No Mantle or OpenGL for you xbox one.

Yeah it was propaganda...lol

From what AMD benefits if DirectX is kill.? AMD doesn't make OS or anything of that sort and wins nothing by having DirectX kill further more MS and AMD are partners since 2004 dude.

Where did Valve say anything in that link? Or in Bit-Tech's link, through that article?

so were backtracking on our initial arguement.

arguing with tomentos or his cronies is like an angry and upset monkey at the zoo, they throw piss and shit at the glass window in a futile attempt that someone will agree, eventually they concede defeat and bugger off like any sensible animal or human being will do.

Lol

"Richard Huddy of AMD says his comments about DirectX "getting in the way" of PC gaming performance were taken out of context, and that the company stands firmly behind Microsoft's API.

I have some questions:

Given: DirectX of course, is proprietary to Windows, 360, XB1.

Would I be right to assume the XB1's hardware is capable of OpenGL/Mantle, but MS simply don't allow it's use? They want DirectX API's utilised? I suspect that yes - the hardware is capable but MS block it.

Would I be right to assume that OpenGL is available on: Wii U, Windows PCs, Mac PCs, Linux PCs, PS4? If yes, could this mean an OpenGL game requires special attention (Direct3D renderer at the least) to run on Xbox One? I'd suspect it's yes and yes.

Would I be right to assume that Mantle is available on: Any platform of PC with a compatible AMD card, and PS4? I'd suspect yes.

I'm very interested in this. It sounds to me like MS are putting up artificial barriers, barriers which could delay release of games to Xbox One, or prevent it altogether.

From http://www.pcper.com/news/Graphics-Cards/Microsoft-Confirms-AMD-Mantle-Not-Compatible-Xbox-One

"With Xbox One we have also made significant enhancements to the implementation of Direct3D 11, especially in the area of runtime overhead. The result is a very streamlined, “close to metal” level of runtime performance. In conjunction with the third generation PIX performance tool for Xbox One, developers can use Direct3D 11 to unlock the full performance potential of the console."

http://www.gamechup.com/xbox-one-mono-driver-allows-deeper-coding-for-maximum-performance/

"Xbox One “Mono” Driver Allows Deeper Coding for Maximum Performance"

Since E3, an example is that we’ve dropped in what we internally call our mono driver. It’s our graphics driver that really is 100 percent optimised for the Xbox One hardware. You start with the base [DirectX] driver, and then you take out all parts that don’t look like Xbox One and you add in everything that really optimises that experience. Almost all of our content partners have really picked it up now, and I think it’s made a really nice improvement

----

AMD's Mantle also supports MS HLSL (Direct3D's shader language) and it's AMD GCN features. AMD/DICE also took out all the parts that doesn't look like GCN while it keeps MS HLSL, thus creating AMD Mantle.

PS; Xbox uses xInput APIs instead of DirectX's DirectInput APIs LOL.

AMD didn't completely kill Direct3D since AMD Mantle still supports MS HLSL. The work on AMD Mantle can be recycled for the future PC low level graphics API from MS.

NVIDIA could have designed it's own low level APIs with common MS HLSL support.

What a total reading comprehension fail on your part. Read the article again and not just headline.

"He said that the developers wanted to get the DirectX API abolished and develop their own code for running games on PCs. Developers claim that APIs such as DirectX don't allow them to harness the full potential of the PC hardware, which is far superior to console hardware."

he didn't say replace DirectX API with OpenGL. They were talking about replacing all APIs with their own and that includes OpenGL. What you are reading is AMD talking about Mantle while it was still in development. He isn't saying OpenGL>DirectX. He is saying bypass ALL APIs and code to the metal which is what Mantle is. Read the article that post or whatever you want to call it is quoting if you need to get a better understanding.

X1 has it's own "DX11.X" with "close to metal" (influenced by AMD GCN) features i.e. it doesn't need OpenGL or AMD Mantle (with MS HLSL).

Both X1's "DX11.X" and AMD Mantle supports the common MS HLSL.

Almost everything that OpenGL is, Microsoft copied. Also OpenGL is extremely powerful, almost to the point where it could emulate any and all DirectX's graphical pipelines.

The only people who refute this, is the ones who have never programmed with it before. I have used both DirectX and OpenGL's pipelines in my projects and what I have to say about them both is that its a bit easier to work with DirectX but also unoptimized in allot of aspects. The whole API is designed for people who don't have the time to learn the nitty gritty of what state blocks, vertex, and pixel shaders do and how they are or should be applied to your 3d scene. OpenGL on the other hand, at this point has just about every feature DirectX has but is much more difficult to program for, this may be due to the fact that its actively programmed on unix/linux Solaris and only ported to windows.

I hope the new Steam OS shows people the true power of OpenGL and exposes the marketing fraud DirectX has forced down peoples throats.

DirectX is "proprietary" in the sense that MS created it and is solely responsible for making new version, but legally-speaking it's not actually exclusive to Microsoft. Anyone else can implement that same API (or parts of it) if they have sufficient motivation to do so. For instance Valve uses an "implementation" of D3D that they use on Linux, where the D3D calls are implemented using OpenGL.

Since XB1's GPU uses GCN architecture it's highly likely that most of Mantle could be made to work with its GPU, but there's not really much point in doing this outside of making porting easier for a game that already uses Mantle. If it were to happen it would be on MS to make it happen, and I don't see why they would spend time and money on it. The version of DirectX that they use on XB1 probably already provides low-level access to the hardware. That was definitely the case on the 360, where the API resembled D3D9 at a high level (and you could treat it as such if you wanted to make porting easier), but it provided extra layers of low-level access that were specifically tailored to its GPU. The same goes for OpenGL: MS could implement it if they wanted to, but there's no reason outside of making porting easier.

OpenGL is available on Mac/Windows/Linux PC's, and mobile phones/tablets. The only time its showed up on consoles was PS3 which had a stripped-down version of OpenGL available to make porting easier. However most games didn't use it, and uses the low-level API instead. PS4 has its own custom API that's tailored to the hardware.

I don't know if they've announced platforms and hardware for Mantle yet. Windows is a given, but Linux seems like a possibility as well (especially if Steam Boxes become popular). It's built around GCN, so it's probably only going to work on 7700/7800/7900-series cards, Sea Islands 8000 series cards, and the new Rx 200 line that was just announced. I very much doubt that it will show up on PS4, since they have their own API.

Modern OpenGL and D3D almost exactly the same extractions and pipelines, and for the most part expose the same exact level of functionality and performance (Nvidia's extensions for bindless textures and bindless multi draw indirect would probably be the most notable exception). Most of the differences between the two are completely superficial and stylistic in nature. I have no clue what would make you think that D3D is "designed for people who don't have the time to learn the nitty gritty of what state blocks, vertex, and pixel shaders do", considering that "state blocks" considering that you literally can't draw anything at all in modern D3D without using state blocks and shaders.

Mantle is of no advantage in the console arena, developers already have access to the low level functionality and always had. And nothing will change in the PC arena, DirectX and OpenGL both exists to support the wide range of hardware without needed to code for many different feature set in every GPU.

And provide me a link where Valve said OpenGL is better than DirectX on Windows.

Well, Valves Source games did perform better on Linux than on Windows under the same hardware IIRC.

I know that but where did they say OpenGL is better than DirectX and especially on Windows? As far as I know OpenGL is still playing catchup to DirectX in terms of features and ease of use.

@tormentos: And PS4 is stuck with OpenGL. Look up Jonathon Blow's last two weeks of tweets and look how fun Open is to program on.

DirectX 11.x > OpenGL/CL

Mantle is built to work with DirectX for XB1 (11.x) and to be easily portable to PC.

Consoles already have low level APIs. Mantle is meant for the PC and I'm sure Nvidia will show it's alternative if it takes off.

Edit: I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure their workstation drivers are in fact more low level than the geforce ones.

Do you know that when Valve started porting L4D 2 over with opengl it ran a whole 6 fps, when they finished they were using the latest version of opengl with linux to run 15% faster then windows + direct x 9. Thats is the key point direct x is not just a general version, there are multiple versions of it, 9,10,10.1,11-11.2.... All source engines run on direct x 9 an API that is more then 9 years old....

People tend to over look that aspect

Very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Of course but why would MS go for an API they have no control over for their console when they already have one on which they invested for years.

Would be strange if the directXbox used openGL instead.

DX 11.2 does something similar to Mantle.

Yes, because clearly DirectX is what limits games to 900p. All of those 900p+ PC games in DirectX are people lying or magic.

PS4 doesn't use OpenGL. I don't know why everyone thinks this, but it's not true and never was.

EDIT: the developers of The Crew talk about the PS4 API's in this article, if anyone is interested.

Stateblocks must be programmed to do what you need/asking it to do. For example a standard stateblock would be Fillmode = Solid; But OpenGL has to be programmed to access and interpenetrate what these things would do in memory otherwise you would be just writing it without it doing anything.

I'm not going to buy an Xbox One and probably never will, but this topic is stupid. It uses DirectX, there's no need for Open GL. Hell, all PC games are made in DirectX as opposed to Open GL. It's simply a better system to use for most developers.

LMAO

So much for that "easy porting" you were bragging about, Bottles.

Yes and no.

For example, PC's DX11.2/WDDM1.3 still has overhead issues with compute shader results being return to CPU in a timely manner. For AMD, it's HSA/Mantle software stack to solved this issue.

NVIDIA has their own low level driver stack with TCC. Atm, NVIDIA TCC driver stack supports CUDA and OpenCL with no graphics hardware support.

I guess TC's thread backfired. Amd said there would be no mantle support on either Ps4 and Xbox One. OpenGl is worse than Directx. So Xbox One comes out the victor this round.

@Suppaman100 said:

From the supporters and pushers of DRM, Microsoft brings you the Xbone.

Xbone; mediocre casual kinect gaming experiences, zero privacy and outlandish policies.

look at his cheesy grin.

Tomatoes seems to avoid this thread like the plague while he actually started it, wonder why ?

LOL

@slipknot0129:

Well, the whole point about AMD Mantle is for PCs equipped with GCN gaining console *like* APIs. Consoles gaining "console like APIs" doesn't sound logical.

Consoles gaining "console like APIs" is not logical. Why would a console need "console like APIs" when the consoles already has it's own low level graphics APIs?