Thanks -Official Guide to the Post-Jeff System Wars (Mod Approved)

[QUOTE="rimnet00"]We are still basing a lot of this off assumption. subrosian

Right that's what we're dealing with though. Many people on System Wars are going to perceive a CNET conspiracy whether or not there is one. It's certainly relevant (to me at least) if this was really the case, but there's no denying that CNET's advertiser relations are going to be a sticky subject for many people. You need only look at the number of angry reactions to realize that this is something we're really going to have to work through calmly.

This reminds of the Muhammad cartoons, strangly.

[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

No matter what the other side's story is, SW can't just go back to normal. It may be jumping the gun, or it may be the last straw and the gateway to a big change here.

kcpp2b

Jeff Gerstmann was just fired last night - I'm sure he went home, got some sleep, and probably just woke up to eat some cereal - the staff just got to work to find an out of control site, Eidos being carpet-bombed, and half their mods going nuts.

Jeff was online here till about 4:30am or so last night reading the stuff about him OT I bet lol

Jeff's userpage shows him as being "online" as of around 12:36pm EST today, but that doesn't mean anything, GS shows me being online all the time when I fall asleep with my computer on :P. I'm not one to speculate, but I doubt Jeff's sitting around reading about himself in the off-topic thread. It would be somewhat pointless, since most likely he knows the whole story.

http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/11/gamespot-inside.html

Well, some more backstory.

Jandurin

If this Eidos rumour is true, then that's very disturbing. Also CNET shouldn't have caved, even an xbox fanboy like Jeff deserves better. Seriously, I hated him for the Zelda:TP review, and his anti-nintendo bias in all his reviews...but still, he should get relegated to doing previews for mobile games, not get fired.

If you're worried about Gamespot's bias, then go to IGN (although I assume they have similar problems).

I must say, this has shaken my faith in GS. Unless Jeff comes out and denies it, I'm not sure it will recover, and if it is confirmed, I'm cancelling my subscription here.

It doesn't matter how you turn over a cow patty, both ssides smell horrible. Whether he was fired for score, review content, unprofessional demeanor, it all holds the same end reprecussions. A reviewer was fired for giving his unadulterated opinions on games and for what he did best.Vandalvideo

I don't agree Vandal.

The degree to which we raise and eyebrow depends heavily on whether it was tone and professionalism or actual review scores. If Jeff was really fired for giving a game a 6.0 though, why does that score still stand on the site? For that matter, after all of these years, why would CNET fire someone over one game? It's not the first controversial review Jeff has done, nor the first advertised game that scored poorly on the site.

I still say we need all the facts, if Jeff was terminated due to what CNET perceives to be an issue of professionalism or attitude (and keep in mind - we don't see Jeff at work, so we don't know the situation) then it may just be poor timing on their part that Eidos was upset about the review score. I do believe professionalism on the job is something legitimate to ask of a reviwer, because they are in a situation of being the face of a company.

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

[QUOTE="rimnet00"]We are still basing a lot of this off assumption. rimnet00

Right that's what we're dealing with though. Many people on System Wars are going to perceive a CNET conspiracy whether or not there is one. It's certainly relevant (to me at least) if this was really the case, but there's no denying that CNET's advertiser relations are going to be a sticky subject for many people. You need only look at the number of angry reactions to realize that this is something we're really going to have to work through calmly.

This reminds of the Muhammad cartoons, strangly.

I somewhat understand the parallel - a seemingly harmless action provokes a huge (unexpected) response. This is certainly the situation we have here - even if nothing was done wrong on CNET's part, they are going to get a backlash because of a cartoon.

I don't agree Vandal.The degree to which we raise and eyebrow depends heavily on whether it was tone and professionalism or actual review scores. If Jeff was really fired for giving a game a 6.0 though, why does that score still stand on the site? For that matter, after all of these years, why would CNET fire someone over one game? It's not the first controversial review Jeff has done, nor the first advertised game that scored poorly on the site.I still say we need all the facts, if Jeff was terminated due to what CNET perceives to be an issue of professionalism or attitude (and keep in mind - we don't see Jeff at work, so we don't know the situation) then it may just be poor timing on their part that Eidos was upset about the review score. I do believe professionalism on the job is something legitimate to ask of a reviwer, because they are in a situation of being the face of a company.subrosian

[QUOTE="blue_hazy_basic"][QUOTE="subrosian"]

Well it's not the review score itself that Eidos and CNET would be most concerned about, but the content ofhis review. In his video review, Jeff told potential buyers not to buy the game, and in his review suggested gamers pick it up when it was bargain-binned. This is something I agree with by the way - Kane & Lynch doesn't compare favorably to other full-priced FPS and TPS titles on the 360 / PC. That video review has already been pulled.

So yes his "tone" and "attitude" are the primary concerns... however it is still an unknown to what extent the K&L controversy played into his termination. However it doesn't necessarily matter, because credibilility is a perception. If people feel it in any way influenced CNET's decision (as an ad-revenue driven site) - if mods, admins, and staff members are leaving over what they perceive to be an integrity issue, then unfortunately anything relying heavily on GS-reviews (System Wars) is going to find itself in an odd place.

However, what we have not confirmed yet is that review scores have been bought. We know credibility is shaken, but Kane & Lynch still stands at a 6.0. I'm hoping in the next few days Penny-Arcade or Jeff Gerstmann himself can give us an insider look into whether or not that has happened at GS over the past twelve months.

Vandalvideo

[QUOTE="Jandurin"]

http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/11/gamespot-inside.html

Well, some more backstory.

blue_hazy_basic

GameSpot Insider Claims Editor Was Fired for 'Larger Reasons'

One of the team members who worked on the Kane & Lynch ads for GameSpot says that the timing of editor Jeff Gerstmann's departure is a case of coincidence, not cause and effect.

The Internet was rife with rumors yesterday that Gerstmann had been let go after giving Kane & Lynch a low review score, which angered GameSpot advertiser Eidos. According to this post, supposedly written by one of the ad team, Eidos was indeed ticked off, but decided against pulling the spots, opting instead to have the ads retooled to point readers to the game's official site instead of its review page:The ads went up and the Eidos brouhaha was settled over two weeks ago. Jeff got fired yesterday. Furthermore, I'd heard a few people tell that he'd already been skating on thin ice for "unprofessional reviews and review practices." I don't know much about that, though, so I can't say one way or the other. My gut tells me that he got canned for larger reasons. Maybe the Eidos debacle was part of it -- I don't know. But I sincerely doubt that Eidos made Gamespot fire him. CNET doesn't kowtow to its advertisers, and I've more than once seen the higher-ups turn away big advertising dollars for the sake of the company's integrity.I think the whole thing is likely a combination of factors, the biggest being poor timing.

I like this story, it's addressing that this may not (and cannot possibly be) as cut-and-dry as we think. We just need to give it time, I think a lot of information will come out for real next week.

When you represent any company there is a level of preofessionalism you must maintain. We don't know what happenned with Jeff yet but its clear there has been some underlying tension there between him and his employers for a while. He has given plenty of harsh controversial reviews in the past and I much prefer them to reviews which go easy. However, without the gaming companies gamespot would die. Criticse a game sure, but theres boundaries in how you should do it.blue_hazy_basic

[QUOTE="subrosian"]I don't agree Vandal.The degree to which we raise and eyebrow depends heavily on whether it was tone and professionalism or actual review scores. If Jeff was really fired for giving a game a 6.0 though, why does that score still stand on the site? For that matter, after all of these years, why would CNET fire someone over one game? It's not the first controversial review Jeff has done, nor the first advertised game that scored poorly on the site.I still say we need all the facts, if Jeff was terminated due to what CNET perceives to be an issue of professionalism or attitude (and keep in mind - we don't see Jeff at work, so we don't know the situation) then it may just be poor timing on their part that Eidos was upset about the review score. I do believe professionalism on the job is something legitimate to ask of a reviwer, because they are in a situation of being the face of a company.Vandalvideo

Let me point out, had Jeff been fired at any other point - after any other review (GS is always doing reviews) wouldn't the same controversy be possible? How do you fire someone who occasionally does controversial reviews withoutpeople saying "was it because he gave ________- game a good score?".

He has been with GameSpot a long time, but editor-in-chief is a rather significant position, and until we know all the facts, I say we wait. There are plenty of others reasons he could have been terminated. For example - a fight with his bosses (at CNET) or troubles with coworkers. "Professionalism" can be related to on-the-job attitude too, so we just don't know all the facts.

It could simply be really poor timing - I agree there's usually a *reason* someone gets fired, but I don't agree that the only possible explanation is some giant conspiracy. If that partially influenced the situation, then I'm concerned (as anyone should be) but I just don't think that's what happened. As far as System Wars is concerned, I stick by saying we need to give CNET a week to respond.

[QUOTE="blue_hazy_basic"] When you represent any company there is a level of preofessionalism you must maintain. We don't know what happenned with Jeff yet but its clear there has been some underlying tension there between him and his employers for a while. He has given plenty of harsh controversial reviews in the past and I much prefer them to reviews which go easy. However, without the gaming companies gamespot would die. Criticse a game sure, but theres boundaries in how you should do it.Vandalvideo

i agree to an extent, but its like anything in business there is an unwritten line and its not always clear when you cross it. Jeff has obviously been close a few times and maybe this one was too many? Its impossible to speculate at this point whether CNET decided enough was enough or whether Jeff was pushed by pressure from advertisers. Either way I'm sad he's gone.

Here is the K&L video reveiw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBehsNAUZSE. I didn't watch it all but did he really outright say "Don't buy this game?"

Theres plenty of reason to assume that something shady is going on because there are some GSpot staff acting "out of character" I guess you could say. Tim is leaving(http://www.gamespot.com/users/TimT) and AdamB is holding some sort of "Jeff fundraiser" getting everyone with a paid subscription to cancel(http://www.gamespot.com/users/Adam_B/). They're well into the thousands, thats some epic s*** right there.

Pro_wrestler

"Professionalism" can be related to on-the-job attitude too, so we just don't know all the facts.

subrosian

I doubt it was because of his attitude, I only say that because of the amount of staff that are suprised at his firing. Theres even a guy quiting because of it.

[QUOTE="Bread_or_Decide"]

Wait a minute....is this why Assassins Creed scored so high here and low everywhere else?

Damn now you can't trust a single review after this whole thing.

the_h_bomb

It seriously brings the integrity of this entire site into question. I'm no Sony fan but the protests from cows about the low ratings for PS3 games have some weight to them after this debacle

This is an instance where cow, lemming, and sheep titles need to be dropped off at the door, and forgotten about. The fact is, we are ALL gamers. Yes, your statement is correct, but only to a degree. PS3, Wii, and 360 gamers can name games that the scores were "off" from what they seem to be everywhere else. Yes, we all jab at each other all the time, but this affects every one of us. It brings to question if you can trust any review on a game on any system, and we need to figure where we want to go from here with "life as usual" at SW.

Lmao, I wasn't expecting this.crazyjames1080

You and me both, I logged in last night to find System Wars and Off-Topic had gone to 'h' 'e' double 'l' over a Penny-Arcade comic... but cooler heads will prevail.

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

"Professionalism" can be related to on-the-job attitude too, so we just don't know all the facts.

Pro_wrestler

I doubt it was because of his attitude, I only say that because of the amount of staff that are suprised at his firing. Theres even a guy quiting because of it.

I have not yet been informed of exactly how much or how little staff members, admins, and even Jeff himself are fully aware of the situation. You know me - the moment there's some truth on this subject (other than what has been confirmed - Jeff is fired, his attitude / professionalism may have been partially involved, and the video reviews has been pulled) I'm going to have something to say on it. But I want to say my piece knowing all the facts.

I'm sure a lot of staff are surprised partially because they don't report to Jeff and Jeff doesn't report to them. CNET's the big boss, and Jeff was in a rather high-up position. When your Editor-in-Chief is fired, it's a pretty big shocking event, and there are certainly going to be people who were his friends and coworkers who are upset.

That's not a confirmation as to why he was fired though - I agree, it's probably *not* just one thing. However, if it's something bigger going on at CNET - say a typical fight between a group of employees and their employer, then they may feel the need to leave with Jeff.

-

I'm just saying, we need facts, and all we really have is speculation and conjecture.

Every single day I worked at GameSpot, Greg, Jeff, and the others were constantly vigilant to make sure that the editorial department was insulated from other units of the business that might have resulted in conflicts of interest. The most important thing a review site like GameSpot has is its credibility. People might disagree with a review, but at least they knew the review came from a gamer who was giving an honest opinion. And the management has blown it. You're losing money from all those who cancel, but more importantly, you're losing the credibility you had.

That breaks my heart, as I know the editors deserve better. And I really hope they get better.AdamB

[QUOTE="Pro_wrestler"][QUOTE="subrosian"]

"Professionalism" can be related to on-the-job attitude too, so we just don't know all the facts.

subrosian

I doubt it was because of his attitude, I only say that because of the amount of staff that are suprised at his firing. Theres even a guy quiting because of it.

I have not yet been informed of exactly how much or how little staff members, admins, and even Jeff himself are fully aware of the situation. You know me - the moment there's some truth on this subject (other than what has been confirmed - Jeff is fired, his attitude / professionalism may have been partially involved, and the video reviews has been pulled) I'm going to have something to say on it. But I want to say my piece knowing all the facts.

I'm sure a lot of staff are surprised partially because they don't report to Jeff and Jeff doesn't report to them. CNET's the big boss, and Jeff was in a rather high-up position. When your Editor-in-Chief is fired, it's a pretty big shocking event, and there are certainly going to be people who were his friends and coworkers who are upset.

That's not a confirmation as to why he was fired though - I agree, it's probably *not* just one thing. However, if it's something bigger going on at CNET - say a typical fight between a group of employees and their employer, then they may feel the need to leave with Jeff.

-

I'm just saying, we need facts, and all we really have is speculation and conjecture.

I understand, after reading Adam_B's blog post I definitely think it was a class of interest like he mention on his profile. Will withhold further judgement though.

[QUOTE="crazyjames1080"]Lmao, I wasn't expecting this.subrosian

You and me both, I logged in last night to find System Wars and Off-Topic had gone to 'h' 'e' double 'l' over a Penny-Arcade comic... but cooler heads will prevail.

Haha, I have to give props to you and this thread. I found it very interesting to read.

Gamespot is basically in pandemonium right now.I wonder how stable the community is going to be the coming weeks...

Gamespot is basically in pandemonium right now.I wonder how stable the community is going to be the coming weeks...

VGobbsesser

That's very much going to be up to us. I say cooler heads will prevail, and when they do we'll be able to get all the facts of the situation, sit back, and reflect upon it. I imagine there's inevitably going to some turmoil (regardless of the K&L controversy) because Jeff was such a prominent figure on GS - but if we approach this with maturity, I think it'll go fine.

Nothing about this sits right with me.

I'm also 100% against switching to gamerankings or any other review site. All of which have ads and I'm sure are just as tainted, if not more, then Gamespot.

Just confirms what I've known for a long time, game review sites and magazines are whores for hire.

I leave for one day and GS becomes a total mess. WTF.web966

I know, right? I saw the beginnings of this and was like. Screw this, I'm going to bed.

I probably would've been up all night "investigating" otherwise.

Gamespot takes its editorial integrity extremely seriously. For over a decade, Gamespot and the many members of its editorial team have produced thousands of unbiased reviews that have been a valuable resource for the gaming community. At CNET Networks, we stand behind the editorial content that our teams produce on a daily basis.CNET

An expected response, however I think they're going to have to be less formal and more blunt on what's going on (as in outright denying and giving us a little more heart-to-heart information) before anyone with System Wars will be fully satisfied.

-

This comment was a cookie-cutter response to Joystiq, not to us, by the way, I believe the response to the GS community will be more forthcoming.

I'm leaving for a week in a few days anyway, so it'll be interesting to come back and find out what SW has decided. I kind of want to be here in SW's time of need, but on the other hand, I really don't.

I understand maturity and all but if this is true, and this site is susceptible to any type of publisher pressures in regard to its content, why should they be rewarded with and active community and page hits in the first place? That just reinforces the threat to any remaining reviewers and content editors?

I guess we won't really know unless other staff members follow him out or until the man himself speaks.

I understand maturity and all but if this is true, and this site is susceptible to publisher pressures in regard to its content, why should they be rewarded with and active community and page hits in the first place? That just reinforces the threat to any remaining reviewers and content editors?tonemd_basic

I have a lot of doubts about the validity of saying GameSpot is buckling to advertiser pressure precisely because it would harm theor credibility, which they need in order to get the viewers who make their advertising space worth money in the first place. That said, no matter what, the accusations that have sprung up with a long-time staff member losing his position are going to hamper GameSpot's credibility regardless of whether they are true.

There are multiple sides to every story, CNET's not a monolothic evil corporation, Jeff Gerstmann isn't gaming's new martyr - the truth lies somewhere inbetween and until we know all the facts assumptions lead us down a dirty road. I said "the time to panic is now" because confirmation that Jeff was fired, and partial-confirmation that his professionalism was at question (along with the video reviews being pulled) are going to paint a conspiracy picture for many people.

I've steered people towards Off-Topic to vent on the issues, System Wars primary concern is going to be for the validity of the review scores - I haven't seen evidence that scores were, at any point, bought. Even Jeff's 6.0 score for Kane & Lynch stands post-termination. What I am concerned about is why his video review was pulled, and there's certainly a lot of information that will come out over the next few weeks.

-

I can guarantee you my integrity on this issue - the moment I have all the facts, I'll personally have a great deal to say on the issue, but until then... I'm willing to be patient. This isn't something that's going to be resolved in the short run, we need not fear "missing our chance" to speak out on the issue simply because we're willing to wait a few days to hear all sides of the story.

Heh, well this is a pretty corrupting state of affairs, if all true. Rather disappointing, all in all. The lifeblood of System Wars are review scores, and with those thrown into question on any website with advertising, it's going to be interesting to see what recourse there will be on this board. Well done on trying to make a postive contribution though Subrosian.

One thing I like is the huge outcry generated by this news. You only have to look at Jeff's last blog entry or Kane & Lynch's user reviews to see how much the Gamespot community has reacted to this, and the extent of the repercussions.

Should be an interesting few weeks on System Wars.

This is an instance where cow, lemming, and sheep titles need to be dropped off at the door, and forgotten about. The fact is, we are ALL gamers. Yes, your statement is correct, but only to a degree. PS3, Wii, and 360 gamers can name games that the scores were "off" from what they seem to be everywhere else. Yes, we all jab at each other all the time, but this affects every one of us. It brings to question if you can trust any review on a game on any system, and we need to figure where we want to go from here with "life as usual" at SW.

JediRiff

True, this is an issue that effects all of us. If we cant trust critics to be 100% honest with us then what purpose do they serve? I dont want my reviews "sanitised" to placate publishers. Hell eidos aren't even that big, i hate to think what CNET's response is to the likes of EA or Ubi.

Over the three years ive been on these forums (ive had multiple accounts here, no im not telling you my original identity) ive always been a person who laughed at the people who tried to damage control when factions game of hype flopped and they tried to use a review from another site. I have ALWAYS stuck behind GameSpot reviews because they told it like it was when other editors would sugarcoat just for the sake of pleasing the companies and fans of the game.

That's all changed. GameSpot is no longera credible website for reviews. This is PaySpot, no other way to cut it. System Wars is absolutely pointless unless anew review site of choice is not affiliated with Cnet. That means no GameRankings.

I would also like to bring something else out in the light. Ive also noticed that if a publisher dosent send GameSpot complimentary copies of said game (which is what happens often with lesser known games from smaller companies), an actual editor will have to go out and buy the game with their money, and while its not expressed, they get pissed over it. Especially if they think they didnt get every cent of their money, theyre going to slam the game hard.

All the fuss seems to be about the "tone" of the review rather than scores. cakeorrdeath

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]All the fuss seems to be about the "tone" of the review rather than scores. Dreams-Visions

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]All the fuss seems to be about the "tone" of the review rather than scores. Dreams-Visions

Well...when you categorically tell someone to NOT buy a game...it's kinda no longer...journalism. :?
Dreams-Visions

He said dont buy it at full price. His job is to advise us as consumers and telling us whether a game is worth it falls under that remit

I found NOTHING wrong with that review. It was clear, concise and he had obviously played the game extensively.

It isn't any different then any other game that has been reviewed by gamespot that received low scores. Blue Dragon comes to mind, which was a totally different reviewer.

How come Kevin V wasn't fired?

It isn't any different then any other game that has been reviewed by gamespot that received low scores. Blue Dragon comes to mind, which was a totally different reviewer.

How come Kevin V wasn't fired?

BreakingPoint8

so what happened? Jeff got fired, because the publisher for K&L, which Jeff reviewed negatively, threatened to pull the advertisements of their game from the site. So GS fired Jeff? Is that what happened. I just recently heard about this, and I don't know what's true or not.Mordred19

That's the story so far, yes. If it's true, I'm done with Gamespot reviews. I'll still post in the forums, but this site's credibility has taken a nosedive.

so what happened? Jeff got fired, because the publisher for K&L, which Jeff reviewed negatively, threatened to pull the advertisements of their game from the site. So GS fired Jeff? Is that what happened. I just recently heard about this, and I don't know what's true or not.Mordred19

That is the rumor that started circulating around last night. A lot more has come out since then, and at this point it honestly looks like this is far more complex and deep than that. Right now we're simply being patient until we know all the facts, as while we know Jeff was fired, we have no confirmation that Eidos or CNET were involved in buying review scores at any point.

so what happened? Jeff got fired, because the publisher for K&L, which Jeff reviewed negatively, threatened to pull the advertisements of their game from the site. So GS fired Jeff? Is that what happened. I just recently heard about this, and I don't know what's true or not.Mordred19

Different stories and rumours, who knows.

Itseems to be about jeff's tone in the review but that the review was only part of a much deeper issue (s). We just don't know right now.