This is why sales matter, ever heard of an install base ?

For those who have argued with me in my previous post that sales don't matter for the Wii.

Here is why they matter, the more units that are sold the larger install base that particular system has, the larger the install base of a console the more it's supported by developers over the smaller install bases.

Needless to say the system with the largest install base right now, like it or not is the Wii and after this holiday season it will only increase, so thats why sales matter it also allows a bigger budget for first party games to be developed as well.

So the Wii will be the most supported system on the market by developers and it's as easy to develop for as the 360 is.

Only the Wii's install base is larger.

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

the-very-best

because they never saw the wii sucess coming, thats why they didnt got serious into developing for the Wii, that might change, but iam not so sure it will

[QUOTE="the-very-best"]

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

Mizarus

because they never saw the wii sucess coming, thats why they didnt got serious into developing for the Wii, that might change, but iam not so sure it will

lol, Series A titles from gaming companies will notcome tothe Wii. The graphics of the Wiiare fartoo inferior.

[QUOTE="the-very-best"]

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

Mizarus

because they never saw the wii sucess coming, thats why they didnt got serious into developing for the Wii, that might change, but iam not so sure it will

Well, Rockstar saw the success and they gave it Manhunt 2, not GTA. Capcom saw the success and gave it RE:UC, not RE5 or DMCIV.

I'm just saying that devs realise that PS3/360 are gonna be around for a long time and the audiences on those consoles enjoy the big games like GTA, RE, Burnout, MGS, FF, Halo etc, while Nintendo are dominating the software charts on the Wii, which may discourage some devs. Also the audience is different.

[QUOTE="Mizarus"][QUOTE="the-very-best"]

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

King_of_Sorrow

because they never saw the wii sucess coming, thats why they didnt got serious into developing for the Wii, that might change, but iam not so sure it will

lol, Series A titles from gaming companies will notcome tothe Wii. The graphics of the Wiiare fartoo inferior.

I expect those same developers to support the Wii in a different way. Capcom is already doing it with games like Zack and Wiki and RE: UC, and most likely remakes of older RE's.

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

the-very-best

Every single one of those gaes were announced and had already been in development before anyone knew the Wii would do so well. Most people were expecting the Wii to pull a gamecube.

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

the-very-best

[QUOTE="the-very-best"]

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

nintendofreak_2

Do really think that's the only reason? Come on get real...

Every single one of those gaes were announced and had already been in development before anyone knew the Wii would do so well. Most people were expecting the Wii to pull a gamecube.

goblaa

Well...why not announce them now? I'm sure Rockstar could bring GTAIV to Wii like they brought Manhunt 2 to Wii. But they're not doing so. Why are Ubi putting out Rayman Raving Rabids on Wii and not AC?

I think it comes down to different audiences.

[QUOTE="nintendofreak_2"][QUOTE="the-very-best"]

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

King_of_Sorrow

Do really think that's the only reason? Come on get real...

[QUOTE="goblaa"]

Every single one of those gaes were announced and had already been in development before anyone knew the Wii would do so well. Most people were expecting the Wii to pull a gamecube.

the-very-best

Well...why not announce them now? I'm sure Rockstar could bring GTAIV to Wii like they brought Manhunt 2 to Wii. But they're not doing so. Why are Ubi putting out Rayman Raving Rabids on Wii and not AC?

I think it comes down to different audiences.

[QUOTE="Mizarus"][QUOTE="the-very-best"]

the-very-best

Well, Rockstar saw the success and they gave it Manhunt 2, not GTA. Capcom saw the success and gave it RE:UC, not RE5 or DMCIV.

I'm just saying that devs realise that PS3/360 are gonna be around for a long time and the audiences on those consoles enjoy the big games like GTA, RE, Burnout, MGS, FF, Halo etc, while Nintendo are dominating the software charts on the Wii, which may discourage some devs. Also the audience is different.

well wii cant handle the best graphics truth, but what iam sayng is that those developers will start to focus more on Wii games incressing their overall quality making more good games for the wii.

they wont giveup on 360 or ps3 since as you said they have more power under the hood, so i belive we will start to see more exclusives and less ports this gen from now on.(at least i hope that)

so overall i kinda agree with you, but i belive the wii will get more attention from developers and that could result on some good quality games

edit: and i hate glitchspot

[QUOTE="goblaa"]

Every single one of those gaes were announced and had already been in development before anyone knew the Wii would do so well. Most people were expecting the Wii to pull a gamecube.

the-very-best

Well...why not announce them now? I'm sure Rockstar could bring GTAIV to Wii like they brought Manhunt 2 to Wii. But they're not doing so. Why are Ubi putting out Rayman Raving Rabids on Wii and not AC?

I think it comes down to different audiences.

I wouldn't say that. RE4, a 2 year old port that was already ported twice before, sold almost a million, and RE: UC sold 125K on its first week in America alone, with no advertising AND coming out a day after SMG AND before the Zapper even came out, getting rid of any gimmick. So it's obvious the Wii has a lot of RE fans.

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

the-very-best

The Wii already has Resident evil 4 & R.E. Umbrella Chronicles, plus Call of Duty 3, as for the other titles, i honestly couldn't tell you why they won't develop them fo the Wii, could be due to the lesser hardware abilities of the Wii, some developers prefer certain dev kits over others and some love pretty HD graphics just like certain gamers do, so they just develop for those reasons, but the majority of development houses that want to make a profit develop games for the system with the largest install base first and then worry about the other systems.

Fact is any game can be developed for the Wii, question is will it always look as pretty or play as smooth as it does on 360 or PS3 probably not, but who wants a system where you can buy almost every game you have on another system anyway.

The PS3 and 360 have almost identical game libraries minus what is now just a handful of exclusives left between them, the Wii on the other hand is not as powerful as the other two but it has a more of a varied selection with more unique and fun titles to play, not all of them are triple A but their still exclusives to nintendo.

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

the-very-best

I think one of the reasons why so many big titles have been delayed is because of the install base, well, I think you'll get what I mean here. Secondly, if every developers completely abandon the wii, wouldn't they focus more on the ps3/360 games which will lead to a better experience?

When I look at my most anticipated game, FFXIII, I realised the install base for the ps3 really has a big impact on its release date. I'm just hoping we can get at least 2 more FF for the remaining life time of the ps3. That said, I think the bigger the install base is, the faster the great games will come.

[QUOTE="the-very-best"]

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

hoplayletsplay

I think one of the reasons why so many big titles have been delayed is because of the install base, well, I think you'll get what I mean here. Secondly, if every developers completely abandon the wii, wouldn't they focus more on the ps3/360 games which will lead to a better experience?

When I look at my most anticipated game, FFXIII, I realised the install base for the ps3 really has a big impact on its release date. I'm just hoping we can get at least 2 more FF for the remaining life time of the ps3. That said, I think the bigger the install base is, the faster the great games will come.

lets not forget also that at this moment wii install base isnt much higher then 360 installbase, so they just rather stick with 360 for now, ONLY if wii sales keepgrowing and suprasses 360 and ps3 by a big margin we will start to see those things happening

I wouldn't say that. RE4, a 2 year old port that was already ported twice before, sold almost a million, and RE: UC sold 125K on its first week in America alone, with no advertising AND coming out a day after SMG AND before the Zapper even came out, getting rid of any gimmick. So it's obvious the Wii has a lot of RE fans.

sexy_chimp

I'm not denying that there is a fanbase for those kind of games on the Wii. I'm saying that the bigger fanbase for those type of games are on the PS3 and 360.

I mean, it is unlikely that something like GTAIV on Wii would outsell the PS3/360 versions.

[QUOTE="sexy_chimp"]

I wouldn't say that. RE4, a 2 year old port that was already ported twice before, sold almost a million, and RE: UC sold 125K on its first week in America alone, with no advertising AND coming out a day after SMG AND before the Zapper even came out, getting rid of any gimmick. So it's obvious the Wii has a lot of RE fans.

the-very-best

I'm not denying that there is a fanbase for those kind of games on the Wii. I'm saying that the bigger fanbase for those type of games are on the PS3 and 360.

I mean, it is unlikely that something like GTAIV on Wii would outsell the PS3/360 versions.

Yes, but if they could manage to port it over without too much effort (Which I'm not saying they could) then I'm sure they would enjoy the extra sales, whether or not it outsold the other versions, wouldn't you think?

I've learn that arguing with sheep is like arguing with women. The main reason isthe Wii is the weaker system. GTAIVwas push back for the sake of the PS3. RE5was push back till 2009. As is DMCIV pushed back for the Xbox360. You telling me they couldn't push it back for the Wii?

King_of_Sorrow

[QUOTE="goblaa"]

Every single one of those gaes were announced and had already been in development before anyone knew the Wii would do so well. Most people were expecting the Wii to pull a gamecube.

the-very-best

Well...why not announce them now? I'm sure Rockstar could bring GTAIV to Wii like they brought Manhunt 2 to Wii. But they're not doing so. Why are Ubi putting out Rayman Raving Rabids on Wii and not AC?

I think it comes down to different audiences.

It has nothing to do with audiance. It has to do with the hardware diffrenece. It has to do with the fact that if R* wants to port GTA4 to the Wii this late in development that they will have find the team, time, and money to make it happen. And if they do make a Wii version, then they might as well make a PS2 version. Same thing with AC.

If it were about audiance, then they would had never bothered with MH2. With Wii's userbase as high as it is, audiance is not a problem.

For those who have argued with me in my previous post that sales don't matter for the Wii.

Here is why they matter, the more units that are sold the larger install base that particular system has, the larger the install base of a console the more it's supported by developers over the smaller install bases.

Needless to say the system with the largest install base right now, like it or not is the Wii and after this holiday season it will only increase, so thats why sales matter it also allows a bigger budget for first party games to be developed as well.

So the Wii will be the most supported system on the market by developers and it's as easy to develop for as the 360 is.

Only the Wii's install base is larger.

macmutt

WRONG

Software sales matter MORE. Its true the user base influence what type of games release for that console, but not the overall user base. Its the type of users. And the way publishers measure that is software sales by genre.

If Console A1 million user base buys more action, RPG, Racers than Console B's 30 million user base. Which is most likely to get the bulk of the high budget action, rpg, and racer games?

360 having the larger hardcore base will most likely get the more big budget games than the Wii.

Yes, but if they could manage to port it over without too much effort (Which I'm not saying they could) then I'm sure they would enjoy the extra sales, whether or not it outsold the other versions, wouldn't you think?

sexy_chimp

Maybe. I wouldn't be surprised if R* made a different kind of GTA game for Wii though. But they won't put the main entries on Wii.

Making a game exclusive makes the game more "special" and increases hype for it. Watch and see GTAIV sell millions (at least 5 million) less than GTA:SA (coming from a huge GTA fan).

[QUOTE="sexy_chimp"]

Yes, but if they could manage to port it over without too much effort (Which I'm not saying they could) then I'm sure they would enjoy the extra sales, whether or not it outsold the other versions, wouldn't you think?

the-very-best

Maybe. I wouldn't be surprised if R* made a different kind of GTA game for Wii though. But they won't put the main entries on Wii.

Making a game exclusive makes the game more "special" and increases hype for it. Watch and see GTAIV sell millions (at least 5 million) less than GTA:SA (coming from a huge GTA fan).

Maybe that's because the 360/PS3 userbase is about 1/6th of that of the PS2. I don't see how making a game multiplat is a bad thing, and I really don't think people buy games based on if they are exclusive or not.

[QUOTE="King_of_Sorrow"]

I've learn that arguing with sheep is like arguing with women. The main reason isthe Wii is the weaker system. GTAIVwas push back for the sake of the PS3. RE5was push back till 2009. As is DMCIV pushed back for the Xbox360. You telling me they couldn't push it back for the Wii?

nintendofreak_2

Waste of money to do so. Also, Nintendo fanbase are very young for those games. The minute Nintendo went with the Wii, they said they will win it off 1st party alone. Don't expect 3rd party glory on the Wii. it's not going to happen.

It has nothing to do with audiance. It has to do with the hardware diffrenece. It has to do with the fact that if R* wants to port GTA4 to the Wii this late in development that they will have find the team, time, and money to make it happen. And if they do make a Wii version, then they might as well make a PS2 version. Same thing with AC.

If it were about audiance, then they would had never bothered with MH2. With Wii's userbase as high as it is, audiance is not a problem.

goblaa

There is a big difference between the titles Ubi has planned for Wii and the titles planned for PS3/360. There is an audience difference. Ubisoft plans more casual titles for the Wii, while it focuses on games like GRAW/R6/SC for PS3/360.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. I'm just saying that Wii is where the non-gamers are right now and that is why the devs are responding in this manner.

And I still don't get why R* can't make GTAIV for the Wii. If they wanted to, they could. I know there is a hardware difference, but it doesn't mean they can't make the game for the console.

[QUOTE="nintendofreak_2"][QUOTE="King_of_Sorrow"]

I've learn that arguing with sheep is like arguing with women. The main reason isthe Wii is the weaker system. GTAIVwas push back for the sake of the PS3. RE5was push back till 2009. As is DMCIV pushed back for the Xbox360. You telling me they couldn't push it back for the Wii?

King_of_Sorrow

Waste of money to do so. Also, Nintendo fanbase are very young for those games. The minute Nintendo went with the Wii, they said they will win it off 1st party alone. Don't expect 3rd party glory on the Wii. it's not going to happen.

I pointed out a few posts ago that RE games sell well on the Wii, and last time I checked RE games are rated M.

I've learn that arguing with sheep is like arguing with women. The main reason isthe Wii is the weaker system. GTAIVwas push back for the sake of the PS3. RE5was push back till 2009. As is DMCIV pushed back for the Xbox360. You telling me they couldn't push it back for the Wii?King_of_Sorrow

You have a point but the only point is that no game planned for another system can be ported to the wii. You're right in that GTA4 could not be ported over to the wii because it would be nearly impossible.

But, if the wii's momentum continues, then we will see a shift of developer support to the wii for NEW projects. Devs will have to invest a lot of time and money in titles or risk being lost in a sea of software sure to hit the system. A large install base means a lot of potential profit, but just look at what's happening right now. Nintendo is the only one fully investing in the wii and so they are the only ones making the real coin. I would point to capcom as slowly coming around. Zack and Wiki in particular, which was a great little game that was well designed, but it also didn't take much time to program because its so simple, and capcom didn't even make enough units to match demand (I still cannot find it for purchase, I had to rent). Capcom's Monster Hunter 3 is a huge deal for the wii though

I wouldn't not be surprised to see a ground up GTA game on the wii. It would not have the scope of the 360/ps3/pc versions, but it would take advantage of the wii's unique abilities.

[QUOTE="nintendofreak_2"][QUOTE="King_of_Sorrow"]

I've learn that arguing with sheep is like arguing with women. The main reason isthe Wii is the weaker system. GTAIVwas push back for the sake of the PS3. RE5was push back till 2009. As is DMCIV pushed back for the Xbox360. You telling me they couldn't push it back for the Wii?

King_of_Sorrow

Waste of money to do so. Also, Nintendo fanbase are very young for those games. The minute Nintendo went with the Wii, they said they will win it off 1st party alone. Don't expect 3rd party glory on the Wii. it's not going to happen.

I would imagine there is not a GTA4 in the works for Wii because R* is not intrested in devoting more time, more money, and more teams into a project where all they do is completly recode a game with worse visuals and tacked on motion controls.

And if ubi oly wanted to make rabbit games for the wii, then they wouldn't had jumped right in with a yakuza shooter.

lol, the Wii is winning the console race.

Just imagine if those games did come out on the Wii, but dumbed down graphically, and using the Wii remote, then there would be no reason at all to even think the Wii wouldn't easily take first place this gen. Graphics don't matter, only third party support matters(as we know all to well), and starting with Guitar Hero III, your gonna start seeing a lot more third party games on the Wii that aren't shovelware.

If that happens, the multiplat heavy consoles are gonna get owned even harder than they already are.

I mean, you've heard of NPD right? People still perfer the Wii, faults and all, to the other consoles, because it's funner, and has exclusive Nintendo games, is cheaper, is the most popular, comes with a free, great game, and has virtual console.

That's just the way things work guys. No matter what your opinions are, the fact is, the Wii is winning the console hardware sales race, and if your company was winning it, then you know that is all that matters on system wars.

Its like this, "best console" is an opinion. Yours or mine, doesn't matter. "Best SELLING Console" is a fact, and the fact is, the Wii has outsold the 360 in half of the release time. It's pretty amazing, and all of the little "deductions" you can possibly come up with, don't change that fact one bit, and really, isn't that what these forums are all about? Who is right? Well, I'M right. Why don't you dispute my facts with your opinions and see how far that gets ya?

...so why don't you go "deduce" your system some sales number, they could use it in their bid for second place.

I love these forums, hehe.

[QUOTE="nintendofreak_2"][QUOTE="King_of_Sorrow"][QUOTE="nintendofreak_2"][QUOTE="the-very-best"]

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

King_of_Sorrow

Do really think that's the only reason? Come on get real...

I've learn that arguing with sheep is like arguing with women. The main reason isthe Wii is the weaker system. GTAIVwas push back for the sake of the PS3. RE5was push back till 2009. As is DMCIV pushed back for the Xbox360. You telling me they couldn't push it back for the Wii?

And that comes back to the original argument the TC is proposing, The install base!

One of the reason why those games kept on pushing back is the install base, especially for the PS3. The PS3 attach rate is good at around 10% of the "population" per game. But because the install base is so low, software sales are simply craptacular by comparison! Even the Wii now has three third-party million sellers (soon a fourth in Guitar Hero III and a fifth maybe in RE:UC). The PS3.....NONE! X360 attach rate is AMAZING but third-party is probably feeling the cruch because of the PS3 because they are spending millions on the console and might not have anything to show for it! They are probably looking at the Wii with envy and kicking themsleves for not thinking of a Wii version earlier in the game!

Yes the Wii has a large install base. But with dumped games that keeps ported it shows that some developers are out to make a quick buck.

Happy though that some companys are getting over how Nintendo did in the past (Square, Capcom, and Sega). But it's just what the developers want to do with some want to pursue stunning visuals. Others its all about the money or relationships that they hold.

[QUOTE="the-very-best"]

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

goblaa

Every single one of those gaes were announced and had already been in development before anyone knew the Wii would do so well. Most people were expecting the Wii to pull a gamecube.

[QUOTE="Mizarus"][QUOTE="the-very-best"]

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

King_of_Sorrow

because they never saw the wii sucess coming, thats why they didnt got serious into developing for the Wii, that might change, but iam not so sure it will

lol, Series A titles from gaming companies will notcome tothe Wii. The graphics of the Wiiare fartoo inferior.

For those who have argued with me in my previous post that sales don't matter for the Wii.

Here is why they matter, the more units that are sold the larger install base that particular system has, the larger the install base of a console the more it's supported by developers over the smaller install bases.

Needless to say the system with the largest install base right now, like it or not is the Wii and after this holiday season it will only increase, so thats why sales matter it also allows a bigger budget for first party games to be developed as well.

So the Wii will be the most supported system on the market by developers and it's as easy to develop for as the 360 is.

Only the Wii's install base is larger.

macmutt

How about talking when the sales do pay off? So far, all the hyped 3rd party games have been absent from the wii. I'll gladly accept ownage if the wii ever gets the best 3rd party games. I'm not worried b/c it never will.

And just for laughs, "will be the most supported...." = "just wait". Now sheeps are saying it.

[QUOTE="King_of_Sorrow"][QUOTE="Mizarus"][QUOTE="the-very-best"]

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

sexy_chimp

because they never saw the wii sucess coming, thats why they didnt got serious into developing for the Wii, that might change, but iam not so sure it will

lol, Series A titles from gaming companies will notcome tothe Wii. The graphics of the Wiiare fartoo inferior.

I expect those same developers to support the Wii in a different way. Capcom is already doing it with games like Zack and Wiki and RE: UC, and most likely remakes of older RE's.

And.....you think that's a good thing? not getting the 3rd party games that matter like GTAIV, etc, and setteling for last gen games like manhunt, re4, tomb raider, and okami and remakes of old re games that probably won't look that much better because of the Wiis hardware?

[QUOTE="Mizarus"][QUOTE="the-very-best"]

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

King_of_Sorrow

because they never saw the wii sucess coming, thats why they didnt got serious into developing for the Wii, that might change, but iam not so sure it will

lol, Series A titles from gaming companies will notcome tothe Wii. The graphics of the Wiiare fartoo inferior.

Yet Wii has the lowest attach ratio this gen even with its install base.

[QUOTE="the-very-best"]

It will get more games.

But explain why GTAIV isn't going to Wii. Or RE5. Or DMCIV. Or COD4. Or Assassin's Creed. Or any other major 3rd party title. Devs have to look into what console is right for them. It's more than just about sales.

goblaa

Every single one of those gaes were announced and had already been in development before anyone knew the Wii would do so well. Most people were expecting the Wii to pull a gamecube.

Sure, but those games still ain't gonna be ported to the Wii.

Those developers have certain visions they want to achieve that the Wii's technical specifications simply cannot support.

360's attach rate is unmatched. Just because they buy systems doesn't mean they actually play games on it. That doesn't mean that they're going to play YOUR game on it. /thread well that ended quickly. Sorry I came so late.Pro_wrestler

QFT sheep pay attention to this guy he actually knows what he's talking about