The 720p vs.640p UPDATE!

Well it seems the Technical Wizards over at Beyond 3D have been hard at work and have now reached their Final Conclusion in the Matter.

*** Now before I begin, I'm just going to point this out. I'm about to link you to *Gasp* another Forum as proof of these findings. I realize that unless I say this there will be more than a few posts along the lines of "Pshh, that's just a link to another forum. That's Not Proof/credible." However it IS proof. Remember when it was Discovered that Halo 3 was 640p and then later COD 4 was 600p ect. These finding eventually get posted on Gaming sites as News. But the Technical wizards over at the Beyond3D forums are where this kind of news COMES FROM. These ARE "the Pixel counting Geeks" ( I absolutely do NOT meanthat in any derogitory way) you've heard about. These are the guys who rip frames directly out of your consoles framebuffers. And while there are quite a few who do this, one name stand out as THE source for this area of expertise - Quaz51 ( remember it ) ***

Quaz51 wrote:

"Good news, dot50cal send me very good screenshot (thanks) and finally it's 1152x640p (and no AA) exactly like Halo3,
perfect Dark or Dark sector PS3 even though i has clearly identified 7/8 recurrence on many different edge and screenshot
but insufficient edge lenght and bad screenshot lead astray me, sorry, it's finally 8/9 and 9/10 recurrence, it's the
final result!" - Post # 624

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46242&page=25

Quaz51 wrote:

"360 version is clearly 720p AAx2" - Post # 631

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46242&page=26

Quaz51 wrote:

"Here are screenshots. These are taken directly from the frame buffer before any scaling is applied.
This game is 100% 720p on the Xbox 360." - Post # 633

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46242&page=26

AND

Link to the Screenshots mentioned above

http://imk.cx/screenshots/xbox360/Grand%20Theft%20Auto%20IV/

The "softness" ( or more accurately "blurriness" ) of the PS3 version is apparantly due to a "blur buffer" ( Beyond3D
Terminology, I didn't make that up ) and the fact it's being upscalled from 640p to 720p blurs the image a bit aswell.

So in Conclusion

The PS3 version of GTA IV is....

640p ( 1152 x 640 ) with no AA

The 360 version ofGTA IV is....

720p ( 1280 x 720 ) with 2X AA

These guys have waaay too much time on their hands,but this is some pretty big ownage for cows if its true :(

But I'd doubt anyone could actually tell the difference between the two anyway,still it looks like devs are still having trouble with the PS3.

Kotaku.com just posted an article explaining whether the resolution means the Xbox 360 is definitively better looking:

GTA IV Runs At 630P on PlayStation 3, So What's That Mean?

Early test reports are finding that Grand Theft Auto IV is only running at 630P on the PlayStation 3—falling short of hi def—while the game runs at 720P on the Xbox 360. Clearly, the PlayStation version must look worse, right? It's not that simple. But the basic explanation is easy enough to understand.

You know 720P (along with 1080P) as "high definition" content. What 720P really means is that 720 lines of resolution are displayed on your television in "progressive" format—meaning all at once.

So if GTA IV is running at only 630P on the PS3, that does mean PS3 gamers are seeing 90 less lines of resolution—or quite a bit from a relative standpoint. And it's fast-approaching the Wii's standard def, 480p output.

The bottom line is that resolution does matter, but the more lines of resolution you add will depreciate in value. There's an interesting stat that always sticks in my head: From only about 10 feet away, most people cannot tell a 720p image from a 1080p image on a 42" television.

I'm not sure how well I could differentiate a 630P signal from a 720P signal from 10 feet away. But I'm sure that, given large enough televisions and sharp enough eyes, some of us could. Especially in a game context.

But what we'd be overlooking is that eyes-on reports show that Rockstar has taken the processing power formerly spent on resolution and added it to filters (and maybe even lighting). If GTA IV feels warmer or softer on PS3, that's probably why. And that's where taste triumphs numbers.

(If you're having a tough time wrapping your head around the filter concept, mess with the settings in Mass Effect.)

At the end of the day, both versions look good. But the PS3 used methods other than raw resolution to get there. Of course sharpness and detail is an important—that will be the biggest bonus of 720P. But in an era when we're past merely counting polygons on the screen to measure graphical quality, we shouldn't blow small numbers out of proportion. In short, it's not just the size of your P, but how you use it that matters.

And to see what we thought of the versions side-by-side, check out our impressions.

Kotaku

These guys have waaay too much time on their hands,but this is some pretty big ownage for cows if its true :(

But I'd doubt anyone could actually tell the difference between the two anyway,still it looks like devs are still having trouble with the PS3.

stvee101

There is no "if" about it at this point. This is Fact.

ign said ps3 had aa :?iamanoobkillme

[QUOTE="stvee101"]

These guys have waaay too much time on their hands,but this is some pretty big ownage for cows if its true :(

But I'd doubt anyone could actually tell the difference between the two anyway,still it looks like devs are still having trouble with the PS3.

UpSwing

There is no "if" about it at this point. This is Fact.

Well the 360 version suffers texture pop-in from what I've heard,so I guess they're even.:)

ign said ps3 had aa :?iamanoobkillme

[QUOTE="UpSwing"][QUOTE="stvee101"]

These guys have waaay too much time on their hands,but this is some pretty big ownage for cows if its true :(

But I'd doubt anyone could actually tell the difference between the two anyway,still it looks like devs are still having trouble with the PS3.

stvee101

There is no "if" about it at this point. This is Fact.

Well the 360 version suffers texture pop-in from what I've heard,so I guess they're even.:)

Or more accurately, Both version have Texture pop-in. The PS3 version does however has less of it.

[QUOTE="iamanoobkillme"]ign said ps3 had aa :?AgentA-Mi6

The PS3 version has what the guys at Beyond3D are calling a "blur buffer" ( it's not AA ) which adds a slight blur to the entire image. This makes "jaggies" less noticable. Also when the PS3 upscales the 640p native rendering to 720p this slightly blurs the image aswell. This is why it has been reported that the PS3 version has a "softer" look.

As pointed out in my post which quoted the Kotaku article on this, the resolution is not the be all and end all. Graphics come down to other things too, like post processing and lighting and whatnot. Please read the article for a more thorough explanation of what I'm talking about.donwoogie

Yes but what matters here is that cows said that PS3 is capable of 1080p at 60 fps, and that the PS3 version was downgraded because of the 360.

Most the reviews I have read say the PS3 version looks better, runs better. thats all I need. This thread is pointless. For a game that has no AA it sure seems that the PS3 has much less Jaggies, then the 360, and the pop is much worse on the 360 version as well as the load times. I have the PS3 version, and I have seen the 360 version. the PS3 version wins hands down. I dont see this blurryness your talking about. The image is crisper, and the AA is better on the PS3, the colors dont pop as much but who cares. Rockstar themselves said the PS3 version was better. This is pathetic honestly.Realm_of_Mania

Here is another comparison the guys at Beyond3D whipped up.

As you can see in the Distance the PS3's Lower Native resolution ( 640p ) causes the supports in the bridge to Blur Together, where it's much more clear and defined in the 360 version.

hmmmm i dnt have hdtv so i dnt care

[QUOTE="donwoogie"]As pointed out in my post which quoted the Kotaku article on this, the resolution is not the be all and end all. Graphics come down to other things too, like post processing and lighting and whatnot. Please read the article for a more thorough explanation of what I'm talking about.Baranga

Yes but what matters here is that cows said that PS3 is capable of 1080p at 60 fps, and that the PS3 version was downgraded because of the 360.

The PS3 may be capable of 1080p and 60fps, but not every game is going to run like that. People need to start taking into account post processing, lighting, etc...... Halo 3 ran at 640p and that game didn't look half bad. CoD ran at less and that looked fine. Resolution is the only thing that impacts graphics.

Kotaku.com just posted an article explaining whether the resolution means the Xbox 360 is definitively better looking:

[QUOTE="Kotaku"]

GTA IV Runs At 630P on PlayStation 3, So What's That Mean?

Early test reports are finding that Grand Theft Auto IV is only running at 630P on the PlayStation 3—falling short of hi def—while the game runs at 720P on the Xbox 360. Clearly, the PlayStation version must look worse, right? It's not that simple. But the basic explanation is easy enough to understand.

You know 720P (along with 1080P) as "high definition" content. What 720P really means is that 720 lines of resolution are displayed on your television in "progressive" format—meaning all at once.

So if GTA IV is running at only 630P on the PS3, that does mean PS3 gamers are seeing 90 less lines of resolution—or quite a bit from a relative standpoint. And it's fast-approaching the Wii's standard def, 480p output.

The bottom line is that resolution does matter, but the more lines of resolution you add will depreciate in value. There's an interesting stat that always sticks in my head: From only about 10 feet away, most people cannot tell a 720p image from a 1080p image on a 42" television.

I'm not sure how well I could differentiate a 630P signal from a 720P signal from 10 feet away. But I'm sure that, given large enough televisions and sharp enough eyes, some of us could. Especially in a game context.

But what we'd be overlooking is that eyes-on reports show that Rockstar has taken the processing power formerly spent on resolution and added it to filters (and maybe even lighting). If GTA IV feels warmer or softer on PS3, that's probably why. And that's where taste triumphs numbers.

(If you're having a tough time wrapping your head around the filter concept, mess with the settings in Mass Effect.)

At the end of the day, both versions look good. But the PS3 used methods other than raw resolution to get there. Of course sharpness and detail is an important—that will be the biggest bonus of 720P. But in an era when we're past merely counting polygons on the screen to measure graphical quality, we shouldn't blow small numbers out of proportion. In short, it's not just the size of your P, but how you use it that matters.

And to see what we thought of the versions side-by-side, check out our impressions.

donwoogie

Kotaku trying to damage control their assertion that PS3 looked better to them. He's is correct in saying the more resolution you get the harder it is to make it look good, but what they are trying to say is just outright damage control. You could apply his argument to the wii and then declare they have the best graphics because 480p doesn't require all that power to go to displaying a higher resolution.

hmmmm i dnt have hdtv so i dnt care

mingo123

I have a 110" screen so I do care (very much).

[QUOTE="UpSwing"][QUOTE="stvee101"]

These guys have waaay too much time on their hands,but this is some pretty big ownage for cows if its true :(

But I'd doubt anyone could actually tell the difference between the two anyway,still it looks like devs are still having trouble with the PS3.

stvee101

There is no "if" about it at this point. This is Fact.

Well the 360 version suffers texture pop-in from what I've heard,so I guess they're even.:)

GTA IV running at 640p on PS3 means that no cow can ever bash Halo3 for being 640p EVER AGAIN!!!

:lol:

hmmmm i dnt have hdtv so i dnt care

mingo123

hmmmm i dnt have hdtv so i dnt care

mingo123

Let's see some side-by-side high-rez screenshot comparisons... please?

(Of the same exact game moment - not random pics at random times...)

[QUOTE="donwoogie"]

Kotaku.com just posted an article explaining whether the resolution means the Xbox 360 is definitively better looking:

[QUOTE="Kotaku"]

GTA IV Runs At 630P on PlayStation 3, So What's That Mean?

Early test reports are finding that Grand Theft Auto IV is only running at 630P on the PlayStation 3—falling short of hi def—while the game runs at 720P on the Xbox 360. Clearly, the PlayStation version must look worse, right? It's not that simple. But the basic explanation is easy enough to understand.

You know 720P (along with 1080P) as "high definition" content. What 720P really means is that 720 lines of resolution are displayed on your television in "progressive" format—meaning all at once.

So if GTA IV is running at only 630P on the PS3, that does mean PS3 gamers are seeing 90 less lines of resolution—or quite a bit from a relative standpoint. And it's fast-approaching the Wii's standard def, 480p output.

The bottom line is that resolution does matter, but the more lines of resolution you add will depreciate in value. There's an interesting stat that always sticks in my head: From only about 10 feet away, most people cannot tell a 720p image from a 1080p image on a 42" television.

I'm not sure how well I could differentiate a 630P signal from a 720P signal from 10 feet away. But I'm sure that, given large enough televisions and sharp enough eyes, some of us could. Especially in a game context.

But what we'd be overlooking is that eyes-on reports show that Rockstar has taken the processing power formerly spent on resolution and added it to filters (and maybe even lighting). If GTA IV feels warmer or softer on PS3, that's probably why. And that's where taste triumphs numbers.

(If you're having a tough time wrapping your head around the filter concept, mess with the settings in Mass Effect.)

At the end of the day, both versions look good. But the PS3 used methods other than raw resolution to get there. Of course sharpness and detail is an important—that will be the biggest bonus of 720P. But in an era when we're past merely counting polygons on the screen to measure graphical quality, we shouldn't blow small numbers out of proportion. In short, it's not just the size of your P, but how you use it that matters.

And to see what we thought of the versions side-by-side, check out our impressions.

stiltzsy

Kotaku trying to damage control their assertion that PS3 looked better to them. He's is correct in saying the more resolution you get the harder it is to make it look good, but what they are trying to say is just outright damage control. You could apply his argument to the wii and then declare they have the best graphics because 480p doesn't require all that power to go to displaying a higher resolution.

Well, I wouldn't say the Wii has the best resolution, but given the power of the machine relative to the PS3 and Xbox 360, they do damn well at producing nice looking games,

Here's a video comparison of the games side by side:

http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/18625

I'll leave it up to your taste. Personally, I think the Xbox 360 looks a wee bit sharper, but the PS3 shows some more vibrant colours at times.

Most the reviews I have read say the PS3 version looks better, runs better. thats all I need. This thread is pointless. For a game that has no AA it sure seems that the PS3 has much less Jaggies, then the 360, and the pop is much worse on the 360 version as well as the load times. I have the PS3 version, and I have seen the 360 version. the PS3 version wins hands down. I dont see this blurryness your talking about. The image is crisper, and the AA is better on the PS3, the colors dont pop as much but who cares. Rockstar themselves said the PS3 version was better. This is pathetic honestly.Realm_of_Mania

Hey check this out...

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1153806&postcount=513

The comparison video clearly shows the difference in sharpness and washed textures. The 360 one clearly sharper and not as washed, but the PS3 clearly shows better colors and a tad better lighting. But all in all it's a great game on either console come on fanboys just give it up already and play the game. I'm going to pick up my 360 copy later today everybody should of had theres by now, instead of posting here about the game.Fusible

Well my 360 is due back this week from repairs so I'm waiting to buy it when I get my 360 back.

Like i said the army of cows damage controlling are already invading the thread trying to spin the facts.MojondeVACA

I have to say you are right. The bottom line is it looks like the PS3 version really had extra dev time to get it up to par to the 360 version. I am sure if they spent as much time on the 360 version as they did on the PS3 version, the 360 version would look noticeably better. 720p and AA compared to 640P and no aa, but a ton of touch up work for the game to look as good as the 360's. Definitely a blow to cows.

[QUOTE="UpSwing"][QUOTE="stvee101"]

These guys have waaay too much time on their hands,but this is some pretty big ownage for cows if its true :(

But I'd doubt anyone could actually tell the difference between the two anyway,still it looks like devs are still having trouble with the PS3.

stvee101

There is no "if" about it at this point. This is Fact.

Well the 360 version suffers texture pop-in from what I've heard,so I guess they're even.:)

If the 360 had an optional install it wouldn't.

[QUOTE="stvee101"][QUOTE="UpSwing"][QUOTE="stvee101"]

These guys have waaay too much time on their hands,but this is some pretty big ownage for cows if its true :(

But I'd doubt anyone could actually tell the difference between the two anyway,still it looks like devs are still having trouble with the PS3.

Relys

There is no "if" about it at this point. This is Fact.

Well the 360 version suffers texture pop-in from what I've heard,so I guess they're even.:)

If the 360 had an optional install it wouldn't.

Lol, I'm just thinking back to those Sarcy comments (I think it was Shane Kim) MS made when the installation was announced for the PS3 version.................

[QUOTE="MojondeVACA"]Like i said the army of cows damage controlling are already invading the thread trying to spin the facts.Coredog777

I have to say you are right. The bottom line is it looks like the PS3 version really had extra dev time to get it up to par to the 360 version. I am sure if they spent as much time on the 360 version as they did on the PS3 version, the 360 version would look noticeably better. 720p and AA compared to 640P and no aa, but a ton of touch up work for the game to look as good as the 360's. Definitely a blow to cows.

Lol. The ps3 version LOOKS BETTER. This has stated by several reviewers. It's not a blow to cows; it's nice to be playing the superior version.

[QUOTE="Relys"][QUOTE="stvee101"][QUOTE="UpSwing"][QUOTE="stvee101"]

These guys have waaay too much time on their hands,but this is some pretty big ownage for cows if its true :(

But I'd doubt anyone could actually tell the difference between the two anyway,still it looks like devs are still having trouble with the PS3.

donwoogie

There is no "if" about it at this point. This is Fact.

Well the 360 version suffers texture pop-in from what I've heard,so I guess they're even.:)

If the 360 had an optional install it wouldn't.

Lol, I'm just thinking back to those Sarcy comments (I think it was Shane Kim) MS made when the installation was announced for the PS3 version.................

What? I was just saying that if the 360 version had an installation option, it wouldn't suffer from any pop-in and would be superiour. So anyways, the 360 can deliver better preformance, and graphics.

[QUOTE="Coredog777"]

[QUOTE="MojondeVACA"]Like i said the army of cows damage controlling are already invading the thread trying to spin the facts.Chughead

I have to say you are right. The bottom line is it looks like the PS3 version really had extra dev time to get it up to par to the 360 version. I am sure if they spent as much time on the 360 version as they did on the PS3 version, the 360 version would look noticeably better. 720p and AA compared to 640P and no aa, but a ton of touch up work for the game to look as good as the 360's. Definitely a blow to cows.

Lol. The ps3 version LOOKS BETTER. This has stated by several reviewers. It's not a blow to cows; it's nice to be playing the superior version.

I would rather not be so nit-picky and think ahead. I'm buying the version with the DLC.

If the PS3 was getting the DLC I would buy that version.

So if the PS3 version runs at a lower resolution, yet looks at least as good or better than the 360 version, surely that isn't too flattering for the 360?Floppy_Jim

It's not very flattering for the PS3 version, either. Having to drop the resolution, and force a mandatory install to accomplish this? Embarrassing if you ask me.

Devs are having to jump through hoops to get a PS3 version of a game to run on par with the 360 version.

[QUOTE="Coredog777"]

[QUOTE="MojondeVACA"]Like i said the army of cows damage controlling are already invading the thread trying to spin the facts.Chughead

I have to say you are right. The bottom line is it looks like the PS3 version really had extra dev time to get it up to par to the 360 version. I am sure if they spent as much time on the 360 version as they did on the PS3 version, the 360 version would look noticeably better. 720p and AA compared to 640P and no aa, but a ton of touch up work for the game to look as good as the 360's. Definitely a blow to cows.

Lol. The ps3 version LOOKS BETTER. This has stated by several reviewers. It's not a blow to cows; it's nice to be playing the superior version.

[QUOTE="Floppy_Jim"]So if the PS3 version runs at a lower resolution, yet looks at least as good or better than the 360 version, surely that isn't too flattering for the 360?MortalDecay

It's not very flattering for the PS3 version, either. Having to drop the resolution, and force a mandatory install to accomplish this? Embarrassing if you ask me.

[QUOTE="donwoogie"][QUOTE="Relys"][QUOTE="stvee101"][QUOTE="UpSwing"]

There is no "if" about it at this point. This is Fact.

Relys

Well the 360 version suffers texture pop-in from what I've heard,so I guess they're even.:)

If the 360 had an optional install it wouldn't.

Lol, I'm just thinking back to those Sarcy comments (I think it was Shane Kim) MS made when the installation was announced for the PS3 version.................

What? I was just saying that if the 360 version had an installation option, it wouldn't suffer from any pop-in and would be superiour. So anyways, the 360 can deliver better preformance, and graphics.

We're talking about a game that was developed primarily on the Xbox 360 platform making the PS3 a port version. The fact that a port version is arguably better looking is a rather astounding fact.

[QUOTE="Relys"][QUOTE="donwoogie"][QUOTE="Relys"][QUOTE="stvee101"][QUOTE="UpSwing"]

There is no "if" about it at this point. This is Fact.

donwoogie

Well the 360 version suffers texture pop-in from what I've heard,so I guess they're even.:)

If the 360 had an optional install it wouldn't.

Lol, I'm just thinking back to those Sarcy comments (I think it was Shane Kim) MS made when the installation was announced for the PS3 version.................

What? I was just saying that if the 360 version had an installation option, it wouldn't suffer from any pop-in and would be superiour. So anyways, the 360 can deliver better preformance, and graphics.

We're talking about a game that was developed primarily on the Xbox 360 platform making the PS3 a port version. The fact that a port version is arguably better looking is a rather astounding fact.

This does not take away the fact that certain things had to be dumbed down to accomplish this. Plus, the mandatory install helped it a long quite a bit. I would imagine without it, the game would be almost unplayable.

The fact that the 360 holds it's own without dumbing down the resolution, and forcing players to install speaks volumes as well. I think it's saying the PS3 isn't as strong as cows think it is.

The PS3 version should have blown the 360 version away, to heard the cows talk about the PS3's ultimate power.