The saddest notion on the gaming industry.

There are some impressive set pieces in some games, however I enjoy a game more when random and unexpected things happens. Stalker was great because of that and so were Crysis for example. Dead Space 2 was very impressive in it's setpieces, to a point in wich it dropped my mouth but it didn't make me go all the way to the end.

^lol at Crysis 2.

This is the saddest notion on the gaming industry? Please tell me you're joking...

AngryJuice

There are some impressive set pieces in some games, however I enjoy a game more when random and unexpected things happens. Stalker was great because of that and so were Crysis for example. Dead Space 2 was very impressive in it's setpieces, to a point in wich it dropped my mouth but it didn't make me go all the way to the end.

^lol at Crysis 2.

Masculus

Scripting is a useful tool.

The trick is to use it without making it FEEL scripted.

If i wanted a movie, i would watch a movie, but thats not the point

ironman388

One of the many reasons i play games is to have an interactive piece of story telling. Movies are a non interactive form of story telling. I love what i see in movies but i play games because i can do what we see in movies except your part of the experience rather than watching from a 3rd person perspective.

Im saying why watch a movie when you could get that same experience but in the form of a interactive game? Im all for these cinematic games. If i wanted to watch a movie . . . . . . . . i would play a game instead. If i wanted to get a movie experience id rather do it in a game that allows me to be apart of the experience rather than watch it happen from a 3rd person perspective [movie].

Games for me are just a movie with interaction. If i have time for a movie i will just substitute that time for a game instead. Games are phasing out movies, at least for me. Its only a good thing that games are becoming cinematic. Games are phasing out movies

Do you want to go to the theme park & watch others ride the ride [movies, 3rd person perspective] or do you want to get on the ride yourself [games, 1st person perspective]

[QUOTE="AngryJuice"]

This is the saddest notion on the gaming industry? Please tell me you're joking...

tormentos

I have several things to say.

1. I absolutely despise scripting in games, and a lot of people I know who hate scripting in games are not fans of GeoW either. I despise scripting and GeoW 1 was my least favorite game until I played Uncharted: Drake's Fortune.
2. I highly doubt there are any GeoW fans that criticize Uncharted for being too scripted.
3. All games are scripted, but in many cases, many games take the scripting too far.
4. Sandbox games with a set goal? Must be a terrible sandbox then.
5. Bioshock was a linear shooter with the occational choice you have to make. System Shock 2 was much more immersive and less scripted from my memory.
6. Complaining about excessive scripting is not sad. What is sad is when developers keep taking control from you. I want to have a lot more control over my destiny. Make my actions have more of an impact whether I got out alive or not.

Lets take a few games as examples, that feel very open ended and entertained me a lot more than most scripted blockbuster games.

Sims 3: Multiple career paths, no set goals, the only limitations are those of your own. With mods the replay value and openendedness is almost limitless, except with those set up by the engine.
Mount&Blade: Multiple starting points, no set goals, will you conquer Caldaria by and for yourself? will you do it with friends? will you help someone else conquer Caldaria? or will you just try to profit as much as you can from the war torn continent? join whichever faction you please, betray them as see fit, ect.
Crysis: Maybe you didnt like Crysis 2, but then again. A lot of Crysis fans didnt like Crysis 2. The first one was a lot less scripted. While you still had your goals, the game itself encouraged a lot of exploration, and forced adaptility on you in order to survive.
Metroid: These games thrive in their lack of set pieces. I am sure Foxhoundfox could explain just how nonlinear these games can be, part of this is achieved by a (for most of the part) lack of set pieces.
Any 4X: Again, these thrive in a lack of set pieces. Furthermore, a lot of these games use randomly generated maps. And even if they arent randomly generated, for most of the part the politics are not scripted. This means that you can pull the strings, or you can let the game flow its natural course.

[QUOTE="tormentos"][QUOTE="AngryJuice"]

This is the saddest notion on the gaming industry? Please tell me you're joking...

Maroxad

I have several things to say.

1. I absolutely despise scripting in games, and a lot of people I know who hate scripting in games are not fans of GeoW either. I despise scripting and GeoW 1 was my least favorite game until I played Uncharted: Drake's Fortune.
2. I highly doubt there are any GeoW fans that criticize Uncharted for being too scripted.
3. All games are scripted, but in many cases, many games take the scripting too far.
4. Sandbox games with a set goal? Must be a terrible sandbox then.
5. Bioshock was a linear shooter with the occational choice you have to make. System Shock 2 was much more immersive and less scripted from my memory.
6. Complaining about excessive scripting is not sad. What is sad is when developers keep taking control from you. I want to have a lot more control over my destiny. Make my actions have more of an impact whether I got out alive or not.

Lets take a few games as examples, that feel very open ended and entertained me a lot more than most scripted blockbuster games.

Sims 3: Multiple career paths, no set goals, the only limitations are those of your own. With mods the replay value and openendedness is almost limitless, except with those set up by the engine.
Mount&Blade: Multiple starting points, no set goals, will you conquer Caldaria by and for yourself? will you do it with friends? will you help someone else conquer Caldaria? or will you just try to profit as much as you can from the war torn continent? join whichever faction you please, betray them as see fit, ect.
Crysis: Maybe you didnt like Crysis 2, but then again. A lot of Crysis fans didnt like Crysis 2. The first one was a lot less scripted. While you still had your goals, the game itself encouraged a lot of exploration, and forced adaptility on you in order to survive.
Metroid: These games thrive in their lack of set pieces. I am sure Foxhoundfox could explain just how nonlinear these games can be, part of this is achieved by a (for most of the part) lack of set pieces.
Any 4X: Again, these thrive in a lack of set pieces. Furthermore, a lot of these games use randomly generated maps. And even if they arent randomly generated, for most of the part the politics are not scripted. This means that you can pull the strings, or you can let the game flow its natural course.

You would be surprise at how many do,you probably had not been reading the countless Uncharted threads here,where haters congregate to put it down for which ever reason,scripting been one of them. The sims and some of the examples you give,are games in which your freedom is more open,you can't mix freedom of controls with games been not scripted,Crysis is a scripted game,you have more room for exploration,but that doesn't make it less scripted,you just have more freedom of controls,the sims is a scrip where you are given a freedom of choice,but ultimately it is scripted,all the events you trigger which your actions are a script. And yes Sand box games like GTA are linear and scripted,if you don't fallow certain missions you don't end the game,sure you can keep running without ending the game,but then again you can't say you finish it.There are places where you stand and things happen,and there are scripted events which are trigger at certain times,like talking with pedestrians in side missions,sure you can chose to not do them,but they were trigger by scripted events,just like on Read Dead Redemption.tormentos

I read quite a few Uncharted threads around here. A lot of those who complained arent exactly fans of Gears of War either.

As I said before, Scripting is fine to an extent. However, these scripted events or rather set pieces are taking the scripting too far. Crysis is a lot less scripted and a lot more dynamic than Uncharted will ever be. And dephends a lot less on pulling strings and let the players pull the strings instead. Sims is scripted, but at the same time, a lot of the scripts that occur are heavily dephendant on variables and RNGs. And the variables can be heavily influenced by the player, but not only the player.

This is a sandbox, this on the other hand is not.

the only problem with scripted events is that they make the game lose replay valuedoubalfa

its smell like he prefer more multiplayer games with short stories like COD or watever game related that dont have scprited things~

but ultimately all are lineartormentos

That is not a script. A script can be anything from a.i. behaviour, to a triggered world event; it's an extremely broad term. What it has commonly been associated with is rigid linearity, that tend to focus on event scripting. [QUOTE="tormentos"]but ultimately all are linearskrat_01

Some of my favorite games are those that incorporate the greatest amount of randomness and non-linearity possible.

Roguelikes / Minecraft / Dwarf Fortress / The Sims are examples of sheer randomness...where no two experiences will ever be the same.

Generally people tend to confuse scriptedness with linearity and set piece / cutscene -heavy experiences.

[QUOTE="ironman388"]

If i wanted a movie, i would watch a movie, but thats not the point

brucecambell

One of the many reasons i play games is to have an interactive piece of story telling. Movies are a non interactive form of story telling. I love what i see in movies but i play games because i can do what we see in movies except your part of the experience rather than watching from a 3rd person perspective.

Im saying why watch a movie when you could get that same experience but in the form of a interactive game? Im all for these cinematic games. If i wanted to watch a movie . . . . . . . . i would play a game instead. If i wanted to get a movie experience id rather do it in a game that allows me to be apart of the experience rather than watch it happen from a 3rd person perspective.

Games for me are just a movie with interaction. If i have time for a movie i will just substitute that time for a game instead. Games are phasing out movies, at least for me. Its only a good thing that games are becoming cinematic. Games are phasing out movies

Do you want to go to the theme park & watch others ride the ride [movies, 3rd person perspective] or do you want to get on the ride yourself [games, 1st person perspective]

Movies in this regard currently have the better capacity for telling stories, however games have an entirely different capacity to tell stories in an entirely unique way that film cannot emulate.

Which is not the Call of Duty or Uncharted way; which is why these games, while great, are not exclusively trumpeting the uniqueness of games as a storytelling medium - they're not playing to games strengths, rather apeing film as much as possible.

Is this a bad thing?
Well, no if it's done well it is fine, rigidly orchestrated can be wonderful (see Bulletstorm), but it's not the best representation of the capacity of game storytelling at all. Thing is many games like these two suffer a massive disconnect in presenting and telling a story, and featuring mechanical function, in order to create that 'cinematic experience'.Which is why a character like Nathan Drake, who is a horrible mass murderer that solves every problem with a gun, will never be as compelling as a hero like Indiana Jones, which the character is trying to ape.

Games aren't phasing out movies at all, however they are proving to be even more financially monolithic in returns, and hopefully this will pressure Hollywood into concentrating on creatively sound films then the woeful rehashes that have plagued cinema.

Another thing is that games are overwhelmingly different, and far more broad then cinema will ever be in terms of reach, variety and installation; which makes them far more in terms of flexible business (independent cinema hasn't made nearly the same financial impact as games, even with the recent popularity boom thanks to iOS devices, Steam and Facebook.)

[QUOTE="skrat_01"]That is not a script. A script can be anything from a.i. behaviour, to a triggered world event; it's an extremely broad term. What it has commonly been associated with is rigid linearity, that tend to focus on event scripting. [QUOTE="tormentos"]but ultimately all are linearpeterw007

Some of my favorite games are those that incorporate the greatest amount of randomness and non-linearity possible.

Roguelikes / Minecraft / Dwarf Fortress / The Sims are examples of sheer randomness...where no two experiences will ever be the same.

Generally people tend to confuse scriptedness with linearity and set piece / cutscene -heavy experiences.

The biggest issue I have with a lot of the heavy scripting and set pieces is how they seem to have completely replaced the focus on good level design. Before it seemed to be Level Design>Set Pieces. Now it is more about shoving setpieces in our face while forgetting the values of good level design. Both can go hand to hand of course. Super Mario Galaxy 2 proves this. But this is unfortunately not the case for a lot of devs out there.

[QUOTE="skrat_01"]That is not a script. A script can be anything from a.i. behaviour, to a triggered world event; it's an extremely broad term. What it has commonly been associated with is rigid linearity, that tend to focus on event scripting. [QUOTE="tormentos"]but ultimately all are linearpeterw007

Some of my favorite games are those that incorporate the greatest amount of randomness and non-linearity possible.

Roguelikes / Minecraft / Dwarf Fortress / The Sims are examples of sheer randomness...where no two experiences will ever be the same.

Generally people tend to confuse scriptedness with linearity and set piece / cutscene -heavy experiences.

I just wanted to let you know that you have some fine tastes :)

Yeah, I see a lot of confusion here. I have stated again and again that I am fine with scripting. What I am not fine with is excessive use of cutscenes and set pieces. You can have a scripted non-linear game. Take Deus Ex or The Sims for example.

You know what I think is sad? It's sad how OnLive isn't #1 right now! That's pretty sad if ya think about it.

but ultimately all are lineartormentos

[QUOTE="tormentos"][QUOTE="AngryJuice"]

This is the saddest notion on the gaming industry? Please tell me you're joking...

Maroxad

I have several things to say.

1. I absolutely despise scripting in games, and a lot of people I know who hate scripting in games are not fans of GeoW either. I despise scripting and GeoW 1 was my least favorite game until I played Uncharted: Drake's Fortune.
2. I highly doubt there are any GeoW fans that criticize Uncharted for being too scripted.
3. All games are scripted, but in many cases, many games take the scripting too far.
4. Sandbox games with a set goal? Must be a terrible sandbox then.
5. Bioshock was a linear shooter with the occational choice you have to make. System Shock 2 was much more immersive and less scripted from my memory.
6. Complaining about excessive scripting is not sad. What is sad is when developers keep taking control from you. I want to have a lot more control over my destiny. Make my actions have more of an impact whether I got out alive or not.

Lets take a few games as examples, that feel very open ended and entertained me a lot more than most scripted blockbuster games.

Sims 3: Multiple career paths, no set goals, the only limitations are those of your own. With mods the replay value and openendedness is almost limitless, except with those set up by the engine.
Mount&Blade: Multiple starting points, no set goals, will you conquer Caldaria by and for yourself? will you do it with friends? will you help someone else conquer Caldaria? or will you just try to profit as much as you can from the war torn continent? join whichever faction you please, betray them as see fit, ect.
Crysis: Maybe you didnt like Crysis 2, but then again. A lot of Crysis fans didnt like Crysis 2. The first one was a lot less scripted. While you still had your goals, the game itself encouraged a lot of exploration, and forced adaptility on you in order to survive.
Metroid: These games thrive in their lack of set pieces. I am sure Foxhoundfox could explain just how nonlinear these games can be, part of this is achieved by a (for most of the part) lack of set pieces.
Any 4X: Again, these thrive in a lack of set pieces. Furthermore, a lot of these games use randomly generated maps. And even if they arent randomly generated, for most of the part the politics are not scripted. This means that you can pull the strings, or you can let the game flow its natural course.

this conversation reminds me of the Stanley Parable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gblvOhnv2k0

also: TC is wrong imo

but ultimately all are lineartormentos

the only problem with scripted events is that they make the game lose replay valuedoubalfa

It really doesn't bother me as long as the story is good.

[QUOTE="skrat_01"]That is not a script. A script can be anything from a.i. behaviour, to a triggered world event; it's an extremely broad term. What it has commonly been associated with is rigid linearity, that tend to focus on event scripting. [QUOTE="tormentos"]but ultimately all are lineartormentos

The thing is. People are not complaining about games being scripted, the thing we are complaining about is the set pieces in games like Uncharted, with no variables involved.

[QUOTE="mmmwksil"]

There are varying degrees of scripted games. Some are more blatant than others. Uncharted is an example. So was Final Fantasy XIII.

Some games make it work, others don't. Some gamers dislike the scripted nature of some games, but don't mind it on others.

tormentos

Wow, "dude", I sure hope you do see the difference between a script when you have to cross a certain line in CoD for the enemies to stop spawning and AI script in Zelda enemies. :roll:

The thing is. People are not complaining about games being scripted, the thing we are complaining about is the set pieces in games like Uncharted, with no variables involved.Maroxad

Wow, "dude", I sure hope you do see the difference between a script when you have to cross a certain line in CoD for the enemies to stop spawning and AI script in Zelda enemies. :roll:BlbecekBobecek

Apparently the TC doesn't understand that there are different types of scripts... And most people complain about linear corridor events, not AI.DragonfireXZ95

[QUOTE="DragonfireXZ95"]Apparently the TC doesn't understand that there are different types of scripts... And most people complain about linear corridor events, not AI.tormentos

The Uncharted games are corridor shooters. They may usually take place outdoors, but corridor shooters dont have to be interior. Whether a game is a corridor shooter or not dephends on the level design.

The one on the left is not a corridor shooter, the one on the right is a corridor shooter. Uncharted's level design definately fits the map on the right. Oh and everyone who complains about scripting in this thread is obviously referring to set pieces. Just like me.

Edit: And for that matter, I hate heavy set piece usage in pretty much any game. Whether it is Uncharted, Gears of War, Vanquish, or whatever else there is. Good level, encounter and enemy design (a lost art these days)>>>Good Set Piece Design.

[QUOTE="BlbecekBobecek"]Wow, "dude", I sure hope you do see the difference between a script when you have to cross a certain line in CoD for the enemies to stop spawning and AI script in Zelda enemies. :roll:tormentos

Thats simply not true. Some games offer you system in which you can do what you want. Like AI in Starcraft 2 - it isnt scripted so simply, it tries to react on your actions. The same goes for some bots in Quake 3 Arena that actually learn from their own actions and are getting better during your play, or monsters in Dungeon Keeper, that simulate having their own mind (its basically bunch scripted triggers too, but so complex that you never know about it while playing) etc. etc.

When someone talks about scripted games, he means the games that wont let you decide what to do - you just follow the "script" of the game. Like Call of Duty - there is RPG on the ground and a tank around the corner, there is line on the ground and enemies will pop out of nowhere until you cross it, etc.

but ultimately all are lineartormentos

Scripted games ??? The saddest notion in video games is that the developers and publishers have gamers believing, Online passes are alright. They have some gamers thinking that shafting gamers is a good business practice and that people who buy or rent videogames are a bunch of thieves and lechers.The_Pacific

bioshock pretty much highlights my feelings on scripted events.

theres a flooded "L" hallway in the medical ward where you walk down it and a flickering light manages to cast a shadow of a mad surgeon around the corner in the very most dramatic pose. as you walk around the corner you hear scrambling movement in the walls and the surgeon is gone. walk back through the hallway and the surgeon pops out from a vent. its an intense experience the first time but my shotgun will always be pointed at the vent in later plays through and all im left with is blatant machinations of the light flickering at just the right time and the same guy popping out of the same vent.

the big daddies, on the other hand, are always great experiences. almost every one (the are one or two that are scripted events like the surgeon) is an improvisational experience where i react to the big daddy and the big daddy reacts to me. he might step in a puddle one time to allow me to electrocute him or he might stand back and lob grenades at me to force me to react. i could try to lure one onto an oil slick and set it on fire or i might just get a flaming big daddy tackling me into a wall.