Nvidia's cloud research

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FragTycoon

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#51 FragTycoon
Member since 2008 • 6430 Posts

So Nvidia, a company that specializes in pushing graphics still doesn't have anything substantial (with THE INTERNET helping graphics thing) but MS/XBO has it figured out and ready to ship this holiday?

:roll:

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GioVela2010

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#52 GioVela2010
Member since 2008 • 5566 Posts

As a PC gamer, THIS IS a gimmik.

 

Good luck to anyone with a normal internet connection.

 

You gonna need 10x the speed to not hit latency issues.

AMD655
10x what speed?
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deactivated-58e448fd89d82

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#53 deactivated-58e448fd89d82
Member since 2010 • 4494 Posts

Hypothetical.

 

1GB a second may not even be enough.

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edidili

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#54 edidili
Member since 2004 • 3449 Posts

Hypothetical.

 

1GB a second may not even be enough.

AMD655

Huge bandwith has little to do with this. You're not streaming a full video like Onlive here. You're sending some data to be processed which depending on what data it is it might not even surpass few MBs. 

When I render on Autocad on my PC it takes 30 min for the CPU. The data itself, the file is just 200KB.

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deactivated-58e448fd89d82

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#55 deactivated-58e448fd89d82
Member since 2010 • 4494 Posts

[QUOTE="AMD655"]

Hypothetical.

 

1GB a second may not even be enough.

edidili

Huge bandwith has little to do with this. You're not streaming a full video like Onlive here. You're sending some data to be processed which depending on what data it is it might not even surpass few MBs. 

When I render on Autocad on my PC it takes 30 min for the CPU. The data itself, the file is just 200KB.

 

This is real time stuff downloadin/streaming from a source thousands of miles from me, seriously...LOL

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edidili

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#56 edidili
Member since 2004 • 3449 Posts

This is real time stuff downloadin/streaming from a source thousands of miles from me

AMD655

You say that like it's something new and impossible. You do that all the time on MMOs. 

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deactivated-58e448fd89d82

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#57 deactivated-58e448fd89d82
Member since 2010 • 4494 Posts

[QUOTE="AMD655"]

This is real time stuff downloadin/streaming from a source thousands of miles from me

edidili

You say that like it's something new and impossible. You do that all the time on MMOs. 

 

I have never done that on MMO's, and all MMO's ask for data to be stored, and installed on the local PC.

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edidili

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#58 edidili
Member since 2004 • 3449 Posts

[QUOTE="edidili"]

[QUOTE="AMD655"]

This is real time stuff downloadin/streaming from a source thousands of miles from me

AMD655

You say that like it's something new and impossible. You do that all the time on MMOs. 

 

I have never done that on MMO's, and all MMO's ask for data to be stored, and installed on the local PC.

You continuously send and recieve data on a MMO. You're in a huge group you send your data to every other player in the area. The character you have, your position, the damage you're doing. And all those other players are sending the same data to you in real time. 

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deactivated-58e448fd89d82

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#59 deactivated-58e448fd89d82
Member since 2010 • 4494 Posts

[QUOTE="AMD655"]

[QUOTE="edidili"]

You say that like it's something new and impossible. You do that all the time on MMOs. 

edidili

 

I have never done that on MMO's, and all MMO's ask for data to be stored, and installed on the local PC.

You continuously send and recieve data on a MMO. You're in a huge group you send your data to every other player in the area. The character you have, your position, the damage you're doing. And all those other players are sending the same data to you in real time. 

 

Yes, and none of it is graphical data, it is commands send over an internet connection, a line at 80ms+ will be lagging substantially vs a almost zero latency lan game.

 

Work it out, the video was showing a 150ms latency, and this is a local IP being used for internet, and it sure as hell will not be anything slow... it was tested by Nvidia.

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parkurtommo

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#60 parkurtommo
Member since 2009 • 28295 Posts
[QUOTE="AMD655"]

[QUOTE="FoxbatAlpha"] Yes, I didn't feel sad for people that wanted a X1 but didn't have a Internet connection (pre DRM reversal). Why should we let people who live in a cave dictate the finer things gaming?FoxbatAlpha

 

Oh i see, so... a decision should always be correct because it is only appealing to a small amount of people... -____-"

That's the way America does it, that's the way dad did it, and its worked pretty well so far. Tony Stark.

Holy f*ck. stfu already.
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parkurtommo

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#61 parkurtommo
Member since 2009 • 28295 Posts

[QUOTE="AMD655"]

[QUOTE="edidili"]

You say that like it's something new and impossible. You do that all the time on MMOs. 

edidili

 

I have never done that on MMO's, and all MMO's ask for data to be stored, and installed on the local PC.

You continuously send and recieve data on a MMO. You're in a huge group you send your data to every other player in the area. The character you have, your position, the damage you're doing. And all those other players are sending the same data to you in real time. 

Do you realize how much data that is? It's nothing. Streaming games or game data is 100 times, maybe 1000 times more data.
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edidili

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#62 edidili
Member since 2004 • 3449 Posts

 

Yes, and none of it is graphical data, 

AMD655

It is data, doesn't matter what it is used for. Again this is not like Onlive where you basically stream an entire video. The data you send to the server doesn't have to be big at all. Is the processing of that data that is costly in the same way that a 200KB of autocad data takes 30 min to render.

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deactivated-58e448fd89d82

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#63 deactivated-58e448fd89d82
Member since 2010 • 4494 Posts

This is my connection to Houston TX in USA.

 

2866708923.png

 

This is my connection to a local server in the UK.

 

2866711551.png

 

 

Not only was the latency way higher, the line dropped speed massively, and this is just fake commands yet again going across a line, not graphical data that produces latency at 150ms on a local IP.

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edidili

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#64 edidili
Member since 2004 • 3449 Posts

Streaming games or game data is 100 times, maybe 1000 times more data.parkurtommo

Streaming games is, sending data about physics and lighting is not big at all. 

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OctaBech

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#66 OctaBech
Member since 2008 • 276 Posts

[QUOTE="parkurtommo"]Streaming games or game data is 100 times, maybe 1000 times more data.edidili

Streaming games is, sending data about physics and lighting is not big at all. 

Look nVidia said at the presentation that physics among other real time dependent calculations wasn't feasible, indirect lighting is the only thing which worked over the cloud because it's not as prone to latency. Using nVidia's presentation to validate claims about the cloud handling physics would be dishonest. :( For data streaming, how do you think the lighting is returned to the client? It's returned as compressed images, which is just the same as Gaikai returning a fully rendered image, the only advantage is that the indirect light-map pixel resolution doesn't have to be 1:1 (a lower resolution mainly causes flicker in areas with high colour contrast), but it's still a whole lot more data than what a multiplayer game need, let me give you an example: A multiplayer game only need the x, y & z location coordinates, direction vector, animation frame and ID for each object (physics are per usual calculated at the client to save bandwidth/minimize latency at server side), even with 64 players consisting of 9 individual joints (ie. 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 torso, 1 head, 1 hat, 1 backpack, 1 gun) the game will only need to exchange (1+ 3 +3 + 1) * 64 * 9 = 4608numbers per frame. Throw in a 1000 bullets, that would only be an additional (1 + 3 + 3 + 1) * 1000 = 8000numbers. Sending a light-map is the colour space for red, green & blue multiplied with amount of pixels. As I mentioned before it doesn't have to be a perfect 1:1 pixel resolution as the lower resolution only add some shimmer, a 480p light-map should be sufficient for 1080p, but that is still 3 * 640 * 480 = 921600numbers, that's roughly 70 times more data per frame than what the multiplayer game need. :o No compression can make up for that and it'll just add more shimmer. The biggest issue with nVidia's demo is that it only calculates lighting for static environments, what does it do in more dynamic environments like crowded streets with many moving objects? Latency will be more noticeable and worse, the player will have to upload the position and direction and colour combination of each single object (unless we do not want cars and characters and other moving objects like debriefs from explosions to be affected by the light), which is a problem as you can see in this very thread, because most people have rather slow upload speeds. Ps. I used the term 'numbers' to make the comparison less complicated, the object ID in a multiplayer game doesn't need as many bit as let's say the red colour space in a light-map, but the floating point coordinates for objects can very well use more bits for higher precision and so on, but with a x70 difference the point doesn't change.

Edit: watch the video. it absolutely proves the cloud is real.

AD216
If any, nVidia's presentation proves just how immature the technology is to achieve what MS promised; 3-4x processing power increase. nVidia says only indirect lighting is feasible and most internet connections do not come close to the requirements. The sad thing is that PS4 can reach the same result off-line for all players, how you ask? Well if a game runs at 30fps, it has at best 33ms to render a frame, but to maintain a steady frame rate the game will most of the time use <33ms to render the frame, leaving the GPU idle (if one want a steady frame rate that is). As you saw in the video the human eye doesn't register a 200ms latency when it comes to indirect lighting, which gives the PS4 200/33 ~ 6 fames to calculate the light-map. With 3'rd party games being designed to run on the xBox One, the PS4 will even have its 50% performance advantage available for calculating indirect lighting. If a developer is going to bother with paying for servers and design their games for xBox Ones with variable internet connections, then it would not be hard to imagine them using the PS4's extra processing power to do the same effect locally, after all the PS4 comes with tools like SPURs to make this easy for the devs (this is actually what Cerny means when he talks about queues and compute). No one ever said the cloud can't augment the rendering, just that the tech is janky at best and hardly worth the resources, plus the existing Azure grid isn't equipped (with GPUs) for the task.
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HalcyonScarlet

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#67 HalcyonScarlet
Member since 2011 • 13843 Posts

Sony are downplaying it now, pre lauch but they'll have their own in a couple of years (not including Gaikai) and then it'll be a good thing :roll:.

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dovberg

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#68 dovberg
Member since 2009 • 3348 Posts

These kind of threads remind me of the guy that kept pushing onlive a few years back.

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robybaggio

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#69 robybaggio
Member since 2004 • 562 Posts
Cows will be so gimped in a few years time they will probably sit there hyping ps5... whenever that comes out.
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lhughey

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#70 lhughey
Member since 2006 • 4890 Posts

[QUOTE="FoxbatAlpha"][QUOTE="AMD655"]

As a PC gamer, THIS IS a gimmik.

 

Good luck to anyone with a normal internet connection.

 

You gonna need 10x the speed to not hit latency issues.

AMD655

Technology is a gimmick? People without a good Internet connection shouldn't have access to anything cutting edge.

 

So those who cannot get a good internet connection because of area coverage should miss out?

 

You sound like a huge jerk right now.

 

 

Nothing new with this generation of so called humans.

Are you OK with devs holding back on features because some people only have integrated graphics? I'm looking at your PC's spec list and its pretty obvious that you want the best experience possible. How is this different?
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lhughey

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#71 lhughey
Member since 2006 • 4890 Posts

As a PC gamer, THIS IS a gimmik.

 

Good luck to anyone with a normal internet connection.

 

You gonna need 10x the speed to not hit latency issues.

AMD655

I'm not sure I follow you. Internet speed has nothing to do with latency. Latency is like the time it takes for you to press the gas when the light turns green at a stoplight race. It doesn't matter if you have a 200hp car or 2000hp car. Its unrelated.

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lhughey

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#72 lhughey
Member since 2006 • 4890 Posts
Cloud gaming is the future. Currently, its probably possible to run smaller processes against cloud servers, but the number of possibilities will increase quickly. Even hardcore cows know that Sony didn't purchase Gakai for the lol of it.
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robybaggio

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#73 robybaggio
Member since 2004 • 562 Posts

Cloud gaming is the future. Currently, its probably possible to run smaller processes against cloud servers, but the number of possibilities will increase quickly. Even hardcore cows know that Sony didn't purchase Gakai for the lol of it.lhughey

 

 

But Gaikai is setup for streaming games not offloading processing tasks. 

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clyde46

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#74 clyde46
Member since 2005 • 49061 Posts

So Nvidia, a company that specializes in pushing graphics still doesn't have anything substantial (with THE INTERNET helping graphics thing) but MS/XBO has it figured out and ready to ship this holiday?

:roll:

FragTycoon
Nvidia Grid is powering Sony's cloud features.