Super Smash Bros. Brawl can't be classified as a competitive fighting game

[QUOTE="Sky-"]

[QUOTE="LegatoSkyheart"]

How can it be a crap competition?

A Competition is a Competition! The Goal is to WIN!

yoshi_64

Winning in Brawl leans heavily on what stage you use and what characters you use...the player's skill level isn't anywhere near as big of a factor in Brawl as it is in other fighters.

[QUOTE="Sky-"]

[QUOTE="Ribnarak"]

and this is the thing the TC doesnt quite understand.

I PLAY competitively with my friend.
HOwever i agree that it isnt as competitive as other smash bros.

yoshi_64

My main issue is with the people who play in Brawl tournaments...the game has ridiculous balance problems and you don't stand a chance if you use some of the low tier characters like Link or Captain Falcoln.

Have you ever seen a good Falcon player win against a Snake or Meta Knight that is just as good, or perhaps even a little worse? Or in a video online?

It's laughable to consider Marth and wavedashing/moonwalking broken, when compared to Meta Knight and Infinity Dimensional Cape. Again, I actually have played Brawl for a long time. I still consider it fun. Competitive meant for tournament play? No. It's clear that Sakurai intended for Brawl to be a different kind of game. Most of the people giving Brawl a competitive tournament scene are just the stalwart fans unwilling to accept the fact that it's not a game meant for hardcore play. And from the way you describe professional play in Melee, you're beginning to sound like the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.princeofshapeir

For you though, you're complaining about the changes in the game, you don't willingly embrace them, thus... you decide to throw away any conception that the game has a competitive edge for anyone, that the game cannot be taken to a deeper level of play than exploiting and spamming. You said yourself it can be Competitive earlier, it may not be a technical heavy fighter like Virtua Fighter, the juggler intensive game like Tekken, or the crazy combo system of TvC or MvC 2 games (which also has broken characters and exploits but no one there complains, right?) and yet because Brawl is a different fighter, and changed even from Melee and SSB, you are the user unwilling to adapt and admit there's the chance that Brawl has that level of competition, so you write it off and live inside your little shell with the rest of you haughty naysayers.

And here is a link to character ranking/matchups in Brawl. Compare that to the character matchups in Melee, and see just how much of a gap there is between the bottom-tier vs. lower tier characters in Brawl, versus the bottom tier vs. lower tier characters in Melee.

Tiers didn't influence character mains in Melee or Smash 64 as much as they do now in Brawl. There are more Meta Knights and Snakes than there are Marths and Foxes from Melee. The competitive scene in Brawl is negligible. The big name Smashers from previous games aren't making return appearances in Brawl, and even if they are they still prefer Melee.princeofshapeir

Dude I hardly see MetaKnights! It's Ike that I see ALL THE TIME! and What? "Tiers didn't influence character mains in Melee???"

Man I'm sure a lot of people didn't choose most of the characters in Melee except for probably Marth and Mewtwo. But I'm pretty sure that Tiers were influenced in Melee.

and "The big name Smashers from previous games aren't making return appearances in Brawl, and even if they are they still prefer Melee." ???????????

Dude EVERYONE FROM THE ORIGINAL GAME is in Brawl!

Only Pichu (Pikachu Clone), Roy (replaced by Ike), Mewtwo (stupid move but replaced by Lucario), Dr. Mario (Mario Clone), and Young Link (Now Toon Link) are not in Brawl

And that's ALL!

and I just realized that you were talking about real people. What the heck? Who are these "Big Name Smashers???" I've never even heard of them!

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"] Tiers didn't influence character mains in Melee or Smash 64 as much as they do now in Brawl. There are more Meta Knights and Snakes than there are Marths and Foxes from Melee. The competitive scene in Brawl is negligible. The big name Smashers from previous games aren't making return appearances in Brawl, and even if they are they still prefer Melee.LegatoSkyheart

Dude I hardly see MetaKnights! It's Ike that I see ALL THE TIME! and What? "Tiers didn't influence character mains in Melee???"

Man I'm sure a lot of people didn't choose most of the characters in Melee except for probably Marth and Mewtwo. But I'm pretty sure that Tiers were influenced in Melee.

and "The big name Smashers from previous games aren't making return appearances in Brawl, and even if they are they still prefer Melee." ???????????

Dude EVERYONE FROM THE ORIGINAL GAME is in Brawl!

Only Pichu (Pikachu Clone), Roy (replaced by Ike), Mewtwo (stupid move but replaced by Lucario), Dr. Mario (Mario Clone), and Young Link (Now Toon Link) are not in Brawl

And that's ALL!

Essays are for School.

and Brawl can be Competitive.

You just don't like it that Nintendo fixed the Glitches in Melee.

[QUOTE="yoshi_64"]

[QUOTE="Sky-"]

My main issue is with the people who play in Brawl tournaments...the game has ridiculous balance problems and you don't stand a chance if you use some of the low tier characters like Link or Captain Falcoln.

princeofshapeir

Have you ever seen a good Falcon player win against a Snake or Meta Knight that is just as good, or perhaps even a little worse? Or in a video online?

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"] It's laughable to consider Marth and wavedashing/moonwalking broken, when compared to Meta Knight and Infinity Dimensional Cape. Again, I actually have played Brawl for a long time. I still consider it fun. Competitive meant for tournament play? No. It's clear that Sakurai intended for Brawl to be a different kind of game. Most of the people giving Brawl a competitive tournament scene are just the stalwart fans unwilling to accept the fact that it's not a game meant for hardcore play. And from the way you describe professional play in Melee, you're beginning to sound like the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.yoshi_64

For you though, you're complaining about the changes in the game, you don't willingly embrace them, thus... you decide to throw away any conception that the game has a competitive edge for anyone, that the game cannot be taken to a deeper level of play than exploiting and spamming. You said yourself it can be Competitive earlier, it may not be a technical heavy fighter like Virtua Fighter, the juggler intensive game like Tekken, or the crazy combo system of TvC or MvC 2 games (which also has broken characters and exploits but no one there complains, right?) and yet because Brawl is a different fighter, and changed even from Melee and SSB, you are the user unwilling to adapt and admit there's the chance that Brawl has that level of competition, so you write it off and live inside your little shell with the rest of you haughty naysayers.

...He's talking about professional gamers, not characters in the gamesWAIW

yeah I edited my post. But seriously. Who are these "Well Known Smashers???"

Look, there is a complete difference from wavedashing in Melee and infnity dimensional cape in Brawl. For one, even if you can't wavedash it's not that big of a deal, provided you know some of the basics like SHFFLing. But in Brawl, you have these cheap little character glitches like Meta Knight's IDC, which makes him invisible, unhittable, and unkillable indefinitely. I've seen that a LOT while playing online. Not to mention the stupidity of seeing Snake slide the length of Final Destination after a dash up-smash cancel, which is far more than the length of wavedashes in Melee. And several moves are just downright cheap and obnoxious: Snake's back-air has a hitbox that extends to his HEAD, despite him kicking out with his legs; Falco's chaingrab can result in an instakill from the beginning of a match, and it's nearly impossible to get out of. There is a fine difference between techniques that are employed to give a tactical advantage in Melee, than the ridiculous glitches and exploits that have been discovered for certain characters in Brawl. princeofshapeir

DUDE! Lay off Meta Knight! Not everyone uses him!

[QUOTE="VendettaRed07"]

Like look how awesome this looks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-kPc0EL9sU&feature=related

If you really look at this closely there is a ton of strategy going on, and its being played at like 1000 mph.

Then there is this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YYyxnYVe_4&feature=related

This is slow, and its just a bunch of slamming back and forth.. Totally lame in comparison

yoshi_64

agreed

[QUOTE="princeofshapeir"]

[QUOTE="yoshi_64"] You sound like the guy who'd love something like Dissidia: Final Fantasy. That game has more broken characters and item sets than any other fighter. It probably doesn't have tournament plays, but someone like I who plays competitively with friends loves the game still despite it's obviously broken setup system. You speak with numbers on the brain, you don't speak with the heart in the game. You don't willingly adapt, you just play by these mathematical situations and numbers.

yoshi_64

Have you ever seen a good Falcon player win against a Snake or Meta Knight that is just as good, or perhaps even a little worse? Or in a video online?

[QUOTE="WAIW"]...He's talking about professional gamers, not characters in the gamesLegatoSkyheart

yeah I edited my post. But seriously. Who are these "Well Known Smashers???"

You don't main any bottom tier characters. I main Captain Falcon and Ganondorf in Brawl. I consider myself to be pretty good, but when I go against Snakes and Meta Knights online princeofshapeir

I stopped right there because Online on Brawl SUCKS! Not only that but isn't Captain Falcon a Tier character???

brawl is competative, so your wrong. its just not AS competative as melee and 64.

sorry i didnt read thru the 3 pages.

Any game can be competitive if you allow it to be. I've had good competition in both Melee and Brawl.

And honestly, the only reason why many people seem to hate Brawl is because they no longer have that "wavedashing" glitch to exploit. God forbid Nintendo wants to change up their games a little, and want to fix glitches. :?

And also stages like the Pokemon Diamond/pearl stage in Brawl aren't unfair, the traps and obstacles in those affect ALL players who fall for them.

Any game can be competitive if you allow it to be. I've had good competition in both Melee and Brawl.

And honestly, the only reason why many people seem to hate Brawl is because they no longer have that "wavedashing" glitch to exploit. God forbid Nintendo wants to change up their games a little, and want to fix glitches. :?

DJ-Lafleur

There are far more things than wavedashing that make melee a far better competitive game than brawl.

It's obviously competitive if there is a professional scene for it. Wheather or not it is as competitive as the previous iterations or other fighting games like Tekken, Guilty Gear, Street Fighter, Blazblue, SoulCalibur, etc is another matter entirely.

I personally don't play it competitively (prefer GG/BB for competitive fighters), but that certainly doesn't mean it's not.

Brawl is a competitive game, however gets too much praise for what it is. it isnt very balanced and takes way less skill than other fighters such as street fighter 3 3rd strike, sf2, any of the capcom vs games, sf4, sf2t and maybe soul caliber. all those games are very well balanced compared to brawl and require ridiculous execution skills (especially 3rd strike and MvC2). the competitive brawl scene is miniscule compared to the sf scene which is enormous in japan (they always destroy the US, they spend over 5 hours a day play street fighter and America really does have good fighters like Justin Wong, however we can never stand up against Pongko or Daigo and even they get beat in there native countries in events like Gods Garden tournaments) and is fairly large in America. Brawl is not balanced at all and is furthered magnified that metaknight crushes everything and is even banned in some circles. in sf any character can win. every character has a glaring advantage and a glaring disadvantage (ryu the master of nothing, but good overall. Sagat, the king of turtle, but gets **** up if you get inside, dhalsim, the king of runaway, same disadvantage as sagat). brawl has this but to a lesser extent and the fact that the map effects the match is a misbalance and takes away for the need of player skill and knowledge.

Inbalanced characters? They were extremely balanced actually, better than the godly Seth from Street Fighter 4. :roll: Because that game was SOOO balanced. It also does reward "skill", just because the controls aren't crippled and don't require ridiculous analog movements and button combinations to pull off moves doesn't mean there's no skill involved. It's competetive, you fight people, therefore, competetive fighting game.enterawesome

Maybe you should learn about a game before calling it balanced. Seth is in no way "cheap", infact there hasn't been a seth player that has won any major tournaments. Also, Metaknight and Snake>everyone else in brawl.

Inbalanced characters? They were extremely balanced actually, better than the godly Seth from Street Fighter 4. :roll: Because that game was SOOO balanced. It also does reward "skill", just because the controls aren't crippled and don't require ridiculous analog movements and button combinations to pull off moves doesn't mean there's no skill involved. It's competetive, you fight people, therefore, competetive fighting game.enterawesome

When Seth is controlled by a human player, he has the lowest defense and weakest ultra in the entire game. In Brawl, you are always fighting an uphill battle if you choose a lower tier character, no matter how much you adapt. Unlike Brawl, every character in SFIV has a legitimate chance to win the match.

Inbalanced characters? They were extremely balanced actually, better than the godly Seth from Street Fighter 4. :roll: Because that game was SOOO balanced. It also does reward "skill", just because the controls aren't crippled and don't require ridiculous analog movements and button combinations to pull off moves doesn't mean there's no skill involved. It's competetive, you fight people, therefore, competetive fighting game.enterawesome

Inbalanced characters? They were extremely balanced actually, better than the godly Seth from Street Fighter 4. :roll: Because that game was SOOO balanced. It also does reward "skill", just because the controls aren't crippled and don't require ridiculous analog movements and button combinations to pull off moves doesn't mean there's no skill involved. It's competetive, you fight people, therefore, competetive fighting game.enterawesome

edit: also the motions arent hard, they are meant for an arcade stick. also the motions help add to the complexity of a game and help avoid spam. omg i just did down b a bunch of times and won omgomgomg. you can never get away with that in an sf, capcom vs game, KoF game or soul caliber game. also any game with infinites that are EASY to pull off are imbalanced. yes there are infinites in MvC2, but most are ridiculously hard to setup and then keep up.

[QUOTE="enterawesome"]Inbalanced characters? They were extremely balanced actually, better than the godly Seth from Street Fighter 4. :roll: Because that game was SOOO balanced. It also does reward "skill", just because the controls aren't crippled and don't require ridiculous analog movements and button combinations to pull off moves doesn't mean there's no skill involved. It's competetive, you fight people, therefore, competetive fighting game.Sky-

When Seth is controlled by a human player, he has the lowest defense and weakest ultra in the entire game. In Brawl, you are always fighting an uphill battle if you choose a lower tier character, no matter how much you adapt. Unlike Brawl, every character in SFIV has a legitimate chance to win the match.

[QUOTE="enterawesome"]Inbalanced characters? They were extremely balanced actually, better than the godly Seth from Street Fighter 4. :roll: Because that game was SOOO balanced. It also does reward "skill", just because the controls aren't crippled and don't require ridiculous analog movements and button combinations to pull off moves doesn't mean there's no skill involved. It's competetive, you fight people, therefore, competetive fighting game.Sky-

When Seth is controlled by a human player, he has the lowest defense and weakest ultra in the entire game. In Brawl, you are always fighting an uphill battle if you choose a lower tier character, no matter how much you adapt. Unlike Brawl, every character in SFIV has a legitimate chance to win the match.

Someone obviously has had a rough time with this game...

Wrong, I have discovered my lower tier Yoshi has no problems battling a higher tier character. Guess I'm just too good for the game... yoshi_64

Don't praise yourself too much.

I'm not a fighting expert, so I let one talk:

It's a real fighting game. I didn't always think that, but I changed my mind after spending more time playing both Melee and Brawl.

We actually had Brawl on the main stage in 2008 (with items on!) and I thought it was one of the best tourneys that year [referring to the EVO event], with some spectacular finishes and outstanding play. Most of the competitive Smash community prefers to play with items off, which is their call to make, but we try to play a kind of "no holds barred" styIe at EVO, until something is proven to be undeniably messed up. I can't imagine how crummy Marvel Vs Capcom 2 would be today if we had started banning things the first time we thought something was "overpowered" or "too random."

Capcoms Seth Killian

[QUOTE="yoshi_64"]Wrong, I have discovered my lower tier Yoshi has no problems battling a higher tier character. Guess I'm just too good for the game... Sky-

Don't praise yourself too much.

[QUOTE="yoshi_64"]Wrong, I have discovered my lower tier Yoshi has no problems battling a higher tier character. Guess I'm just too good for the game... Sky-

Don't praise yourself too much.

[QUOTE="Sky-"]

[QUOTE="yoshi_64"]Wrong, I have discovered my lower tier Yoshi has no problems battling a higher tier character. Guess I'm just too good for the game... yoshi_64

Don't praise yourself too much.

You just can't take personal experience and apply it to data collected by an entire community.

Don't play your numbers and blame them when they don't favor you. yoshi_64

*sigh*

I can tell that this is going nowhere really fast and I do not feel like discussing this with you anymore, so I'm going to take my leave now. Enjoy your game and have a good day.

[QUOTE="Sky-"]

[QUOTE="yoshi_64"]Wrong, I have discovered my lower tier Yoshi has no problems battling a higher tier character. Guess I'm just too good for the game... sSubZerOo

Don't praise yourself too much.

i dont c why people say this brawl is a real deep fighter if u noe the advanced mechanics

[QUOTE="LegatoSkyheart"]

How can it be a crap competition?

A Competition is a Competition! The Goal is to WIN!

Sky-

Winning in Brawl leans heavily on what stage you use and what characters you use...the player's skill level isn't anywhere near as big of a factor in Brawl as it is in other fighters.

You know, TC, you had a respectable (yet still very disagreeable) debate going... until right about here...

You don't main any bottom tier characters. I main Captain Falcon and Ganondorf in Brawl. I consider myself to be pretty good, but when I go against Snakes and Meta Knights online that are just as good as me or perhaps worse, I get flattened. Why? Because of cheap moves and character imbalance that prevents me from playing a character I want to play. princeofshapeir

^The following makes you sound like someone who's upset because he can't win with certain characters, and the fact that you mention Brawl's online, as difficult as it can be to play fluidly to begin with, really makes you lose credibility over the arguement of whether or not Brawl is a "competitive fighting game" or not, seeing as how anyone can lost a match with anyone if lag becomes a significant factor in things, which is very possible.

As far as the general arguement goes in regards to Brawl, I would respectfully disagree with you in regards to balance and overall playability. From top-to-bottom, I think Brawl is a more balanced game than Melee, despite having a good 10 more characters to work with this time around. For starters, there are certainly no Pichu-type characters in Brawl where a player is litterally handicapping himself/herself in order to play with the character. In regards to the mechanics of the game, sure, you can say Brawl is more simplified in ways, but that in itself doesn't make it a worse game. The fact that you admit many of Melee's popular "techniques" were glitches/exploits suggest that even if they took practice to execute properly, there was something about the way they were presented that doesn't make them normal. Surely, this is something the development team thought about when creating Brawl, and the game has dealt away with these exploits without creating many more to replace them, guess what? It's an improvement, and those who used them in the past will just have to deal.

"Skill" is something that comes in many different forms, and in the end, there is no one singular way or method of determining who has greater skill. The core purpose of Super Smash Bros has been the same since the start: eliminate your opponent(s) by means of increasing damage and knocking them off the stage. However you decide to reach that conclusion, it's a test of skill. I'm not one who buys the idea that the game had to be built a certain way to accomodate for showing off one's wares or that the game has to be played a certain way for the best players to stand out (ex. Final Destination/No items Only). For me, that's a cop-out for those who only want to play a certain way. A C-Stick Smasher who knows when to use Smash Attacks better than the player who does it traditionally is a better Smasher. Period. A player who can also attack with/defend against items or know how to navigate a stage is also a more skilled player in those respective fields. Seeing as how these elements weren't removed from Brawl, they are fair game, and those who know how to adapt are those who are truly skilled.

You can't take credit away from Brawl and its competitiveness when it does the same thing that its predecessors do from a core gameplay perspective, and in some ways, even better. If you want to say that it's not the original SSB or Melee and it bothers you, that's fine, but that's as far as you can go. It would be one thing if the previous two games were perfect, but if that was the case, chances are things wouldn't have been tweaked and rehauled for this game, now would it? The fact is that all three games have their share of flaws and differences outside of the most basic of functions, and regardless of if you agree with them or not, it's something you'll have to adjust to until the next game comes, which will also have its share of changes and potential hickups as well, I'm sure.

I read your novella of a post, TC, and I learned is that you're really upset that there aren't as many things to exploit as there were in previous SSB games. Might I recommend that you stop complaining and accept the game given to you from Nintendo?

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Sky-"]

Don't praise yourself too much.

SSBB delivered a well-deserved kick in the pants to the "pro" fighters.

Brawl's competitiveness pales in comparison to its predecessor but as anti-Brawl as I am, I must say its competitive scene is not as terrible as some make it out to be. Sure Meta Knight is still a widespread problem but the metagame advanced since last year and Meta Knight could be contained more effectively now. The most recent large scale Brawl tournament was won by a Diddy Kong player. One could argue that Brawl's top tier is on a completely different level than other fighting games top tiers but hey, low tiers rarely win tournaments anyways. Not to hate on Melee, but I never recalled a time where a bottom tier character won a widespead tournament. Ally(Best Snake player in the world)'s Meta Knight lost to a Bowser during Pound 4 anyways, so the tier list for Brawl still is not the de facto end of all arguments. Brawl sure does have its fair share of problems though, with top level players abusing the time limits and camping the other player out, but Brawl is entitled to its status of competitiveness, and its healthy tournament scene only reflects that.

Brawl's competitiveness pales in comparison to its predecessor but as anti-Brawl as I am, I must say its competitive scene is not as terrible as some make it out to be. Sure Meta Knight is still a widespread problem but the metagame advanced since last year and Meta Knight could be contained more effectively now. The most recent large scale Brawl tournament was won by a Diddy Kong player. One could argue that Brawl's top tier is on a completely different level than other fighting games top tiers but hey, low tiers rarely win tournaments anyways. Not to hate on Melee, but I never recalled a time where a bottom tier character won a widespead tournament. Ally(Best Snake player in the world)'s Meta Knight lost to a Bowser during Pound 4 anyways, so the tier list for Brawl still is not the de facto end of all arguments. Brawl sure does have its fair share of problems though, with top level players abusing the time limits and camping the other player out, but Brawl is entitled to its status of competitiveness, and its healthy tournament scene only reflects that.

commonercoffee

Honestly, I've played quite a bit online myself, and I've come up against players that really irritated me to death because I simply couldn't beat them. I love to use Pikachu. One player prefered another character, and I got trashed. Several matches in, I finally got him, and it felt good. So no one should ever say it can't be a competitive game.

yeah it is compeditive. Try saying its not to my friends

SSBB delivered a well-deserved kick in the pants to the "pro" fighters.

789shadow

Who? What? Where? How? Why? When?

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

SSBB delivered a well-deserved kick in the pants to the "pro" fighters.

Sky-

Who? What? Where? How? Why? When?

Unfortunately, they just all went online and made every match occur on Final Destination.