No More Guessing About BC With The Scorpio!!

This is great news and really how things should work period. The scorpio sounds great from that standpoint but will it have software support for all games unlike the ps4 pro right now.

its good to see at least one console making their next gen ones backwards compatible. It was complete shit how they didn't have it until now though since PC has kept its compatibility so well dating back to the dos OS

excellent news, I just hope they can work on the digital Xbox 360 library to bring down game prices and get some games previously not released digitally a space on their digital marketplace

also wonder if they'll be able to make Xbox originals work on the Xbox One, I'd love to revisit Panzer Dragoon Orta on the XB1

I might consider the Scorpio then seen as it will have BC for 360 games and I did't pick the system.

Well the PS4 and PS Pro are different platforms, which is why Sony added backwards compatibility to the PS Pro to support PS4 games. Looks like MS will be doing something similar.

I guess that makes sense. And I always thought they are the same just different components upgrades.

There are instruction set/intrinsic function differences between Vega 11 and older Bonaire based GCNs. The thin API layer has to mitigate GCN hardware differences.

Scorpio will have 4 Zen cores/mobile Zen cores that are potentially down clocked a bit and have SMT so 8 threads. Would be tons better then Jaguar cores today in the consoles. I am also pretty sure actually the GPU going in the Scorpio will be a cut down RX 490 and not from Polaris silicon at all

@flyincloud1116: Thank you captain obvious. "No one left behind. " Yet...

@blackace: Boy, you can be really stupid about 100% of the time.

This is actually so good. Sony should take some notes here. Their console is running PS2 games upscaled, but instead of letting people play their games BC, they release a few on the store and that's it.

I'm really curious how they got the system to play the games natively given the architectural differences, however they managed to do it this is a fantastic victory.

I guess with Scorpio people really can completely get rid of their Xbox 360's now and retain all the game functionality.

What did Scorpio get out of this, 900+ more games? Also they will be able to fully integrate the Xbox 360 store into the main Xbox One store for Scorpio users completely bridging that gap.

The PS3 also featured a blu ray player at a time when standalone blu ray players were more than $600.

The only problem I have with this is a personal one; that there are no games on past MS systems that I'd want to play. But this sounds like the best kind of BC. Great.

That's actually awesome news, that's true BC and how it should be done. Depending on price I might get a Scorpio now. Are original Xbox games going to be BC also?

I wish Sony would do this, I understand it's nearly impossible with the ps3 games as even high end PCs still can't emulate them, but I'd love to see BC for ps1 and ps2 games, playing them straight from the original disc.

QFT. TLHBO

To get true 4K they will need a more powerful CPU. I'm pretty sure they know that.

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No one is stupid. Maybe you are from the way you form a sentence. Phil had already said the Scorpio would include XBox 360 B/C. No one left behind. This is old, old news.

Only the ones that have been ported.

@skektek: No, sounds like ALL 360 games, as in true BC.

No, the system will be able to natively run them.

Scorpio doesn't have PowerPC hardware.

Without XBO's Xbox 360 BC method, Scorpio's emulation method could be the brute force method and perhaps closer to Apple's Rosetta PPC-to-X86 runtime re-complier with native runtime libraries. Apple's Rosetta doesn't need Apple's intervention.

XBO's Xbox 360 BC method needs MS's intervention to optimise the converted code to increase runtime speed i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peephole_optimization

Peephole_optimization is also used in PC video drivers where monthly downloads includes replacement shader code that targets a particular game.

For Scorpio, MS stated 8 CPU cores... The cheapest method to run games from PC is to have big and small CPU setup e.g. quad core mobile ZEN + quad core Jaguar.

Threads 1 to 4 = big CPU cores

Threads 5 to 8 = small CPU cores. OS background threads run on small CPU cores.

ARM has big and small CPU setup e.g. Qualcomm S810 has ARM Cortex A57 quad big core + Cortex A53 quad small core.

Alternatively, Scorpio could have 8 mobile ZEN cores since Scorpio's APU chip size can contain Polaris 10 size GPU + full blown 8 core ZEN which includes it's northbridge, southbridge and memory controllers.

Scorpio's estimate APU chip size = 362 mm^2

http://digiworthy.com/2016/08/30/amd-zen-die-size-details-on-quad-core-unit/

With 14 nm FinFET, ZEN's estimated size is 4.91 mm^2 which is close 28 nm Jaguar's 3.1 mm^2 size.

ZEN, 8 cores x 4.91 mm^2 = 39.28 mm^2.

GPU, Polaris 10 with 36 CU = 232 mm^2. Vega 11 with 36 CU version would be similar in size i.e. 240 mm^2

Total: 276.28 mm^2 which doesn't include Northbridge, Southbridge and additional 128 bit memory controllers for 384 bit memory bus.

362 mm^2 - 276.28 mm^2 = 85.72 mm^2 for other functions in the APU chip e.g. Northbridge, Southbridge, L3 cache, additional 128 bit memory controllers, additional CU e.g. 40 CU.

Near full blown 8 ZEN CPU cores at laptop clock speed and Vega 11 is generation leap from XBO.

8 ZEN CPU cores at laptop's 2 Ghz clock speed can deliver gameplay logic/modeling far advance over Xbox One, Xbox One S, PS4 and PS4 Pro ie. PC's Total War Warhammer level NPC count is possible on Scorpio.

Probably using a 360 SoC which by now should be dirt cheap,any other way demands emulation on the Scorpio side since the 3 core CPU is IBM PPC.

That is how PS2 games worked on PS3 they just work because the original chips were there to work.

Hahahahaa love the whole part about the 900 games,you lemmings still trying to relive past glory days when scorpio should pull its own weight like the PS4 did.

Gotta laugh at cows getting butthurt over BC

Oh look you got the courage to step out of your alter account how funny..hahahahaaa

Wait weren't you the guy who predict sony going under and claim sony could not make a more powerful console than the xbox because they were going bankrupt.? Hahahahahaa

@tormentos: Actually the 80 gig ps3 s used emulation to play ps2 games while the original 60 gig ps3 used the actual ps2 chips. The 20 gig might have also used the ps2 chips, I can't remember.

@flyincloud1116: Sounds too good to be true, but if it'll be true then very nice move.

I don't think they implied that anywhere. The CPU bump probably meant that it's easier to run BC now. In fact, I think they'll get OG Xbox BC there with the Scorpio, too.

• We’ve very specifically designed it [on Scorpio] so Xbox games just run
• It’s nothing like Xbox 360 backwards compatibility right now
• There’s a lot of technical wizardry involved in that. We didn’t want to have to do that again

If games just run on the system then they don't need to be coded to, that's the problem with the current BC, they rely on emulation, because they rely on emulation they have to alter the game code which requires use rights from publishers. By creating the system in a fashion where the games just function on their own, they don't need publishing rights thus every game in the 360 library will work.

@dynamitecop:

I don't want to read the whole thread or go digging for info on this, so if you can just give me the short of it. I really haven't paid a shred of attention to these new consoles lol.

1. Is the Scorpio actually 100% native BC with all 360 games?

2. Does this include OG Xbox games as well? Or has that even been mentioned/clarified?

If yes on both I'll probably pick up a Scorpio.

Well if they just run on the system then that would require no modification of game code for functionality which is why they have to be added one at a time right now on Xbox One. Without the need to modify game code, they are not required to contact publishers and get access rights for the games so they can be added, they will just work at a system level thus every game has to, similar to the PlayStation 3 and its backward compatibility.

They haven't mentioned OG Xbox games yet, however it's still quite early and Phil has talked about it before, I have a serious inclination that they are going to figure out how to do it and encompasses all Xbox's under one console veil.

@dynamitecop:

Cool, thanks man, I'll just wait and see then. If I can access the full Xbox library on a single machine I'd be crazy not to get one, I really hope they come through.

Yeah, if they can swing that it would be a major game changer.

@dynamitecop: it would be a big bonus, to be sure. One of the best parts about PC, IMO, is nothing to do with graphical power but the simple fact that I can play almost anything that I liked from almost any era. I'm a big proponent of BC, and I think the biggest characteristic of console generations is not actually the hardware change, per se, but the fact that they have marked a fairly abrupt discontinuity in the games you could play. That has usually been BECAUSE of the hardware change, but as a gamer the thing that is most tangible to me is the software boundary. It's nice to see this fading

That is very interesting. I guess I didn't read the full story.

I would be very surprised and both impressed if they get it t run natively or add dedicated X360 hardware to do it. I would assume its mostly software related.

The fastest legacy support method via software requires software optimizations that requires changes in the legacy code, hence MS's intervention.

Apple's Rosetta emulation method doesn't require Apple's intervention for each legacy app. Software emulation can be less complex with higher CPU power.

Unlike Jaguar, ZEN has FMA instruction support which can map with PowerPC's 3 operand FMA instruction.

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/chuckw/2012/09/11/directxmath-f16c-and-fma/

First thing I noticed. Why wouldn't it?

MS wins consoles.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to the bc games available now and that all future bc games will just work, I doubt is going to be full bc out of the box with all 360 games.

Why do you keep coming back with recompilation as the method they are using? Did you seem them mention that some where because I havent . You keep saying this like its a fact when it is not.

Scorpio will not have IBM PPE 3X and it's direct successor PowerPC A2 i.e. it was rejected during XBO's development due to licensing cost. It's very unlikely MS will pay for two separate CPU micro-architecture licenses.

MS is fine with Windows NT with a FX-32(X86-32 to Alpha) style software CPU emulation. XBO's 360 BC is more complex than FX32 method.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-x86-on-arm64-emulation-a-windows-10-redstone-3-fall-2017-deliverable/

MS has done another FX32 with Windows 10 RedStone 3 ARM64 edition with FX32 style X86 emulation.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/3214997_fig2_Figure-2-Relative-Performance-of-a-500-MHz-Alpha-running-Digital-FX32-and-a-200-MHz

Alpha at 500 Mhz

Pentium at 200 Mhz.

ZEN has better instruction set mapping with PowerPC's three-operand fused multiply-accumulate support (FMA3).

@ronvalencia: Who made mention of Scorpio including a PPC ? I certainly didnt. I am noticing a trend that you have a problem responding to direct questions with direct answers. Your post has nothing to do with the question that I asked you and the links you provide have nothing to do with the subject of my question. I will restate the question to give you a second chance at answering it, without a bunch of graphs and irrelevant information. Why do you keep stating that Xbox is using recompilation for backwards compatibility?

You dismissed "recompilation", hence your argument falls to hardware PPE solution.

There are two main recompilation methods and these are

1. static which can be stored on hard disk

2. dynamic which is generated at runtime via Just-In-Time (JIT)

For Xbox 360 BC on Scorpio, recompilation methods will be used.

For Xbox One BC on Scorpio, API re-mapping will be used e.g. memory access calls to ESRAM remapped to GDDR5 memory pool. DIY API enabled XBO game may require some recompilation i.e. it depends on GCN 1.1 +XBO specifics vs Vega + Scorpio specifics instruction set difference.

AMD PC GPU driver has recompilation for different GPU generations.

Mantle game that works on GCN 1.1 can break on GCN 1.2 let alone GCN 1.3 Polaris and GCN 1.4 Vega.

@ronvalencia: Is english your second language?

About time if true. THAT is what BC is... not whatever the hell they are trying to push off on people these days.

You don't know shit.

@spitfire-six said:

Why do you keep coming back with recompilation as the method they are using? Did you seem them mention that some where because I havent . You keep saying this like its a fact when it is not.

“We’ve very specifically designed it [on Scorpio] so Xbox games just run,” he said, referring to both Xbox 360 and Xbox One titles. “It’s nothing like Xbox 360 backwards compatibility right now — there’s a lot of technical wizardry involved in that. We didn’t want to have to do that again.”

Translating different CPU/GPU instruction set 101. This is mostly for Xbox 360 BC on X86 based machines.

There are 3 main software translation method

1. Interpretation method, very simple and very slow. Each instruction translation is slow down with lookup table e.g. PearPC's fall back CPU emulation. Needs very fast CPU to make this useful.

2. Dynamic Recompilation method has higher complexity and it's faster than the above interpretation method. Translation done during runtime with just-in-time process. This is just-in-time recompilation during runtime method. General case optimisation requires less man power resource but it's slower than specific peephole optimisation speed up method. PC GPU driver has peephole optimisation methods that target's specific titles e.g. in some case, game's shader code get's rewritten by AMD or NVIDIA.

3. Static Recompilation method, similar to Dynamic Recompilation method, but with the ability to save the translated code stream into physical storage e.g. Apple's Rosetta.

MS's intervention for each Xbox 360 title indicates specific peephole optimisation speed up method and can be human resource extensive. Peephole optimisation speed up method is fastest software method to support legacy software.

Apple's Rosetta only has general case optimisation, hence less man power resource and slower than peephole optimisation method.

Monthly PC GPU driver download includes shader replacement code for each game title e.g. Game Ready Driver. This is an example peephole optimisation.

To make "We didn’t want to have to do that again” to be true for Xbox 360 BC, MS's intervention for each Xbox 360 title incidents has to be reduced which mean slower translation software but it could indicate faster CPU on Scorpio.

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For GCN version 1.1 vs other GCN versions

[–]AMD_RobertTechnical Marketing 8 points9 points10 points 6 months ago(1 child)

As you probably know, GCN has evolved quite a lot over time. Four major versions, now. That means there are newer or different intrinsics to account for what has been added or changed over time. But, in general, we're mostly talking about core functionality common to the Graphics Core Next ISA that is now better exposed. This means applicability to any derivative part.

Xbox One's thin API/driver has to factor in newer or different intrinsics in across GCN generations.

PC's GCN intrinsics only takes the common functionality across GCN generations, but the console has most of the GCN's intrinsics exposed to the programmer. If future GCN changes the current common intrinsics, AMD would need to add translation layer to support the older intrinsics.

GCN version

Version 1.0 = Tahiti/Pitcairn

Version 1.1 = Hawaii/Bonaire. XBO is based from Bonaire. PS4 is based from Hawaii's un-core parts with Pitcairn core.

Version 1.2 = Fiji/Tonga. Mantle e.g. Thief Mantle or DirectX12 f**k-ups e.g. Gears Ultimate DX12 works fine on GCN 1.1 while broken on GCN 1.2. Driver needs to be aware of GCN differences. Thief Mantle remains broken for GCN 1.2 i.e. Mantle does it's job in pushing DirectX12 into early release.

Version 1.3 = Polaris

Version +1.3x = PS4 Pro, Polaris 10 with two new features.

Version ++1.3x = Vega

I have experienced 68000 to 68060 when Motorola has lossy instruction set preservation and this lossy instruction set preservation is prevalent on AMD GCN. 68060 has OS library to trap unsupported 68000 instructions and translate it into 68060 version. This is not transparent to the OS.

Modern X86 CPU has micro-coding hardware +firmware update to work around buggy instructions and it's transparent to the OS..

Judging from your statements, you have haven't experience lossy instruction set preservation and software workarounds to fix it.

Who was wondering about it, we already knew it would be LOL.

Here is the problem, your talking all this shit when I actually have access to the code base. Your also making alot of assumptions about how it works holding old ideas that translation is still a slow method of emulation. You keep throwing all this shit at a wall hoping you can scare people away from questioning what you are saying. I have asked you a question and instead of answering my question you make an assumption about what I believe and you jump to defending before you actually hear/read what I have actually said. So instead of having an actual conversation with you on how this works because it seems to be impossible I will just tell you right now you are wrong and end this conversation.

For PowerPC emulation, interpretation method is the slowest. There are many open source and commercial PowerPC(or any non-native CPU for that matter) emulators that used just-in-time recompiling method and MS is no different. You can't escape the computer science 101.

The word "translation" doesn't indicate any implementation details, hence your "translation" usage is meaningless.

https://www.petri.com/windows-10-desktop-for-arm-is-in-development

Microsoft can't escape JIT re-compiler emulation method.

One of the primary problems with Windows RT was the lack of Win32 application support. WalkingCat, who found the initial documentation, also notes that a Microsoft employee has listed on his LinkedIn account that they helped prototype an x86 compatibility subsystem for Windows on ARM based on x86-to-ARM just-in-time (JIT) emulator

That's awesome. Glad I saved all my 360 games.