Steam coming to LINUX. Hints Inside..

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kuraimen

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#51 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts

[QUOTE="kuraimen"] Linux distros are much more efficient and well designed and the only thing that keeps it from being the absolute best is some compatibility problems due to market share issues. It is not true that with every update things break. I could say that Windows users are too ignorant to use a real OS. Google uses a lot of free software and they are one of the most wealthy software companies. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.dc337

Linux is actually a lousy choice for opengl performance when compared to Windows:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux_windows_part1&num=11

He was right about there being a problem with Linux updates breaking hardware. They kernel developers are always making changes and don't care if they break your video or wireless card. Linux makes an ok browsing system but it's a waste of time when it comes to gaming.

I was talking for the OS in general not just opengl (that's why Linux is so widely used in server environments, much more stable and efficient). That depends on the driver makers and since Linux is still not popular for games it has performance issues. I'm pretty sure that if it gets popular enough and Nvidia and Ati start making good drivers it will have no problems beating Windows.

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Filthybastrd

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#52 Filthybastrd
Member since 2009 • 7124 Posts

[QUOTE="Filthybastrd"]

Woot! I'll be able to play steam games on my ps3 now!!!!!!!

Or......R...R....RAGE!!!!!

ShadowriverUB

1. They would need to compile it in to PowerPC architecture and most likely it won't happen since last most popular PowerPC computer (aka Mac) switched to x86 :p

2. Linux on PS3 can't get DRI support on RSX because hardware access restrictions ijn Other OS mode, No DRI = No hardware acceleration = No modern games

3. Linux can no longer be used on updated ps3's.

I was just having a cheap laugh at all the people here who rage at Sony over it, even though it affects practically none of them.

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dontshackzmii

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#53 dontshackzmii
Member since 2009 • 6026 Posts

if this happens i will almost never use windows 7

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PandaBear86

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#54 PandaBear86
Member since 2007 • 3389 Posts

if this happens i will almost never use windows 7

dontshackzmii
Just because Steam might work on Linux does not mean all the games will work on it.
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dontshackzmii

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#55 dontshackzmii
Member since 2009 • 6026 Posts

If linux becomes popular we will have no reason to run crappy windows. Under the hood windows is just awful . .inux is made so much better .

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dontshackzmii

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#56 dontshackzmii
Member since 2009 • 6026 Posts

[QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

if this happens i will almost never use windows 7

PandaBear86

Just because Steam might work on Linux does not mean all the games will work on it.

Because mac and linux are both open over time they will get many games .

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Jamex1987

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#57 Jamex1987
Member since 2008 • 2187 Posts

[QUOTE="PandaBear86"][QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

if this happens i will almost never use windows 7

dontshackzmii

Just because Steam might work on Linux does not mean all the games will work on it.

Because mac and linux are both open over time they will get many games .

mac open? lmao. If mac was open we would be able to install the OS on our PC but that's against the Apple TOS. Mac users could install Windows.

No one ever responded to my question. How are they going to get a niche group of people to pay for games when they are use to getting everything for free? I jus tdon't see Valve or any gaming company wasting resources on linux.

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dontshackzmii

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#58 dontshackzmii
Member since 2009 • 6026 Posts

[QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

[QUOTE="PandaBear86"] Just because Steam might work on Linux does not mean all the games will work on it.Jamex1987

Because mac and linux are both open over time they will get many games .

mac open? lmao

No one ever responded to my question. How are they going to get a niche group of people to pay for games when they are use to getting everything for free? I jus tdon't see Valve or any gaming company wasting resources on linux.

why not they waste tons of the worst os on the market windows . they both use Open GL so it wont be hard to port games for both linux and macs . apple alone has over 30,000,000 users witch is almost the populartion of canada plus there are millions of linux users as well . Ubuntu has 14 million by its self.

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Jamex1987

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#59 Jamex1987
Member since 2008 • 2187 Posts

[QUOTE="Jamex1987"]

[QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

Because mac and linux are both open over time they will get many games .

dontshackzmii

mac open? lmao

No one ever responded to my question. How are they going to get a niche group of people to pay for games when they are use to getting everything for free? I jus tdon't see Valve or any gaming company wasting resources on linux.

why not they waste tons of the worst os on the market windows . they both use Open GL so it wont be hard to port games for both linux and macs . apple alone has over 30,000,000 users witch is almost the populartion of canada plus there are millions of linux users as well . Ubuntu has 14 million by its self.

I don't where you get your stats and the fact that they both use openGL means nothing. Windows also has openGL and the mac and linux kernel are not similiar in any way either so porting isn't simple. Porting steam to mac makes sense since most macs come with at least a 9400Gm which is enough to play most of those games they can currently purchase. ALso Mac users purchase software but I have never heard of a linux user purchasing software.

They are wasting on the world worst OS? Last I checked more than 90% of the world is using it.

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dontshackzmii

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#60 dontshackzmii
Member since 2009 • 6026 Posts

[QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

[QUOTE="Jamex1987"]

mac open? lmao

No one ever responded to my question. How are they going to get a niche group of people to pay for games when they are use to getting everything for free? I jus tdon't see Valve or any gaming company wasting resources on linux.

Jamex1987

why not they waste tons of the worst os on the market windows . they both use Open GL so it wont be hard to port games for both linux and macs . apple alone has over 30,000,000 users witch is almost the populartion of canada plus there are millions of linux users as well . Ubuntu has 14 million by its self.

I don't where you get your stats and the fact that they both use openGL means nothing. Windows also has openGL. The mac and linux kernel are not similiar in any way either. Porting steam to mac makes sense since most macs come with at least a 9400Gm which is enough to play most of those games they can currently purchase. Don't see the same thing happening with linux though. Like I said no one buys anything on that platform.

They are wasting on the world worst OS? Last I checked more than 90% of the world is using it.

Market share has nothing to do with windows quality . windows is slower has more bugs and is a million times less safe . Linux is based off of unix so they are alike that's not saying i don't relate to my parents . Most games are made to run on consoles as well so a 9400 can run most games on the market . People only use windows now because Microsoft forced the market to do what they want . Microsoft does anything it can to block its competition

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Jamex1987

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#61 Jamex1987
Member since 2008 • 2187 Posts

[QUOTE="Jamex1987"]

[QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

why not they waste tons of the worst os on the market windows . they both use Open GL so it wont be hard to port games for both linux and macs . apple alone has over 30,000,000 users witch is almost the populartion of canada plus there are millions of linux users as well . Ubuntu has 14 million by its self.

dontshackzmii

I don't where you get your stats and the fact that they both use openGL means nothing. Windows also has openGL. The mac and linux kernel are not similiar in any way either. Porting steam to mac makes sense since most macs come with at least a 9400Gm which is enough to play most of those games they can currently purchase. Don't see the same thing happening with linux though. Like I said no one buys anything on that platform.

They are wasting on the world worst OS? Last I checked more than 90% of the world is using it.

Market share has nothing to do with windows quality . windows is slower has more bugs and is a million times less safe . Linux is based off of unix so they are alike that's not saying i don't relate to my parents . Most games are made to run on consoles as well so a 9400 can run most games on the market . People only use windows now because Microsoft forced the market to do what they want . Microsoft does anything it can to block its competition

Unix has nothing to with it. what matters is the kernel and they are not similiar in any way. hell Linux doesn't even run properly on a Mac.
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Hexagon_777

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#62 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts

I am loving Ubuntu and haven't booted up Windows Vista since I installed Ubuntu. This news is only making it ever so much sweeter.

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kuraimen

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#63 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts
[QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

[QUOTE="Jamex1987"] I don't where you get your stats and the fact that they both use openGL means nothing. Windows also has openGL. The mac and linux kernel are not similiar in any way either. Porting steam to mac makes sense since most macs come with at least a 9400Gm which is enough to play most of those games they can currently purchase. Don't see the same thing happening with linux though. Like I said no one buys anything on that platform.

They are wasting on the world worst OS? Last I checked more than 90% of the world is using it.

Jamex1987

Market share has nothing to do with windows quality . windows is slower has more bugs and is a million times less safe . Linux is based off of unix so they are alike that's not saying i don't relate to my parents . Most games are made to run on consoles as well so a 9400 can run most games on the market . People only use windows now because Microsoft forced the market to do what they want . Microsoft does anything it can to block its competition

Unix has nothing to with it. what matters is the kernel and they are not similiar in any way. hell Linux doesn't even run properly on a Mac.

Apple uses Intel-based arquitectures since some time now. You can install Linux perfectly on those arquitectures. And yes Unix has to do a lot with it. Porting from Mac to Linux is pretty easy because they share the same basic filesystem, c++ libraries, etc. You really should do some research before claiming that you know what you're talking about. And I use free software and I also pay for games and have a PS3 so yes, free software users also pay for stuff, your misinformed opinion won't change that.
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Jamex1987

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#64 Jamex1987
Member since 2008 • 2187 Posts

[QUOTE="Jamex1987"][QUOTE="dontshackzmii"]

Market share has nothing to do with windows quality . windows is slower has more bugs and is a million times less safe . Linux is based off of unix so they are alike that's not saying i don't relate to my parents . Most games are made to run on consoles as well so a 9400 can run most games on the market . People only use windows now because Microsoft forced the market to do what they want . Microsoft does anything it can to block its competition

kuraimen

Unix has nothing to with it. what matters is the kernel and they are not similiar in any way. hell Linux doesn't even run properly on a Mac.

Apple uses Intel-based arquitectures since some time now. You can install Linux perfectly on those arquitectures. And yes Unix has to do a lot with it. Porting from Mac to Linux is pretty easy because they share the same basic filesystem, c++ libraries, etc. You really should do some research before claiming that you know what you're talking about. And I use free software and I also pay for games and have a PS3 so yes, free software users also pay for stuff, your misinformed opinion won't change that.

all Mac APIs are not compatible with linux so no porting isn't an easy task. Steam games are programmed with cocoa and carbon none of which work on linux. Linux has a lot to ironing out before it could even consider gaming. For one lots of the audio drivers are terrible. I tried Ubuntu just recently and switching to 5.1 resulted in terrible sound quality.

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kuraimen

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#65 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Jamex1987"] Unix has nothing to with it. what matters is the kernel and they are not similiar in any way. hell Linux doesn't even run properly on a Mac.Jamex1987

Apple uses Intel-based arquitectures since some time now. You can install Linux perfectly on those arquitectures. And yes Unix has to do a lot with it. Porting from Mac to Linux is pretty easy because they share the same basic filesystem, c++ libraries, etc. You really should do some research before claiming that you know what you're talking about. And I use free software and I also pay for games and have a PS3 so yes, free software users also pay for stuff, your misinformed opinion won't change that.

all Mac APIs are not compatible with linux so no porting isn't an easy task. Steam games are programmed with cocoa and carbon none of which work on linux. Linux has a lot to ironing out before it could even consider gaming. For one lots of the audio drivers are terrible. I tried Ubuntu just recently and switching to 5.1 resulted in terrible sound quality.

I agree that a lot of drivers need work but, as I said, it depends on the hardware companies (not the OS) and unless Linux doesn't become popular enough we won't see a serious support for games. Anyways, Linux-based OSs are not the bad OS you made them to be, most people know Linux is just better built than Windows and if it wasn't for Microsoft monopolizing more than 90% of the market share Windows would be rendered obsolete by better quality products.
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Jamex1987

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#66 Jamex1987
Member since 2008 • 2187 Posts

So you are saying the majority of PC users would want to use a Terminal and non GUI applications? I don't see it. Linux distros lack polish and hasn't changed much over the years. People use Windows because it is easy to use hardware is cheap and all the application they could ever need is available for it.

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kuraimen

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#67 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts

So you are saying the majority of PC users want to use a Terminal and non GUI applications? I don't see it. Linux distros lack polish and hasn't changed much over the years.

Jamex1987
What are you talking about? you can use a distro like Ubuntu without using the terminal and using the terminal gives you much more control and customization options than Windows could ever dream off. You can basically choose how to use Linux while Windows copletely limits your options as a user. Most people don't use Linux because they grew up with Windows and are used to that particular architecture but that doesn't make it better. If anyone uses Linux for as long as these people use Windows then they'll find that Linux is in fact pretty easy and intuitive.
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ShadowriverUB

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#68 ShadowriverUB
Member since 2009 • 5515 Posts

So you are saying the majority of PC users would want to use a Terminal and non GUI applications? I don't see it. Linux distros lack polish and hasn't changed much over the years. People use Windows because it is easy to use and all the application they could ever need is available for it.Jamex1987

Huh? There a lot of distros that you don't need to touch terminal to use it, people use Linux terminal because it's actually more useful then Windows terminal?

Besides why you so pissed that someone had it's opinion on operating system? are you scared that Linux users will finally get games? :)

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skektek

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#69 skektek
Member since 2004 • 6530 Posts

So you are saying the majority of PC users would want to use a Terminal and non GUI applications? I don't see it. Linux distros lack polish and hasn't changed much over the years. People use Windows because it is easy to use hardware is cheap and all the application they could ever need is available for it.

Jamex1987

Have you ever even used Linux?

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angelkimne

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#70 angelkimne
Member since 2006 • 14037 Posts
[QUOTE="Jamex1987"]

So you are saying the majority of PC users want to use a Terminal and non GUI applications? I don't see it. Linux distros lack polish and hasn't changed much over the years.

kuraimen
What are you talking about? you can use a distro like Ubuntu without using the terminal and using the terminal gives you much more control and customization options than Windows could ever dream off. You can basically choose how to use Linux while Windows copletely limits your options as a user. Most people don't use Linux because they grew up with Windows and are used to that particular architecture but that doesn't make it better. If anyone uses Linux for as long as these people use Windows then they'll find that Linux is in fact pretty easy and intuitive.

The problem isn't really that people are used to Windows, it's that nearly all computers you buy in the shop come with it as default. I'm sure if computers came without an OS, Ubuntu would be a hell of a lot more popular than it is now and Windows a hell of a lot less. As it stands, MS have an unhealthy monopoly on the OS market.
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kuraimen

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#71 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts
[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Jamex1987"]

So you are saying the majority of PC users want to use a Terminal and non GUI applications? I don't see it. Linux distros lack polish and hasn't changed much over the years.

angelkimne
What are you talking about? you can use a distro like Ubuntu without using the terminal and using the terminal gives you much more control and customization options than Windows could ever dream off. You can basically choose how to use Linux while Windows copletely limits your options as a user. Most people don't use Linux because they grew up with Windows and are used to that particular architecture but that doesn't make it better. If anyone uses Linux for as long as these people use Windows then they'll find that Linux is in fact pretty easy and intuitive.

The problem isn't really that people are used to Windows, it's that nearly all computers you buy in the shop come with it as default. I'm sure if computers came without an OS, Ubuntu would be a hell of a lot more popular than it is now and Windows a hell of a lot less. As it stands, MS have an unhealthy monopoly on the OS market.

I agree, that's one of the ways they have managed to secure almost all the market. I'm still baffled as to how MS is not considered a monopoly in legal terms (well except in Europe I guess).
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Teuf_

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#72 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

The problem isn't really that people are used to Windows, it's that nearly all computers you buy in the shop come with it as default. I'm sure if computers came without an OS, Ubuntu would be a hell of a lot more popular than it is now and Windows a hell of a lot less. As it stands, MS have an unhealthy monopoly on the OS market.angelkimne


Most people who buy a PC don't want to install an OS. They want a PC that's ready to go as soon as they take it out of the box, and that can run all of the programs they're used to running.

There's no conspiracy to get companies like HP to put Windows in their laptops, that's just what people want. If people wanted laptops with no OS or with Linux installed, they would sell that instead. I'm sure a company like HP would love to be able use a free OS rather than paying MS $100 per license.

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angelkimne

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#73 angelkimne
Member since 2006 • 14037 Posts

[QUOTE="angelkimne"]The problem isn't really that people are used to Windows, it's that nearly all computers you buy in the shop come with it as default. I'm sure if computers came without an OS, Ubuntu would be a hell of a lot more popular than it is now and Windows a hell of a lot less. As it stands, MS have an unhealthy monopoly on the OS market.Teufelhuhn



Most people who buy a PC don't want to install an OS. They want a PC that's ready to go as soon as they take it out of the box, and that can run all of the programs they're used to running.

There's no conspiracy to get companies like HP to put Windows in their laptops, that's just what people want. If people wanted laptops with no OS or with Linux installed, they would sell that instead. I'm sure a company like HP would love to be able use a free OS rather than paying MS $100 per license.

Fair argument, I guess. But most of it then comes down to kuraimen's point - ignorance. Get rid of the ignorance, and the monopoly will follow.

Edit: Has any large company actually tried selling a desktop PC with a recent version of Ubuntu installed? I know the public would naturally rather have Windows but I would of thought the price difference would help, and along with a bit of advertising by the company on the topic of how user-friendly Ubunti is I'd think it could be a success.

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Fuhgeddabouditt

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#74 Fuhgeddabouditt
Member since 2010 • 5468 Posts
[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Jamex1987"]

So you are saying the majority of PC users want to use a Terminal and non GUI applications? I don't see it. Linux distros lack polish and hasn't changed much over the years.

angelkimne
What are you talking about? you can use a distro like Ubuntu without using the terminal and using the terminal gives you much more control and customization options than Windows could ever dream off. You can basically choose how to use Linux while Windows copletely limits your options as a user. Most people don't use Linux because they grew up with Windows and are used to that particular architecture but that doesn't make it better. If anyone uses Linux for as long as these people use Windows then they'll find that Linux is in fact pretty easy and intuitive.

The problem isn't really that people are used to Windows, it's that nearly all computers you buy in the shop come with it as default. I'm sure if computers came without an OS, Ubuntu would be a hell of a lot more popular than it is now and Windows a hell of a lot less. As it stands, MS have an unhealthy monopoly on the OS market.

Mark Shuttleworth, the dude behind Ubuntu, is looking to change that with 10.10 I believe. To have Ubuntu right next to Windows when people get a new PC. Something along those lines.
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RichardStallman

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#75 RichardStallman
Member since 2009 • 1233 Posts
No, it's not official.
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angelkimne

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#76 angelkimne
Member since 2006 • 14037 Posts

[QUOTE="angelkimne"][QUOTE="kuraimen"] What are you talking about? you can use a distro like Ubuntu without using the terminal and using the terminal gives you much more control and customization options than Windows could ever dream off. You can basically choose how to use Linux while Windows copletely limits your options as a user. Most people don't use Linux because they grew up with Windows and are used to that particular architecture but that doesn't make it better. If anyone uses Linux for as long as these people use Windows then they'll find that Linux is in fact pretty easy and intuitive.Fuhgeddabouditt
The problem isn't really that people are used to Windows, it's that nearly all computers you buy in the shop come with it as default. I'm sure if computers came without an OS, Ubuntu would be a hell of a lot more popular than it is now and Windows a hell of a lot less. As it stands, MS have an unhealthy monopoly on the OS market.

Mark Shuttleworth, the dude behind Ubuntu, is looking to change that with 10.10 I believe. To have Ubuntu right next to Windows when people get a new PC. Something along those lines.

Wikipedia tells me he has UK/South Africa dual citizenship and was the second self-funded space tourist. 0.o Interesting guy.

Oh, and Gamespot really needs a proper version of the 0.o smiley. It looks out of place atm :(

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Teuf_

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#77 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

Fair argument, I guess. But most of it then comes down to kuraimen's point - ignorance. Get rid of the ignorance, and the monopoly will follow.

angelkimne



Umm...I use Windows on my home PC's and i'm friggin' programmer. I don't think I make that choice due to ignorance. :?

I think a lot of people just want to stick to what they're used to, and also want an OS where they can still use their programs and hardware.



Edit: Has any large company actually tried selling a desktop PC with a recent version of Ubuntu installed? I know the public would naturally rather have Windows but I would of thought the price difference would help, and along with a bit of advertising by the company on the topic of how user-friendly Ubunti is I'd think it could be a success.

angelkimne



You mean like Dell? Netbook makers have traditionally offered Linux options as well. IBM offered ThinkPads with Red Hat installed for years, until Lenovo bought that line.

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kuraimen

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#78 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts

[QUOTE="angelkimne"]The problem isn't really that people are used to Windows, it's that nearly all computers you buy in the shop come with it as default. I'm sure if computers came without an OS, Ubuntu would be a hell of a lot more popular than it is now and Windows a hell of a lot less. As it stands, MS have an unhealthy monopoly on the OS market.Teufelhuhn



Most people who buy a PC don't want to install an OS. They want a PC that's ready to go as soon as they take it out of the box, and that can run all of the programs they're used to running.

There's no conspiracy to get companies like HP to put Windows in their laptops, that's just what people want. If people wanted laptops with no OS or with Linux installed, they would sell that instead. I'm sure a company like HP would love to be able use a free OS rather than paying MS $100 per license.

With MS there's always more than meets the eye. From the lawsuit against MS in the US:

17. These barriers magnify and reinforce each other because the value of an operating system to a consumer is directly related to two factors: the availability of a variety of high quality applications that run on that system, and the number of users who use that operating system and thus are able to share information and work with the system without additional training. ISVs, in turn, tend to develop applications for operating systems with a large installed base of users, and consumers gravitate towards operating systems with a large base of applications.

18. Microsoft's anticompetitive contracting practices described below significantly increase the already high barriers to entry and expansion facing competitors in the PC operating system market. These practices reduce the likelihood that OEMs will license and promote non-Microsoft PC operating systems, make it more difficult for Microsoft's competitors to persuade ISVs to develop applications for their operating systems, and impede the ability of a non-Microsoft PC operating system to expand its installed base of users.

Microsoft's Exclusionary and Anticompetitive OEM
Licenses Foreclose Access to the OEM Channel by
Microsoft's PC Operating System Competitors

19. In 1980, IBM agreed to license the original version of MS-DOS from Microsoft for IBM's PC, which experienced considerable success. Other OEMs also used MS-DOS in order better to emulate the IBM PC. Microsoft quickly dominated and gained a monopoly in the market for PC operating systems. It then entered into a series of exclusionary and anticompetitive contract terms to maintain its monopoly.

20. Because of Microsoft's monopoly position in the marketplace, OEMs believe that they must offer MS-DOS and Windows to their customers. Profit margins in the computer hardware industry are very thin and OEMs want to obtain MS-DOS and Windows at the lowest possible cost. Microsoft has induced many OEMs to execute anticompetitive "per processor" contracts for MS-DOS and Windows, even though many would prefer to preserve their freedom to offer PCs with non-Microsoft operating systems.

Microsoft's Licenses Impose a Penalty or Tax Paid to
Microsoft on OEMs' Use of Non-Microsoft PC Operating Systems

21. Microsoft's licenses impose a penalty or "tax" paid to Microsoft upon OEMs' use of competing PC operating systems. "Per processor" licenses require OEMs to pay a royalty for each computer the OEM sells containing a particular processor (e.g., an Intel 386 microprocessor) whether or not the OEM has included a Microsoft operating system with that computer.

22. Microsoft's per processor contracts penalize OEMs, during the life of the contract, for installing a non-Microsoft operating system. OEMs that have signed per processor contracts with Microsoft are deterred from using competitive alternatives to Microsoft operating systems.

The Contract Length of Microsoft's Anticompetitive
Per Processor Contracts Magnifies Its Exclusionary Effects

23. Microsoft further impedes PC operating system competitors by executing long-term contracts with major OEMs, and by requiring minimum commitments and crediting unused balances to future contracts, which effectively extends the contract term and makes it economically unattractive for an OEM to install a non- Microsoft operating system.

24. Microsoft's exclusionary licenses are often for a duration of three years or more -- a period of time equal to, or exceeding, the product life cycle of most PC operating system products. Microsoft often extends the term of its OEM licenses through amendment. Thus, Microsoft's anticompetitive per processor contracts can extend to beyond five years.

Microsoft's Exclusionary Contracts Foreclose
Other PC Operating System Vendors From a Substantial
and Critically Important Segment of the Market

25. Access to the OEM channel is critical to the success of a competing operating system. The overwhelming majority of PCs are sold with a pre-installed operating system. Thus, to reach the ultimate consumer of an operating system, it is important that competitors have access to OEMs. Operating system vendors, as well as OEMs, confirm that successful entry is extremely difficult in the absence of "proper support" in the OEM channel in the form of public commitments to sell a new operating system.

26. Since 1988, Microsoft has induced major OEMs to execute per processor contracts, many of which extend for several years. These OEMs are critical to the success of a new operating system entrant; it would be virtually impossible for a new entrant to achieve commercial success solely through license agreements with small OEMs that are not covered by Microsoft's per processor agreements. According to Microsoft, in fiscal year 1993, per processor agreements accounted for an estimated 60% of Microsoft's MS-DOS sales to OEMs and 43% of Windows sales to OEMs.

27. Competing operating system developers, finding the largest OEMs contractually bound by Microsoft's exclusionary licenses, are disadvantaged in their efforts to bring to the consumer less expensive and/or better quality operating system products.

28. The effect of Microsoft's licensing practices has been to exclude competitors by unreasonable and anticompetitive means and to lessen competition in the relevant market. Microsoft's practices deter OEMs from entering into licensing agreements with competing operating system providers, discourage OEMs who agree to sell non-Microsoft operating systems from promoting those products, and raise the price of computers sold with competing operating systems, thereby depressing the demand and restricting the output of these products. Microsoft's licensing practices have effectively foreclosed a substantial share of the relevant market; they are exclusionary, anticompetitive, and not justified by legitimate business considerations.

Somethings about the trials:

Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates was called "evasive and nonresponsive" by a source present at a session in which Gates was questioned on his deposition.[2] He argued over the definitions of words such as "compete", "concerned", "ask", and "we".[3] BusinessWeek reported, "Early rounds of his deposition show him offering obfuscatory answers and saying 'I don't recall' so many times that even the presiding judge had to chuckle. Worse, many of the technology chief's denials and pleas of ignorance have been directly refuted by prosecutors with snippets of E-mail Gates both sent and received."[4]Intel Vice-President Steven McGeady, called as a witness, quoted Paul Maritz, a senior Microsoft vice president as having stated an intention to "extinguish" and "smother" rival Netscape Communications Corporation and to "cut off Netscape's air supply" by giving away a clone of Netscape's flagship product for free. The Microsoft executive denied the allegations.[5]

...

Judge Jackson issued his findings of fact[11] on November 5, 1999, which stated that Microsoft's dominance of the x86 based personal computer operating systems market constituted a monopoly, and that Microsoft had taken actions to crush threats to that monopoly, including Apple, Java, Netscape, Lotus Notes, Real Networks, Linux, and others. Then on April 3, 2000, he issued a two-part ruling: his conclusions of law were that Microsoft had committed monopolization, attempted monopolization, and tying in violation of Sections 1 and 2 of the Sherman Act, and his remedy was that Microsoft must be broken into two separate units, one to produce the operating system, and one to produce other software components.

...

The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned Judge Jackson's rulings against Microsoft. This was partly because the Appellate court had adopted a "drastically altered scope of liability" under which the Remedies could be taken, and also partly due to the embargoed interviews Judge Jackson had given to the news media while he was still hearing the case, in violation of the Code of Conduct for US Judges.[13] Judge Jackson did not attend the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals hearing, in which the appeals court judges accused him of unethical conduct and determined he should have recused himself from the case.[14]

Judge Jackson's response to this was that Microsoft's conduct itself was the cause of any "perceived bias"; Microsoft executives had "proved, time and time again, to be inaccurate, misleading, evasive, and transparently false. ... Microsoft is a company with an institutional disdain for both the truth and for rules of law that lesser entities must respect. It is also a company whose senior management is not averse to offering specious testimony to support spurious defenses to claims of its wrongdoing."[15]

Today MS keeps having questionable relations with hardware vendors: http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/132989.asp

And charging other companies for using Linux! http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458849-16.html

If that's not disgusting and a way to try to control the market I don't know what is.


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SkyZ00

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#79 SkyZ00
Member since 2008 • 115 Posts

I was running steam on linux 3 years ago using Wine.

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Heil68

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#80 Heil68
Member since 2004 • 60833 Posts
I don't see the point because of the install base , but if it can be released with little cost to Valve, then I don't see why it would hurt.
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angelkimne

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#81 angelkimne
Member since 2006 • 14037 Posts

[QUOTE="angelkimne"]

Fair argument, I guess. But most of it then comes down to kuraimen's point - ignorance. Get rid of the ignorance, and the monopoly will follow.

Teufelhuhn



Umm...I use Windows on my home PC's and i'm friggin' programmer. I don't think I make that choice due to ignorance. :?

I think a lot of people just want to stick to what they're used to, and also want an OS where they can still use their programs and hardware.

I know there are plenty of people who, given full knowledge and considering the added cost, would still choose Windows. Most people on here would probably agree with you due to games compatibility. Now I think about it, compatibility is a big part of the problem; since Windows is 'the one' with >90% market share, all software is made for it with most either exclusive or just on Mac as well(which isn't a standalone OS, and will never compete because of the price of the hardware it comes with). Because of that, I don't think any other OS will have a chance to develop much beyond the tiny percentages they scramble atm...

My view, at least.

You mean like Dell? Netbook makers have traditionally offered Linux options as well. IBM offered ThinkPads with Red Hat installed for years, until Lenovo bought that line.

Teufelhuhn

Odd that they do it for notebooks but not desktops. I guess it's due to performance.

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angelkimne

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#82 angelkimne
Member since 2006 • 14037 Posts
kuraimen
Yeah, my post is pretty much irrelevant now. Ignore it. :P
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ShadowriverUB

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#83 ShadowriverUB
Member since 2009 • 5515 Posts

I was running steam on linux 3 years ago using Wine.

SkyZ00

Thats not the same. Wine is good for small software, but with something bigger it starts to work in chancky way. Nothing will replace nativness

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Jamex1987

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#84 Jamex1987
Member since 2008 • 2187 Posts

You should look at the Linux Sucks video from the Linux development community. Remember this is from the linux community themselves and they know and can at least admit that linux at this current stage does suck for desktops and are looking for ways top make it better. There are some good points on why it sucksand ideas on how they could make it better. They do love linux but it really does suck.

http://lunduke.com/?p=429

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ronvalencia

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#85 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

[QUOTE="angelkimne"]The problem isn't really that people are used to Windows, it's that nearly all computers you buy in the shop come with it as default. I'm sure if computers came without an OS, Ubuntu would be a hell of a lot more popular than it is now and Windows a hell of a lot less. As it stands, MS have an unhealthy monopoly on the OS market.Teufelhuhn



Most people who buy a PC don't want to install an OS. They want a PC that's ready to go as soon as they take it out of the box, and that can run all of the programs they're used to running.

There's no conspiracy to get companies like HP to put Windows in their laptops, that's just what people want. If people wanted laptops with no OS or with Linux installed, they would sell that instead. I'm sure a company like HP would love to be able use a free OS rather than paying MS $100 per license.

Windows 7 OEM can be less than $99.99 (OEM retail from newegg)e.g. refer http://www.pricewatch.com/software_oper_system

Large OEM like HP or DELL has would have volume discounts and co-marketing funds from Microsoft.

Windows 7 OEM for HP. http://www.trustprice.com/668624/microsoft-microsoft-windows-home.html

Qty ≥ 1: $86.25
Qty ≥ 5: $80.63
Qty ≥ 10: $75.00

Lower tier vendors shipping MS Windows also comes under the protection of Microsoft patents. 1st Tier vendors ussualy has other own patents defence e.g. ACER has AmigaOS related patents, HP has Palm patents and 'etc'.

HTC has licenced Microsoft patents for their AndroidOS phones and forms as the part for their legal defence against Apple.

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Fuhgeddabouditt

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#86 Fuhgeddabouditt
Member since 2010 • 5468 Posts

You should look at the Linux Sucks video from the Linux development community. Remember this is from the linux community themselves and they know and can at least admit that linux at this current stage does suck for desktops and are looking for ways top make it better. There are some good points on why it sucksand ideas on how they could make it better. They do love linux but it really does suck.

http://lunduke.com/?p=429

Jamex1987
I've seen this already but again, I will repeat. The support for Linux is growing. Big name companies are showing their support for this platform. Overtime, Linux as a whole, the driver issues, etc, will improve. They have been for the past 2 yrs or so and it will only get better.
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Hexagon_777

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#87 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts

[QUOTE="angelkimne"][QUOTE="kuraimen"] What are you talking about? you can use a distro like Ubuntu without using the terminal and using the terminal gives you much more control and customization options than Windows could ever dream off. You can basically choose how to use Linux while Windows copletely limits your options as a user. Most people don't use Linux because they grew up with Windows and are used to that particular architecture but that doesn't make it better. If anyone uses Linux for as long as these people use Windows then they'll find that Linux is in fact pretty easy and intuitive.Fuhgeddabouditt
The problem isn't really that people are used to Windows, it's that nearly all computers you buy in the shop come with it as default. I'm sure if computers came without an OS, Ubuntu would be a hell of a lot more popular than it is now and Windows a hell of a lot less. As it stands, MS have an unhealthy monopoly on the OS market.

Mark Shuttleworth, the dude behind Ubuntu, is looking to change that with 10.10 I believe. To have Ubuntu right next to Windows when people get a new PC. Something along those lines.

Do you have any articles that I could read on the matter? I have a keen interest in it ever since installing Ubuntu and perceiving it as wildly superior to Windows.

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Fuhgeddabouditt

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#89 Fuhgeddabouditt
Member since 2010 • 5468 Posts

[QUOTE="Fuhgeddabouditt"][QUOTE="angelkimne"]The problem isn't really that people are used to Windows, it's that nearly all computers you buy in the shop come with it as default. I'm sure if computers came without an OS, Ubuntu would be a hell of a lot more popular than it is now and Windows a hell of a lot less. As it stands, MS have an unhealthy monopoly on the OS market.Hexagon_777

Mark Shuttleworth, the dude behind Ubuntu, is looking to change that with 10.10 I believe. To have Ubuntu right next to Windows when people get a new PC. Something along those lines.

Do you have any articles that I could read on the matter? I have a keen interest in it ever since installing Ubuntu and perceiving it as wildly superior to Windows.

From Mark Shuttleworth's Blog : Instant-on, dual boot installations are a new frontier for us. Over the past two years we have made great leaps forward as a first class option for PC OEM's, who today ship millions of PC's around the world with Ubuntu pre-installed. But traditionally, it's been an "either/or" proposition – either Windows in markets that prefer it, or Ubuntu in markets that don't. The dual-boot opportunity gives us the chance to put a free software foot forward even in markets where people use Windows as a matter of course.

The Ubuntu Light range is available to OEM's today. Each image will be hand-crafted to boot fastest on that specific hardware, the application load reduced to the minimum, and it comes with tools for Windows which assist in the management of the dual-boot experience. Initially, the focus is on the Netbook Light version based on Unity, but in future we expect to do a Light version of the desktop, too.

Given the requirement to customise the Light versions for specific hardware, there won't be a general-purpose downloadable image of Ubuntu Light on ubuntu.com.

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/383

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1q3er5

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#90 1q3er5
Member since 2003 • 759 Posts
google should gang up with steam, imagine google chrome + steam = microsoft wetting their pants
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Hexagon_777

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#91 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts

google should gang up with steam, imagine google chrome + steam = microsoft wetting their pants1q3er5
I don't quite follow. Chrome is already available for Linux and is already making Microsoft wet its pants.

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HuusAsking

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#92 HuusAsking
Member since 2006 • 15270 Posts
[QUOTE="Jamex1987"]

So you are saying the majority of PC users want to use a Terminal and non GUI applications? I don't see it. Linux distros lack polish and hasn't changed much over the years.

kuraimen
What are you talking about? you can use a distro like Ubuntu without using the terminal and using the terminal gives you much more control and customization options than Windows could ever dream off. You can basically choose how to use Linux while Windows copletely limits your options as a user. Most people don't use Linux because they grew up with Windows and are used to that particular architecture but that doesn't make it better. If anyone uses Linux for as long as these people use Windows then they'll find that Linux is in fact pretty easy and intuitive.

Four words: Keep It Simple, Stupid. For the average computer user, going to a text console is an instant fail. Why do you think PCs didn't really take off until the 90's with the rapid evolution of Windows?
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HuusAsking

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#93 HuusAsking
Member since 2006 • 15270 Posts
[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Jamex1987"]

So you are saying the majority of PC users want to use a Terminal and non GUI applications? I don't see it. Linux distros lack polish and hasn't changed much over the years.

angelkimne
What are you talking about? you can use a distro like Ubuntu without using the terminal and using the terminal gives you much more control and customization options than Windows could ever dream off. You can basically choose how to use Linux while Windows copletely limits your options as a user. Most people don't use Linux because they grew up with Windows and are used to that particular architecture but that doesn't make it better. If anyone uses Linux for as long as these people use Windows then they'll find that Linux is in fact pretty easy and intuitive.

The problem isn't really that people are used to Windows, it's that nearly all computers you buy in the shop come with it as default. I'm sure if computers came without an OS, Ubuntu would be a hell of a lot more popular than it is now and Windows a hell of a lot less. As it stands, MS have an unhealthy monopoly on the OS market.

Until you buy something like TurboTax that only runs on Windows. A lot of software needed by the average window aren't available for Linux. And no, WINE doesn't work on a lot of them, either.
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HuusAsking

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#94 HuusAsking
Member since 2006 • 15270 Posts

[QUOTE="angelkimne"][QUOTE="kuraimen"] What are you talking about? you can use a distro like Ubuntu without using the terminal and using the terminal gives you much more control and customization options than Windows could ever dream off. You can basically choose how to use Linux while Windows copletely limits your options as a user. Most people don't use Linux because they grew up with Windows and are used to that particular architecture but that doesn't make it better. If anyone uses Linux for as long as these people use Windows then they'll find that Linux is in fact pretty easy and intuitive.Fuhgeddabouditt
The problem isn't really that people are used to Windows, it's that nearly all computers you buy in the shop come with it as default. I'm sure if computers came without an OS, Ubuntu would be a hell of a lot more popular than it is now and Windows a hell of a lot less. As it stands, MS have an unhealthy monopoly on the OS market.

Mark Shuttleworth, the dude behind Ubuntu, is looking to change that with 10.10 I believe. To have Ubuntu right next to Windows when people get a new PC. Something along those lines.

Haven't a lot of companies (Walmart included) tried selling Linux PCs with Windows-like UIs on them? Several times? It boils down to two big problems, neither of which will be easy to fix: (1) it's not what they're used to, and (2) it doesn't run the software they buy. The economics of this situation (a practical de facto monopoly) may require legislative mandate to provide any kind of influence on what has essentially become a vicious circle.

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Hexagon_777

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#95 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Jamex1987"]So you are saying the majority of PC users want to use a Terminal and non GUI applications? I don't see it. Linux distros lack polish and hasn't changed much over the years.HuusAsking
What are you talking about? you can use a distro like Ubuntu without using the terminal and using the terminal gives you much more control and customization options than Windows could ever dream off. You can basically choose how to use Linux while Windows copletely limits your options as a user. Most people don't use Linux because they grew up with Windows and are used to that particular architecture but that doesn't make it better. If anyone uses Linux for as long as these people use Windows then they'll find that Linux is in fact pretty easy and intuitive.

Four words: Keep It Simple, Stupid. For the average computer user, going to a text console is an instant fail. Why do you think PCs didn't really take off until the 90's with the rapid evolution of Windows?

I agree, keeping it simple is the best way and Ubuntu is simple enough for even my parents to understand how to use it. I don't know about other Linux distributions but all you really need to do in Ubuntu is be capable of the language of your choice.

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1q3er5

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#96 1q3er5
Member since 2003 • 759 Posts

[QUOTE="1q3er5"]google should gang up with steam, imagine google chrome + steam = microsoft wetting their pantsHexagon_777

I don't quite follow. Chrome is already available for Linux and is already making Microsoft wet its pants.

The only reason I use windows 7 is because linux has lousy game support, if a steam client is released for Chome OS or other linux clients WITH A LARGE LIBRARY OF WINDOWS BASED GAMES I wouldn't hesitate to just wipe windows 7 off my system
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Hexagon_777

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#97 Hexagon_777
Member since 2007 • 20348 Posts

[QUOTE="Hexagon_777"][QUOTE="1q3er5"]google should gang up with steam, imagine google chrome + steam = microsoft wetting their pants1q3er5
I don't quite follow. Chrome is already available for Linux and is already making Microsoft wet its pants.

The only reason I use windows 7 is because linux has lousy game support, if a steam client is released for Chome OS or other linux clients WITH A LARGE LIBRARY OF WINDOWS BASED GAMES I wouldn't hesitate to just wipe windows 7 off my system

I see how it is. That would require a significant increase in market share I would assume and I have been telling people about Ubuntu since I use it myself and have helped some install it as well. Linux is moving along so slowly when it comes to market share, though.

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skektek

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#98 skektek
Member since 2004 • 6530 Posts

[QUOTE="1q3er5"][QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]I don't quite follow. Chrome is already available for Linux and is already making Microsoft wet its pants.Hexagon_777

The only reason I use windows 7 is because linux has lousy game support, if a steam client is released for Chome OS or other linux clients WITH A LARGE LIBRARY OF WINDOWS BASED GAMES I wouldn't hesitate to just wipe windows 7 off my system

I see how it is. That would require a significant increase in market share I would assume and I have been telling people about Ubuntu since I use it myself and have helped some install it as well. Linux is moving along so slowly when it comes to market share, though.

If Linux ever comes into market dominance it will be through a paradigm shift not through the conversion of established users (it will eventually come to that, but it wont' start from there). It will be a something like a new fringe group of users that comes into prominence. Netbooks might have been an example of this had they not been bastardized from Small Cheap Linux devices to Small Expensive Windows devices. Smartphones or Tablets may be the next candidates as they gain additional power and functionality with Android/Chrome and WebOS. Another example would be the increasing dependence on web based applications (or "The Cloud"): almost everything can and is done through the browser, making the OS choice trivial.