Proving Graphics Are More Important then Gameplay.

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Actually, the TC never really backed off his opinion that graphics are more important. He just sort of qualified it with an explanation. So you're little joke about what went down in this thread is pretty flawed. It still seems like you are trying to distract from the fact that you neglected to read the OP.

Where are you getting this notion that if one thinks that graphics are more important, they must think that gameplay doesn't matter at all?

GreySeal9

I thought it endorsed the fact that i didnt read the OP.

If gameplay can produce good games with mediocregraphics, then i suppose great graphics can produce great games with mediocre gameplay, you know, since they are more important.

Some people would argue that Bioshock's visuals negated some of the gameplay shortcomings.

That game had great gameplay.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"][QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

Thats because it is. ;)

Zerocrossings

What is your definition of gameplay? It should involve pacing, level designand such, thats why AC isnt good. Its gameplay isnt good.

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] While I'm not in complete agreement with the TC(backbone? really?) Gameplay like anything else is just one aspect. Technically speaking what was really all that wrong with the first Assassin's Creed in terms of core mechanics?(besides the combat being a bit shallow and unsatisfying) or the core mechanics of Mirror's Edge? Nothing really mechanically both games were fine. SO yes the gameplay itself worked for the most part. What didn't work was how the games were paced, how the level design was in each game, the difficulty curves, the mission structures, etc. ultimately leaving the games as more missed opportunities(although ME is kind of cool) than great gameplay experiences. I'm still not siding with graphics though. This gen has too much of an issue with that. Too much focus on graphics. Not enough on the fun and the god damn basics(I'm looking at you Ubisoft. STOP BEING UBISOFT)jg4xchamp

What is your definition of gameplay? It should involve pacing, level designand such, thats why AC isnt good. Its gameplay isnt good.

To me, gameplay is everything besides graphics and sound.While gameplay is everything inside. :)

If a game is still good after muting the sound and turning the models into stickmen, thats an awesome game.

Edit: N+ actually comes to mind now that i mentioned stickmen. :lol: Great game.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"][QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

What is your definition of gameplay? It should involve pacing, level designand such, thats why AC isnt good. Its gameplay isnt good.

Zerocrossings

To me, gameplay is everything besides graphics and sound.While gameplay is everything inside. :)

If a game is still good after muting the sound and turning the models into stickmen, thats an awesome game.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

Those same CIassics have an even more impressive core set of mechanics to back it. Presentation and production values can carry many games for sure, but most games will live and die by there game mechanics and how the game is designed around those mechanics. Graphics are certainly one part of the equation but one that is a larger piece of gamings backbone? **** NO.

Half Life 2s immersive plot would be pointless if it wasn't fun to use the gravity gun, if the action wasn't tightly paced, if the level design for the most part wasn't on point(shaky levels here and there).

Crysis while a massive graphical showcase is a more impressive gameplay showcase because of how versatile the action is in that sandbox. The game(especially the expansion) delivers on a simple concept of "I came, I saw, I conquered"

Uncharted 2 with all its beauty is a great title more so because the shooting mechanics are honestly the best of any third person shooter(yeah I said it), and the pacing of the experience was damn near perfect. Ladies and gentlemen the game may not have much in terms of originality, but man does Naughty Dog know how to craft a kickass game. Makes you wonder why Uncharted 1 was such an average experience(spare me the stupid scores)

Bungie's Halo series has entirely been about it's accessable but hightly satisfying and entertaining gameplay.

Mario, Zelda, Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, Demon's Souls, Mass Effect 2(A superior sequel because the GAMEPLAY is greatly improved), and the list goes on. DO graphics matter? absolutely More important than gameplay? **** no.

The gameplay and game mechanics themselves dictate and drive the entire experience. Everything else is more so to amplify not make up for it. IF it's making up for it. That's not really a good thing.

jg4xchamp

I think graphics are somewhat more important than you do (I don't think it's meant to amplify the experience, I think it's an integral part of the experience that cannot be separated out), but I have to give you props on writing a logical response free of strawmen. Most people in this thread have given a knee-jerk "OMG you dared to put graphics above sacred gameplay! Damn you!" sort of responses, so it's nice to see this kind of response.

I am much the same, but I can be forgiving about other elements if one elements really stands out.

Yeah, the backbone line doesn't make sense. There is no way that graphics are the backbone.

I agree with you about Bioshock and Half-Life 2. Though I wouldn't say the gunplay is crap, it is noticeably weaker than other FPS games. The game mostly succeeds on the creativeness of its design and its immersion factor. Bioshock has stronger gunplay, and the plasmids definitely help make up for the fact that the guplay is weak than many shooters, but it definitely mostly succeeds on the gameplay elements outside of gunplay and the immersion factor and atmosphere, and as you sad, writing. I do have to say that Bioshock 2 makes a valiant effort to make the gunplay more exciting though.

I think gaming design is sort of a tightrope walk between making a game that has good gameplay and good visuals. I think people make the way the two elements work within game design seem more simplistic than it is. I wish there was a game designer here to contribute to a thread like this.

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

To me, gameplay is everything besides graphics and sound.While gameplay is everything inside. :)

If a game is still good after muting the sound and turning the models into stickmen, thats an awesome game.

jg4xchamp

Oh dont get me wrong, graphics are important. Just not as important as gameplay, which is my main problem with the thread.

Also I made a game with zombies in it>N+ :Pjg4xchamp

I need to play it then. I saw a thread about that game vs L4D2. It was amusing.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

I thought it endorsed the fact that i didnt read the OP.

If gameplay can produce good games with mediocregraphics, then i suppose great graphics can produce great games with mediocre gameplay, you know, since they are more important.

Zerocrossings

Some people would argue that Bioshock's visuals negated some of the gameplay shortcomings.

That game had great gameplay.

I would actually agree that many aspects of its gameplay were great such as plasmids. Gunplay wasn't among the best the FPS genre has to offer, but it still was fairly serviceable. However, I feel that Bioshock 2 proves that there was lots of room for improvement in that area.

But the general consensus on Bioshock's gunplay is that is leaves something to be desired. My point is that many people feel that visual elements can make up for a weak gameplay element.

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Some people would argue that Bioshock's visuals negated some of the gameplay shortcomings.

GreySeal9

That game had great gameplay.

I would actually agree that many aspects of its gameplay were great such as plasmids. Gunplay wasn't among the best the FPS genre has to offer, but it still was fairly serviceable. However, I feel that Bioshock 2 proves that there was lots of room for improvement in that area.

But the general consensus on Bioshock's gunplay is that is leaves something to be desired. My point is that many people feel that visual elements can make up for a weak gameplay element.

Its gameplay wasnt weak though. And i suppose it could make it up for the score, graphics has some weightage after all.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Zerocrossings"]

That game had great gameplay.

Zerocrossings

I would actually agree that many aspects of its gameplay were great such as plasmids. Gunplay wasn't among the best the FPS genre has to offer, but it still was fairly serviceable. However, I feel that Bioshock 2 proves that there was lots of room for improvement in that area.

But the general consensus on Bioshock's gunplay is that is leaves something to be desired. My point is that many people feel that visual elements can make up for a weak gameplay element.

Its gameplay wasnt weak though. And i suppose it could make it up for the score, graphics has some weightage after all.

I agree, but I'm not really arguing that its weak. I'm just making an argument about how the game was perceived. I mean, if you read the review of Bioshock on this website, the main crux of it was, "Gunplay can be kind of weak, but there are so many elements that make the game special that is doesn't really matter all that much."

I mostly agree that the games visuals pull you into the experience. But consider a game like SMG2, does not have the graphical level of games like GeoW, GoW, RE5, AC2, etc... Not from a detail or technical proficiency level.

But it still is a 10 game. What you're really talking about is the importance art direction has in games, as the visual media which immerses the players in the game play experience.

I've also said in the past, that it's not about gameplay>graphics or graphics>gameplay. It's that art direction is an integral part of the game play.

Games that get great scores and win GOTY awards are usually games which perform well in all areas, so you're focusing on one aspect of the games you mentioned, but leave out important information that disproves your point. It's like saying 'OoT, SMG2, and GTAIV all had great soundtracks and got perfect scores. Therefore, music is more important than gameplay.'

Well Demons Souls had gamespot game of the year and those graphics kinda sucked. Horrible textures...yentlequible