on ps2 could show hundreds of npc's on screen a la Heavenly Sword? How many last gen games looked as good as Gears of War? How many consoles last gen supported HD res standard, and even had HD format drives? etc. etc.

They want to turn profit yes, and I never had a problem with that. What I disagree with is Ninty's creative twisting of facts to turn what is really last gen tech, into a better way to play games. Who said it's better other than Ninty? Without the "better gameplay" argument, they've got nothing. Meanwhile, virtually everything about 360 and ps3 are actual, verifiable enhancements. Something I'd like to see continue.

whoisryanmack

I suppose as far as the better gameplay goes, I can only give my own opinions. For example I think the use of motion and IR controls in Metroid is amazingly well done and in many ways better than using dual analog for an fps. I'm sure there are millions of people who would disagree, but I really do believe that. I think it would really grow on anyone who gave it an honest shot. But maybe it's not for everyone, which is just fine, because there are 3 consoles to choose from, so no one should feel "trapped" into buying something they don't want. That's the upside of having 3 strong contenders in this race.

[QUOTE="GraveRIP"]Wow this post is bad. Im sorry so much fanboyism makes me sick. Also you called NIntendo penniless. LMAO thats enough to show you dont know what the hell your talkin about.Uncle_Uzi

Notice how I said "the THEN penniless" and also have some common sense dude, it was an exaggeration.

nintendo are not pennyless, they were never pennyless, nintendo, although the GC flopped, actually made more money than Sony and MS' game depts.

i dunno if you're being serious or not, i hope for your sake you wasn't, cos that was probably the most mis guided post i've read since C_Dog said "nintendo don't make games"

*sigh*

I am pretty sure that you have to be at least out of high school before you can 'decide' if a companies success is deserved or not...

What is sony and microsoft giving gaming that ninty is not?

Sony put the PS3 together with different parts from all of their other divisions.

Microsoft released the next XBox early to try to get a jump on the market.

Are those tactics that reak of 'honor' or what other brilliant point was made earlier?

Do any of the companies not deserve to be where they are?

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

How many terraflops worth of processing power were there on ps2, xbox, and the cube? How many games on ps2 could show hundreds of npc's on screen a la Heavenly Sword? How many last gen games looked as good as Gears of War? How many consoles last gen supported HD res standard, and even had HD format drives? etc. etc.

They want to turn profit yes, and I never had a problem with that. What I disagree with is Ninty's creative twisting of facts to turn what is really last gen tech, into a better way to play games. Who said it's better other than Ninty? Without the "better gameplay" argument, they've got nothing. Meanwhile, virtually everything about 360 and ps3 are actual, verifiable enhancements. Something I'd like to see continue.

Ponmop

I suppose as far as the better gameplay goes, I can only give my own opinions. For example I think the use of motion and IR controls in Metroid is amazingly well done and in many ways better than using dual analog for an fps. I'm sure there are millions of people who would disagree, but I really do believe that. I think it would really grow on anyone who gave it an honest shot. But maybe it's not for everyone, which is just fine, because there are 3 consoles to choose from, so no one should feel "trapped" into buying something they don't want. That's the upside of having 3 strong contenders in this race.

I don't even mind the motion controls. It's the only saving grace of the entire venture. If Ninty had developed a new system to go along with it, I'd probably own one.

What bothers me more are the white lies about everything else. The whole Wii project is labeled "innovation", "better gameplay" yadda yadda, when what that really boils down to is an easy way for Nintendo to compete with no one, and keep production costs down. Now, I don't expect them to come out and say THAT, but don't try to BS me by pretending your reasons are altruistic and you're "trying to get new gamers involved".

I guess the other thing to think about is that not everyone can do what Ninty is doing. If all console makers could simply bring out rather gimmicky systems with little technical innovation, we'd be lost in a sea of failed, cheap consoles. The second industry death actually. Of course, they can't do that, so while Sony and MS suffer the "honorable" way, by risking quite a bit to bring us something truly impossible a few years earlier, Ninty gets to feed off that with something that was almost sure fire for them.

BTW, I haven't really said this, but none of this matters very much to me in reality. I believe everything I've said, but I really don't have a vested interest in Ninty or any other companies success. As long as "hardcore" gaming exists, I'm good to go.

[QUOTE="Ponmop"][QUOTE="irelevent"]

[QUOTE="Ponmop"]. And I'm not sure how relevant Dreamcast is. irelevent

you fail

lol Ok, whatever you say, kid. Go ahead and teach me how Dreamcast has anything to do with PS2 winning last gen.

that aint what we are talking about "big strong man" calling me a kid.

anyway, you we're saying how it took the least risk and used theweakest technology that gen. my rebuttle consisted of me saying that Dreamcast had weaker technology and it was part of that gen, you respond by saying you dont know, i dont get how you can argue about something whenyou have no idea what you're talking about, ponmop.

lol I didn't say "kid" to make myself look like "big strong man," I said it because you're bickering like a 13 year old. When I asked why Dreamcast mattered in this discussion, you didn't even answer, you just said "you fail." Very mature. Dreamcast is irrelevant because it was not in contention for the full course of the console war last gen. I was comparing the Wii being underpowered this gen to the PS2 being underpowered last gen just to see what people thought about that. All that stuff people brought up about risks doesn't matter, in my opinion, and neither does bringing Dreamcast into the mix. So until you can tell me what Dreamcast has to do with PS2's domination, I stand by my statement.

[QUOTE="GraveRIP"]Wow this post is bad. Im sorry so much fanboyism makes me sick. Also you called NIntendo penniless. LMAO thats enough to show you dont know what the hell your talkin about.Uncle_Uzi

Notice how I said "the THEN penniless" and also have some common sense dude, it was an exaggeration.

The Gamecube made almost as much money as the PS2, while selling for half the price, with far more power... and the X-Box lost millions. :|

*another sigh*

Fact: the GC or any other last gen hardware could not do the calculations fast enough to work with the wii-mote

and what the hell did sony or ms risk??

and sony or ms - honor????? thats rich

BTW, I haven't really said this, but none of this matters very much to me in reality. I believe everything I've said, but I really don't have a vested interest in Ninty or any other companies success. As long as "hardcore" gaming exists, I'm good to go.

whoisryanmack

Yeah, same here. It's just nice to have a little bit of lively debate once in a while. :) Thanks for keeping it civil--that seems to be rare around here nowadays.

*another sigh*

Fact: the GC or any other last gen hardware could not do the calculations fast enough to work with the wii-mote

and what the hell did sony or ms risk??

and sony or ms - honor????? thats rich

Raoul_Duke_HST

Are you answering me...or the board..or what?

If it's me, please respect the fact that I cannot write the specifics of everything. If I don't generalize, this is going to take years, and I'm not getting paid. At the same time, I will respect the fact that you've not read the entire thread. Also, honorable was in quotations, meaning that it was not intended as it's definition would imply.

In respone. Roxrsmysoxrs! Ninty actually added something to the GC for it to be Wiimote compatible! Wow, I never would've guess. Thanks for the insight. I guess the point you're working towards is that Wii was a very costly venture with as much technical prowess as ps3 and 360? hmmmm....?

I don't even mind the motion controls. It's the only saving grace of the entire venture. If Ninty had developed a new system to go along with it, I'd probably own one.

What bothers me more are the white lies about everything else. The whole Wii project is labeled "innovation", "better gameplay" yadda yadda, when what that really boils down to is an easy way for Nintendo to compete with no one, and keep production costs down. Now, I don't expect them to come out and say THAT, but don't try to BS me by pretending your reasons are altruistic and you're "trying to get new gamers involved".

I guess the other thing to think about is that not everyone can do what Ninty is doing. If all console makers could simply bring out rather gimmicky systems with little technical innovation, we'd be lost in a sea of failed, cheap consoles. The second industry death actually. Of course, they can't do that, so while Sony and MS suffer the "honorable" way, by risking quite a bit to bring us something truly impossible a few years earlier, Ninty gets to feed off that with something that was almost sure fire for them.

BTW, I haven't really said this, but none of this matters very much to me in reality. I believe everything I've said, but I really don't have a vested interest in Ninty or any other companies success. As long as "hardcore" gaming exists, I'm good to go.

whoisryanmack

nintendo have almost always tried something new and innovative with there consoles, this might be the 1st time you've noticed, but its not the 1st time... so this isn't some attempt at competing against no competitors, its just what they do...

and getting new gamers involved is what all co. are trying to do... infact MS made a state a few E3's ago, that they want to reach 1 billion people with the xbox 360... there isn't 1billion spotty face teenage geeks in the world, so yeah, they must be trying to reach new people to... sony are tryin as well,.. so don't be mad at nintendo for getting right.. nearly 12mil units sold, they've over taken MS for the no. 1 spot, it hasn't even been out for 1 year yet, and most of the killer apps haven't been released... i think they're doin something right

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

I don't even mind the motion controls. It's the only saving grace of the entire venture. If Ninty had developed a new system to go along with it, I'd probably own one.

What bothers me more are the white lies about everything else. The whole Wii project is labeled "innovation", "better gameplay" yadda yadda, when what that really boils down to is an easy way for Nintendo to compete with no one, and keep production costs down. Now, I don't expect them to come out and say THAT, but don't try to BS me by pretending your reasons are altruistic and you're "trying to get new gamers involved".

I guess the other thing to think about is that not everyone can do what Ninty is doing. If all console makers could simply bring out rather gimmicky systems with little technical innovation, we'd be lost in a sea of failed, cheap consoles. The second industry death actually. Of course, they can't do that, so while Sony and MS suffer the "honorable" way, by risking quite a bit to bring us something truly impossible a few years earlier, Ninty gets to feed off that with something that was almost sure fire for them.

BTW, I haven't really said this, but none of this matters very much to me in reality. I believe everything I've said, but I really don't have a vested interest in Ninty or any other companies success. As long as "hardcore" gaming exists, I'm good to go.

Bandit_Haze

nintendo have almost always tried something new and innovative with there consoles, this might be the 1st time you've noticed, but its not the 1st time... so this isn't some attempt at competing against no competitors, its just what they do...

and getting new gamers involved is what all co. are trying to do... infact MS made a state a few E3's ago, that they want to reach 1 billion people with the xbox 360... there isn't 1billion spotty face teenage geeks in the world, so yeah, they must be trying to reach new people to... sony are tryin as well,.. so don't be mad at nintendo for getting right.. nearly 12mil units sold, they've over taken MS for the no. 1 spot, it hasn't even been out for 1 year yet, and most of the killer apps haven't been released... i think they're doin something right

What you're quoting is my conclusion. The veritable book I've written in this thread contains why I disagree with your post. Typically, I would be a sport and re-write the reasons, but I'm drunk at the moment.

Ah, what the hell.

Ninty began "blue ocean" with the DS. They have not "not competed" until Wii on consoles. They've brought small innovations here and there, but they didn't do anything wildly different, nor did I have a problem with those consoles.

Please do not be so naive to think Ninty is trying to get new gamers involved. The reason they are stating that as an objective is because new gamers are the most likely group to eat the miles of bull they've laid out. Would hardcores be likely to accept last gen graphics, and a fairly minigame heavy and childish game library? No. Casuals and non-gamers on the other hand are very willing to pay a low price for less. Ninty gets to have it's cake and eat it too with low production cost.

all i can say is wow at this pointRaoul_Duke_HST

It would be nice if you said more, so we could call your post a contribution.

[QUOTE="Raoul_Duke_HST"]all i can say is wow at this pointwhoisryanmack

It would be nice if you said more, so we could call your post a contribution.

you mean like the two you ignored?

[QUOTE="Ponmop"][QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

How many terraflops worth of processing power were there on ps2, xbox, and the cube? How many games on ps2 could show hundreds of npc's on screen a la Heavenly Sword? How many last gen games looked as good as Gears of War? How many consoles last gen supported HD res standard, and even had HD format drives? etc. etc.

They want to turn profit yes, and I never had a problem with that. What I disagree with is Ninty's creative twisting of facts to turn what is really last gen tech, into a better way to play games. Who said it's better other than Ninty? Without the "better gameplay" argument, they've got nothing. Meanwhile, virtually everything about 360 and ps3 are actual, verifiable enhancements. Something I'd like to see continue.

whoisryanmack

I suppose as far as the better gameplay goes, I can only give my own opinions. For example I think the use of motion and IR controls in Metroid is amazingly well done and in many ways better than using dual analog for an fps. I'm sure there are millions of people who would disagree, but I really do believe that. I think it would really grow on anyone who gave it an honest shot. But maybe it's not for everyone, which is just fine, because there are 3 consoles to choose from, so no one should feel "trapped" into buying something they don't want. That's the upside of having 3 strong contenders in this race.

I don't even mind the motion controls. It's the only saving grace of the entire venture. If Ninty had developed a new system to go along with it, I'd probably own one.

What bothers me more are the white lies about everything else. The whole Wii project is labeled "innovation", "better gameplay" yadda yadda, when what that really boils down to is an easy way for Nintendo to compete with no one, and keep production costs down. Now, I don't expect them to come out and say THAT, but don't try to BS me by pretending your reasons are altruistic and you're "trying to get new gamers involved".

I guess the other thing to think about is that not everyone can do what Ninty is doing. If all console makers could simply bring out rather gimmicky systems with little technical innovation, we'd be lost in a sea of failed, cheap consoles. The second industry death actually. Of course, they can't do that, so while Sony and MS suffer the "honorable" way, by risking quite a bit to bring us something truly impossible a few years earlier, Ninty gets to feed off that with something that was almost sure fire for them.

BTW, I haven't really said this, but none of this matters very much to me in reality. I believe everything I've said, but I really don't have a vested interest in Ninty or any other companies success. As long as "hardcore" gaming exists, I'm good to go.

The Wii's hardware technically isn't last generation. The GPU is around 3x as powerful as the GCN, maybe more if I knew more about the specs. But from what they have released about it so far, its really is around 3x. Don't blame the hardware blame the developers for shady ps2 ports with Wii controls and making C quality games to fund their 360 and Ps3 projects.

but I'm drunk at the moment.whoisryanmack

Okay, everyone just stop feeding the troll until he sobers up.

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

[QUOTE="Raoul_Duke_HST"]all i can say is wow at this pointRaoul_Duke_HST

It would be nice if you said more, so we could call your post a contribution.

you mean like the two you ignored?

No, like the one I ignored, and the other I responded to

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"] but I'm drunk at the moment.Tylendal

Okay, everyone just stop feeding the troll until he sobers up.

Hey now. I can't be a troll if I agree with the TC, can I? I can still maintain my point, I'm just lazier now. lol.

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"][QUOTE="Ponmop"][QUOTE="whoisryanmack"]

How many terraflops worth of processing power were there on ps2, xbox, and the cube? How many games on ps2 could show hundreds of npc's on screen a la Heavenly Sword? How many last gen games looked as good as Gears of War? How many consoles last gen supported HD res standard, and even had HD format drives? etc. etc.

They want to turn profit yes, and I never had a problem with that. What I disagree with is Ninty's creative twisting of facts to turn what is really last gen tech, into a better way to play games. Who said it's better other than Ninty? Without the "better gameplay" argument, they've got nothing. Meanwhile, virtually everything about 360 and ps3 are actual, verifiable enhancements. Something I'd like to see continue.

Ramadear

I suppose as far as the better gameplay goes, I can only give my own opinions. For example I think the use of motion and IR controls in Metroid is amazingly well done and in many ways better than using dual analog for an fps. I'm sure there are millions of people who would disagree, but I really do believe that. I think it would really grow on anyone who gave it an honest shot. But maybe it's not for everyone, which is just fine, because there are 3 consoles to choose from, so no one should feel "trapped" into buying something they don't want. That's the upside of having 3 strong contenders in this race.

I don't even mind the motion controls. It's the only saving grace of the entire venture. If Ninty had developed a new system to go along with it, I'd probably own one.

What bothers me more are the white lies about everything else. The whole Wii project is labeled "innovation", "better gameplay" yadda yadda, when what that really boils down to is an easy way for Nintendo to compete with no one, and keep production costs down. Now, I don't expect them to come out and say THAT, but don't try to BS me by pretending your reasons are altruistic and you're "trying to get new gamers involved".

I guess the other thing to think about is that not everyone can do what Ninty is doing. If all console makers could simply bring out rather gimmicky systems with little technical innovation, we'd be lost in a sea of failed, cheap consoles. The second industry death actually. Of course, they can't do that, so while Sony and MS suffer the "honorable" way, by risking quite a bit to bring us something truly impossible a few years earlier, Ninty gets to feed off that with something that was almost sure fire for them.

BTW, I haven't really said this, but none of this matters very much to me in reality. I believe everything I've said, but I really don't have a vested interest in Ninty or any other companies success. As long as "hardcore" gaming exists, I'm good to go.

The Wii's hardware technically isn't last generation. The GPU is around 3x as powerful as the GCN, maybe more if I knew more about the specs. But from what they have released about it so far, its really is around 3x. Don't blame the hardware blame the developers for shady ps2 ports with Wii controls and making C quality games to fund their 360 and Ps3 projects.

Man, I can't keep up anymore. Really, it's not your fault, but this is the conclusion to what was a very long discussion. I KNOW that Wii is not a GC, but that is not what my argument rested on. Actually, I don't even know that I can still identify exactly what the original argument was supposed to be. Something about Ninty, and risk, and I dunno...

[QUOTE="Raoul_Duke_HST"]

*another sigh*

Fact: the GC or any other last gen hardware could not do the calculations fast enough to work with the wii-mote

and what the hell did sony or ms risk??

and sony or ms - honor????? thats rich

whoisryanmack

Are you answering me...or the board..or what?

If it's me, please respect the fact that I cannot write the specifics of everything. If I don't generalize, this is going to take years, and I'm not getting paid. At the same time, I will respect the fact that you've not read the entire thread. Also, honorable was in quotations, meaning that it was not intended as it's definition would imply.

In respone. Roxrsmysoxrs! Ninty actually added something to the GC for it to be Wiimote compatible! Wow, I never would've guess. Thanks for the insight. I guess the point you're working towards is that Wii was a very costly venture with as much technical prowess as ps3 and 360? hmmmm....?

sorry missed this - as you missed the actual questions in my quotes

the dev kits couldnt do everything the wii does.

sony and microsofts costs were all absorbed by other divisions (especially sony - meadia and computer made all of the guts of the ps3 not their game dicvision)

also what word would you have to replace honorable - i doubt you can put anything there that is not equally as bogus

oh and nice straw man at the end of your quote

[QUOTE="irelevent"][QUOTE="Ponmop"][QUOTE="irelevent"]

[QUOTE="Ponmop"]. And I'm not sure how relevant Dreamcast is. Ponmop

you fail

lol Ok, whatever you say, kid. Go ahead and teach me how Dreamcast has anything to do with PS2 winning last gen.

that aint what we are talking about "big strong man" calling me a kid.

anyway, you we're saying how it took the least risk and used theweakest technology that gen. my rebuttle consisted of me saying that Dreamcast had weaker technology and it was part of that gen, you respond by saying you dont know, i dont get how you can argue about something whenyou have no idea what you're talking about, ponmop.

lol I didn't say "kid" to make myself look like "big strong man," I said it because you're bickering like a 13 year old. When I asked why Dreamcast mattered in this discussion, you didn't even answer, you just said "you fail." Very mature. Dreamcast is irrelevant because it was not in contention for the full course of the console war last gen. I was comparing the Wii being underpowered this gen to the PS2 being underpowered last gen just to see what people thought about that. All that stuff people brought up about risks doesn't matter, in my opinion, and neither does bringing Dreamcast into the mix. So until you can tell me what Dreamcast has to do with PS2's domination, I stand by my statement.

dreamcast does matter because it DOES count for this gen, whether you want to believe it or not.

there are still games being made for it so thats that.

also i would like to point out that ps2 came out one year before xbox and GC

let me put it this way, if ps2 we're similar to wii than: its like GC comes out with its graphics power and then one year after GC is released, PS2 is released with ps1 graphics. also ps2 was a pocket burner. you may not realise it but ps2 had a revolutionary new disc platfor called DVD capable of storing alot of memory.

also if you look at gamecube game compared to a ps2 game you couldnt say "this console looks better to this one"

while if you look at a wii versus the 360, which came out ONE YEAR BEFORE IT. you can rightously say 360 looks much better.

and that pretty much sums it up, now please go cry in your corner.

The Wii and DS have by no means earnedtheir position in sales, and certainly don't deserve any respect in SW.

The new Nintendo business approach is a last ditch, below-the-belt attempt to stay in the market on Nintendo's part. A name brand with an immense lack of quality titles for its platforms as of late, Nintendo has shifted its focus to a simpler, more aproachable market: Everyone. Indeed, the new Nintendo has understood that it simply cannot compete in the same market as the Xbox 360 or the Playstation 3. The evidence is standing clear in the open for all to see -because of the GameCube's immense failure, the then penniless Nintendo was forced to change aim. They realized that the majority of their original audience, the hardcore gaming community, simply was not interested in games that they were making anymore. Franchises of impeccable quality such as Halo or Final Fantasy were destined to overtake the poorly aging "classic" Nintendo IPs in the eyes of true gamers.

With this tragic knowledge, Nintendo was in a tough position to get back in the game -in fact, it was too tough for them to handle. So Nintendo went back to the drawing boards, wondering who they could fool into help making Nintendo a big name again. It was dead obvious: when gamers knew that Nintendo was stale, their non-gaming counterparts did not! They found out that an American housewife would just eat anything up that helped them lose some extra pounds! They found out that old people in nursing homes would instantly like something that they could enjoy without upsetting their arthritis! They understood that changing their target audience was the only way to go. And so they created the Wii and the DS, two despicable platforms that any serious gamer wouldn't waste their time on.

The end result was perfect: A machine that true geeks wouldn't play,taking aim and appeal to a non-gaming, geek-o-phobic audience. It sold like hotcakes. And it remained true to its principle, being the scourge of serious gaming and the saviour of the casuals. Real gamers didn't buy it; they didn't need to, for Nintendo making mountains of cash to fill their money-hungry pockets was a dead certain from the get-go. Eventually these gaming nightmares overtook sales of true gamer's plaforms, stealing all that they had of their hard earned media steam and casual appeal.

The Nintendo's new business strategy doesn't deserve to sell well, because its lack of fresh, deep titles makes it an old gimmick to the gaming community - something that Nintendo's new audience will soon find out as well. Yes, it is only a matter of time before this last-ditch effort fails miserably at the heels of more prestigous and respectable brand names.

Uncle_Uzi

Oh man, I am loving Nintendo once again being at the top of the sales chartz. Its so great just to watch leems and cows squirm like this. Next month they will probably start a campaign of calling nintendo homosexual.

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"][QUOTE="Raoul_Duke_HST"]

*another sigh*

Fact: the GC or any other last gen hardware could not do the calculations fast enough to work with the wii-mote

and what the hell did sony or ms risk??

and sony or ms - honor????? thats rich

Raoul_Duke_HST

Are you answering me...or the board..or what?

If it's me, please respect the fact that I cannot write the specifics of everything. If I don't generalize, this is going to take years, and I'm not getting paid. At the same time, I will respect the fact that you've not read the entire thread. Also, honorable was in quotations, meaning that it was not intended as it's definition would imply.

In respone. Roxrsmysoxrs! Ninty actually added something to the GC for it to be Wiimote compatible! Wow, I never would've guess. Thanks for the insight. I guess the point you're working towards is that Wii was a very costly venture with as much technical prowess as ps3 and 360? hmmmm....?

sorry missed this - as you missed the actual questions in my quotes

the dev kits couldnt do everything the wii does.

sony and microsofts costs were all absorbed by other divisions (especially sony - meadia and computer made all of the guts of the ps3 not their game dicvision)

also what word would you have to replace honorable - i doubt you can put anything there that is not equally as bogus

oh and nice straw man at the end of your quote

So what if their cost was absorbed by other divisions? Does that change the total number next to the dollar sign?

I would have replaced "honorable" with the idea that of course none of the strategies are honorable in the truest sense, but one of them is less than honorable in the truest sense by targeting a market that is more willing to accept mediocrity. They are all out for profit, but at least some shoot for the moon, while one shoots for Arkansas. You're still contributing to the corporate machine either way, but you're actually getting something substantial with ps3 or 360. You're also supporting the notion that gamers want advancement, and not rehashes.

I don't see how straw man applies. The only way your argument that Wii has tech not available in GC would apply to my argument that Wii was rather cheap to produce, and thus not very risky, would be if Wii cost more to R&D than did ps3 and 360. Otherwise, you're nitpicking specifics, while my point remains unchanged.

dreamcast does matter because it DOES count for this gen, whether you want to believe it or not.

there are still games being made for it so thats that.

also i would like to point out that ps2 came out one year before xbox and GC

let me put it this way, if ps2 we're similar to wii than: its like GC comes out with its graphics power and then one year after GC is released, PS2 is released with ps1 graphics. also ps2 was a pocket burner. you may not realise it but ps2 had a revolutionary new disc platfor called DVD capable of storing alot of memory.

also if you look at gamecube game compared to a ps2 game you couldnt say "this console looks better to this one"

while if you look at a wii versus the 360, which came out ONE YEAR BEFORE IT. you can rightously say 360 looks much better.

and that pretty much sums it up, now please go cry in your corner.

irelevent

There we go, I've underlined the relevant ideas you've contributed to the discussion. As for Dreamcast, once again, I think you'll find that IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS THREAD AND DISCUSSION it is irrelevant to the fact that Sony won last gen with a less powerful piece of hardware than its competitors. I know it was in the same gen and was the least powerful, but please understand that doesn't matter in relation to the point I was trying to make. As for crying in a corner, if that's what you think I'm doing, then more power to ya, bud.

[QUOTE="Raoul_Duke_HST"][QUOTE="whoisryanmack"][QUOTE="Raoul_Duke_HST"]

*another sigh*

Fact: the GC or any other last gen hardware could not do the calculations fast enough to work with the wii-mote

and what the hell did sony or ms risk??

and sony or ms - honor????? thats rich

whoisryanmack

Are you answering me...or the board..or what?

If it's me, please respect the fact that I cannot write the specifics of everything. If I don't generalize, this is going to take years, and I'm not getting paid. At the same time, I will respect the fact that you've not read the entire thread. Also, honorable was in quotations, meaning that it was not intended as it's definition would imply.

In respone. Roxrsmysoxrs! Ninty actually added something to the GC for it to be Wiimote compatible! Wow, I never would've guess. Thanks for the insight. I guess the point you're working towards is that Wii was a very costly venture with as much technical prowess as ps3 and 360? hmmmm....?

sorry missed this - as you missed the actual questions in my quotes

the dev kits couldnt do everything the wii does.

sony and microsofts costs were all absorbed by other divisions (especially sony - meadia and computer made all of the guts of the ps3 not their game dicvision)

also what word would you have to replace honorable - i doubt you can put anything there that is not equally as bogus

oh and nice straw man at the end of your quote

So what if their cost was absorbed by other divisions? Does that change the total number next to the dollar sign?

I would have replaced "honorable" with the idea that of course none of the strategies are honorable in the truest sense, but one of them is less than honorable in the truest sense by targeting a market that is more willing to accept mediocrity. They are all out for profit, but at least some shoot for the moon, while one shoots for Arkansas. You're still contributing to the corporate machine either way, but you're actually getting something substantial with ps3 or 360. You're also supporting the notion that gamers want advancement, and not rehashes.

I don't see how straw man applies. The only way your argument that Wii has tech not available in GC would apply to my argument that Wii was rather cheap to produce, and thus not very risky, would be if Wii cost more to R&D than did ps3 and 360. Otherwise, you're nitpicking specifics, while my point remains unchanged.

Nintendo doesn't have other divisions to absorb costs.

Ninty is trying to make money

Microsoft is trying to solidify their electronic monopoly

Sony is trying to trojan horse their hardware.

Which one has the least 'honor'.

This:

I guess the point you're working towards is that Wii was a very costly venture with as much technical prowess as ps3 and 360? hmmmm....?

is the definition of straw man. You couldn't argue with what I said so you made the above up and argued against it. How radio talkshow host of you...

What you're quoting is my conclusion. The veritable book I've written in this thread contains why I disagree with your post. Typically, I would be a sport and re-write the reasons, but I'm drunk at the moment.

Ah, what the hell.

Ninty began "blue ocean" with the DS. They have not "not competed" until Wii on consoles. They've brought small innovations here and there, but they didn't do anything wildly different, nor did I have a problem with those consoles.

Please do not be so naive to think Ninty is trying to get new gamers involved. The reason they are stating that as an objective is because new gamers are the most likely group to eat the miles of bull they've laid out. Would hardcores be likely to accept last gen graphics, and a fairly minigame heavy and childish game library? No. Casuals and non-gamers on the other hand are very willing to pay a low price for less. Ninty gets to have it's cake and eat it too with low production cost.

whoisryanmack

thats just it everyone is tryin to get new customers, sony, ms, any company you can think of, new customers, means more money, its what they all want... nintendo are just succeedin at gettin new customers right now... and where did u get last gen graphics from, granted a lot the games haven't used the full graphicall potential of the wii, but even still, they're way above last gen

Seems to me Nintendo deserve their success. They've been in the industry the longest. They've made sound business choices. They've taken risks, and built upon their past successes. They've expanded their business, and expanded the market. They've created consumer loyalty, and have been able to provide the public with what they want. They can see when something is going nowhere and take appropriate steps to stop themselves from tumbling down into oblivion.

Only way Nintendo shouldn't deserve their success is if they did something horribly wrong yet the general public supports them anyways.

Considering the name of the game is fun (ironic no?) I'd say they are doing the best job, and thusly deserve their success.

[QUOTE="whoisryanmack"][QUOTE="Raoul_Duke_HST"][QUOTE="whoisryanmack"][QUOTE="Raoul_Duke_HST"]

*another sigh*

Fact: the GC or any other last gen hardware could not do the calculations fast enough to work with the wii-mote

and what the hell did sony or ms risk??

and sony or ms - honor????? thats rich

Raoul_Duke_HST

Are you answering me...or the board..or what?

If it's me, please respect the fact that I cannot write the specifics of everything. If I don't generalize, this is going to take years, and I'm not getting paid. At the same time, I will respect the fact that you've not read the entire thread. Also, honorable was in quotations, meaning that it was not intended as it's definition would imply.

In respone. Roxrsmysoxrs! Ninty actually added something to the GC for it to be Wiimote compatible! Wow, I never would've guess. Thanks for the insight. I guess the point you're working towards is that Wii was a very costly venture with as much technical prowess as ps3 and 360? hmmmm....?

sorry missed this - as you missed the actual questions in my quotes

the dev kits couldnt do everything the wii does.

sony and microsofts costs were all absorbed by other divisions (especially sony - meadia and computer made all of the guts of the ps3 not their game dicvision)

also what word would you have to replace honorable - i doubt you can put anything there that is not equally as bogus

oh and nice straw man at the end of your quote

So what if their cost was absorbed by other divisions? Does that change the total number next to the dollar sign?

I would have replaced "honorable" with the idea that of course none of the strategies are honorable in the truest sense, but one of them is less than honorable in the truest sense by targeting a market that is more willing to accept mediocrity. They are all out for profit, but at least some shoot for the moon, while one shoots for Arkansas. You're still contributing to the corporate machine either way, but you're actually getting something substantial with ps3 or 360. You're also supporting the notion that gamers want advancement, and not rehashes.

I don't see how straw man applies. The only way your argument that Wii has tech not available in GC would apply to my argument that Wii was rather cheap to produce, and thus not very risky, would be if Wii cost more to R&D than did ps3 and 360. Otherwise, you're nitpicking specifics, while my point remains unchanged.

Nintendo doesn't have other divisions to absorb costs.

Ninty is trying to make money

Microsoft is trying to solidify their electronic monopoly

Sony is trying to trojan horse their hardware.

Which one has the least 'honor'.

This:

I guess the point you're working towards is that Wii was a very costly venture with as much technical prowess as ps3 and 360? hmmmm....?

is the definition of straw man. You couldn't argue with what I said so you made the above up and argued against it. How radio talkshow host of you...

I'm just not really sure what this is proving or disproving. I don't remember arguing that MS or Sony were more honorable companies, and I actually redifined honorable in this context. You just chose not to accept it, and continued using honorable literally.

Please identify why Ninty's lack of divisions changes the amount they've spent on R&D and console production, or the amount of tech advancement they've provided. (hint: don't say motion control!)

..and I've quite rebutted your point in an ironclad way. I told you exactly what it was supposed to mean, and exactly when it would pertain to this argument. You, of course, cannot prove me wrong because I'm not wrong...so you proceed to call the argument "straw man". So again, please identify why exactly Ninty showed more risk by releasing essentially last gen hardware at a much lower cost than did Sony or MS?

The DS is my favorite console of all time.....

Yes, I said it. My favorite console of all time. I enjoy my DS more than my NES, SNES, PC, PS2, etc.

I've never had as good of an experience with any console as I have had with my DS.

I'm just not really sure what this is proving or disproving. I don't remember arguing that MS or Sony were more honorable companies, and I actually redifined honorable in this context. You just chose not to accept it, and continued using honorable literally.

Please identify why Ninty's lack of divisions changes the amount they've spent on R&D and console production, or the amount of tech advancement they've provided. (hint: don't say motion control!)

..and I've quite rebutted your point in an ironclad way. I told you exactly what it was supposed to mean, and exactly when it would pertain to this argument. You, of course, cannot prove me wrong because I'm not wrong...so you proceed to call the argument "straw man". So again, please identify why exactly Ninty showed more risk by releasing essentially last gen hardware at a much lower cost than did Sony or MS?

whoisryanmack

moving goal posts thats nice too -

I am saying at the very least you cannot say that nintendo is any more or less deserving of their success. Nothing that you have percieved them to do is any worse then what Microsoft or Sony did. Quite the opposite actually.

As for R&D - Microsoft prolly had the lowest R&D costs of the three as they just put newer tech into their console.

Sony's 'R&D' was a marketing ploy for their other divisions re: blu-ray and cell - you really think the cell was made so gamers could benefit?

Finally the risk - changing the entire market paradigm is a risk that is orders of magnitude higher then doing more of the same.

Also 'last gen hardware' is intellectually dishonest and you know it...

Well, in all honesty, Nintendo has basically said "Make a cheap console that doesn't further technology whatsoever and add a gimmicky controller and kids/casual adults will buy it".

Whether or not you like it, it's true. I love Zelda...it's a great game. But most of the other games on the Wii are party games. I'm sorry, when most of your games are party games you have a problem. Zelda is the only worthwhile title on the console. The mere fact that people even buy it just proves what i said. I like the console...but the gimmicky appeal to it is astounding.

The DS is my favorite console of all time.....

Yes, I said it. My favorite console of all time. I enjoy my DS more than my NES, SNES, PC, PS2, etc.

I've never had as good of an experience with any console as I have had with my DS.

i_like_pizza

Then why don't you marry it?!

Sorry, little Pee Wee Herman joke for ya. ;)