So, once Nintendo releases the most powerful console available...

[QUOTE="theuncharted34"]

[QUOTE="charizard1605"] You'd tell me if you were, wouldn't you?charizard1605

yes. I'd also tell you if I was batman. ...*hint*

And just who is this imposter?? :P:P

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="evilross"]

So if Nintendo does put out a console that can output in HD and make pretty looking games, for Nintendo fans, graphics suddenly matter?

evilross

All fans change their priorities to coincide with their favorite system maker. ;)

My personal opinion is that Microsoft and Sony should get together and make a console with Sony building the hardware and Microsoft providing the online service and support. And Nintendo should get out of the home console market and make handhelds and become a developer/publisher for console versions of their first party IP's...

But everyone can dream of a perfect world right?

Graphics won't matter any more. correct?gensigns

So wen the PS2 was the weakest piece of hardware compared with the GC and Xbox.. graphics didn't matter, right? So wen the PS3 hit, and now Sony fanboys are obsessed with graphics.. they still don't matter for Sony fanboys, right?

Time always changes, man.

AMD Radeon HD 5800, 6.287 million transisiors per mm^2

AMD Radeon HD 6800, 6.67 million transisiors per mm^2

NVIDIA Geforce GTX460, 5.31 million transisiors per mm^2 (die size is larger than Radeon HD5800)

------------------------------------------

AMD easily beats NVIDIA in transisiors per mm^2.

ronvalencia

I like your posts, man, props. Always informative.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="evilross"]

So if Nintendo does put out a console that can output in HD and make pretty looking games, for Nintendo fans, graphics suddenly matter?

evilross

All fans change their priorities to coincide with their favorite system maker. ;)

My personal opinion is that Microsoft and Sony should get together and make a console with Sony building the hardware and Microsoft providing the online service and support. And Nintendo should get out of the home console market and make handhelds and become a developer/publisher for console versions of their first party IP's...

But everyone can dream of a perfect world right?

And then a year later Sony and Microsoft will launch their consoles which will be 5x the power of the new Nintendo one.

Wasdie

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

[QUOTE="NintendoNite"] which will cost $1000NintendoNite

22 nm process tech yields cheaper Radeon HD 6870 i.e 140 mm^2 die size which is about same size as thecurrent(40nm process tech) Radeon HD 4770's 137 mm^2 die size. 4770 GDDR5 version rivals Radeon HD 4830 and Geforce GTS 250. XBOX 360 Slim's XCGPU die size is 169 mm^2.

nintendo is tha lil homie......microsoft and sony is not slightly threatened by them at all

If Nintendo manages to get a decent enough user base and a large enough game library (not to mention a price cut), then by the time sony and microsoft do their thang it won't matter how powerful the consoles are.

To fight with ninty's console 2 years after release, sony and microsoft's offerings will have to match the price that the wii would be selling at that point, OR at least be so significantly better to justify the extra $ and draw away the non-loyal part of ninty's user base. not only that, but they'll also need to have a great launch line-up.

Like another guy said, this is just like the situation with the pc-engine and the nes.

[QUOTE="silversix_"]Why do you compare next gen to current gen? Its like comparing 360 to GC, which have better graphics? When 720 and ps4 is out then compare it to Wii 2 which will be crushed as always.tomarlyn

Multiplats will be compared for better or for worse. If they're the same game on all three systems why can't they be compared? Hermits will do this all the time when the BF3 console pics are finally shown and PC tech is years ahead.

Wii 2 gets the best version of a console multiplat - Cows and Lemmings: ''well duh, its a new console''

Wii 2 gets a multiplat that looks no better than the opposition - Cows and Lemmings: ''lol @ Nintendo's next-gen console''

So either Wii 2 gets compared with the other two consoles this gen or it gets compared with the PC. It will be stuck between a rock and a hard place one way or the other as far as the system war goes.

100% this.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

And then a year later Sony and Microsoft will launch their consoles which will be 5x the power of the new Nintendo one.

StealthMonkey4

Lmao, this is probably what will end up happening.:lol:

After reading some of the comments in here, do people think the jump from 360/PS3 to PS4/Nextbox will be as huge as the jump from PS2/Xbox to PS3/360? Personally I don't think so.

After reading some of the comments in here, do people think the jump from 360/PS3 to PS4/Nextbox will be as huge as the jump from PS2/Xbox to PS3/360? Personally I don't think so.

Kingpin0114

[QUOTE="Kingpin0114"]

After reading some of the comments in here, do people think the jump from 360/PS3 to PS4/Nextbox will be as huge as the jump from PS2/Xbox to PS3/360? Personally I don't think so.

SaltyMeatballs

graphics have never mattered lol ,

but once wii 2 comes heres whats gonna happen

720 and ps4 wont be out til 2014-5 ,

leaving nintendo the crown for 8th gen , and the market on hold for 3 years!

once they do finally pop out with powerful consoles these things well be to darn expensive for me to care about and developers will all be saying the same thing they said about dreamcast " too expensive for me sorry" and wii 2 would be the standard console theyll be developing for just like 360 was the first out , 360 became the standard console 3rd party used for all of its multiplats as a result ps3 was left with sloppy seconds,

and theres nothing microsoft or sony can do now because if they do jump early , chances are they will alienate millions who bought kenict and move

and make these consumers mad ,

and still left with a console that isnt much more powerful then ps3 360 , as a result nintendo will still win in the end

cause one simple reason-innovation that same reason nintendo was able to get away with releasing snes later then genesis and wii later then 360 and walking away victorious

and the reason i say ps4 720 stands no chance over wii 2 is because wii 2 will have its established fanbase and library

also maybe a few price drops from the 300 price point its likely to cost , -which is in line with 360 ps3 , and with better stuff under the hood , nintnedo has their ace of spades for sure this time there isnt one thing in this world that nintnedo loves is when competition hesitates because they made one simple mistake the previous gen

you want to know what the mistake ms and sony made this gen that lead nintendo to victory

look no further then just opting for better visuals then deciding it was best to jump into motion controls 4 yrs after wii had already been established as a seller ,

and then wanting to do a 10 yr life cycle , this has been on my mind for yrs and i knew it was gonna happen the minute they wanted to do a 10 yr life cycle i knew theyd make a mistake cause nintendo does their next console every 5 ,

this puts wii 3 not even within half of a 10 yr life cycle of ps4 720 , chances are n8 will be out at the end of those next 2s life cycle (lets see )
wii 2 will most likeyl run til 2017

ps4 720 2014-15 launch , (wii3 is 2-3 yrs after wards) they probably want to do 10 yrs again ,

2025 -ps5 next xbox , nintendo will run probably5yrs with wii 3which by calculations -launches2yrs after ps4 -720 2017 plus 5 -2023 ,

so nintendo will be another console ahead! crazy huh , smart to!

they are very calculating vipers they are

if these calculations become true --- nintendo will have 8 consoles out by the time sony has its5th ready to launch and ms only has its 4th

[QUOTE="gensigns"]Graphics won't matter any more. correct?Lucianu

So wen the PS2 was the weakest piece of hardware compared with the GC and Xbox.. graphics didn't matter, right? So wen the PS3 hit, and now Sony fanboys are obsessed with graphics.. they still don't matter for Sony fanboys, right?

Time always changes, man.

AMD Radeon HD 5800, 6.287 million transisiors per mm^2

AMD Radeon HD 6800, 6.67 million transisiors per mm^2

NVIDIA Geforce GTX460, 5.31 million transisiors per mm^2 (die size is larger than Radeon HD5800)

------------------------------------------

AMD easily beats NVIDIA in transisiors per mm^2.

ronvalencia

I like your posts, man, props. Always informative.

[QUOTE="SaltyMeatballs"][QUOTE="Kingpin0114"]

After reading some of the comments in here, do people think the jump from 360/PS3 to PS4/Nextbox will be as huge as the jump from PS2/Xbox to PS3/360? Personally I don't think so.

PC_Otter

This gen is already focused on cpu power thats why we have teh cell being bottlenecked by its crappy 7800gt and 512mb of ram. As for the differences in console and PC gaming being minimal, thats because games are made with the lowest common denominator in mind, PC games or any games for that matter will not look as good until this gen's consoles die and the next wave is released.

[QUOTE="PC_Otter"]

[QUOTE="SaltyMeatballs"] Nope. Look at those $600 PC threads, yes a good PC but not exactly "next gen" worthy, so how much would custom hardware which would be "next gen" worthy for a good console price cost?NanoMan88

This gen is already focused on cpu power thats why we have teh cell being bottlenecked by its crappy 7800gt and 512mb of ram. As for the differences in console and PC gaming being minimal, thats because games are made with the lowest common denominator in mind, PC games or any games for that matter will not look as good until this gen's consoles die and the next wave is released.

...we wont have stupid 360 vs PS3 threads anymore.

[QUOTE="SaltyMeatballs"][QUOTE="Kingpin0114"]

After reading some of the comments in here, do people think the jump from 360/PS3 to PS4/Nextbox will be as huge as the jump from PS2/Xbox to PS3/360? Personally I don't think so.

PC_Otter

Xbox 360's PPE X3 CPU is crippled with 1.6Ghz shared L2 cache.

On "bill of material" issues

1. AMD Llano(quad K10.5 with 4MB L2 cache, upto 400 SPs, using 32nm process) APU's 170 mm^2 die size is similar to Xbox 360 Slim's XCGPU 169 mm^2 die size(using 45nm process).

2. AMD Radeon HD 4770 (RV740, 640 SPs, support for GDDR5, 960 GFLOPS raw compute power ) has die size of 137 mm^2 (using 40nm process).

3. AMD Radeon HD 5770/6770(800 SPs,1200-to-1340 GFLOPS raw compute power) has die size of 166 mm^2 (using 40nm process).

4. AMD Radeon HD 6670 (480 SPs, 768 GFLOPS raw compute power) has die size of 118 mm^2 (using 40nm process).

5. AMD Radeon HD 6570 (400 SPs, 624 GFLOPS raw compute power) has die size of 104 mm^2 (using 40nm process).

6. PCB cost remains about the same i.e. like the old Radeon X1600 or Xbox 360, the latest mainstream AMD Radeon HD 6770 still sports 128bit external bus.

Practical 1TFLOPS with AMD Stream (near-the-metal programming) thin layer and Radeon HD 4870 (RV770).http://forum.beyond3d.com/archive/index.php/t-54842.html

Like Intel Itanium (VLIW3/EPIC), VLIW5 architecture in AMD GPUs is sensitive to software side optimisations. Recent Radeon HDs has additional cache to maximize GpGPU type workloads.

Well the graphics king on that console will matter, but the PS3 and 360 will still be duking it out.

[QUOTE="NanoMan88"]

[QUOTE="PC_Otter"] Next gen needs to focus less on graphical power (1080p at 30 fps is fine), and more on CPU power. Wii 2 could be the foundation of that next generation if it was to use a Fusion APU + dedicated GPU, but alas, it probably won't, though it could be done for under $300 easy.

PC_Otter

This gen is already focused on cpu power thats why we have teh cell being bottlenecked by its crappy 7800gt and 512mb of ram. As for the differences in console and PC gaming being minimal, thats because games are made with the lowest common denominator in mind, PC games or any games for that matter will not look as good until this gen's consoles die and the next wave is released.

AMD Radeon HDs is not an old school GPU e.g. protein simulator can be run these GPUs.

AMD Radeon HD 4770 (RV740) say Hi on PS3's Fold @ Home CELL benchmarks...

Tc, how does that work?

...we wont have stupid 360 vs PS3 threads anymore.

InfinityMugen

I think Sony and Microsoft won't be putting out expense console's next time. Expect $400 max.

And of they capture the third-parties, what will it matter? foxhound_fox

[QUOTE="PC_Otter"]

[QUOTE="NanoMan88"]

This gen is already focused on cpu power thats why we have teh cell being bottlenecked by its crappy 7800gt and 512mb of ram. As for the differences in console and PC gaming being minimal, thats because games are made with the lowest common denominator in mind, PC games or any games for that matter will not look as good until this gen's consoles die and the next wave is released.

ronvalencia

[QUOTE="Sandvichman"][QUOTE="gensigns"]Graphics won't matter any more. correct?tomarlyn

I don't get the point of your posts. It's like you keep on spouting facts that many already know in an effort to prove your intelligence/knowledge or something. I would concede to the idea that you certainly know more than I do, but you're trying way to hard and talking to wrong person about this stuff. It's the real noobs you should be aiming your discussion at, not the choir. As far as BOM goes, I would think such a list would fall under $300 after the product is put on the shelf (not counting research and software development). While I might be a bit misguided, I think at or better than neutral cost is possible: Case Blu-Ray drive Llano APU 1 GB GDDR5 system RAM on 2x 64 bit memory bus (assuming Llano is GDDR5 capable, which is most likely not). Juniper GPU 1 GB GDDR5 VRAM on 128 bit memory bus motherboard PSU (probably 100-125W?) The real problem is what the controller cost is. I'm very reserved in belief about the controllers having screens. The cost would be so high, especially when buying one on it's own.

PC_Otter

The issue was the call for more CPU performance (Intel/IBM would like that) against current AMD/NV GpGPUs..

Difference between DX9c vs DX10 workload example,

On PS3, Geforce 7's CPU side was boosted/fixed/patched by CELL's 6 SPEs.

But on modern gaming PC architecture, the GPU hasthe priority over the CPU. Crysis 2 PC DX9 only doesn't help the workload shift. DX11's compute shader shifts additional workload towards the GPU(only when the games are optimised towards DX11).

Assuming the rumours are true, Nintendo N6 is a fix hardware platform with AMD Radeon HD R700 GPU (largest silicon consumer in the console).

I specifically meant more CPU-like performance (hence my recommendation of Fusion as a central/main processor). I don't know if the hair algorithm you posted is best done on a single GPU or with the rendering load on it's own GPU and the actual simulation on another GPU, but I wouldn't have a single Fusion processor by itself for what I would like to see. The x86 cores and SIMDs would be fighting too much for bandwidth, and I would want a dedicated GPU that can render to it's best degree without having to mess around with GPGPU getting in the way. Also, Juniper or RV740, or whatever Southern Islands equivalent beat the living **** out of Xenos and RSX, hence my desire to see Juniper in the Wii 2.

I agree with AMD Juniper in the Wii 2, but there's a higher probability that the N6 may go for the cheaper option e.g. RV740 which it has about 80 percert of Juniper's raw compute power, no "DirectX11" premium, current GDDR5 memory controller support and 40 nm TSMC design. RV740 can be overclocked to catch up to 4850 (RV770 Pro, GDDR4).

RV730 doesn't support GDDR5, it may take redesign to support 40nm TSMC and GDDR5 memory types.For 320 SP GPU segment (e.g. Radeon HD 5550), AMD recycled 400 SP part and crippled a block 80 SPs. AMD didn't spend the $$ updating the old 55nm basedRV730 part.

If PS3's games uses thin-layer LibCGM for NVIDIA RSX, why not AMD Stream? I want to see a fat AMD Radeon HD GpGPU (or NVIDIA GpGPU for that matter) in a console programing environment.

Let's see if a modern PC GpGPU can show its raw performance with optimisations in games... Also, more optimized games for AMD GPU side i.e. to counter NVIDIA's "The Way It's Meant To Be Played".

If the Wii 2 release is 2012, I would think Nintendo would skip RV740 or Juniper for the Southern Islands equivalent so they have a 28 nm GPU. 40 nm is small, but I'm sure Nintendo still wants to keep the power footprint small, hence I would think OCing RV740 to catch the 4850 or Juniper would be out of the question, unless the power needs hardly jump and their thermal management system is good enough. I don't think Nintendo wants to risk an MS style RRoD fiasco.

I assume Juniper won't see 28 nm (unless it's reused for S. Islands) and I wonder if either it or RV740 would be ready for a 28 nm, as I know changing processes can mean problems in incorporating gates and transistors originally designed to a larger node with different materials.

Dammit I want info on Wii 2, it's killing me!

And then a year later Sony and Microsoft will launch their consoles which will be 5x the power of the new Nintendo one.

Wasdie

This is a funny thing to say. You gave Coolyfett a massive chuckle......Nintendo & Power should not be in the same sentence.

In the end, my desire for a GPGPU heavy Nintendo console is for the benefit of PC gaming. Especially for AMD, it's gone way underused, though Fusion I don't think will do much for the gaming side of GPGPU, more media functions than anything. It would be incredibly ironic to see Intel gamers abandon Intel based systems for Trinity Fusion systems so they can get the benefits of AMD GPGPU and use a dedicated graphics card with it.

In the end, my desire for a GPGPU heavy Nintendo console is for the benefit of PC gaming. Especially for AMD, it's gone way underused, though Fusion I don't think will do much for the gaming side of GPGPU, more media functions than anything. It would be incredibly ironic to see Intel gamers abandon Intel based systems for Trinity Fusion systems so they can get the benefits of AMD GPGPU and use a dedicated graphics card with it.

PC_Otter

How is something like that really going to benefit pc gaming, though? No matter what ANY of these next gen consoles ship with, they are made to endure a 5 year(give or take) lifecycle. Your statement may be true at this point in time, but shortly after these consoles are released, people will be saying the same thing but with something else. It's the profit that consoles bring in that hold pc gaming back.

[QUOTE="PC_Otter"]

In the end, my desire for a GPGPU heavy Nintendo console is for the benefit of PC gaming. Especially for AMD, it's gone way underused, though Fusion I don't think will do much for the gaming side of GPGPU, more media functions than anything. It would be incredibly ironic to see Intel gamers abandon Intel based systems for Trinity Fusion systems so they can get the benefits of AMD GPGPU and use a dedicated graphics card with it.

Heirren

How is something like that really going to benefit pc gaming, though? No matter what ANY of these next gen consoles ship with, they are made to endure a 5 year(give or take) lifecycle. Your statement may be true at this point in time, but shortly after these consoles are released, people will be saying the same thing but with something else. It's the profit that consoles bring in that hold pc gaming back.

[QUOTE="tomarlyn"][QUOTE="Sandvichman"] Nobody will compare the wii 2 with a 6 year old console. Heirren

[QUOTE="Heirren"]

[QUOTE="PC_Otter"]

In the end, my desire for a GPGPU heavy Nintendo console is for the benefit of PC gaming. Especially for AMD, it's gone way underused, though Fusion I don't think will do much for the gaming side of GPGPU, more media functions than anything. It would be incredibly ironic to see Intel gamers abandon Intel based systems for Trinity Fusion systems so they can get the benefits of AMD GPGPU and use a dedicated graphics card with it.

PC_Otter

How is something like that really going to benefit pc gaming, though? No matter what ANY of these next gen consoles ship with, they are made to endure a 5 year(give or take) lifecycle. Your statement may be true at this point in time, but shortly after these consoles are released, people will be saying the same thing but with something else. It's the profit that consoles bring in that hold pc gaming back.

I hear where your coming from, but I still think the only thing that will benefit pc gaming is more games being made specifically for the platform. I remember back when the pc had games like Ghost Recon, and then later the xbox would get a crappy version of it. My point is that in 4 years, PCs will be so ahead of "project cafe" that we will be in teh same place we are now.

[QUOTE="PC_Otter"]

[QUOTE="Heirren"]

How is something like that really going to benefit pc gaming, though? No matter what ANY of these next gen consoles ship with, they are made to endure a 5 year(give or take) lifecycle. Your statement may be true at this point in time, but shortly after these consoles are released, people will be saying the same thing but with something else. It's the profit that consoles bring in that hold pc gaming back.

Heirren

I hear where your coming from, but I still think the only thing that will benefit pc gaming is more games being made specifically for the platform. I remember back when the pc had games like Ghost Recon, and then later the xbox would get a crappy version of it. My point is that in 4 years, PCs will be so ahead of "project cafe" that we will be in teh same place we are now.

With another few years of the PS3 and 360, the PC could definitley gain alot of ground with the mainstream gamer and I think we'll see more exclusives than usual or at least much better PC versions of multiplatform titles. I think with the Wii HD around, with much closer parity to where PC gaming is would be highly beneficial to the current state of PC gaming. PC Gaming has reaped some benefits with multiplatforming, since console games in the past were alot better about production values outside of gameplay (cutscenes, voice acting). since it was so crucial to game success on the console platforms. I'm glad to see that trickle into the PC space, and the PC space in turn had a HUGE influence on console game production. Also, we have plenty of games to play on PC with multiplatforming around. Yes, they don't make the best use of our quad cores or Radeon 6970s/Geforce GTX 580s, but many of them I've very glad to have around anyways, it means I can spend more time on my PC, and not need a console where my options are thinner on how I go about configuring my experience.

[QUOTE="Heirren"]

[QUOTE="PC_Otter"] PC games are inherently tied to whatever level of capability consoles are because of the nature of multiplatforming. Getting a console out that immediately gives developers AMD GPGPU capabilities means that those developers can use that code generally immediately on the PC when the proper hardware is present. There isn't enough incentive out there for devs to do OpenCL GPGPU on AMD's current graphics line up (product penetration and game usage), but having a second platform that supports such endeavors means a higher incentive to implement across a wider range of products and users, like how porting between the 360 and PC is easily handled.

Considering the Wii 2 is slated to use an AMD/ATi graphics processor, it's very likely that the PC and Wii 2 will see a beneficial relationship in enhanced multiplatform titles, with the 360 and PS3 getting the "lesser" versions. Yes, the Wii 2 won't use DX (though it'll probably have OpenGL and OpenCL available to it). With GPGPU capabilities between the Wii 2 and PC, this relationship would be even closer. Devs need a stable platform to push GPGPU, Wii 2 could give them this, and it'll immediately trickle into the PC gaming space. However, this very much rides on Wii 2 having a Fusion APU and support for OpenCL in the Wii 2 devkits, though even without a Fusion APU, it could be done on the GPU if Nintendo allows it since Radeon 4xxx and beyond products all support OpenCL 1.1.

PC_Otter

I hear where your coming from, but I still think the only thing that will benefit pc gaming is more games being made specifically for the platform. I remember back when the pc had games like Ghost Recon, and then later the xbox would get a crappy version of it. My point is that in 4 years, PCs will be so ahead of "project cafe" that we will be in teh same place we are now.

Yet production on a console would be higher, no? The current trend demands theatrics. I don't get that same vibe from pc games. In fact, you walk into bestbuy and they are in a completely different section. There's so much more marketing in console games, as well.

[QUOTE="PC_Otter"]

[QUOTE="Heirren"]

I hear where your coming from, but I still think the only thing that will benefit pc gaming is more games being made specifically for the platform. I remember back when the pc had games like Ghost Recon, and then later the xbox would get a crappy version of it. My point is that in 4 years, PCs will be so ahead of "project cafe" that we will be in teh same place we are now.

Heirren

Yet production on a console would be higher, no? The current trend demands theatrics. I don't get that same vibe from pc games. In fact, you walk into bestbuy and they are in a completely different section. There's so much more marketing in console games, as well.

if the xbox 360 versions come on top then ur on some serious meds,

the wii is said to out perform both of these ,

and some third party cryteck said they want more power so guess what , theyll get timesplitters 4 and do it on wii 2 ,

why because its the most powerful of the 4 lol wii is still in the equation lol

the only thing that matters is when microsoft releases its new system it will own both nintendo and sony systems just like it has this gen

No one will care, it will still be a console with old hardware