This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="TheLordHimself"][QUOTE="SER69"]"MGS4 has '90 minute' cut-scenes"
....movies. Not games. That's really next-gen.
TyrantDragon55
The 90 mins thing has been debunked already...
Yeah, but before it was a lot of people were actually defending the idea of a 90 minute long cut-scene.
Alot of people were not the majority. Most agreed since there would be nothing to do about it at this stage anyway. No way would I watch a single scene that long.
My programming instructor always said it's a bad idea to take the control out of the users hands. I agree with what this guy said, thank you for that quote.in the eyes of a game designer, it is a very bad feature and a very bad move especially when it's straight 1 hour. Now i'm sure MGS fans will crave for a MGS movie because of this. anyway, i don't know if it's true. The bad thing is it hinders the feeling of immersion. Movies are passive while video games are immersive and active. When a game becomes more like a movie than a normal or regular video game then it's already wrong.
From the book Fundamentals of Game Design by Ernest Adams and Andrew Rolling:
"Commandment: Don't design a game to show off your skills as a film director or an author. Design a game to entertain by giving the player things to do. Always give the player more gameplay than narration. The player, not the story, is the star of the show."
lordlors
[QUOTE="juno84"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="juno84"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="juno84"]If you accept gaming as a medium for storytelling then you should have no problem with cutscenes as long as it is quality, has a good production value, and is relevant to the story at hand. goblaa
what if you dont?
Then stick to story-light games. There is a pretty big divide between art and games. Games have tendency to cross over into both territories. A game can simply be a game and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I've liked many sports, racing, fighting games, and multiplayer FPSes with no SP at all. I'm not going to knock a game for not telling a story, but I'm also not going to knock games for striving to do so.
I don't knock a game for trying to tell a story either, but not at the expense of 'play'. It bothers me when devs talk as if the whole purpose of games is to turn them into a movie like story telling device, only to turn around and tell a terrible story. If people are so interested in telling a story or great settings or deep character development, why make a game? Why not use a medium that's better suited like a movie, or a book, or a comic, or an anime?
Well, I would say the simple answer is immersion. It's just a different medium. You can tell stories with movies, anime, manga, books, or video games. Video games involve you in the story more so than other mediums do.
To a point yes, but story wise, I have yet to see anything to be immersed by in a game...or at least worth being immersed by.
I've seen games immerse me in their "play" with great visual and audio design or great gameplay design, but never immerse me in their story. At least not in a way that couldn't be done much much better in a different medium.
I'll agree with that. Most games tell terrible rehashed stories with the same concept and bland characters (I'm looking at your FPSers...). There are, of course, exceptions.
I seriously don't know how people can even begin to defend a 90 min cutscene in a VIDEO GAME!AAllxxjjnnLike I said they are rabid fans. I have nothing against the game, i honestly hope it is as great a game as the hype is projecting. Even though it is not 90 min. long, there is still a lot of time spent watching, and not playing. For the fans that like this, i am glad they get what they like. more power to them. I just don't see anyone but fans of this series to have praise for this game. There is going to be a lot of people who love this, a lot of people who just like the game, but a lot are going to go somewhere else. JUST MY OPINION!!!!!
[QUOTE="juno84"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="juno84"]If you accept gaming as a medium for storytelling then you should have no problem with cutscenes as long as it is quality, has a good production value, and is relevant to the story at hand. lordlors
what if you dont?
Then stick to story-light games. There is a pretty big divide between art and game. Video games have tendency to cross over into both territories. A game can simply be a game and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I've liked many sports, racing, fighting games, and multiplayer FPSes with no SP at all. I'm not going to knock a game for not telling a story, but I'm also not going to knock games for striving to do so.
please read my post in the previous page. if you mean 90 or 60 minutes cutscene straight is no problem, then you have a terrible view of game design. otherwise, yes cutscenes are useful and effective in a story-driven game provided it is not very long like 60-90 mins straight.
Contrary to what you believe, what constitutes as too much or too little is entirely subjective... and I can say that objectively. There are no 'set in stone' rules for game design. It's funny that I'm even argueing when I agree that that sounds like quite a long cutscene. I won't really know if it'd bother me until I see it.
Even if it was true...
I absolutely love MGS cutscenes. If it didn't drag on or anything and wasn't one of those worthless cutscenes that are used to catch you up with the story if you dozed off or just to break up gameplay, I would have no problem watching a 90 minute cutscene.
And if has to be in a story that I actually care about. Like if a 90 minute cutscene was in Halo 3... I doubt I'd watch mor than 10 minutes of it because I don't care at all for Halo's story. But I love MGS's story, and I care a lot for it. I have no problem with lengthy cutscenes in MGS games.
[QUOTE="juno84"]If you accept gaming as a medium for storytelling then you should have no problem with cutscenes as long as it is quality, has a good production value, and is relevant to the story at hand.
The reason gaming is so often not accepted as an art form is because art strives to illicit complex responses from people. If the only thing a game illicits from you is "I shot the F*** out of that guy" then it really is not art.
sonicmj1
I have no problem with cutscenes in general. Cutscenes can be used to good effect in communicating a story in ways that are difficult or impossible to do in-game, and can also serve as a pacing mechanism and a reward mechanism for gameplay.
But beyond a certain point, cutscenes cease to become something to supplement gameplay, and become a dominating force in the game, trying to pull it in a film kind of direction. When that happens, something is wrong.
The Metal Gear Solid games have continually skirted on the edge of that boundary, and have occasionally crossed it. Non-interactive cutscenes going any further than the already-extreme examples in MGS2 and MGS3 would be damaging to the pacing of the game, and to the cohesion of the gameplay experience as a whole.
Games can evoke complex responses from people without having to resort to cutscenes, or without having to rely on them exclusively to tell their tale. If you need to stick a full-length movie in your game to evoke a complex response, your message would probably be better served by an actual film than by the medium of videogames.
[QUOTE="juno84"]If you accept gaming as a medium for storytelling then you should have no problem with cutscenes as long as it is quality, has a good production value, and is relevant to the story at hand.
The reason gaming is so often not accepted as an art form is because art strives to illicit complex responses from people. If the only thing a game illicits from you is "I shot the F*** out of that guy" then it really is not art.
sonicmj1
I have no problem with cutscenes in general. Cutscenes can be used to good effect in communicating a story in ways that are difficult or impossible to do in-game, and can also serve as a pacing mechanism and a reward mechanism for gameplay.
But beyond a certain point, cutscenes cease to become something to supplement gameplay, and become a dominating force in the game, trying to pull it in a film kind of direction. When that happens, something is wrong.
The Metal Gear Solid games have continually skirted on the edge of that boundary, and have occasionally crossed it. Non-interactive cutscenes going any further than the already-extreme examples in MGS2 and MGS3 would be damaging to the pacing of the game, and to the cohesion of the gameplay experience as a whole.
Games can evoke complex responses from people without having to resort to cutscenes, or without having to rely on them exclusively to tell their tale. If you need to stick a full-length movie in your game to evoke a complex response, your message would probably be better served by an actual film than by the medium of videogames.
I entirely agree with the first part of your statement. You absolutely do not have to resort to cutscenes to a tell a story in a game. I don't agree with the second part. If you have a good, entertaining and relevant movie in a game and great gameplay, I could really care less which proportions the experience is divided up into as long as the overall experience is enjoyable.
i just play the games i don't watch cutscenes or anything like that unless there really good and keep me awake.:|shadowwolf1123
You know, after 16 odd years of playing FPS games if I start the game as some one-dimensional badass marine caricuture, it usually gets uninstalled.
[QUOTE="shadowwolf1123"]i just play the games i don't watch cutscenes or anything like that unless there really good and keep me awake.:|juno84
You know, after 16 odd years of playing FPS games if I start the game as some one-dimensional badass marine caricuture, it usually gets uninstalled.
haha, yeah, no kidding. There a serious lack of orginality in the game industry these days.
[QUOTE="lordlors"][QUOTE="juno84"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="juno84"]If you accept gaming as a medium for storytelling then you should have no problem with cutscenes as long as it is quality, has a good production value, and is relevant to the story at hand. juno84
what if you dont?
Then stick to story-light games. There is a pretty big divide between art and game. Video games have tendency to cross over into both territories. A game can simply be a game and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I've liked many sports, racing, fighting games, and multiplayer FPSes with no SP at all. I'm not going to knock a game for not telling a story, but I'm also not going to knock games for striving to do so.
please read my post in the previous page. if you mean 90 or 60 minutes cutscene straight is no problem, then you have a terrible view of game design. otherwise, yes cutscenes are useful and effective in a story-driven game provided it is not very long like 60-90 mins straight.
Contrary to what you believe, what constitutes as too much or too little is entirely subjective... and I can say that objectively. There are no 'set in stone' rules for game design. It's funny that I'm even argueing when I agree that that sounds like quite a long cutscene. I won't really know if it'd bother me until I see it.
am i saying it as a set in stone rule for game design? no. besides do you know who Adams and Rollings are? Adams is the co-founder of IGDA. i'm sure they know a lot of things you don't. also, you just don't understand. i'm just quoting their thoughts on this. i have a book Fundamentals of Game Design written by them and am sudying game design. There are principles and fundamentals in game design that you need to follow to make a good game.
also, yes what constitutes as too much or too little is entirely subjective. But are you saying 60-90 mins single cutscene is ok? it it really stupid to think that it's a good part for a video game. i am not saying how many hours there should be in a cutscene and am not setting a rule.
[QUOTE="juno84"][QUOTE="lordlors"][QUOTE="juno84"][QUOTE="goblaa"][QUOTE="juno84"]If you accept gaming as a medium for storytelling then you should have no problem with cutscenes as long as it is quality, has a good production value, and is relevant to the story at hand. lordlors
what if you dont?
Then stick to story-light games. There is a pretty big divide between art and game. Video games have tendency to cross over into both territories. A game can simply be a game and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I've liked many sports, racing, fighting games, and multiplayer FPSes with no SP at all. I'm not going to knock a game for not telling a story, but I'm also not going to knock games for striving to do so.
please read my post in the previous page. if you mean 90 or 60 minutes cutscene straight is no problem, then you have a terrible view of game design. otherwise, yes cutscenes are useful and effective in a story-driven game provided it is not very long like 60-90 mins straight.
Contrary to what you believe, what constitutes as too much or too little is entirely subjective... and I can say that objectively. There are no 'set in stone' rules for game design. It's funny that I'm even argueing when I agree that that sounds like quite a long cutscene. I won't really know if it'd bother me until I see it.
am i saying it as a set in stone rule for game design? no. besides do you know who Adams and Rollings are? Adams is the co-founder of IGDA. i'm sure they know a lot of things you don't. also, you just don't understand. i'm just quoting their thoughts on this. i have a book Fundamentals of Game Design written by them and am sudying game design. There are principles and fundamentals in game design that you need to follow to make a good game.
also, yes what constitutes as too much or too little is entirely subjective. But are you saying 60-90 mins single cutscene is ok? it it really stupid to think that it's a good part for a video game. i am not saying how many hours there should be in a cutscene and am not setting a rule.
Well, that was the whole point of me saying something is entirely subjective. I really can't say at what point a cutscene is too long. I've never reached that point myself where I thought "boy, this is a great cutscene but I'd rather just skip it and play the game." Maybe you have. I've even said that in theory that sounds long to me.
On the other hand, what would be so bad about watching a good movie (that you can skip) in a game? As long as something entertains and functions within the confines of the naritive that is fine by me. Regardless of what anyone says or writes, that doesn't sound like that terrible of an idea to me because that is my oppinion. I can't help wonder if people sneeze at the idea of getting a little cross genre movie/gaming because of how terrible FMV based games were. (they were bad because all you did is watch really poorly acted, rendered, and scripted scenes while doing timed button presses or maybe shooting things).
If it sounds terrible to you and turns out to be true, don't play it. I think bending the rules might be good for gaming these days. It's stagnant.
Well, that was the whole point of me saying something is entirely subjective. I really can't say at what point a cutscene is too long. I've never reached that point myself where I thought "boy, this is a great cutscene but I'd rather just skip it and play the game." Maybe you have. I've even said that in theory that sounds long to me.
On the other hand, what would be so bad about watching a good movie (that you can skip) in a game? As long as something entertains and functions within the confines of the naritive that is fine by me. Regardless of what anyone says or writes, that doesn't sound like that terrible of an idea to me because that is my oppinion. I can't help wonder if people sneeze at the idea of getting a little cross genre movie/gaming because of how terrible FMV based games were. (they were bad because all you did is watch really poorly acted, rendered, and scripted scenes while doing timed button presses or maybe shooting things).
If it sounds terrible to you and turns out to be true, don't play it. I think bending the rules might be good for gaming these days. It's stagnant.
juno84
you didn't understand what i meant. fundamentals and principles in game design cannot be violated or else it would result to bad game with bad design but it can be added and improved especially when technology is advancing very fast. Example: a game having multiple genres combined in a one whole package such as action, real-time strategy, role-playing like the PC game Cold Zero. Fundamentals and principles states that it is not a very good design because while it's unique, that game will not cater to neither audiences. strict strategy fans will find the game being a shooter too fast and furious, pure action fans will find some aspects of the game design a bit dull because of the RTS elements, etc.
anyway, like i said you are gaming not watching a movie. Having to watch a movie (60-90 mins long) to progress in the game is a very bad move because you are forcing the player to watch a movie instead of gaming. losing the sense of freedom and the game feeling like as if it's on rails. The raison d' etre of gaming is interactivity. if it's the ending i think it's ok though. a player senses progression in the game through things story/cutscene included. however, if it's 60-90 mins long it is already intrusive to the gaming experience. the best thing to do would be to make it shorter. BUT, if it's ok and great for the player then more power to him/her however i find it really stupid having to watch a 60-90 mins cutscene to progress in the game.
[QUOTE="juno84"]Well, that was the whole point of me saying something is entirely subjective. I really can't say at what point a cutscene is too long. I've never reached that point myself where I thought "boy, this is a great cutscene but I'd rather just skip it and play the game." Maybe you have. I've even said that in theory that sounds long to me.
On the other hand, what would be so bad about watching a good movie (that you can skip) in a game? As long as something entertains and functions within the confines of the naritive that is fine by me. Regardless of what anyone says or writes, that doesn't sound like that terrible of an idea to me because that is my oppinion. I can't help wonder if people sneeze at the idea of getting a little cross genre movie/gaming because of how terrible FMV based games were. (they were bad because all you did is watch really poorly acted, rendered, and scripted scenes while doing timed button presses or maybe shooting things).
If it sounds terrible to you and turns out to be true, don't play it. I think bending the rules might be good for gaming these days. It's stagnant.
lordlors
you didn't understand what i meant. fundamentals and principles in game design cannot be violated or else it would result to bad game with bad design but it can be added and improved especially when technology is advancing very fast. Example: a game having multiple genres combined in a one whole package such as action, real-time strategy, role-playing like the PC game Cold Zero. Fundamentals and principles states that it is not a very good design because while it's unique, that game will not cater to neither audiences. strict strategy fans will find the game being a shooter too fast and furious, pure action fans will find some aspects of the game design a bit dull because of the RTS elements, etc.
anyway, like i said you are gaming not watching a movie. Having to watch a movie (60-90 mins long) to progress in the game is a very bad move because you are forcing the player to watch a movie instead of gaming. losing the sense of freedom and the game feeling like as if it's on rails. The raison d' etre of gaming is interactivity. if it's the ending i think it's ok though. a player senses progression in the game through things story/cutscene included. however, if it's 60-90 mins long it is already intrusive to the gaming experience. the best thing to do would be to make it shorter. BUT, if it's ok and great for the player then more power to him/her however i find it really stupid having to watch a 60-90 mins cutscene to progress in the game.
Why do you say forcing? In most games with long cut scenes, you can just press a button and skip it if it doesn't interest you. So by force you mean it might detract from your enjoyment of the game to skip the scene so you should watch it? I don't think the cross genre analogy works very well since there have been many good games that have pulled elements from multiple genres.
I think where we are differing is you have a set preconception of what constitutes as game and that there are many "Do"s and "Don't"s in gaming. I won't disagree with that. There are proven ideas and bad ideas. Now where you see "game" I see "entertainment". That is one the main objectives of video games, television, books, movies, etc.
I get your arguement though. You might like steak (movies) and icecream (video games), but that doesn't mean they are a good combination. Really, all I'm saying is that you've never tried it.
Please Log In to post.
Log in to comment