NPD Group responds to gamer outcry; hates VGCharts really bad!

http://kotaku.com/gaming/sales-charts/npd-surprised-at-backlash-hate-vgchartz-real-bad-319679.php

NPD's decision to re-yank the public availability of their hardware numbers has upset people. Like me! All morning I've tasted naught but salt as tears flowed, unchecked, down my sullen cheeks. It's upset a lot of other people too. Where will trolling fanboys, for example, get their monthly dosage of troll juice? Other more sensible types will wonder just why simple figures like sales data, which are readily and freely available for almost every major product/medium, are being restricted. All of which is news to NPD! PR representative David Riley:

"I had no idea this would be so ill-received. Honestly, I know this sounds ignorant but I really was taken aback when I started hearing/reading about this. It was unexpected."

So they had no idea the restriction of information would upset people. Amazing! Almost as amazing as the tirade Riley then launches into against what can only be popular sales-forecasting website VGChartz.

"Regarding rogue sites that actively use existing data from market research firms, combine that data with estimates and then claim the data as their own -- it's true I'm no fan of sociopathic behavior and, as such, have real issues with sites like these but this has nothing to do with the change, either. The best way to approach this issue is to let the industry police it, or to simply wait and let the truth come out in the end. It always does."

Discuss

Ugh, who cares.

Good, hopefully this will eliminate some of the number-watching in this forum. It got old years and years ago.

It should only be about the games.

People always say "Sales matter too because in the future it translates to good games." That maybe be, but how can they not see that it still isn't the sales that matter, it's the GAMES (regardless of when they get them or what forces[sales or otherwise] cause them to be on their system of choice.)

Sales watching is so boring.

Debates about the quality of games are far better.

I'm glad they pulled the public plug.

The naivety of the guy is staggering. He works in public relations and is completely ignorant of what the public thinks and wants. Zeliard9

You seem to be confusing "the public" with "teh f@nb0ys."

VGChartz never claims the data as their own. They do an estimate, then compare it to the actual NPD numbers. Its stated right on their site.Dilrod

Doesn't change the fact that their weekly numbers are utter BS.

[QUOTE="Zeliard9"]The naivety of the guy is staggering. He works in public relations and is completely ignorant of what the public thinks and wants. mjarantilla

You seem to be confusing "the public" with "teh f@nb0ys."

You seem to not understand the importance of NPD's offerings were before they were discontinued. A lot of people rely on these figures in the stock market.

[QUOTE="Dilrod"]VGChartz never claims the data as their own. They do an estimate, then compare it to the actual NPD numbers. Its stated right on their site.mjarantilla

Doesn't change the fact that their weekly numbers are utter BS.

I agree partially, but who else is there to go to for figures? It's not NPD puts the figures on their front page like VGChartz does.

[QUOTE="Dilrod"]VGChartz never claims the data as their own. They do an estimate, then compare it to the actual NPD numbers. Its stated right on their site.mjarantilla

Doesn't change the fact that their weekly numbers are utter BS.

Thats not what this topic is about though.

TC, if you don't mind, could you edit your topic title to make "Gamer Outcry" all lowercase?

it makes the reader think "Gamer Outcry" is a title for a game or something instead of a statement of people complaining.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="Zeliard9"]The naivety of the guy is staggering. He works in public relations and is completely ignorant of what the public thinks and wants. MrConvoy

You seem to be confusing "the public" with "teh f@nb0ys."

You seem to not understand the importance of NPD's offerings were before they were discontinued. A lot of people rely on these figures in the stock market.

You seem to not understand that NPD is only pulling their data from PUBLIC availability. They'll still make the data available to the people that REALLY need them, i.e. the people who actually PAY NPD for their data.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="Dilrod"]VGChartz never claims the data as their own. They do an estimate, then compare it to the actual NPD numbers. Its stated right on their site.Dilrod

Doesn't change the fact that their weekly numbers are utter BS.

Thats not what this topic is about though.

It's why the NPD guy is b****ing about VGChartz.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="Dilrod"]VGChartz never claims the data as their own. They do an estimate, then compare it to the actual NPD numbers. Its stated right on their site.MrConvoy

Doesn't change the fact that their weekly numbers are utter BS.

I agree partially, but who else is there to go to for figures? It's not NPD puts the figures on their front page like VGChartz does.

It's ok to still use VGChartz, but only for monthly numbers which are actually based on NPD's numbers. But their weekly numbers are BS.

[QUOTE="MrConvoy"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="Zeliard9"]The naivety of the guy is staggering. He works in public relations and is completely ignorant of what the public thinks and wants. mjarantilla

You seem to be confusing "the public" with "teh f@nb0ys."

You seem to not understand the importance of NPD's offerings were before they were discontinued. A lot of people rely on these figures in the stock market.

You seem to not understand that NPD is only pulling their data from PUBLIC availability. They'll still make the data available to the people that REALLY need them, i.e. the people who actually PAY NPD for their data.

It always feels better to know people are actually buying rather than looking at figures based on shipments. The people I say that rely on these figures are people that aren't serious about buying shares in the gaming industry, but rather "play around" and go with what's hot, which is obviously the Wii.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="MrConvoy"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="Zeliard9"]The naivety of the guy is staggering. He works in public relations and is completely ignorant of what the public thinks and wants. MrConvoy

You seem to be confusing "the public" with "teh f@nb0ys."

You seem to not understand the importance of NPD's offerings were before they were discontinued. A lot of people rely on these figures in the stock market.

You seem to not understand that NPD is only pulling their data from PUBLIC availability. They'll still make the data available to the people that REALLY need them, i.e. the people who actually PAY NPD for their data.

It always feels better to know people are actually buying rather than looking at figures based on shipments. The people I say that rely on these figures are people that aren't serious about buying shares in the gaming industry, but rather "play around" and go with what's hot, which is obviously the Wii.

So the people you're talking about aren't major investors, are too easily influenced by the sensationalist media, and don't pay for the figures.

Why should NPD care about them again?

[QUOTE="MrConvoy"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="MrConvoy"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="Zeliard9"]The naivety of the guy is staggering. He works in public relations and is completely ignorant of what the public thinks and wants. mjarantilla

You seem to be confusing "the public" with "teh f@nb0ys."

You seem to not understand the importance of NPD's offerings were before they were discontinued. A lot of people rely on these figures in the stock market.

You seem to not understand that NPD is only pulling their data from PUBLIC availability. They'll still make the data available to the people that REALLY need them, i.e. the people who actually PAY NPD for their data.

It always feels better to know people are actually buying rather than looking at figures based on shipments. The people I say that rely on these figures are people that aren't serious about buying shares in the gaming industry, but rather "play around" and go with what's hot, which is obviously the Wii.

So the people you're talking about aren't major investors, are too easily influenced by the sensationalist media, and don't pay for the figures.

Why should NPD care about them again?

Hey, I'm not saying they should care. ;) Obviously there are lot more people outside of those that are mentioned. I doubt most of the outcry is from them anyways.

[QUOTE="MrConvoy"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="Dilrod"]VGChartz never claims the data as their own. They do an estimate, then compare it to the actual NPD numbers. Its stated right on their site.mjarantilla

Doesn't change the fact that their weekly numbers are utter BS.

I agree partially, but who else is there to go to for figures? It's not NPD puts the figures on their front page like VGChartz does.

It's ok to still use VGChartz, but only for monthly numbers which are actually based on NPD's numbers. But their weekly numbers are BS.

Well NPD aren't perfect....they simply estimate from a certain number of retailers (they don't even get figures from Walmart..one of the largest game retailers out there)..

None of the figures are 100% correct be it from NPD of VGChartz.

At least VGChartz makes a decent effort..which is more than anyone else has ever tried to do. I applaud them for at least trying to make a sales database.

Of course the irony is that thanks to the NPD now hiding their figures...more and more people will use VGChartz and more official news websites will use their figures.

NPD's number ban is making VGChartz the only show in town...there's nowhere else to go....so they will be further legitimised by the media.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="MrConvoy"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="Dilrod"]VGChartz never claims the data as their own. They do an estimate, then compare it to the actual NPD numbers. Its stated right on their site.Callous-Bstard

Doesn't change the fact that their weekly numbers are utter BS.

I agree partially, but who else is there to go to for figures? It's not NPD puts the figures on their front page like VGChartz does.

It's ok to still use VGChartz, but only for monthly numbers which are actually based on NPD's numbers. But their weekly numbers are BS.

Well NPD aren't perfect....they simply estimate from a certain number of retailers (they don't even get figures from Walmart..one of the largest game retailers out there)..

None of the figures are 100% correct be it from NPD of VGChartz.

At least VGChartz makes a decent effort..which is more than anyone else has ever tried to do. I applaud them for at least trying to make a sales database.

Of course the irony is that thanks to the NPD now hiding their figures...more and more people will use VGChartz and more official news websites will use their figures.

NPD's number ban is making VGChartz the only show in town...there's nowhere else to go....so they will be further legitimised by the media.

Firstly, statistics is ALL about estimating. With a large enough sample space, you can make predictions to within a remarkably small margin of error, on the order of less than 1% error. Perhaps even less than 0.1% error. You know pre-election polls that presidential candidates run during their campaign? Those only involve a thousand (or at most, a few thousand) people at a time. It doesn't matter that the population of the U.S. is 350 million. Those polls of one or two or three thousand people can still accurately measure the vote divisions to an accuracy of within a few percentage points. That's because polls don't measure actual values, they only measure trends, and the trends demonstrated by a smaller group within a larger group are less and less likely to vary from the overall trend of the larger group as the sample population gets bigger.

NPD covers roughly 60% of the retail population. That is a large enough sample population that any trend they derive from their findings is likely to be very, very, VERY close to the actual trend. VGChartz covers probably a few dozen stores, maybe even over a hundred. Even still, that's not enough to accurately chart a trend at the state level, let alone the national or global levels. That's why VGChartz varies by more than 30%, while NPD probably varies by less than 1%.

[QUOTE="Callous-Bstard"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="MrConvoy"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="Dilrod"]VGChartz never claims the data as their own. They do an estimate, then compare it to the actual NPD numbers. Its stated right on their site.mjarantilla

Doesn't change the fact that their weekly numbers are utter BS.

I agree partially, but who else is there to go to for figures? It's not NPD puts the figures on their front page like VGChartz does.

It's ok to still use VGChartz, but only for monthly numbers which are actually based on NPD's numbers. But their weekly numbers are BS.

Well NPD aren't perfect....they simply estimate from a certain number of retailers (they don't even get figures from Walmart..one of the largest game retailers out there)..

None of the figures are 100% correct be it from NPD of VGChartz.

At least VGChartz makes a decent effort..which is more than anyone else has ever tried to do. I applaud them for at least trying to make a sales database.

Of course the irony is that thanks to the NPD now hiding their figures...more and more people will use VGChartz and more official news websites will use their figures.

NPD's number ban is making VGChartz the only show in town...there's nowhere else to go....so they will be further legitimised by the media.

Firstly, statistics is ALL about estimating. With a large enough sample space, you can make predictions to within a remarkably small margin of error, on the order of less than 1% error. Perhaps even less than 0.1% error. You know pre-election polls that presidential candidates run during their campaign? Those only involve a thousand (or at most, a few thousand) people at a time. It doesn't matter that the population of the U.S. is 350 million. Those polls of one or two or three thousand people can still accurately measure the vote divisions to an accuracy of within a few percentage points. That's because polls don't measure actual values, they only measure trends, and the trends demonstrated by a smaller group within a larger group are less and less likely to vary from the overall trend of the larger group as the sample population gets bigger.

NPD covers roughly 60% of the retail population. That is a large enough sample population that any trend they derive from their findings is likely to be very, very, VERY close to the actual trend. VGChartz covers probably a few dozen stores, maybe even over a hundred. Even still, that's not enough to accurately chart a trend at the state level, let alone the national or global levels. That's why VGChartz varies by more than 30%, while NPD probably varies by less than 1%.

I disagree. The accuracy of figures has as much to do with the type of retailerscovered not just the quantity. I would say that excluding a massive retailer like Walmart must really scew the NPD figures for sales of family titles.

I would certainly hazard a guess that a much larger percentage of sales for games such as The Simpsons or Brain Age come from places like Walmart...because that's where the casual/non-gamer would go to buy games.

I could do a poll asking half the population what their favourite tv show is...but if 90% of those polled are women then it's hardly going to be an accurate representation.

Anyway, regardless of the accuracy of certain figures...VGChartz will become a much more used source by the media...and NPD only have themselves to blame. Most people would rather have a steak than a burger...but if the steak has been taken off the menu then they will settle for the burger.

[QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="Callous-Bstard"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"][QUOTE="MrConvoy"][QUOTE="mjarantilla"]

[QUOTE="Dilrod"]VGChartz never claims the data as their own. They do an estimate, then compare it to the actual NPD numbers. Its stated right on their site.Callous-Bstard

Doesn't change the fact that their weekly numbers are utter BS.

I agree partially, but who else is there to go to for figures? It's not NPD puts the figures on their front page like VGChartz does.

It's ok to still use VGChartz, but only for monthly numbers which are actually based on NPD's numbers. But their weekly numbers are BS.

Well NPD aren't perfect....they simply estimate from a certain number of retailers (they don't even get figures from Walmart..one of the largest game retailers out there)..

None of the figures are 100% correct be it from NPD of VGChartz.

At least VGChartz makes a decent effort..which is more than anyone else has ever tried to do. I applaud them for at least trying to make a sales database.

Of course the irony is that thanks to the NPD now hiding their figures...more and more people will use VGChartz and more official news websites will use their figures.

NPD's number ban is making VGChartz the only show in town...there's nowhere else to go....so they will be further legitimised by the media.

Firstly, statistics is ALL about estimating. With a large enough sample space, you can make predictions to within a remarkably small margin of error, on the order of less than 1% error. Perhaps even less than 0.1% error. You know pre-election polls that presidential candidates run during their campaign? Those only involve a thousand (or at most, a few thousand) people at a time. It doesn't matter that the population of the U.S. is 350 million. Those polls of one or two or three thousand people can still accurately measure the vote divisions to an accuracy of within a few percentage points. That's because polls don't measure actual values, they only measure trends, and the trends demonstrated by a smaller group within a larger group are less and less likely to vary from the overall trend of the larger group as the sample population gets bigger.

NPD covers roughly 60% of the retail population. That is a large enough sample population that any trend they derive from their findings is likely to be very, very, VERY close to the actual trend. VGChartz covers probably a few dozen stores, maybe even over a hundred. Even still, that's not enough to accurately chart a trend at the state level, let alone the national or global levels. That's why VGChartz varies by more than 30%, while NPD probably varies by less than 1%.

I disagree. The accuracy of figures has as much to do with the type of retailerscovered not just the quantity. I would say that excluding a massive retailer like Walmart must really scew the NPD figures for sales of family titles.

I would certainly hazard a guess that a much larger percentage of sales for games such as The Simpsons or Brain Age come from places like Walmart...because that's where the casual/non-gamer would go to buy games.

I could do a poll asking half the population what their favourite tv show is...but if 90% of those polled are women then it's hardly going to be an accurate representation.

Anyway, regardless of the accuracy of certain figures...VGChartz will become a much more used source by the media...and NPD only have themselves to blame. Most people would rather have a steak than a burger...but if the steak has been taken off the menu then they will settle for the burger.

That's why NPD also directly polls consumers in addition to polling retailers. And they take down demographic information to eliminate unknown skewing factors.

Come on, do you really think they haven't thought of this? That isn't even a high school level statistics problem you're talking about.

And don't kid yourself. NO ONE will use VGChartz except for System Wars fanboys. If we're going to use food analogies, if NPD is a steak, then VGChartz isn't even a hamburger. It's a hunk of rotted meat infected with mad cow disease fished out of a vulture's mouth and cooked in a burning trash heap.