Sony Doomed? :( Now Nintendo is Doomed? :(

PS3 highest selling console worldwide.

Vita global rollout Feb 23, 2012

Twisted Metal

God of War 4

Starhawk

Last of Us

Ni no Kuni

Yes, this is clearly a dying company.

Microsoft obviously must be growing, sold all of its studios and has nothing but Halo and Gears every year.

Yeah baby! Dance Central 2!!! Kinect golf!!!

Clearly a company on the upswing.

Not.

All MS has left is Windows.

Everything they do fails.

Bing - Failed

Zune - Failed

MSN - Failed

IE - Failed (and it's a free product too! How does a free product fail?!???)

Face it Microsoft is like the Titanic.

And now, they will be releasing a console with a GPU that wasn't even top of the line 2 years ago. Introducing LAST gen tech next gen. Brilliant!

FAIL

Windows 8 is gonna tank so hard. Have you seen it? LOL

LazySloth718

^^This guy get's it^^

Seriously no one is going anywhere, but if you wanted to talk about dooms day scenerios then you can bring out anything about a company and make it sound like they are. MS has by far lost more money in their divisions than anyone else, they have closed down so many game studios and lost a bunch of money of Zune, and do I need to tell the story about Games For Windows Live? They lost a hell of alot of money from that because PC gamers told MS to goF-themselves and now GFWL is FREE!

This doens't mean MS is doomed because they arn't, but when it comes to gaming they sure has hell don't seem to givea damn. Lems will be lucky if it isn't just all about Kinect 2.0 next gen, hell that GPU thing basically confirms that they will be going the Wii route next gen by releasing a weaker system and trying to get the soccer moms on board. They already are doing it withthe 360 now and the worst part is that MS doesn't support theirolder systems oncecreatethe new one,once the next Xbox is done Lems will have no choice but to either buy it or just sit with a 360 with no games to play.

Should have gotten a PS3 instead, You knew this day would come.

[QUOTE="phonemug"]

[QUOTE="hummer700"]Is their gaming division to blame for their huge losses? I don't think so, even with the Vita it's too soon to tell._Matt_

indeed, and lemmings think that somehow the losses over a few years before the ps3 became profitable were way more than the large profits from the whole ps2 gen

PS3 lost more money than the money Sony gained with the PS2, this has nothing to do with fanboyism - it's a fact.

PS3's been a profitable product for sony despite the losses in the earlier stage in its lifecycle.It still makes strong amounts of cash in software sales.

People proclaiming sony is doomed are not looking at the big picture, its a massive company and more than likely restructure and sell and divide the sectors that arent profitable and they just sold off their shares in the S-LCD company.

PS3's been a profitable product for sony despite the losses in the earlier stage in its lifecycle.It still makes strong amounts of cash in software sales.

razgriz_101

Couldn't be more wrong. Sony will never make enough profit on the PS3 to gain back what they lost, this is why the PS4 won't be appearing anytime soon, Sony wants to gain as much money back as they can with the PS3 before putting resources into the PS4. Once the PS3 stops selling, they'll have no choice, and with the next Nintendo console releasing this year and the successor of the 360 coming right around the corner, they'll likely be forced to release PS4 earlier than they'd want.

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

PS3's been a profitable product for sony despite the losses in the earlier stage in its lifecycle.It still makes strong amounts of cash in software sales.

PillyChickle

Couldn't be more wrong. Sony will never make enough profit on the PS3 to gain back what they lost, this is why the PS4 won't be appearing anytime soon, Sony wants to gain as much money back as they can with the PS3 before putting resources into the PS4. Once the PS3 stops selling, they'll have no choice, and with the next Nintendo console releasing this year and the successor of the 360 coming right around the corner, they'll likely be forced to release PS4 earlier than they'd want.

[QUOTE="PillyChickle"]

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

PS3's been a profitable product for sony despite the losses in the earlier stage in its lifecycle.It still makes strong amounts of cash in software sales.

Zaibach

Couldn't be more wrong. Sony will never make enough profit on the PS3 to gain back what they lost, this is why the PS4 won't be appearing anytime soon, Sony wants to gain as much money back as they can with the PS3 before putting resources into the PS4. Once the PS3 stops selling, they'll have no choice, and with the next Nintendo console releasing this year and the successor of the 360 coming right around the corner, they'll likely be forced to release PS4 earlier than they'd want.

Know what?

[QUOTE="phonemug"]

[QUOTE="LazySloth718"]

Sony is not the developer of Playstation.

SCEA (Sony Computer Entertainment of America) is.

They're doing great.

The parent company, not so much.

I think they will have to sell off their TV division.

PraetorianMan

SCEA finally profits a couple years after PS3 hardware costs come down but its pocket change compared to the losses it suffered

"SCEA is doing great"

Give me a break :lol: They're doing terrible and just lost a crapload more cash this year after the PSN hack Vita failure.

Ummm. Yeah. That extreme example doesn't work. Not even close. Because you would be paying interest on that $1 trillion lost. At some point you have to pay the piper (the Bankers).

I love me some playstation. But Sony needs to earn more profits, or they won't be able to service their own debt. Economics 101.

I mean there's no imminent danger. But within 5-10 years if they don't start making some years of $Billion+ profits (rather than $ Billions in losses), then Sony as a company is in trouble. Most likely if/when the economy recovers, they will start doing better. But it's a really crowded market in consumer electronics right now, and basically Apple is just killing everyone as far as those electronic gadgets go.

I also disagree with anyone that sugarcoats Nintendo's situation. If the Wii-U is not a hit, they are also in trouble. Actually even worse trouble than Sony, because Nintendo has nothing else to fall back on except gaming. Sony is still a multinational conglomerate with a broader range of products to market and bigger scale. Now right now Sony might actually have TOO MANY products that nothing really stands out. I actually think that's part of the problem. But Nintendo is extreme in the opposite end of the spectrum. Nintendo basically markets 2 products and some games. If they don't work in the marketplace, Nintendo has to scramble to come with something new. Nintendo corporate value could literally drop 50% in a year if the Wii-U is a flop because it's literally set up to be half of their business - Nintendo can't afford a flop in the way that Sony can afford to have a single product flop. If demand for Mario/Zelda dried up in the "mainstream", Nintendo would go the way of SNK or Sega faster than you could blink an eye.

[QUOTE="PraetorianMan"]

[QUOTE="phonemug"]SCEA loses billions of dollars in PS3s first few years on the market

SCEA finally profits a couple years after PS3 hardware costs come down but its pocket change compared to the losses it suffered

"SCEA is doing great"

Give me a break :lol: They're doing terrible and just lost a crapload more cash this year after the PSN hack Vita failure.

2Chalupas

Ummm. Yeah. That extreme example doesn't work. Not even close. Because you would be paying interest on that $1 trillion lost. At some point you have to pay the piper (the Bankers).

I love me some playstation. But Sony needs to earn more profits, or they won't be able to service their own debt. Economics 101.

I mean there's no imminent danger. But within 5-10 years if they don't start making some years of $Billion+ profits (rather than $ Billions in losses), then Sony as a company is in trouble. Most likely if/when the economy recovers, they will start doing better. But it's a really crowded market in consumer electronics right now, and basically Apple is just killing everyone as far as those electronic gadgets go.

I also disagree with anyone that sugarcoats Nintendo's situation. If the Wii-U is not a hit, they are also in trouble. Actually even worse trouble than Sony, because Nintendo has nothing else to fall back on except gaming. Sony is still a multinational conglomerate with a broader range of products to market and bigger scale. Now right now Sony might actually have TOO MANY products that nothing really stands out. I actually think that's part of the problem. But Nintendo is extreme in the opposite end of the spectrum. Nintendo basically markets 2 products and some games. If they don't work in the marketplace, Nintendo has to scramble to come with something new. Nintendo corporate value could literally drop 50% in a year if the Wii-U is a flop because it's literally set up to be half of their business - Nintendo can't afford a flop in the way that Sony can afford to have a single product flop. If demand for Mario/Zelda dried up in the "mainstream", Nintendo would go the way of SNK or Sega faster than you could blink an eye.

They have lost 3.2 billion this year overall, including all of their divisions, and have been losing bucket loads of money for years.

Their networth has gone down from 100 million in 2000 to 16 million in 2012.

They are not going to last much longer at this point.

[QUOTE="2Chalupas"]

[QUOTE="PraetorianMan"] That's not how business works. It doesn't matter if you lost a trillion dollars yesterday, if you made $20 in profit today and you are expecting to make another $20 tomorrow, that's all people care about. Likewise, it doesn't matter if you made a trillion dollars yesterday. If you lose $20 today, and you don't expect to stop losing money any time soon, investors will flip a **** on you. Economics 101.

phonemug

Ummm. Yeah. That extreme example doesn't work. Not even close. Because you would be paying interest on that $1 trillion lost. At some point you have to pay the piper (the Bankers).

I love me some playstation. But Sony needs to earn more profits, or they won't be able to service their own debt. Economics 101.

I mean there's no imminent danger. But within 5-10 years if they don't start making some years of $Billion+ profits (rather than $ Billions in losses), then Sony as a company is in trouble. Most likely if/when the economy recovers, they will start doing better. But it's a really crowded market in consumer electronics right now, and basically Apple is just killing everyone as far as those electronic gadgets go.

I also disagree with anyone that sugarcoats Nintendo's situation. If the Wii-U is not a hit, they are also in trouble. Actually even worse trouble than Sony, because Nintendo has nothing else to fall back on except gaming. Sony is still a multinational conglomerate with a broader range of products to market and bigger scale. Now right now Sony might actually have TOO MANY products that nothing really stands out. I actually think that's part of the problem. But Nintendo is extreme in the opposite end of the spectrum. Nintendo basically markets 2 products and some games. If they don't work in the marketplace, Nintendo has to scramble to come with something new. Nintendo corporate value could literally drop 50% in a year if the Wii-U is a flop because it's literally set up to be half of their business - Nintendo can't afford a flop in the way that Sony can afford to have a single product flop. If demand for Mario/Zelda dried up in the "mainstream", Nintendo would go the way of SNK or Sega faster than you could blink an eye.

Their networth has gone down from 100 million in 2000 to 16 million in 2012.

Where did you get this number?

The good thing about REALITY is that it is coming for the delusional Cows no matter what kind of spin and damage control they try to put on the fact that Sony worth has dropped to a mere 16% of what it was in the year 2000 and they are on the verge of collapse.

You can BS on forums all you want but that won't save Sony next gen.

Console races are expensive and they simply don't have the money to compete anymore much less be competetive.

[QUOTE="razgriz_101"]

PS3's been a profitable product for sony despite the losses in the earlier stage in its lifecycle.It still makes strong amounts of cash in software sales.

PillyChickle

Couldn't be more wrong. Sony will never make enough profit on the PS3 to gain back what they lost, this is why the PS4 won't be appearing anytime soon, Sony wants to gain as much money back as they can with the PS3 before putting resources into the PS4. Once the PS3 stops selling, they'll have no choice, and with the next Nintendo console releasing this year and the successor of the 360 coming right around the corner, they'll likely be forced to release PS4 earlier than they'd want.

Doesn't work that way bro. They aren't going to just isolate the PS3 and keep it going in the market for the sake of "earning back the money on the PS3". The PS3 is just another one of a multitude of products for Sony. If it's time is up, it's time is up. Some products won't reach the goals or even make money, others will. Corporations operate on 5 year and 10 year plans. But they revise those plans every year. If the PS4 is a better investment than just extending out the PS3, than they will launch the PS4. However if the PS3 is earning them money, then they will keep going with the PS3. But it has nothing to do with "earning back what they lost" as far as the PS3 itself. That is irrelevant. What matters is how the PS3 compares on their profit schedules vs. a planned PS4 rollout. Also if they plan to push new tech, like 4K, that could prompt them to hold off on the PS4 as well.

It's almost certain that they have alreaedy invested heavily into the PS4, maybe just up to the point of making final arrangements to start the supply chain. So the only way the PS3 plays a factor, is if it's selling SO well and is so profitable that there is no reason to move to PS4. Otherwise it will be time to roll out the PS4. At some point (i.e. when the Wii-U and XBOX launches), it is safe to assume that the PS3 will not be competitive anyway. So Sony won't have much of a choice.

My guess is Sony comes out with a mini version of the PS3 in late 2012/2013 for the low end (kind of like they did with the PS2). It's not inconceivable that at this point they could profitably build a $150 PS3 if they could get the form factor small enough. Then late 2013 they launch the PS4.

[QUOTE="phonemug"]

[QUOTE="2Chalupas"]

Ummm. Yeah. That extreme example doesn't work. Not even close. Because you would be paying interest on that $1 trillion lost. At some point you have to pay the piper (the Bankers).

I love me some playstation. But Sony needs to earn more profits, or they won't be able to service their own debt. Economics 101.

I mean there's no imminent danger. But within 5-10 years if they don't start making some years of $Billion+ profits (rather than $ Billions in losses), then Sony as a company is in trouble. Most likely if/when the economy recovers, they will start doing better. But it's a really crowded market in consumer electronics right now, and basically Apple is just killing everyone as far as those electronic gadgets go.

I also disagree with anyone that sugarcoats Nintendo's situation. If the Wii-U is not a hit, they are also in trouble. Actually even worse trouble than Sony, because Nintendo has nothing else to fall back on except gaming. Sony is still a multinational conglomerate with a broader range of products to market and bigger scale. Now right now Sony might actually have TOO MANY products that nothing really stands out. I actually think that's part of the problem. But Nintendo is extreme in the opposite end of the spectrum. Nintendo basically markets 2 products and some games. If they don't work in the marketplace, Nintendo has to scramble to come with something new. Nintendo corporate value could literally drop 50% in a year if the Wii-U is a flop because it's literally set up to be half of their business - Nintendo can't afford a flop in the way that Sony can afford to have a single product flop. If demand for Mario/Zelda dried up in the "mainstream", Nintendo would go the way of SNK or Sega faster than you could blink an eye.

themajormayor

Their networth has gone down from 100 million in 2000 to 16 million in 2012.

Where did you get this number?

I mistyped though.

It's 100 billion to 18 billion

Holy God that's 82% of their net worth! :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony

In May 2011, Sony expected to lose a total of 260billion yen ($3.2billion) for the year, due to the effects of the Japanese earthquake. The forecast of a $3.2billion loss was quite different than its earlier projection of a profit of 70billion yen ($857million) for the year.[52]

For the last three years, Sony has lost 399.3 billion yen ($5.1 billion) due to fierce competition mainly with Apple and Samsung Electronics Inc. In September 2000 Sony had a net worth of $100 billion, but by December of 2011 it had plunged to $18 billion.

Sony's TV unit alone set to lose $2.2 billion on tumbling demand and surging yen. Sony has sold off TV factories in Spain, Slovakia and Mexico in the past few years and retains plants of its own in Japan, Brazil, China and Malaysia. In December 2011, Sony has agreed to sell all stake in an LCD joint venture with Samsung Electronics for about $940 million and then Sony will outsource the LCD panel from other company as Sony outsourced in the past few years for more than a half of its production.[54

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="phonemug"]

Their networth has gone down from 100 million in 2000 to 16 million in 2012.

phonemug

Where did you get this number?

I mistyped though.

It's 100 billion to 18 billion

That explains it.

BTW in 2011 Sony made acquisitions worth $8.4 billion

[QUOTE="PraetorianMan"]

[QUOTE="phonemug"]SCEA loses billions of dollars in PS3s first few years on the market

SCEA finally profits a couple years after PS3 hardware costs come down but its pocket change compared to the losses it suffered

"SCEA is doing great"

Give me a break :lol: They're doing terrible and just lost a crapload more cash this year after the PSN hack Vita failure.

2Chalupas

Ummm. Yeah. That extreme example doesn't work. Not even close. Because you would be paying interest on that $1 trillion lost. At some point you have to pay the piper (the Bankers).

I love me some playstation. But Sony needs to earn more profits, or they won't be able to service their own debt. Economics 101.

I mean there's no imminent danger. But within 5-10 years if they don't start making some years of $Billion+ profits (rather than $ Billions in losses), then Sony as a company is in trouble. Most likely if/when the economy recovers, they will start doing better. But it's a really crowded market in consumer electronics right now, and basically Apple is just killing everyone as far as those electronic gadgets go.

I also disagree with anyone that sugarcoats Nintendo's situation. If the Wii-U is not a hit, they are also in trouble. Actually even worse trouble than Sony, because Nintendo has nothing else to fall back on except gaming. Sony is still a multinational conglomerate with a broader range of products to market and bigger scale. Now right now Sony might actually have TOO MANY products that nothing really stands out. I actually think that's part of the problem. But Nintendo is extreme in the opposite end of the spectrum. Nintendo basically markets 2 products and some games. If they don't work in the marketplace, Nintendo has to scramble to come with something new. Nintendo corporate value could literally drop 50% in a year if the Wii-U is a flop because it's literally set up to be half of their business - Nintendo can't afford a flop in the way that Sony can afford to have a single product flop. If demand for Mario/Zelda dried up in the "mainstream", Nintendo would go the way of SNK or Sega faster than you could blink an eye.

Nintendo are run by capable people, how do you think they managed to survive through the GameCube days?

[QUOTE="2Chalupas"]

[QUOTE="PraetorianMan"] That's not how business works. It doesn't matter if you lost a trillion dollars yesterday, if you made $20 in profit today and you are expecting to make another $20 tomorrow, that's all people care about. Likewise, it doesn't matter if you made a trillion dollars yesterday. If you lose $20 today, and you don't expect to stop losing money any time soon, investors will flip a **** on you. Economics 101.

phonemug

Ummm. Yeah. That extreme example doesn't work. Not even close. Because you would be paying interest on that $1 trillion lost. At some point you have to pay the piper (the Bankers).

I love me some playstation. But Sony needs to earn more profits, or they won't be able to service their own debt. Economics 101.

I mean there's no imminent danger. But within 5-10 years if they don't start making some years of $Billion+ profits (rather than $ Billions in losses), then Sony as a company is in trouble. Most likely if/when the economy recovers, they will start doing better. But it's a really crowded market in consumer electronics right now, and basically Apple is just killing everyone as far as those electronic gadgets go.

I also disagree with anyone that sugarcoats Nintendo's situation. If the Wii-U is not a hit, they are also in trouble. Actually even worse trouble than Sony, because Nintendo has nothing else to fall back on except gaming. Sony is still a multinational conglomerate with a broader range of products to market and bigger scale. Now right now Sony might actually have TOO MANY products that nothing really stands out. I actually think that's part of the problem. But Nintendo is extreme in the opposite end of the spectrum. Nintendo basically markets 2 products and some games. If they don't work in the marketplace, Nintendo has to scramble to come with something new. Nintendo corporate value could literally drop 50% in a year if the Wii-U is a flop because it's literally set up to be half of their business - Nintendo can't afford a flop in the way that Sony can afford to have a single product flop. If demand for Mario/Zelda dried up in the "mainstream", Nintendo would go the way of SNK or Sega faster than you could blink an eye.

They have lost 3.2 billion this year overall, including all of their divisions, and have been losing bucket loads of money for years.

Their networth has gone down from 100 million in 2000 to 16 million in 2012.

They are not going to last much longer at this point.

Yet despite that earthquake year, they have only lost $117 million over the coarse of 5 years. So they obviously had some profitable periods as well. That sucks. But not exactly "boatoads of cash". Not for a company with almost $10 Billion every single year in revenues.

I just looked up their debt, and they actually have more cash on hand than debt (over $1 Billion Cash, only $800 Million debt). For a consumer electronics company that isnt Apple or Microsoft that's not bad. Their yearly revenues are also more than 10x their debt load. So where is the danger of Sony going anywhere imminently? It's not there. Sony would have to completely tank even from what they are today to be in any danger. Now I'm sure in their peak, they probably had many times more cash than debt. Just like Apple and Microsoft do. But if they were in danger, they would have a much worse ratio than that.

Look at a company like AMD.

$606 Million Cash

$2.2 Billion Debt

Infinitely worse cash position than Sony, yet somehow they were able to afford to launch the trinity APU line and still coming with 2nd generation as well as new GPU's. Sony also has alot more revenues than AMD. That's where their "product portfolio" actually pays off, rather than just relying on one product.

[QUOTE="2Chalupas"]

[QUOTE="PraetorianMan"] That's not how business works. It doesn't matter if you lost a trillion dollars yesterday, if you made $20 in profit today and you are expecting to make another $20 tomorrow, that's all people care about. Likewise, it doesn't matter if you made a trillion dollars yesterday. If you lose $20 today, and you don't expect to stop losing money any time soon, investors will flip a **** on you. Economics 101.

PillyChickle

Ummm. Yeah. That extreme example doesn't work. Not even close. Because you would be paying interest on that $1 trillion lost. At some point you have to pay the piper (the Bankers).

I love me some playstation. But Sony needs to earn more profits, or they won't be able to service their own debt. Economics 101.

I mean there's no imminent danger. But within 5-10 years if they don't start making some years of $Billion+ profits (rather than $ Billions in losses), then Sony as a company is in trouble. Most likely if/when the economy recovers, they will start doing better. But it's a really crowded market in consumer electronics right now, and basically Apple is just killing everyone as far as those electronic gadgets go.

I also disagree with anyone that sugarcoats Nintendo's situation. If the Wii-U is not a hit, they are also in trouble. Actually even worse trouble than Sony, because Nintendo has nothing else to fall back on except gaming. Sony is still a multinational conglomerate with a broader range of products to market and bigger scale. Now right now Sony might actually have TOO MANY products that nothing really stands out. I actually think that's part of the problem. But Nintendo is extreme in the opposite end of the spectrum. Nintendo basically markets 2 products and some games. If they don't work in the marketplace, Nintendo has to scramble to come with something new. Nintendo corporate value could literally drop 50% in a year if the Wii-U is a flop because it's literally set up to be half of their business - Nintendo can't afford a flop in the way that Sony can afford to have a single product flop. If demand for Mario/Zelda dried up in the "mainstream", Nintendo would go the way of SNK or Sega faster than you could blink an eye.

Nintendo are run by capable people, how do you think they managed to survive through the GameCube days?

They survived the gamecube days because their next console was a hit/fad, plus they had the DS? If the Wii flopped, who knows what could have happened.

Nintendo only has 2 products. So if Wii was like Gamecube, all they would have is the DS and the trademarks for their games. That product alone they could probably "survive" on. But just one little handheld product is not going to make them a multibillion corporation. Investors would be running to the exits much more then you might think when an entire company is based on 1 product. I have no idea how the stock performed during the N64/Gamecube days, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess it really tanked hard. Even Apple is not immune from the "gravity' of markets. At some point in the coming decade(s), their products will not be hot, and their multiple will collapse. But of course Apple has such huge cash horde now, that they will probably never again face bankruptcy like they did not too long before the IPOD/itunes.

[QUOTE="phonemug"]

[QUOTE="2Chalupas"]

Ummm. Yeah. That extreme example doesn't work. Not even close. Because you would be paying interest on that $1 trillion lost. At some point you have to pay the piper (the Bankers).

I love me some playstation. But Sony needs to earn more profits, or they won't be able to service their own debt. Economics 101.

I mean there's no imminent danger. But within 5-10 years if they don't start making some years of $Billion+ profits (rather than $ Billions in losses), then Sony as a company is in trouble. Most likely if/when the economy recovers, they will start doing better. But it's a really crowded market in consumer electronics right now, and basically Apple is just killing everyone as far as those electronic gadgets go.

I also disagree with anyone that sugarcoats Nintendo's situation. If the Wii-U is not a hit, they are also in trouble. Actually even worse trouble than Sony, because Nintendo has nothing else to fall back on except gaming. Sony is still a multinational conglomerate with a broader range of products to market and bigger scale. Now right now Sony might actually have TOO MANY products that nothing really stands out. I actually think that's part of the problem. But Nintendo is extreme in the opposite end of the spectrum. Nintendo basically markets 2 products and some games. If they don't work in the marketplace, Nintendo has to scramble to come with something new. Nintendo corporate value could literally drop 50% in a year if the Wii-U is a flop because it's literally set up to be half of their business - Nintendo can't afford a flop in the way that Sony can afford to have a single product flop. If demand for Mario/Zelda dried up in the "mainstream", Nintendo would go the way of SNK or Sega faster than you could blink an eye.

2Chalupas

They have lost 3.2 billion this year overall, including all of their divisions, and have been losing bucket loads of money for years.

Their networth has gone down from 100 million in 2000 to 16 million in 2012.

They are not going to last much longer at this point.

Yet despite that earthquake year, they have only lost $117 million over the coarse of 5 years. So they obviously had some profitable periods as well. That sucks. But not exactly "boatoads of cash". Not for a company with almost $10 Billion every single year in revenues.

I just looked up their debt, and they actually have more cash on hand than debt (over $1 Billion Cash, only $800 Million debt). For a consumer electronics company that isnt Apple or Microsoft that's not bad. Their yearly revenues are also more than 10x their debt load. So where is the danger of Sony going anywhere imminently? It's not there. Sony would have to completely tank even from what they are today to be in any danger. Now I'm sure in their peak, they probably had many times more cash than debt. Just like Apple and Microsoft do. But if they were in danger, they would have a much worse ratio than that.

Look at a company like AMD.

$606 Million Cash

$2.2 Billion Debt

Infinitely worse cash position than Sony, yet somehow they were able to afford to launch the trinity APU line and still coming with 2nd generation as well as new GPU's.

Here they are

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony

In May 2011, Sony expected to lose a total of 260billion yen ($3.2billion) for the year, due to the effects of the Japanese earthquake. The forecast of a $3.2billion loss was quite different than its earlier projection of a profit of 70billion yen ($857million) for the year.[52]

For the last three years, Sony has lost 399.3 billion yen ($5.1 billion) due to fierce competition mainly with Apple and Samsung Electronics Inc. In September 2000 Sony had a net worth of $100 billion, but by December of 2011 it had plunged to $18 billion.

Sony's TV unit alone set to lose $2.2 billion on tumbling demand and surging yen. Sony has sold off TV factories in Spain, Slovakia and Mexico in the past few years and retains plants of its own in Japan, Brazil, China and Malaysia. In December 2011, Sony has agreed to sell all stake in an LCD joint venture with Samsung Electronics for about $940 million and then Sony will outsource the LCD panel from other company as Sony outsourced in the past few years for more than a half of its production.[54

[QUOTE="PillyChickle"]

[QUOTE="2Chalupas"]

Ummm. Yeah. That extreme example doesn't work. Not even close. Because you would be paying interest on that $1 trillion lost. At some point you have to pay the piper (the Bankers).

I love me some playstation. But Sony needs to earn more profits, or they won't be able to service their own debt. Economics 101.

I mean there's no imminent danger. But within 5-10 years if they don't start making some years of $Billion+ profits (rather than $ Billions in losses), then Sony as a company is in trouble. Most likely if/when the economy recovers, they will start doing better. But it's a really crowded market in consumer electronics right now, and basically Apple is just killing everyone as far as those electronic gadgets go.

I also disagree with anyone that sugarcoats Nintendo's situation. If the Wii-U is not a hit, they are also in trouble. Actually even worse trouble than Sony, because Nintendo has nothing else to fall back on except gaming. Sony is still a multinational conglomerate with a broader range of products to market and bigger scale. Now right now Sony might actually have TOO MANY products that nothing really stands out. I actually think that's part of the problem. But Nintendo is extreme in the opposite end of the spectrum. Nintendo basically markets 2 products and some games. If they don't work in the marketplace, Nintendo has to scramble to come with something new. Nintendo corporate value could literally drop 50% in a year if the Wii-U is a flop because it's literally set up to be half of their business - Nintendo can't afford a flop in the way that Sony can afford to have a single product flop. If demand for Mario/Zelda dried up in the "mainstream", Nintendo would go the way of SNK or Sega faster than you could blink an eye.

2Chalupas

Nintendo are run by capable people, how do you think they managed to survive through the GameCube days?

They survived the gamecube days because their next console was a hit/fad, plus they had the DS? If the Wii flopped, who knows what could have happened.

Nintendo only has 2 products. So if Wii was like Gamecube, all they would have is the DS and the trademarks for their games. That product alone they could probably "survive" on. But just one little handheld product is not going to make them a multibillion corporation. Investors would be running to the exits much more then you might think when an entire company is based on 1 product. I have no idea how the stock performed during the N64/Gamecube days, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess it really tanked hard. Even Apple is not immune from the "gravity' of markets. At some point in the coming decade(s), their products will not be hot, and their multiple will collapse. But of course Apple has such huge cash horde now, that they will probably never again face bankruptcy like they did not too long before the IPOD/itunes.

BTW I don't really think the Sony CEO is terribly competent. The guy was on CNBC a few weeks back touting their various products. He had some weird ass headgear thing that was a 3D display that looked incredibly stupid to me - even if it's impressive technology (simulating a 100" 3D screen or whatever) it just looked crazy and i doubt people will buy it. They were practically making fun of him like he was a senile old grandpa with all these gadgets. Then at the end the guy forgot to even show the Vita! But they brought him back in the next segment and he showed it. Guy came across as not really "on the ball" though.

They survived through the GameCube era because they didn't endure any losses. Nintendo are a smart company, the fact that they've managed to win the seventh generation is a testament to that.

[QUOTE="2Chalupas"]

[QUOTE="phonemug"]It's great to tout Sony has more to fall back on than Nintendo but when most of what they have to fall back is outright failing that only means they have more burdens sinking them to the bottom of the ocean.

They have lost 3.2 billion this year overall, including all of their divisions, and have been losing bucket loads of money for years.

Their networth has gone down from 100 million in 2000 to 16 million in 2012.

They are not going to last much longer at this point.

Yet despite that earthquake year, they have only lost $117 million over the coarse of 5 years. So they obviously had some profitable periods as well. That sucks. But not exactly "boatoads of cash". Not for a company with almost $10 Billion every single year in revenues.

I just looked up their debt, and they actually have more cash on hand than debt (over $1 Billion Cash, only $800 Million debt). For a consumer electronics company that isnt Apple or Microsoft that's not bad. Their yearly revenues are also more than 10x their debt load. So where is the danger of Sony going anywhere imminently? It's not there. Sony would have to completely tank even from what they are today to be in any danger. Now I'm sure in their peak, they probably had many times more cash than debt. Just like Apple and Microsoft do. But if they were in danger, they would have a much worse ratio than that.

Look at a company like AMD.

$606 Million Cash

$2.2 Billion Debt

Infinitely worse cash position than Sony, yet somehow they were able to afford to launch the trinity APU line and still coming with 2nd generation as well as new GPU's.

Here they are

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony

In May 2011, Sony expected to lose a total of 260billion yen ($3.2billion) for the year, due to the effects of the Japanese earthquake. The forecast of a $3.2billion loss was quite different than its earlier projection of a profit of 70billion yen ($857million) for the year.[52]

For the last three years, Sony has lost 399.3 billion yen ($5.1 billion) due to fierce competition mainly with Apple and Samsung Electronics Inc. In September 2000 Sony had a net worth of $100 billion, but by December of 2011 it had plunged to $18 billion.

Sony's TV unit alone set to lose $2.2 billion on tumbling demand and surging yen. Sony has sold off TV factories in Spain, Slovakia and Mexico in the past few years and retains plants of its own in Japan, Brazil, China and Malaysia. In December 2011, Sony has agreed to sell all stake in an LCD joint venture with Samsung Electronics for about $940 million and then Sony will outsource the LCD panel from other company as Sony outsourced in the past few years for more than a half of its production.[54

PHONEMUG....PHONEMUG...PHONEMUG....LISTEN TO ME PLEAAAAASSE!.........Be a good sport Nintendo and Sony have BOTH lost big. Thats just a fact. We can go on and on about who could recover faster, who matter more, which debt is bigger. But lets just stop fooling ourselves. They both have serious debt to take care of. WAIT PHONEMUG! Dont now start extrapolating again. DOnt digress. Dont now post ur numbers again......they BOTH have big debt. End of story The question really should be if it matters. And im going to be frank..... WHEN IM SITTING DOWN WITH MY VITA OR WII U THIS YEAR, HAVING A BLAST PLAYING ZELDA OR GRAVITY RUSH, IM NOT GOING TO HAVE STATISTICS SHEETS ON MY LAP SO THAT I CAN TRY TO DECIDE HOW MUCH FUN IM HAVING. BECAUSE IT DOESNT MATTER HOW MUCH THESE SYSTEMS SELL THATS THE COMPANIES PROBLEM, NOT OURS. HOW THEY SELL DOESNT MAKE ME ENJOY WHAT I PLAY ANY MORE OR LESS. Games are entertainment, theyre about the fun YOU get out of them. YOU phonemug, obviously should never buy a sony system. So just dont, and get on with your life. Surely you have better things to do. SO who is doomed nintendo or sony...my response to that is I DONT GIVE A CRAPms555

I say this as an MS fan who analyzes business, not a Nintendo drone.

[QUOTE="2Chalupas"]

[QUOTE="phonemug"]It's great to tout Sony has more to fall back on than Nintendo but when most of what they have to fall back is outright failing that only means they have more burdens sinking them to the bottom of the ocean.

They have lost 3.2 billion this year overall, including all of their divisions, and have been losing bucket loads of money for years.

Their networth has gone down from 100 million in 2000 to 16 million in 2012.

They are not going to last much longer at this point.

phonemug

Yet despite that earthquake year, they have only lost $117 million over the coarse of 5 years. So they obviously had some profitable periods as well. That sucks. But not exactly "boatoads of cash". Not for a company with almost $10 Billion every single year in revenues.

I just looked up their debt, and they actually have more cash on hand than debt (over $1 Billion Cash, only $800 Million debt). For a consumer electronics company that isnt Apple or Microsoft that's not bad. Their yearly revenues are also more than 10x their debt load. So where is the danger of Sony going anywhere imminently? It's not there. Sony would have to completely tank even from what they are today to be in any danger. Now I'm sure in their peak, they probably had many times more cash than debt. Just like Apple and Microsoft do. But if they were in danger, they would have a much worse ratio than that.

Look at a company like AMD.

$606 Million Cash

$2.2 Billion Debt

Infinitely worse cash position than Sony, yet somehow they were able to afford to launch the trinity APU line and still coming with 2nd generation as well as new GPU's.

Here they are

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony

In May 2011, Sony expected to lose a total of 260billion yen ($3.2billion) for the year, due to the effects of the Japanese earthquake. The forecast of a $3.2billion loss was quite different than its earlier projection of a profit of 70billion yen ($857million) for the year.

For the last three years, Sony has lost 399.3 billion yen ($5.1 billion) due to fierce competition mainly with Apple and Samsung Electronics Inc. In September 2000 Sony had a net worth of $100 billion, but by December of 2011 it had plunged to $18 billion.

Sony's TV unit alone set to lose $2.2 billion on tumbling demand and surging yen. Sony has sold off TV factories in Spain, Slovakia and Mexico in the past few years and retains plants of its own in Japan, Brazil, China and Malaysia. In December 2011, Sony has agreed to sell all stake in an LCD joint venture with Samsung Electronics for about $940 million and then Sony will outsource the LCD panel from other company as Sony outsourced in the past few years for more than a half of its production.

But this doesn't really prove much as far as Sony going bankrupt. Newsflash. Even Microsoft is only 50% of the value it had in 2000. Little thing called the Tech Bubble of the 1990's LOL.

Only a few tech companies from that era have recovered their full value from the Tech bubble. Apple, Amazon probably the biggest winners. Intel was $66 in 2000. But $25 today. Is Intel DOOMED?

So while Sony has been pretty crap (financially) for 5 years now. Going back to 2000 for valuation is kind of stupid. Sony does need new leadership and some new strategies. But it would take continued failure for them to be in trouble. In short the PS5 is in trouble without a change of affairs, but until then Sony is going to keep pumping out a pipeline of products almost certianly including the PS4.

[QUOTE="phonemug"]

[QUOTE="2Chalupas"]

Yet despite that earthquake year, they have only lost $117 million over the coarse of 5 years. So they obviously had some profitable periods as well. That sucks. But not exactly "boatoads of cash". Not for a company with almost $10 Billion every single year in revenues.

I just looked up their debt, and they actually have more cash on hand than debt (over $1 Billion Cash, only $800 Million debt). For a consumer electronics company that isnt Apple or Microsoft that's not bad. Their yearly revenues are also more than 10x their debt load. So where is the danger of Sony going anywhere imminently? It's not there. Sony would have to completely tank even from what they are today to be in any danger. Now I'm sure in their peak, they probably had many times more cash than debt. Just like Apple and Microsoft do. But if they were in danger, they would have a much worse ratio than that.

Look at a company like AMD.

$606 Million Cash

$2.2 Billion Debt

Infinitely worse cash position than Sony, yet somehow they were able to afford to launch the trinity APU line and still coming with 2nd generation as well as new GPU's.

2Chalupas

Here they are

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony

In May 2011, Sony expected to lose a total of 260billion yen ($3.2billion) for the year, due to the effects of the Japanese earthquake. The forecast of a $3.2billion loss was quite different than its earlier projection of a profit of 70billion yen ($857million) for the year.

For the last three years, Sony has lost 399.3 billion yen ($5.1 billion) due to fierce competition mainly with Apple and Samsung Electronics Inc. In September 2000 Sony had a net worth of $100 billion, but by December of 2011 it had plunged to $18 billion.

Sony's TV unit alone set to lose $2.2 billion on tumbling demand and surging yen. Sony has sold off TV factories in Spain, Slovakia and Mexico in the past few years and retains plants of its own in Japan, Brazil, China and Malaysia. In December 2011, Sony has agreed to sell all stake in an LCD joint venture with Samsung Electronics for about $940 million and then Sony will outsource the LCD panel from other company as Sony outsourced in the past few years for more than a half of its production.

But this doesn't really prove much as far as Sony going bankrupt. Newsflash. Even Microsoft is only 50% of the value it had in 2000. Little thing called the Tech Bubble of the 1990's LOL.

Only a few tech companies from that era have recovered their full value from the Tech bubble. Apple, Amazon probably the biggest winners. Intel was $66 in 2000. But $25 today. Is Intel DOOMED?

So while Sony has been pretty crap (financially) for 5 years now. Going back to 2000 for valuation is kind of stupid. Sony does need new leadership and some new strategies. But it would take continued failure for them to be in trouble. In short the PS5 is in trouble without a change of affairs, but until then Sony is going to keep pumping out a pipeline of products almost certianly including the PS4.

You raise some points but the point is Sony is still dropping massively. Their freefall continues. When you're market value has dropped from 100 billion to 18 billion and you're set to lose over 3 billion for the year, bankruptcy talk becomes expected.

Quite frankly I have no idea how Sony will rasie the money to be competetive against the two juggernauts next gen.

I don't ecpect to see a Ps4.

None are doomed. They're all making money. Sony may be losing money in their electronics division, as far as tvs, stereo, home theates, etc., but I believe their gaming division is doing fine. If Microsoft happened to be the only one in the console hardware market we as gamers would be doomed. Nothing against Microsoft, but if any of these three were left to be the only one in that market we all would suffer.

godzillavskong

[QUOTE="ms555"] PHONEMUG....PHONEMUG...PHONEMUG....LISTEN TO ME PLEAAAAASSE!.........Be a good sport Nintendo and Sony have BOTH lost big. Thats just a fact. We can go on and on about who could recover faster, who matter more, which debt is bigger. But lets just stop fooling ourselves. They both have serious debt to take care of. WAIT PHONEMUG! Dont now start extrapolating again. DOnt digress. Dont now post ur numbers again......they BOTH have big debt. End of story The question really should be if it matters. And im going to be frank..... WHEN IM SITTING DOWN WITH MY VITA OR WII U THIS YEAR, HAVING A BLAST PLAYING ZELDA OR GRAVITY RUSH, IM NOT GOING TO HAVE STATISTICS SHEETS ON MY LAP SO THAT I CAN TRY TO DECIDE HOW MUCH FUN IM HAVING. BECAUSE IT DOESNT MATTER HOW MUCH THESE SYSTEMS SELL THATS THE COMPANIES PROBLEM, NOT OURS. HOW THEY SELL DOESNT MAKE ME ENJOY WHAT I PLAY ANY MORE OR LESS. Games are entertainment, theyre about the fun YOU get out of them. YOU phonemug, obviously should never buy a sony system. So just dont, and get on with your life. Surely you have better things to do. SO who is doomed nintendo or sony...my response to that is I DONT GIVE A CRAPphonemug

I say this as an MS fan who analyzes business, not a Nintendo drone.

[QUOTE="phonemug"]

[QUOTE="ms555"] PHONEMUG....PHONEMUG...PHONEMUG....LISTEN TO ME PLEAAAAASSE!.........Be a good sport Nintendo and Sony have BOTH lost big. Thats just a fact. We can go on and on about who could recover faster, who matter more, which debt is bigger. But lets just stop fooling ourselves. They both have serious debt to take care of. WAIT PHONEMUG! Dont now start extrapolating again. DOnt digress. Dont now post ur numbers again......they BOTH have big debt. End of story The question really should be if it matters. And im going to be frank..... WHEN IM SITTING DOWN WITH MY VITA OR WII U THIS YEAR, HAVING A BLAST PLAYING ZELDA OR GRAVITY RUSH, IM NOT GOING TO HAVE STATISTICS SHEETS ON MY LAP SO THAT I CAN TRY TO DECIDE HOW MUCH FUN IM HAVING. BECAUSE IT DOESNT MATTER HOW MUCH THESE SYSTEMS SELL THATS THE COMPANIES PROBLEM, NOT OURS. HOW THEY SELL DOESNT MAKE ME ENJOY WHAT I PLAY ANY MORE OR LESS. Games are entertainment, theyre about the fun YOU get out of them. YOU phonemug, obviously should never buy a sony system. So just dont, and get on with your life. Surely you have better things to do. SO who is doomed nintendo or sony...my response to that is I DONT GIVE A CRAPms555

I say this as an MS fan who analyzes business, not a Nintendo drone.

no

[QUOTE="ms555"][QUOTE="phonemug"]This is the first year in Nintendo's history they have not been profitable. Sony has been losing billions for years. The 3DS is a huge success and they are set to profit again within a few months. They are worth billions and much healthier than Sony.

I say this as an MS fan who analyzes business, not a Nintendo drone.

no

[QUOTE="2Chalupas"]

[QUOTE="PillyChickle"]

Nintendo are run by capable people, how do you think they managed to survive through the GameCube days?

PillyChickle

They survived the gamecube days because their next console was a hit/fad, plus they had the DS? If the Wii flopped, who knows what could have happened.

Nintendo only has 2 products. So if Wii was like Gamecube, all they would have is the DS and the trademarks for their games. That product alone they could probably "survive" on. But just one little handheld product is not going to make them a multibillion corporation. Investors would be running to the exits much more then you might think when an entire company is based on 1 product. I have no idea how the stock performed during the N64/Gamecube days, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess it really tanked hard. Even Apple is not immune from the "gravity' of markets. At some point in the coming decade(s), their products will not be hot, and their multiple will collapse. But of course Apple has such huge cash horde now, that they will probably never again face bankruptcy like they did not too long before the IPOD/itunes.

BTW I don't really think the Sony CEO is terribly competent. The guy was on CNBC a few weeks back touting their various products. He had some weird ass headgear thing that was a 3D display that looked incredibly stupid to me - even if it's impressive technology (simulating a 100" 3D screen or whatever) it just looked crazy and i doubt people will buy it. They were practically making fun of him like he was a senile old grandpa with all these gadgets. Then at the end the guy forgot to even show the Vita! But they brought him back in the next segment and he showed it. Guy came across as not really "on the ball" though.

They survived through the GameCube era because they didn't endure any losses. Nintendo are a smart company, the fact that they've managed to win the seventh generation is a testament to that.

Well they certainly are very conservative with their money. Nintendo is a company that has a very narrow focus, and doesn't take many risks. The Wii was a huge financial success for them. But, at the end of the day they still need the Wii-U to be at least somewhat of a success. It probably will be a succcess, I mean I plan on buying one. However the fact remains if it did fail in the broader market or had a short life, then Nintendo would be in trouble for the future without any other products to fall back on. Especially if the overall market goes away from home console gaming as we know it today.

I'm one that *STRONGLY* believes that if Apple comes out with a successful "do it all" version of Apple TV that also plays games, or a HTPC type device that has games, then that spells "uh-oh" for all of the current Big 3 console makers. Fortunately for everyone the current Apple TV is nothing but a glorified Roku player, so it doesn't even have all the funtionality of a gaming console. But there is potential there for Apple to crush that market just as they did to Sony with the Ipod replacing the Walkman/Discman. I'm actually surpried they haven't gone for that home gaming market yet with a living room player and open marketplace for games designed to be played on a bigger screen (including ports of PC games). It seems logical that they would.

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="ms555"]I actually think your a reasonable guy when you stop being stubborn. ms555

no

[QUOTE="PillyChickle"]

[QUOTE="2Chalupas"]

They survived the gamecube days because their next console was a hit/fad, plus they had the DS? If the Wii flopped, who knows what could have happened.

Nintendo only has 2 products. So if Wii was like Gamecube, all they would have is the DS and the trademarks for their games. That product alone they could probably "survive" on. But just one little handheld product is not going to make them a multibillion corporation. Investors would be running to the exits much more then you might think when an entire company is based on 1 product. I have no idea how the stock performed during the N64/Gamecube days, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess it really tanked hard. Even Apple is not immune from the "gravity' of markets. At some point in the coming decade(s), their products will not be hot, and their multiple will collapse. But of course Apple has such huge cash horde now, that they will probably never again face bankruptcy like they did not too long before the IPOD/itunes.

BTW I don't really think the Sony CEO is terribly competent. The guy was on CNBC a few weeks back touting their various products. He had some weird ass headgear thing that was a 3D display that looked incredibly stupid to me - even if it's impressive technology (simulating a 100" 3D screen or whatever) it just looked crazy and i doubt people will buy it. They were practically making fun of him like he was a senile old grandpa with all these gadgets. Then at the end the guy forgot to even show the Vita! But they brought him back in the next segment and he showed it. Guy came across as not really "on the ball" though.

2Chalupas

They survived through the GameCube era because they didn't endure any losses. Nintendo are a smart company, the fact that they've managed to win the seventh generation is a testament to that.

Well they certainly are very conservative with their money. Nintendo is a company that has a very narrow focus, and doesn't take many risks. The Wii was a huge financial success for them. But, at the end of the day they still need the Wii-U to be at least somewhat of a success. It probably will be a succcess, I mean I plan on buying one. However the fact remains if it did fail in the broader market or had a short life, then Nintendo would be in trouble for the future without any other products to fall back on. Especially if the overall market goes away from home console gaming as we know it today.

I'm one that *STRONGLY* believes that if Apple comes out with a successful "do it all" version of Apple TV that also plays games, or a HTPC type device that has games, then that spells "uh-oh" for all of the current Big 3 console makers. Fortunately for everyone the current Apple TV is nothing but a glorified Roku player, so it doesn't even have all the funtionality of a gaming console. But there is potential there for Apple to crush that market just as they did to Sony with the Ipod replacing the Walkman/Discman. I'm actually surpried they haven't gone for that home gaming market yet with a living room player and open marketplace for games designed to be played on a bigger screen (including ports of PC games). It seems logical that they would.

The Wii was a financial success for them, just as the GameCube was. The Wii was a massive gamble too, it has to be said.

[QUOTE="godzillavskong"]

None are doomed. They're all making money. Sony may be losing money in their electronics division, as far as tvs, stereo, home theates, etc., but I believe their gaming division is doing fine. If Microsoft happened to be the only one in the console hardware market we as gamers would be doomed. Nothing against Microsoft, but if any of these three were left to be the only one in that market we all would suffer.

mysticstryk

I can see Sony (in a couple of years, if they can't turn the company around as a whole) consolodating their different divisions and liquidating many that are not turning a profit. Their gaming division would probably be among those that are kept around.

[QUOTE="2Chalupas"]

[QUOTE="PillyChickle"]

They survived through the GameCube era because they didn't endure any losses. Nintendo are a smart company, the fact that they've managed to win the seventh generation is a testament to that.

PillyChickle

Well they certainly are very conservative with their money. Nintendo is a company that has a very narrow focus, and doesn't take many risks. The Wii was a huge financial success for them. But, at the end of the day they still need the Wii-U to be at least somewhat of a success. It probably will be a succcess, I mean I plan on buying one. However the fact remains if it did fail in the broader market or had a short life, then Nintendo would be in trouble for the future without any other products to fall back on. Especially if the overall market goes away from home console gaming as we know it today.

I'm one that *STRONGLY* believes that if Apple comes out with a successful "do it all" version of Apple TV that also plays games, or a HTPC type device that has games, then that spells "uh-oh" for all of the current Big 3 console makers. Fortunately for everyone the current Apple TV is nothing but a glorified Roku player, so it doesn't even have all the funtionality of a gaming console. But there is potential there for Apple to crush that market just as they did to Sony with the Ipod replacing the Walkman/Discman. I'm actually surpried they haven't gone for that home gaming market yet with a living room player and open marketplace for games designed to be played on a bigger screen (including ports of PC games). It seems logical that they would.

The Wii was a financial success for them, just as the GameCube was. The Wii was a massive gamble too, it has to be said.

I was just about to reply with the Wii being a huge risk that paid off thankfully

Windows 8 is gonna tank so hard. Have you seen it? LOL

LazySloth718

MS doesn't seem to learn that whenever they release an OS so soon after one that's generally liked/popular rolls out that it tanks HARD (see Vista)

[QUOTE="LazySloth718"]

Windows 8 is gonna tank so hard. Have you seen it? LOL

svetzenlether

MS doesn't seem to learn that whenever they release an OS so soon after one that's generally liked/popular rolls out that it tanks HARD (see Vista)