Reasons why should Sony keep the CELL for the PS4

[QUOTE="Pelon208"]

[QUOTE="dr-professional"] Yes, but still over 25% of the power of the cell is used for other thing then gamiong DURING gaming. Knowing how to wrok with it will not fix the problem. dr-professional

The problem is the lack of RAM and a pice of crap GPU, Agree?

Check the second link in the first post, and wathc the second video, that render was made using only the CELL.

people are still talking about the CELL?BrunoBRS

Yes, but and upgraded one LOL

[QUOTE="dr-professional"][QUOTE="Pelon208"]

The problem is the lack of RAM and a pice of crap GPU, Agree?

Pelon208

Check the second link in the first post, and wathc the second video, that render was made using only the CELL.

[QUOTE="Pelon208"]

[QUOTE="dr-professional"] The little problems add up as well. Not just those 2 big ones. Also to be honest, the Cell would have to be modified anyway to show a real "Next gen" on a next gen system so keeping it as is (Especially since it can't fully be used for gaming for various reaons_ would not be a very good idea. However, slightly modify it make it a tad more open and powerful and maybe the cell could be relevant. But then whole games atrt looking better years after the start of next gen the cell technology even slightly modified would be at a stand still in graphic increases.dr-professional

Check the second link in the first post, and wathc the second video, that render was made using only the CELL.

theres no magic anywhere, Its knowing how things works.

If you ask my grandma of the cellphones works she is going to say somthing like "That thing is art of the devil" but you and I know perfectly how that works.

Its the same with processors, some developers know how to use it and some others don't. That doesn't mean it has some magic thing.

I don't even know if i made my point clear here lol

The PS4 should use an enhanced Cell Engine CPU. 5ghz "12" cores perhaps?

and a GPU performing like SLI GTX 580

[QUOTE="Pelon208"]

[QUOTE="Diviniuz"]No, it will be overpriced and harder for developers to use. markop2003

Developers now have figured out the CELL, I mean the been developing for it for 6 freaking years now.

And Sony had bought factories to create and develop the CELL, so that keeps the cost low (like apple with his A chips)

Apple not only stick the name, they manufacture it by placeing few ready chip dies in to one chip, they didn't buy a chip manufacture company for nothing

I agree.....with the CELL on the PS3 we have play some of the most awesome games in game history....like God of War 3,U2&3,Killzone 2&3.AtariKidX

[QUOTE="dr-professional"][QUOTE="Pelon208"]

Check the second link in the first post, and wathc the second video, that render was made using only the CELL.

Pelon208

theres no magic anywhere, Its knowing how things works.

If you ask my grandma of the cellphones works she is going to say somthing like "That thing is art of the devil" but you and I know perfectly how that works.

Its the same with processors, some developers know how to use it and some others don't. That doesn't mean it has some magic thing.

I don't even know if i made my point clear here lol

Dev's might not like the lack of ram in the PS3 or whatever but I've never heard them complain about the Cell. If they can save money using it again, why not?

[QUOTE="Pelon208"]

[QUOTE="dr-professional"] Which does not make the sliightly 25% of power devs aren;t getting to magically go away and reach them. There is no magic here.dr-professional

theres no magic anywhere, Its knowing how things works.

If you ask my grandma of the cellphones works she is going to say somthing like "That thing is art of the devil" but you and I know perfectly how that works.

Its the same with processors, some developers know how to use it and some others don't. That doesn't mean it has some magic thing.

I don't even know if i made my point clear here lol

Now that you arecalling my statement foolish, ate least i can provide proves for what im saying, you keep sayingthat devs can't get the25%power? really? Prove it.

Dev's might not like the lack of ram in the PS3 or whatever but I've never heard them complain about the Cell. If they can save money using it again, why not?

Pray_to_me

That's my point but some guys don't understand that

[QUOTE="Pray_to_me"]

Dev's might not like the lack of ram in the PS3 or whatever but I've never heard them complain about the Cell. If they can save money using it again, why not?

Pelon208

That's my point but some guys don't understand that

I made this Topic first in the PS3 forum, but I decide to bring it to system wars to have a more "wide" point of view.

First of all, because Sony has spend a ton of money on the CELL, and its a really nice chip.

http://ps4info.com/2011/01/12/ps4-cpu-vs-ps3-cpu/

I know that I sound like in 2005, but the CELL is capable of cool thing, (look the second video of the next link)

http://www.gamersoutlook.com/2011/05/why-cell-processor-is-so-important.html

If sony keeps pushing the development and research of the CELL we will have a really nice and powerfull consoles in the future and with low cost (comparing creating the cell from the ground uo)

http://www.ps4forums.org/16-playstation-4-cell-chip/

What do you think?

Pelon208

My guess is that reusing the cell type CPU would be a mistake. The idea that 'the devs' know how to use it now is flawed. Remember that the sum of core level engineers and programmers that have extensive knowledge and experience with the Cell is miniscule compared to the number of engineers and programmers with experience working on CPU's using a x86 architecture.

For each programmer who's looking to find ways to optimizing software performance on the cell, there's 100 programmers finding ways to optimize performance on X86 CPU's. When a game developer is looking to hire a new programmer or system engineer, there's be 100 times more viable candidates familiar with the x86 architecture than candidates experienced with the cell architecture.

That doesn't mean that it would work just fine in a machine, but Sony would be cutting them off from creating a synergy with the Xbox and the PC. They'd again be in a situation where it's harder and more time consuming to make games work well on the PS3 as opposed to 'the other' platforms (mainly the PC and the Xbox).

[QUOTE="Pelon208"]

[QUOTE="Pray_to_me"]

Dev's might not like the lack of ram in the PS3 or whatever but I've never heard them complain about the Cell. If they can save money using it again, why not?

dr-professional

That's my point but some guys don't understand that

You didn't read the links at all.

[QUOTE="Pelon208"]

I made this Topic first in the PS3 forum, but I decide to bring it to system wars to have a more "wide" point of view.

First of all, because Sony has spend a ton of money on the CELL, and its a really nice chip.

http://ps4info.com/2011/01/12/ps4-cpu-vs-ps3-cpu/

I know that I sound like in 2005, but the CELL is capable of cool thing, (look the second video of the next link)

http://www.gamersoutlook.com/2011/05/why-cell-processor-is-so-important.html

If sony keeps pushing the development and research of the CELL we will have a really nice and powerfull consoles in the future and with low cost (comparing creating the cell from the ground uo)

http://www.ps4forums.org/16-playstation-4-cell-chip/

What do you think?

Mazoch

My guess is that reusing the cell type CPU would be a mistake. The idea that 'the devs' know how to use it now is flawed. Remember that the sum of core level engineers and programmers that have extensive knowledge and experience with the Cell is miniscule compared to the number of engineers and programmers with experience working on CPU's using a x86 architecture.

For each programmer who's looking to find ways to optimizing software performance on the cell, there's 100 programmers finding ways to optimize performance on X86 CPU's. When a game developer is looking to hire a new programmer or system engineer, there's be 100 times more viable candidates familiar with the x86 architecture than candidates experienced with the cell architecture.

That doesn't mean that it would work just fine in a machine, but Sony would be cutting them off from creating a synergy with the Xbox and the PC. They'd again be in a situation where it's harder and more time consuming to make games work well on the PS3 as opposed to 'the other' platforms (mainly the PC and the Xbox).

This is by far the best "anti-cell" response I got. Really nice.

[QUOTE="dr-professional"][QUOTE="Pelon208"]

That's my point but some guys don't understand that

Pelon208

You didn't read the links at all.

TC, are you a developer? No. Do you know anything about PC gaming? No. /thread

[QUOTE="Pelon208"]

[QUOTE="dr-professional"] Ok since you believe we can gain all the power of the PS3 now and agree we are close to realizng its max potential, then why would Sony use it again if we are already at the brink of its power and DEVS NO HOW TO USE IT LIKE YOU ARE SAYING? /thread.dr-professional

You didn't read the links at all.

Well my dear Dr. The point of this was the best financial option for Sony with all the money they spend in the CELL, you drive all the way back to say developers will hate that, even though developers said that they had a harder time with the PS2 than the PS3

TC, are you a developer? No. Do you know anything about PC gaming? No. /thread

USBxDVD

What??

What those this has to do with the developers at all? You miss the point completely. And are you a developer?

[QUOTE="dr-professional"][QUOTE="Pelon208"]

You didn't read the links at all.

Pelon208

Well my dear Dr. The point of this was the best financial option for Sony with all the money they spend in the CELL, you drive all the way back to say developers will hate that, even though developers said that they had a harder time with the PS2 than the PS3

[QUOTE="Pelon208"]

[QUOTE="dr-professional"] You say: "They should use a cell again" I say "These 400 reasons are why it won't work in a next gen console" You lose then say "Teh links prove they know how to use it." I say "Knowing how to use is great but you still don't have the package. you lose and say "Teh links you have no of redeth!' Now I say "If the best devs for teh cell really really really knew how to use and and can be effective at acheiving its full power like you say then why did Naughty Dogg and others publicly say the Cell has not reached its potential yet" you say nothing. Crickets. I say "/thread"dr-professional

Well my dear Dr. The point of this was the best financial option for Sony with all the money they spend in the CELL, you drive all the way back to say developers will hate that, even though developers said that they had a harder time with the PS2 than the PS3

FIRST: Why so mad about this? This is just my opinion not the LAW damint take it easy.

And second IBM and sony have an upgraded CELL processor, that they MIGHT use it for the PS4. That's it.

Calm down Doc.

[QUOTE="USBxDVD"]

TC, are you a developer? No. Do you know anything about PC gaming? No. /thread

Pelon208

What??

What those this has to do with the developers at all? You miss the point completely. And are you a developer?

Well I can assure you the average informed PC gamer wouldnt be making a thread like this. Its a CPU. Its clocked at a certain speed with set specs. There is no hidden potential or untapped power.

When Naughty Dog comes out and says theyve barely reached the limit of the Cell its just PR.

[QUOTE="Pelon208"]

I made this Topic first in the PS3 forum, but I decide to bring it to system wars to have a more "wide" point of view.

First of all, because Sony has spend a ton of money on the CELL, and its a really nice chip.

http://ps4info.com/2011/01/12/ps4-cpu-vs-ps3-cpu/

I know that I sound like in 2005, but the CELL is capable of cool thing, (look the second video of the next link)

http://www.gamersoutlook.com/2011/05/why-cell-processor-is-so-important.html

If sony keeps pushing the development and research of the CELL we will have a really nice and powerfull consoles in the future and with low cost (comparing creating the cell from the ground uo)

http://www.ps4forums.org/16-playstation-4-cell-chip/

What do you think?

Mazoch

My guess is that reusing the cell type CPU would be a mistake. The idea that 'the devs' know how to use it now is flawed. Remember that the sum of core level engineers and programmers that have extensive knowledge and experience with the Cell is miniscule compared to the number of engineers and programmers with experience working on CPU's using a x86 architecture.

For each programmer who's looking to find ways to optimizing software performance on the cell, there's 100 programmers finding ways to optimize performance on X86 CPU's. When a game developer is looking to hire a new programmer or system engineer, there's be 100 times more viable candidates familiar with the x86 architecture than candidates experienced with the cell architecture.

That doesn't mean that it would work just fine in a machine, but Sony would be cutting them off from creating a synergy with the Xbox and the PC. They'd again be in a situation where it's harder and more time consuming to make games work well on the PS3 as opposed to 'the other' platforms (mainly the PC and the Xbox).

You are aware that Xbox 1 was only x86 console EVER made? All current gen consoles work on PowerPC architecture (Yes, Cell is PowerPC just it's unusal type, don't belive? check which for what CPUs Linux version was running on Other OS)

Besides CPU architecture have very little meaning in terms of programer now days, times where people writing programs direcly in Assabler or even dirrecly to machine code where CPU architecture do matter ended after 16-bit era, after that CPUs become too complexto do that. Now C++ rules and goal of C++ is exacly to let people code software without need of thinking about hardware. Not to mention now easy is to code game mostly not depends on hardware but SDK provided by console manufacture.

To use hardware in full potential you need to do best practices for that hardware, which is diffrent for each, that also includes 360 and Windows PC, maybe they got similar SDK (no hardware, they way diffrent) the hardware still got diffrent specs and need to be treat diffrently.As i heared main problem with Cell was fact that software needed to be a lot multi-threaded, so diffrent SPE could take specific threads, Sony's SDK also could be a mess

[QUOTE="Pelon208"]

[QUOTE="USBxDVD"]

TC, are you a developer? No. Do you know anything about PC gaming? No. /thread

USBxDVD

What??

What those this has to do with the developers at all? You miss the point completely. And are you a developer?

Well I can assure you the average informed PC gamer wouldnt be making a thread like this. Its a CPU. Its clocked at a certain speed with set specs. There is no hidden potential or untapped power.

When Naughty Dog comes out and says theyve barely reached the limit of the Cell its just PR.

I know that, who is saying that?? I talk about using an upgrades CELL not the same one.

Read the links dammit

Include it for BC lol.Banjo_Kongfooie

I laughed when I found out what BC meant. I completely forgot this term even existed. I thought you meant Bad Company.

Include it for BC lol.Banjo_Kongfooie

Thats not actually stupid idea :) infact if they won't include Cell in PS4 you can forget about BC, due fact that CPU with SPEs will be needed... and Cell is only one

[QUOTE="Mazoch"]

[QUOTE="Pelon208"]

I made this Topic first in the PS3 forum, but I decide to bring it to system wars to have a more "wide" point of view.

First of all, because Sony has spend a ton of money on the CELL, and its a really nice chip.

http://ps4info.com/2011/01/12/ps4-cpu-vs-ps3-cpu/

I know that I sound like in 2005, but the CELL is capable of cool thing, (look the second video of the next link)

http://www.gamersoutlook.com/2011/05/why-cell-processor-is-so-important.html

If sony keeps pushing the development and research of the CELL we will have a really nice and powerfull consoles in the future and with low cost (comparing creating the cell from the ground uo)

http://www.ps4forums.org/16-playstation-4-cell-chip/

What do you think?

Pelon208

My guess is that reusing the cell type CPU would be a mistake. The idea that 'the devs' know how to use it now is flawed. Remember that the sum of core level engineers and programmers that have extensive knowledge and experience with the Cell is miniscule compared to the number of engineers and programmers with experience working on CPU's using a x86 architecture.

For each programmer who's looking to find ways to optimizing software performance on the cell, there's 100 programmers finding ways to optimize performance on X86 CPU's. When a game developer is looking to hire a new programmer or system engineer, there's be 100 times more viable candidates familiar with the x86 architecture than candidates experienced with the cell architecture.

That doesn't mean that it would work just fine in a machine, but Sony would be cutting them off from creating a synergy with the Xbox and the PC. They'd again be in a situation where it's harder and more time consuming to make games work well on the PS3 as opposed to 'the other' platforms (mainly the PC and the Xbox).

This is by far the best "anti-cell" response I got. Really nice.

Super Perfect Cell confirmed for PS4

[QUOTE="USBxDVD"]

[QUOTE="Pelon208"]

What??

What those this has to do with the developers at all? You miss the point completely. And are you a developer?

Pelon208

Well I can assure you the average informed PC gamer wouldnt be making a thread like this. Its a CPU. Its clocked at a certain speed with set specs. There is no hidden potential or untapped power.

When Naughty Dog comes out and says theyve barely reached the limit of the Cell its just PR.

I know that, who is saying that?? I talk about using an upgrades CELL not the same one.

Read the links dammit

How about this. Use the standard CPU architecture and just give it a 1ghz higher clock and more system memory. Its better than spending all this money on an architecture people have to learn on the job to develop games for. Gamers and developers benefit.

Sony has stated that they are not going to put alot of R&D money into the PS4. Sony will be reusing the Cell architecture to have backward compatibility for PS3 games and allow dev's that understand how to code for the Cell can continue to do so. Sony had invested hundreds of millions of dollars in to the development of the Cell Processor and on building fabrication factories and they did this because they wanted a this item to be a long term investment to be used for at least two console generations and other product uses. Also the PS4 cell will most likely be upgraded , how much no one really knows.. They could just make the Cell run a 4.0 +ghz hen the current 3.2 ghz. They could add more cache for the cell and increase the clock rate. Lastly I believe that Sony will add more SPEs to have an overall amount of 16 SPEs and keeping the clock rates at 3.2 ghz to keep the power to heat ratio down. Now on the GPU front, there has not been any real info about that. They could go with Nvidia again and actually out pace MS with their next Xbox because MS is going with the APU route. Or they could jump onto the AMD bandwagon as the other two companies for gpu's.

[QUOTE="Banjo_Kongfooie"]Include it for BC lol.ShadowriverUB

Thats not actually stupid idea :) infact if they won't include Cell in PS4 you can forget about BC, due fact that CPU with SPEs will be needed... and Cell is only one

Exactly, the new 360 will be BC probably, the WiiU is BC... Does Sony want to be the only one to ignore their previous install base?

if ps3 never had the Cell processor i dont think we would of never seen the true next-gen.

i am down for Sony to keep the Cell for the PS4.

i also hang around alot in PC forums and they are shocked what ps3 is doing with that tiny gpu it has, if it wasnt for the Cell the ps3 graphics would never be this good.

now i can only imagine the Cell with a really nice gpu, we are talking jackpot.

and the best of all, the ps brand in not limited with dx, the devs can simulate any kind of graphical effects without the permission of MS.

if you go and check Intel's tic-toc road of their cpu's you will see that their architecture for Haswell in 2014looks very similar to Cell technology, so that makes you think.

Keep it. Make PS4 backwards compatible too. Make it similar development wise to the PS3, since devs have already gotten a lot of experience with it. Maybe make the development tools more approachsble and generally easier (if they can).

I'd prefer an updated one over something different.

A lot of people here with opinions, but who clearly do not understand the firt thing about software and hardware. I'm not an expert, but at least I have some (non-gamign industry) experience.

The issue with the cell is that it's extremly good at processing a particular type of instructions and doing a very particular type of work. Work that has to be processed in a particular way and has to be very friendly to parallel handling.

And point blank: there is a lot of stuff in a game that just doesn't fit that mold, and having devs waste time trying their best to squeeze that mold to solve other problems, poorly, is time better spent doing other important stuff.

The current PC balance of generic computing device (CPU) and extremely parallel, specialized accellerated computing (GPU), is still top dog.

The cell would be good if the PS4 was being sold to corporations looking for supercomputer parts. For games... not so much.

A lot of people here with opinions, but who clearly do not understand the firt thing about software and hardware. I'm not an expert, but at least I have some (non-gamign industry) experience.

The issue with the cell is that it's extremly good at processing a particular type of instructions and doing a very particular type of work. Work that has to be processed in a particular way and has to be very friendly to parallel handling.

And point blank: there is a lot of stuff in a game that just doesn't fit that mold, and having devs waste time trying their best to squeeze that mold to solve other problems, poorly, is time better spent doing other important stuff.

The current PC balance of generic computing device (CPU) and extremely parallel, specialized accellerated computing (GPU), is still top dog.

The cell would be good if the PS4 was being sold to corporations looking for supercomputer parts. For games... not so much.

Kinthalis

This topic has been debated over and over again since late 2005. There have been threads explaining exactly the points you are making. The US airforce bought these for brute force password cracking for example.

But...but...the graphiczzzz.....the11!!! excluziesavvesz!

Look worse than a PC.

/thread

The Cell proved to be largely a waste of time and money on Sony's part. Not sure why they would want to go with the cell again.Stevo_the_gamer

1.PS3 BC would be easy

2.PS3 GPU sux some PS3 games look better then most 360 games, think what would be if PS3 had Cell and a lot better GPU

3.Cell in PS3 is not the top one that exist

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]The Cell proved to be largely a waste of time and money on Sony's part. Not sure why they would want to go with the cell again.ShadowriverUB

1.PS3 BC would be easy

2.PS3 GPU sux some PS3 games look better then most 360 games, think what would be if PS3 had Cell and a lot better GPU

3.Cell in PS3 is not the top one that exist

The console would have costed a lot more.

Huh?

[QUOTE="ShadowriverUB"]

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]The Cell proved to be largely a waste of time and money on Sony's part. Not sure why they would want to go with the cell again.Stevo_the_gamer

1.PS3 BC would be easy

2.PS3 GPU sux some PS3 games look better then most 360 games, think what would be if PS3 had Cell and a lot better GPU

3.Cell in PS3 is not the top one that exist

The console would have costed a lot more.

Huh?

For the last point he was saying better versions of Cell already exist.

[QUOTE="Kinthalis"]

A lot of people here with opinions, but who clearly do not understand the firt thing about software and hardware. I'm not an expert, but at least I have some (non-gamign industry) experience.

The issue with the cell is that it's extremly good at processing a particular type of instructions and doing a very particular type of work. Work that has to be processed in a particular way and has to be very friendly to parallel handling.

And point blank: there is a lot of stuff in a game that just doesn't fit that mold, and having devs waste time trying their best to squeeze that mold to solve other problems, poorly, is time better spent doing other important stuff.

The current PC balance of generic computing device (CPU) and extremely parallel, specialized accellerated computing (GPU), is still top dog.

The cell would be good if the PS4 was being sold to corporations looking for supercomputer parts. For games... not so much.

brennanhuff

This topic has been debated over and over again since late 2005. There have been threads explaining exactly the points you are making. The US airforce bought these for brute force password cracking for example.

But...but...the graphiczzzz.....the11!!! excluziesavvesz!

Look worse than a PC.

/thread

All I know is whatever SONY did this gen...They DONT need to do next gen. Its been a complete disaster in my opinion for them. Especially when compared to the praise and dominance they had the last 2 gens..

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]The Cell proved to be largely a waste of time and money on Sony's part. Not sure why they would want to go with the cell again.ShadowriverUB

1.PS3 BC would be easy

2.PS3 GPU sux some PS3 games look better then most 360 games, think what would be if PS3 had Cell and a lot better GPU

3.Cell in PS3 is not the top one that exist

[QUOTE="ShadowriverUB"]

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]The Cell proved to be largely a waste of time and money on Sony's part. Not sure why they would want to go with the cell again.Stevo_the_gamer

1.PS3 BC would be easy

2.PS3 GPU sux some PS3 games look better then most 360 games, think what would be if PS3 had Cell and a lot better GPU

3.Cell in PS3 is not the top one that exist

The console would have costed a lot more.

Huh?

Fair enough

The cell has been upgraded in the past 5 years.They have ones considerably better than the one used in the PS3. Not sure why that wasn't obvious.

[QUOTE="Stevo_the_gamer"]The Cell proved to be largely a waste of time and money on Sony's part. Not sure why they would want to go with the cell again.ShadowriverUB

1.PS3 BC would be easy

2.PS3 GPU sux some PS3 games look better then most 360 games, think what would be if PS3 had Cell and a lot better GPU

3.Cell in PS3 is not the top one that exist

LOL.

Yeah, that's all Sony needs to do. Use a more powerful cell for the PS4 so the launch price can be $600 or more. They will be right where they are now real quick.

Dead last

And PS3 games look better than most 360 games? News to me. Every game I have played on my PS3 looks the same as 360 games. What I do know is neither console looks as good as a PC.Keep drinking the kool aid though.

Man things never change around here. Ever since that fake Killzone 2 video in 2005.

Lems out in full force today, eh?

For the last point he was saying better versions of Cell already exist.

Giant_Panda