The PS4 is Only Stronger on Paper

In this case stronger on paper means pretty much everything because the hardware in the Xbox One and the PS4 is practically the same. The PS4 just has a straight up more power GPU (50% more stream processors) and lower latency RAM. Their CPUs are practically identical. If the XOne's OS is taking 2 cores away and 3 gigs of RAM then they are making that gap even larger.

This isn't some Cell vs. Xenon debate like back last gen. The PS4 and XBox one are built using the same core technologies. The biggest difference is that the XOne went with DDR3 ram and 32 mbs of ESRAM to make up for the lower latency and Sony went for GDDR5 ram which is DDR3 ram tuned for latency so they didn't need some cash of low-latency ram. 

This is pretty clear. The PS4 is going to be clearly and noticeably more powerful throughout the next generation. We'll really start seeing the difference in a year or two. 

Wasdie

[QUOTE="casharmy"]

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

In this case stronger on paper means pretty much everything because the hardware in the Xbox One and the PS4 is practically the same. The PS4 just has a straight up more power GPU (50% more stream processors) and lower latency RAM. Their CPUs are practically identical. If the XOne's OS is taking 2 cores away and 3 gigs of RAM then they are making that gap even larger.

This isn't some Cell vs. Xenon debate like back last gen. The PS4 and XBox one are built using the same core technologies. The biggest difference is that the XOne went with DDR3 ram and 32 mbs of ESRAM to make up for the lower latency and Sony went for GDDR5 ram which is DDR3 ram tuned for latency so they didn't need some cash of low-latency ram. 

This is pretty clear. The PS4 is going to be clearly and noticeably more powerful throughout the next generation. We'll really start seeing the difference in a year or two. 

NationProtector

I believe we will see it at launch.

Weak post.

A Dodge Charger is only more powerful than a Toyota Yaris on paper.

if there is some kind of huge difference then i didn't see it.

games on both looked about equal.

maybe it will become more clear once both consoles are out and we can do side by side comparisons of the multiplats and gfx effects in exclusives and whatnot.. 

Riverwolf007

Xflop games were running on top of the line PCs. You didn't see anything.

[QUOTE="casharmy"]

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

In this case stronger on paper means pretty much everything because the hardware in the Xbox One and the PS4 is practically the same. The PS4 just has a straight up more power GPU (50% more stream processors) and lower latency RAM. Their CPUs are practically identical. If the XOne's OS is taking 2 cores away and 3 gigs of RAM then they are making that gap even larger.

This isn't some Cell vs. Xenon debate like back last gen. The PS4 and XBox one are built using the same core technologies. The biggest difference is that the XOne went with DDR3 ram and 32 mbs of ESRAM to make up for the lower latency and Sony went for GDDR5 ram which is DDR3 ram tuned for latency so they didn't need some cash of low-latency ram. 

This is pretty clear. The PS4 is going to be clearly and noticeably more powerful throughout the next generation. We'll really start seeing the difference in a year or two. 

Wasdie

I believe we will see it at launch.

At the most multiplats will run a bit better on the PS4. It's really early in the dev cycle for both consoles. Devleoper's haven't had the proper exposure to the hardware for them to really start utilizing it properly. Right now they are probably using more PC oriented engines. The performance of the two consoles will come off roughly the same until they really start optimizing for the hardware.

I guess the hardware differences could be enough, but given what I saw at E3 with Ryse, the Xbox One isn't a slouch. 

Remember even the consoles are hitting diminshing returns now. 40% difference in hardware isn't as large as it used to be. 

Except Xflop games were running on supercharged PCs.

FWIW, Xbox One will use DirectX while PS4 will use OpenGL.  So, they won't be direct ports.

subyman

PS4 has DirectX. So scratch that from your hopes.

whats up with esram area.  how come the ps4 doesnt have any of that?

Cubs360

[QUOTE="cheesie253"]

[QUOTE="IshmaelSonata"]

It's very simple, you just have to look at benchmarks for the two different graphics cards. The 7850 consistently performs ~20 fps better @1080p for games like crysis 3, battlefield 3, etc.

At what cost you say? Well, the xbox one is $100 more.

I might agree with you except there is a 3rd system that uses this architecture in the mix, namely PC, and PC games always come with quality and performance settings. This means the code is already there. Most developers will keep the 3 using the same code base until near the end, then just hard code the settings on X1 and P4 that work best, but that will put the P4 ahead.

[QUOTE="Cubs360"]

whats up with esram area.  how come the ps4 doesnt have any of that?

Guy_Brohski

Exactly. PS4 is still significantly faster even without it.

[QUOTE="DerekLoffin"]

[QUOTE="cheesie253"] I am not saying that isnt true. By what cost I was simply talking about the developers end. Just because one system has a slight advantage it doesnt mean that will translate into better software in the real world. Look at the current gen, the PS3 had much better hardware but never really took a huge advantage. When two GPU are similar like they are with the new systems it will be a small difference. What I do know is DX11 is used more so than Open GL. I am not going into compairing the two but it is something that will affect the way the two systems are utilized and also what comes out of the fact that one card may have more power than another. Ease and convenience of the programming language has a lot to do with the performance of a GPU. It actually is not as simple looking at benchmarks. All that proves is on a platform where no one person shares the exact hardware one card can have an advantage. I can show you some benchmarks where one system with a GTX 660 can outperform a system with a GTX 680. When two system are very close in spec to each other like these two are, small differences in a GPU will yield an advantage but to what extent. The law of diminishing returns.

cheesie253

I might agree with you except there is a 3rd system that uses this architecture in the mix, namely PC, and PC games always come with quality and performance settings. This means the code is already there. Most developers will keep the 3 using the same code base until near the end, then just hard code the settings on X1 and P4 that work best, but that will put the P4 ahead.

Xflop settings will be medium. PS4 settings will be high to ultra. If using PC for an example. And yes I think developers will have no problem using the extra power and faster memory.

[QUOTE="cheesie253"] I am not saying that isnt true. By what cost I was simply talking about the developers end. Just because one system has a slight advantage it doesnt mean that will translate into better software in the real world. Look at the current gen, the PS3 had much better hardware but never really took a huge advantage. When two GPU are similar like they are with the new systems it will be a small difference. What I do know is DX11 is used more so than Open GL. I am not going into compairing the two but it is something that will affect the way the two systems are utilized and also what comes out of the fact that one card may have more power than another. Ease and convenience of the programming language has a lot to do with the performance of a GPU. It actually is not as simple looking at benchmarks. All that proves is on a platform where no one person shares the exact hardware one card can have an advantage. I can show you some benchmarks where one system with a GTX 660 can outperform a system with a GTX 680. When two system are very close in spec to each other like these two are, small differences in a GPU will yield an advantage but to what extent. The law of diminishing returns.

I might agree with you except there is a 3rd system that uses this architecture in the mix, namely PC, and PC games always come with quality and performance settings. This means the code is already there. Most developers will keep the 3 using the same code base until near the end, then just hard code the settings on X1 and P4 that work best, but that will put the P4 ahead.

yeah, people think that just because its multiplat they will look the same... if the ps4 has more power, its not that hard to increase frame-rate or internal resolution or texture resolution or anti-aliasing or lighting/particles or physics or any possible combination of these i mentioned. After all 50% more GPU power is not something you just ignore!

[QUOTE="cheesie253"][QUOTE="DerekLoffin"]

I might agree with you except there is a 3rd system that uses this architecture in the mix, namely PC, and PC games always come with quality and performance settings. This means the code is already there. Most developers will keep the 3 using the same code base until near the end, then just hard code the settings on X1 and P4 that work best, but that will put the P4 ahead.

Xflop settings will be medium. PS4 settings will be high to ultra. If using PC for an example. And yes I think developers will have no problem using the extra power and faster memory.

yeah, people think that just because its multiplat they will look the same... if the ps4 has more power, its not that hard to increase frame-rate or internal resolution or texture resolution or anti-aliasing or lighting/particles or physics or any possible combination of these i mentioned. After all 50% more GPU power is not something you just ignore!

ManatuBeard

[QUOTE="ManatuBeard"]

yeah, people think that just because its multiplat they will look the same... if the ps4 has more power, its not that hard to increase frame-rate or internal resolution or texture resolution or anti-aliasing or lighting/particles or physics or any possible combination of these i mentioned. After all 50% more GPU power is not something you just ignore!

cheesie253

Because it wasn't that significant, it was much easier to program for, and it had more available memory. None of these are the case this time. The difference is large this time, PS4 is the same core architecture so development is essentially the same or easier due to only needing to worry about the one pool of memory, and all signs are pointing to PS4 having more available memory.

[QUOTE="ManatuBeard"]

yeah, people think that just because its multiplat they will look the same... if the ps4 has more power, its not that hard to increase frame-rate or internal resolution or texture resolution or anti-aliasing or lighting/particles or physics or any possible combination of these i mentioned. After all 50% more GPU power is not something you just ignore!

cheesie253

Now:

PS3 - CELL processor with 8 SPUs + separated memory banks + no native shader coding

360 - Simpler IBMPC CPU + Unified memory bank + some native shader coding

Result = 360 is simpler, so its easy for devs to program for it and get the most of it

Next gen

PS4 - x86-64 8 Core CPU + 18GCN GPU + Unified 8gb fast GDDR5 ram

X1 -  x86-64 8 Core CPU + (12GCN GPU+32mb eSRAM) + 8GB slow DDR3 ram

Which one seems to be simpler to you?

.....

I think with this data you can answer yourself...

Devs are going to waste some time optimizing code, sorting what has to go through the eSRAM and what goes through the DDR3, and the most important, the high res textures, can only go through the DDR3, the eSRAM is too small for it and will be used mostly for low latency requests.

lol

Even with the cloud...

The specs given to us about the "cloud power" and assuming internet had NO lag and the cloud could be used for graphics rendering, the X1 would still be 300Gflops lower than the PS4.

Sadly the cloud can only be used for 2 things, fixed lighting processing (something that is dying because the power of nextgen CPU makes global lighting easier to do locally) and insignificant background animations (like foliage movements).

Also, because the cloud is only available for the X1, no way in hell a 3rd party is going to waste time creating specific code to be processed in the cloud when the other versions of the same game wont be able to use it!

In this case stronger on paper means pretty much everything because the hardware in the Xbox One and the PS4 is practically the same. The PS4 just has a straight up more power GPU (50% more stream processors) and lower latency RAM. Their CPUs are practically identical. If the XOne's OS is taking 2 cores away and 3 gigs of RAM then they are making that gap even larger.

This isn't some Cell vs. Xenon debate like back last gen. The PS4 and XBox one are built using the same core technologies. The biggest difference is that the XOne went with DDR3 ram and 32 mbs of ESRAM to make up for the lower latency and Sony went for GDDR5 ram which is DDR3 ram tuned for latency so they didn't need some cash of low-latency ram. 

This is pretty clear. The PS4 is going to be clearly and noticeably more powerful throughout the next generation. We'll really start seeing the difference in a year or two. 

Wasdie

Almost all of the variables at the moment favor the PS4 but there are just a few hiccups for me:

1. I IMMENSELY prefer the Xbox controller over the Dual-Shock. The offset sticks are more comfortably placed and allow greater accuracy (at least for me), the triggers feel more solid, and the overall weightiness of the xbox controller makes it feel more substantial and durable. Sometimes I feel like I'm going to break the Dual-Shock.

2. Forza 5, Titan Fall and Dead Rising all look really, really good. If those games actually look that good on Xbone (apparently the demos may have been running on super PCs) then they will hold their own, if not beat, the PS4 exclusives for graphics...at least from what we've seen so far.

MGS5 and the Division were the two most graphically impressive games at E3...and they are both multi-plat so we'll see...

Im sorry to drop this on you... but nearly everybody at E3 didnt like the feel of the controller of the X1! They say it totally different from the 360.

In terms of controllers, E3 reporters sorted them like this:

360>Ps4>X1>Ps3

Their main complain were the triggers, they say they feel really crappy!

[QUOTE="Senor_Kami"]The PS4 is supposed to be way stronger but like current gen, none of the games I've seen really show that off. Not even from Sony 1st party.kinectthedots

[QUOTE="cheesie253"][QUOTE="DerekLoffin"]

I might agree with you except there is a 3rd system that uses this architecture in the mix, namely PC, and PC games always come with quality and performance settings. This means the code is already there. Most developers will keep the 3 using the same code base until near the end, then just hard code the settings on X1 and P4 that work best, but that will put the P4 ahead.

DerekLoffin

[QUOTE="ManatuBeard"]

yeah, people think that just because its multiplat they will look the same... if the ps4 has more power, its not that hard to increase frame-rate or internal resolution or texture resolution or anti-aliasing or lighting/particles or physics or any possible combination of these i mentioned. After all 50% more GPU power is not something you just ignore!

cheesie253

Because developers designed games for the 360 and then ported to the PS3. It requires less work than creating for a powerful system then scaling it back and porting to to another one. But first party PS3 games looked better than any 360 game ever did because they were designed for the system. Metal gear solid 4, heavy rain, gran turismo 5, last of us, uncharted 3 alone looked noticebly better than any game ever made for the 360.

Most developers didnt bother trying to optimize for the PS3 either which is why they ran so terribly.

In this case stronger on paper means pretty much everything because the hardware in the Xbox One and the PS4 is practically the same. The PS4 just has a straight up more power GPU (50% more stream processors) and lower latency RAM. Their CPUs are practically identical. If the XOne's OS is taking 2 cores away and 3 gigs of RAM then they are making that gap even larger.

This isn't some Cell vs. Xenon debate like back last gen. The PS4 and XBox one are built using the same core technologies. The biggest difference is that the XOne went with DDR3 ram and 32 mbs of ESRAM to make up for the lower latency and Sony went for GDDR5 ram which is DDR3 ram tuned for latency so they didn't need some cash of low-latency ram. 

This is pretty clear. The PS4 is going to be clearly and noticeably more powerful throughout the next generation. We'll really start seeing the difference in a year or two. 

Wasdie

will that cloud computing xbone keeps talking about make up any difference?jsmoke03

No.

Apparently I need to research GDDR5 ram a bit more. I swear it was tuned for latency while the throughput was about the same as DDR3. The low latency is what makes it great for GPUs since they need really quick access to RAM.

True, PS4 is more than just stronger on paper. This isn't like the Cell where developers will have difficulty showing that strength in multiplatform games.

However, the issue this gen is that 360 was the lead platform and PS3 had to have those games shoehorned onto it - hence they were inferior to the 360 versions due to architechtural differences. Sometimes it was a big difference, sometimes small.

If xbox one ends up as lead platform, PS4 will handle the games pretty easily but the xbox one versions wont be gimped as they were designed for it. Maybe PS4 will run it smoother during demanding scenes but I wouldn't go expecting something crazy like PS4 games at 1080P and the 360 versions at 720P.

[QUOTE="jsmoke03"]will that cloud computing xbone keeps talking about make up any difference?Wasdie

No.

Apparently I need to research GDDR5 ram a bit more. I swear it was tuned for latency while the throughput was about the same as DDR3. The low latency is what makes it great for GPUs since they need really quick access to RAM.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="jsmoke03"]will that cloud computing xbone keeps talking about make up any difference?jsmoke03

No.

Apparently I need to research GDDR5 ram a bit more. I swear it was tuned for latency while the throughput was about the same as DDR3. The low latency is what makes it great for GPUs since they need really quick access to RAM.

Well "cloud computing" is bullshit when you're talking about real time rendering. There is no other way to put it. At the most you can use cloud computing to crunch pre-calculated assets like shadow maps, AO maps, AI pathfinding, stuff like that. You couldn't integrate it with real time rendering. All of those things could also be calculated via the local processor, however that could take a long time depending on how complex the scene is.

Microsoft is trying to use it as a PR buzzword because at the end of the day the PS4 is straight up the better peice of hardware. 

It's ridiculously more powerful and it has the system bandwidth to move that data tangibly.  We're also seeing a 256-bit bus versus 128.  It won't be very long before the difference between the games is noticable.

Shewgenja

it will be visible on day one?

no its visible today

compare cod ghosts running on x1 vs killzone shadowfall

all ps4 exclusives are set on the higher level and this time all playstation exclusives will look better tha any x1 game, not like the BS visuals of uncharted that didnt look any where near gears of war

i think a good comparisson will be bf4 on real ingame footage on both systens since its based on very high-end PCs

In this case stronger on paper means pretty much everything because the hardware in the Xbox One and the PS4 is practically the same. The PS4 just has a straight up more power GPU (50% more stream processors) and lower latency RAM. Their CPUs are practically identical. If the XOne's OS is taking 2 cores away and 3 gigs of RAM then they are making that gap even larger.

This isn't some Cell vs. Xenon debate like back last gen. The PS4 and XBox one are built using the same core technologies. The biggest difference is that the XOne went with DDR3 ram and 32 mbs of ESRAM to make up for the lower latency and Sony went for GDDR5 ram which is DDR3 ram tuned for latency so they didn't need some cash of low-latency ram. 

This is pretty clear. The PS4 is going to be clearly and noticeably more powerful throughout the next generation. We'll really start seeing the difference in a year or two. 

Wasdie

i saw the difference last week from x1 version of cod ghosts to ps4s killzone

[QUOTE="kinectthedots"][QUOTE="Senor_Kami"]The PS4 is supposed to be way stronger but like current gen, none of the games I've seen really show that off. Not even from Sony 1st party.Swade009

 

There are a ton of people throwing around the catch phrase "stronger on paper" as if hardware differences are all theoretical, and the xbox one and the PS4 will actually have equivalent real performance.

Stronger on paper happens when hardware specifications isn't translated to performance, it happened with the PS3 where developers had alot of difficulties accessing it's processing capabilities. With the xbox one and PS4, they have almost the same architecture, developers are essentially programming on the same platform. "Stronger on paper" is irrelevant here, because if developers can't leverage hardware on the PS4, the same will happen on the xbox one. In every other case, assuming developers knows what they're doing, you will see a performance difference that translate roughly to the difference in hardware, which is: the PS4 has a GPU~7850, and Xbox one ~7770. This is a MUCH MUCH bigger difference compared to xbox 360 vs PS4.

IshmaelSonata

[QUOTE="DerekLoffin"][QUOTE="cheesie253"] And because those games will be multiplat it means they wont utilize the systems advantages. What will decide that is exclusives. The PS3 was "much more" powerful but had no huge advantages. The platforms are even more alike now which lowers that difference even more.cheesie253

[QUOTE="Shewgenja"]

It's ridiculously more powerful and it has the system bandwidth to move that data tangibly.  We're also seeing a 256-bit bus versus 128.  It won't be very long before the difference between the games is noticable.

leandrro

it will be visible on day one?

no its visible today

compare cod ghosts running on x1 vs killzone shadowfall

all ps4 exclusives are set on the higher level and this time all playstation exclusives will look better tha any x1 game, not like the BS visuals of uncharted that didnt look any where near gears of war

i think a good comparisson will be bf4 on real ingame footage on both systens since its based on very high-end PCs

Awful, awful comparison.

When you see COD Ghosts running on the X1 let me now... so far we have only seen it running on a gaming rig with liquid cooled CPU and a NVIDIA GTX board, trying to pass for X1 gameplay...

.clyde46

This^^^ PS4 is a beast of all consoles.

Not to say XB1 wont have amazing looking games. Heck even WiiU impressed me with there games at E3 graphically.

[QUOTE="Shewgenja"]

It's ridiculously more powerful and it has the system bandwidth to move that data tangibly.  We're also seeing a 256-bit bus versus 128.  It won't be very long before the difference between the games is noticable.

leandrro

it will be visible on day one?

no its visible today

compare cod ghosts running on x1 vs killzone shadowfall

all ps4 exclusives are set on the higher level and this time all playstation exclusives will look better tha any x1 game, not like the BS visuals of uncharted that didnt look any where near gears of war

i think a good comparisson will be bf4 on real ingame footage on both systens since its based on very high-end PCs