Think Digital Foundry is the bastion of credibility? Think again.

What in gods name is even going on in this post...

What I said about Need for Speed has to do with things DF reported that are falsities pertaining to the game on Saturn, no one is contesting the illumination effect, the PlayStation has it, the Saturn does not, it's not a point of discussion.

And you're going off about the Scorpio again mid post... Please stop.

You have absolutely no understanding of anything taking place here.

@ronvalencia: He's not contesting the verdict DF gave (which is ultimately an opinion anyway, even if the procession of facts make it seem otherwise. Those facts are simply there to give weight to the verdict).

Did DF misreport the illumination effect? No, so it has no bearing on their credibility. At worst that's an omission, not a failure in credible methodology.

Did they misreport the music and instruments? If yes, then it does have a bearing on their credibility.

Again, your topic name is "Think Digital Foundry is the bastion of credibility? Think again.". You are posting shit.

DF's John Linneman has under reported the difference between Saturn and PS1 i.e. the difference with cockpit and lighting is worst than the speedometer bug. John Linneman was very kind for Sega's Saturn.

My English is fine.

You have no understanding of this thread, what is being said, the complaints, or the issues with their findings.

I am not going over this with you again.

P.S. Your understanding of English is not fine.

Again, you have no Eartly idea what is taking place here. Your fundamental understanding of English is poor enough to the point that it's causing you to misinterpret the entire basis for this thread, its context, its content, what its meaning is and its end goal.

You are being reported with every post you make, I suggest you stop.

Hes has some huge problem with the English language,and is easy to see you say one thing he replies with some stupidity no one was arguing,and god forbid if you beat him in an argument he would do some crazy ass spinning like claiming CPU work with 0 yeah thats right ZERO bandwidth usage.

I played the original NFS on PC. Can't recall whether it had a soundtrack.

I know your English cannot be the greatest at times, but you at least understand it enough to remain on point, he's off in an entirely different galaxy right now trying to talk about something completely unrelated.

Yep my English isn't the best,but the problem with Ronvalencia is his lack of understanding of even the most basic stuff like a joke or a sarcasm,if you actually make a Joke about hardware or something like that he will simply not get the joke and continue to actually quote you and prove your argument wrong..hahahahaa

Sony is showing you a scenario with zero main memory access from the CPU. Sony is telling you there's an ideal software optimizations.

From Naughty Dog's minimize CPU main memory access software optimizations.

From EA DICE... note "move more and more CPU rendering logic to GPU".

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-we-built-a-pc-with-playstation-neo-gpu-tech

We have a Sapphire R7 265 in hand, running at 925MHz - down-clock that to 900MHz and we have a lock with PS4's 1.84 teraflops of compute power

The Witcher 3 and Street Fighter 5 as comparison points with as close to locked settings as we could muster, we were happy with the performance of our 'target PS4' system. The Witcher 3 sustains 1080p30, Battlefront hits 900p60, SF5 runs at 1080p60 with just a hint of slowdown on the replays - just like PS4. We have a ballpark match, and we would expect to see similar on our 'Neo' set-up

at straight 1080p on the R7 265-powered PS4 surrogate. Medium settings is a direct match for the PS4 version here and not surprisingly, our base-level PS4 hardware runs it very closely to the console we're seeking to mimic.

Discrete R7-265 delivering PS4 like results for Witcher 3, Battlefront and SF5...

Perhaps you have forgotten,

1. PC's PCI-E version 3.0 16X is CPU to GPU link that will consume GPU's VRAM memory bandwidth.

2. AMD APUs has Fusion links.

Stop being a hypocrite.

Yup

DF are Notorious Sony Fanboys. Probably the reason they lied about the Sega console version. Everything DF reports on has a Sony angle to it.

I remember during the PS3/360 Gen they always Minimized the huge differences between 360 and PS3 games. Many times those PS3 games had poor LOD, more slowdown, lower resolution, etc than the 360 versions. Hell there were 2 or 3 games that the PS3 couldn't even handle. Now that the PS4 is more powerful than the Xbox One, DF exaggerates the differences between the PS4 and XB1 where the difference is usually just a Slightly lower resolution.

@ronvalencia:

"You can't fool me. Discrediting DF has an impact for Scorpio's reveal."

I think the fact DF are notorious Sony backers actually gives Credence to the Scorpio reveal.

MS's "resolution gate" got stoned by DF which in-turn MS was stoned by cows in multiple forums (e.g. Neogaf, Gamespot, Youtube, Twitter and 'etc'), hence the reason why MS targeted DF.

MS is throwing $$$$$$$$$$ at the "resolution gate" problem that caused AMD to delay PC high end SKU releases.

Scorpio's 44 CU GPU has estimated size about 283 mm^2 which is larger than the following GPUs

1. Polaris 10 with 36 CU 232 mm^2

2. PS3's RSX with 258 mm^2

3. X360's Xenos 180 mm^2.

4. PS4 Pro's GPU.

5. 7870's 212 mm^2

6. PS4's GPU ~212 mm^2

283 mm^2 is close to GP104's 317 mm^2.

Scorpio is the world's first game console to have 384 bit GDDR5 PCB like Titan X Maxwell.

Scorpio's basic parameters on memory bandwdith and TFLOPS follows Titan X Maxwell

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpudb/2632/geforce-gtx-titan-x

Every major news/media outlet has made mistakes at some point...it's called human error. Dig enough and you could find mistakes made by CNET/PCGAMER/GIZMODO/any tech site ever...I really don't see any revelations here. Directly inform them of their mistake and if they respond saying your wrong or they don't care, that would be worth posting, but if they post an amendment to their story whether they respond or not, then that would actually strengthen them as reputable, as they'd be owing up to their mistake.

I also connected to this post like Ron to somehow be implying something about the Scorpio articles, because of the timing...the Scorpio coverage is the biggest recent thing DF has done that got so much attention, and the 4k asset remark was from the Scorpio articles. The numbers and benchmarks they put out for current hardware and games which are easily attainable by most people (as opposed to old Saturn gen stuff) can also be doubled checked if there's ever anything posted that seems way off.

There's people on youtube that take every new console apart right in front of you and show the guts, there's no hiding false hardware specs. That's how the Switch was confirmed to be using a standard tegra x1.

So this means Scorpio is indeed Flopio? I predicted it. And lol at ronvalencia going all batshit crazy making no sense whatsoever.

But anyways, I find it hard to believe this was not a honest mistake of some sort, I mean it's very simple to contradict and I don't think they would have expected people to keep quite about it.

@ronvalencia: Jesus Christ wtf are you babbling on and on about?!? Be 100% honest, are you a broken robot that's now regulated to just posting random numbers on gaming sites?

My point, Scorpio has largest GPU chip area size in game console history.

@ronvalencia: And what does that have to do with ANYTHING in this thread? Are you paid by MS to spout off random numbers for the Scorpio on message boards?

We don't know if there are revisions? Different area's got different versions of the game all the time... if they are based in the EU than they could have gotten a PAL version...

Again you being wrong means calling them out like this isn't necessarily valid. There is a discrepancy and we don't know if you have a different version of the game (which happens all the time and usually isn't stated on older consoles) vs a mistake they made on their end. Even if its a mistake someone just needs to point it out and they can look into the differences....

This really doesn't effect their credibility, they would have to be wrong all the time proving their methodology flawed.

The problem with "4K Assets" is according to an industry professional who does the work, it's not actually something that exists, it's a buzzword to fill in a blank because they don't think people can understand a real explanation.

Derp derp, if you need to explain high quality assets to support 4k likely you want to shorten it with a label so you don't have to repeat the entire explanation every time. Just because the industry doesn't generally use this term... doesn't mean we should beat it with a stick if someone uses it. Short hand terms are created all the time. It turns out if a label doesn't exist, you have to make one.

Absolutely nothing, the guy has completely lost the plot and I really hope he gets banned, he needs a time out because he's spamming this shit everywhere.

I've already proven that they emulated the game.

And you haven't proven they ran the same version as well... they admitted to using emulation to get better performance compared to the base game.. so we know they were running two versions...

I'm not the one introducing the theory of non-existent revisions, there's no version of this game missing the music, instrument panel, and the race map. Also after digging deeper, John apparently has an NTSC-J Saturn and he's running the NTSC version of the game, completely different bios and software package from a system standpoint.

So it's not traditional emulation, but he's using the wrong system to run the game and overriding the bios to get the game working, likely with an Action Replay so he's getting compatibility errors.

Ok than thats a difference that can give him different results. Also thats not emulation at all. So you confirmed there might be a revision difference on what they are running... well this thread was pointless...

Actually it is a form of emulation, there is no revision to the game, he's having compatibility problems because he's running the game on a Japanese Saturn.

The thread wasn't pointless and what I've said still stands, these things are missing because the system he has is not intended to run the game, not because the game is missing these features.

NTSC-J Saturn =/= NTSC Saturn

That's not emulation... the game is running on native hardware. He's running a software compatibility patched version of the OS... different revision...

Instead of showing such a late example you could've just shown the PS4/Xbox One comparison of CoD Ghosts. DF claimed it was obvious that CoD was running on a higher resolution than Xbox One, but that was before the patch so they were exactly the same.

Nevertheless I think they are doing decent work.

There are slight differences in the Japanese systems to what we get in North America, it's not native hardware. Native hardware for this game would be an NTSC system, also the operating software is completely different. He's not running a compatibility patched anything, he's forcing the system to run the game and it's causing compatibility problems with the software.

There isn't going to be differences that big or it wouldn't work at all. The silicon is likely the same... Again this has nothing to do with their credibility at this point. They're results are completely valid they didn't misreport correctly. Their results are difference because of whats available to them...

Well you proved your own assertion wrong. Bye now.

Their results are invalid because they're forcing the game to operate on a system it is not intended to run on, and as a result features of the game are not functioning because of compatibility problems. Instead of reporting this and making it known, they go on to state that these features are absent from the game, that's absolutely not true.

Their testing methodology is flawed, and as a function of this their analysis of the game is as well.

The systems aren't that different... the native hardware here is the same on all of the region specific differences. There might be a difference in how the OS handles the system so again something like this is possible with margin of error. If thats all they had to test thats all they had to test.

Also they are using the NTSC-U version of the game. If you are going to point out they are wrong, at least do research first. Do you have the NTSC-U version of the game (its in the video).

None of this overrides the fundamental point, the game is not missing these things, they are in the game hard coded, their testing methodology and reporting of the game is flawed and wrong because they forced its operation on a foreign system and this introduced anomalies and partial compatibility failure.

It's their job to be accurate, I don't care what they have to test or if it's "all they had", if it's not correct it shouldn't be tested.

Well if you had done even 10 mins worth of research.

First I can't find any info on the system they used... so not sure where you got that from.

Second. In the comments section on the article there is a discussion about different revisions, they are using the NTSC-U version, someone confirmed the PAL version has music.. What version do you have? Because my apparent possible multi version theory isn't wrong and my point about maybe you want to look into the versions before making accusations is correct. See this is how a person loses credibility. Knee jerk reaction and accusations before doing a shred of research.

You can see his Saturn right there, it's the NTSC-J white Saturn, there is no revision for the game, he tested the NTSC version on foreign hardware and it had compatibility problems.

Hmmm...

Well, I used my Japanese Saturn with the US disc so maybe it caused some sort of incompatibility. That's very strange indeed.

Thats super weird then. Now I'm concerned that my Saturn is acting up. I'll try one of my other systems. I was surprised to find no music on Saturn so maybe you're right and it just didn't play for some reason. There is music in the GT-R version, at least.

Digital Foundry is the bastion of virginity.

@manticored said:

You can see his Saturn right there, it's the NTSC-J white Saturn, there is no revision for the game, he tested the NTSC version on foreign hardware and it had compatibility problems.

Hmmm...

Well, I used my Japanese Saturn with the US disc so maybe it caused some sort of incompatibility. That's very strange indeed.

Thats super weird then. Now I'm concerned that my Saturn is acting up. I'll try one of my other systems. I was surprised to find no music on Saturn so maybe you're right and it just didn't play for some reason. There is music in the GT-R version, at least.

Where's is this quote from? Not to mention he's doubting it in the context your presenting as there might be other causes to the issues. It could be a scratched CD that causes loading different assets. Some of that statement would imply this hasn't been an issue yet so again, their methodology seems to work fine up until now... there aren't huge differences in hardware that should make this an issue. And if he is retesting than that makes this a more reputable sight so if the article gets updated your basically an idiot for making accusations about credibility.

Secondly you still are refusing to believe that companies can ship fixed versions of the game later on in its lifespan... its completely possible there are different NTSC versions of the game.

Also foreign hardware isn't different hardware, it differs on a software level.. so again your completely wrong about emulation here. So your credibility is shot to shit... there are many things presented now that could cause discrepancies.

Neogaf, I don't care if he's doubting, he's doubting because he is confused and unaware as someone else spoke up about it. I'm not refusing to believe that revisions of games exist, I am telling you that this game does not have a revision. capisce?

Foreign hardware is fundamentally different even to be powered, hell the Hi-Saturn has proprietary chips in it, Samsung made a Saturn, the Japanese market got like 19 different variants of the Saturn with who knows what going on inside, there's two revisions of the white system itself making three in total. I didn't say 'it's emulation', I said it's not traditional emulation, "reproduction of the function or action of a different computer, software system, etc.", it's the game functioning on a different software system from a foreign console that it is not intended to, that we know for a fact, it's loose emulation.

The game is being forced to operate, it not functioning properly should come as no surprise in the event of errors. A scratched CD isn't going to cause the instruments to not exist, a scratched CD is not going to cause the road map to not exist, a scratched CD could cause the music to skip or not work yet it does just fine in the menus rendering your scratched disc theory void.

Give it a rest.

Well, there's no 100% correct source, in anything. Having someone pointing out errors it's not a bad thing. It's only natural. No need to get defensive but also no need for TC to get cocky about it either, kind of silly actually.

And TC saying they are wrong, isn't proof of anything.

Demonstrating they are wrong is proof of everything.

@manticored said:

@waahahah said:

@manticored said:

You can see his Saturn right there, it's the NTSC-J white Saturn, there is no revision for the game, he tested the NTSC version on foreign hardware and it had compatibility problems.

Hmmm...

Well, I used my Japanese Saturn with the US disc so maybe it caused some sort of incompatibility. That's very strange indeed.

Thats super weird then. Now I'm concerned that my Saturn is acting up. I'll try one of my other systems. I was surprised to find no music on Saturn so maybe you're right and it just didn't play for some reason. There is music in the GT-R version, at least.

Where's is this quote from? Not to mention he's doubting it in the context your presenting as there might be other causes to the issues. It could be a scratched CD that causes loading different assets.

Secondly you still are refusing to believe that companies can ship fixed versions of the game later on in its lifespan...

Also foreign hardware isn't different hardware, it differs on a software level.. so again your completely wrong about emulation here. So your credibility is shot to shit... there are many things presented now that could cause discrepancies.

Neogaf, I don't care if he's doubting, he's doubting because he is confused and unaware as someone else spoke up about it. I'm not refusing to believe that revisions of games exist, I am telling you that this game does not have a revision. capisce?

Foreign hardware is fundamentally different even to be powered, hell the Hi-Saturn has proprietary chips in it, Samsung made a Saturn, the Japanese market got like 19 different variants of the Saturn with who knows what going on inside, there's two revisions of the white system itself making three in total. I didn't say 'it's emulation', I said it's not traditional emulation, "reproduction of the function or action of a different computer, software system, etc.", it's the game functioning on a different software system from a foreign console that it is not intended to, that we know for a fact, it's loose emulation.

The game is being forced to operate, it not functioning properly should come as no surprise in the event of errors. A scratched CD isn't going to cause the instruments to not exist, a scratched CD is not going to cause the road map to not exist, a scratched CD could cause the music to skip or not work yet it does just fine in the menus rendering your scratched disc theory void.

WOW that picture means nothing. It literally says no known revisions... even though we know there are different revisions (PAL vs NTSC-u vs NTSC-J). Again you should look into your own sources before trying to use them as proof of something...

Foreign hardware is different but not the part that runs/renders or loads data off discs. As I said the silicon is likely the same. You just need adapters for different power/ouput standards essentially. Most of the time different versions of the console might have fixes or packaged differently... but if the software wasn't compatible from version to version there would be issues that an OS version wouldn't be able to fix.

I didn't say 'it's emulation', I said it's not traditional emulation. Your saying its type of emulation. Its not emulating anything. Your wrong here. They are the same hardware from the software's standpoint otherwise the game code wouldn't run at all. The OS generally has a region check to block specific revisions...

Also disc scratches can easily cause a particular assets to not load at all at different times. Thats the problem with undefined behavior its undefined...

@waahahah said:

@manticored said:

@waahahah said:

@manticored said:

You can see his Saturn right there, it's the NTSC-J white Saturn, there is no revision for the game, he tested the NTSC version on foreign hardware and it had compatibility problems.

Hmmm...

Well, I used my Japanese Saturn with the US disc so maybe it caused some sort of incompatibility. That's very strange indeed.

Thats super weird then. Now I'm concerned that my Saturn is acting up. I'll try one of my other systems. I was surprised to find no music on Saturn so maybe you're right and it just didn't play for some reason. There is music in the GT-R version, at least.

Where's is this quote from? Not to mention he's doubting it in the context your presenting as there might be other causes to the issues. It could be a scratched CD that causes loading different assets.

Secondly you still are refusing to believe that companies can ship fixed versions of the game later on in its lifespan...

Also foreign hardware isn't different hardware, it differs on a software level.. so again your completely wrong about emulation here. So your credibility is shot to shit... there are many things presented now that could cause discrepancies.

Neogaf, I don't care if he's doubting, he's doubting because he is confused and unaware as someone else spoke up about it. I'm not refusing to believe that revisions of games exist, I am telling you that this game does not have a revision. capisce?

Foreign hardware is fundamentally different even to be powered, hell the Hi-Saturn has proprietary chips in it, Samsung made a Saturn, the Japanese market got like 19 different variants of the Saturn with who knows what going on inside, there's two revisions of the white system itself making three in total. I didn't say 'it's emulation', I said it's not traditional emulation, "reproduction of the function or action of a different computer, software system, etc.", it's the game functioning on a different software system from a foreign console that it is not intended to, that we know for a fact, it's loose emulation.

The game is being forced to operate, it not functioning properly should come as no surprise in the event of errors. A scratched CD isn't going to cause the instruments to not exist, a scratched CD is not going to cause the road map to not exist, a scratched CD could cause the music to skip or not work yet it does just fine in the menus rendering your scratched disc theory void.

WOW that picture means nothing. It literally says no known revisions... even though we know there are different revisions (PAL vs NTSC-u vs NTSC-J). Again you should look into your own sources before trying to use them as proof of something...

Foreign hardware is different but not the part that runs/renders or loads data off discs. As I said the silicon is likely the same. You just need adapters for different power/ouput standards essentially. Most of the time different versions of the console might have fixes or packaged differently... but if the software wasn't compatible from version to version there would be issues that an OS version wouldn't be able to fix.

I didn't say 'it's emulation', I said it's not traditional emulation. Your saying its type of emulation. Its not emulating anything. Your wrong here. They are the same hardware from the software's standpoint otherwise the game code wouldn't run at all. The OS generally has a region check to block specific revisions...

Also disc scratches can easily cause a particular assets to not load at all at different times. Thats the problem with undefined behavior its undefined...

You have no idea what you're talking about, those are different regions and alternative versions, not revisions. A revision would be an update to something existing in a specific region, so for example if there was a revision of the NTSC game then there would be two NTSC variations, there's not. Also as I previously stated, even if there was a revision why would they remove the music, instrument cluster and road map? They wouldn't, because if there was a revision it would add those things to a game that launched without them, too bad the launch version of the game has all of them, because it's the only NTSC version of the game that exists.

The software isn't compatible, this game will not load and play on a Japanese Saturn, it has to be brute forced via something akin to the Action Replay to override operation restrictions. It's not hard to understand in any degree that a software package operating on a foreign device with a foreign bios and operating system could run into some compatibility problems as showcased in the video.

You're doing literally everything you can to defend these people and ignoring logic, scratched disc? Get out of here..

@manticored: Saying"I've played the game" isn't demonstration of anything. Even if you are right as you probably are.

Still, you end up coming across a bit silly with your attitude. Just imagine that in the scientific world every time someone finds an error with some results or methodology reacted like a pre 16 teen, crying and screaming that the faulty part should be 100% right, every time.

Its not really how it works. DF were probably wrong on their methods, and you figured out how and why. Have you considered contacting them about what they were doing wrong before coming to the internets acting like an arse?

I came here and presented a thoughtful case, explaining things calm and collected, then other people entered and it has turned into what you see here.

People left and right chasing god to debunk me and what I'm saying, not looking at the facts, not looking at things rationally, not looking at how Digital Foundry screwed up, how they were wrong, how their testing methods are flawed, and being extremely argumentative when this is a very much open and closed case.

Yes I have, they do not respond.

You are guilty of the crime of creating clickbait.

Penalty: Electric chair

What happens next will shock you!