Tomb Raider reboot is not Tomb Raider game

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Demonjoe93

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#51  Edited By Demonjoe93
Member since 2009 • 9869 Posts

@Salt_The_Fries said:

And it's everything because Tomb Raider first appeared on PS1, home of innovation.

Wasn't it released on the Saturn at the same time?

EDIT: Nevermind, I saw your next post, lol.

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deactivated-5ebea105efb64

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#52 deactivated-5ebea105efb64
Member since 2013 • 7262 Posts

Needs moar puzzles, less QTE's and more supernatural stuff.(Like the dragon from TR2 or the midas hand turning lara into a gold statue in both TR1 and anniversary. )

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#53  Edited By ghostwarrior786
Member since 2005 • 5811 Posts

as i said before, uncharted changed gaming upon its release and uc4 will do the same. the world will not be the same ever again

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lostrib

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#54 lostrib
Member since 2009 • 49999 Posts

@FreedomFreeLife: flagged for offensive sig

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pelvist

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#55  Edited By pelvist
Member since 2010 • 9001 Posts

Tomb Raider was an excellent game for its time but I was getting bored of its repetitive formula by the end of Tomb Raider 4. I did enjoy the new Tomb Raider -maybe even more than I did the originals, but you are right it is very different in gameplay and mechanics to the originals. Just like Doom 3 was to Doom 2 and Fallout 3 was to Fallout 2 and Syndicate was to any other Syndicate game and Ghost Recon AW was to any Ghost Recon Game and Rainbow Six Vegas was to a Rainbow 6 Game and, and...

This shit happens, its really annoying for fans of these franchises to see their favorite games be bastardised for a younger audience but theres really nothing we can do about it except remember the classics and enjoy the new games for what they are.

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AdobeArtist

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#56  Edited By AdobeArtist  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 25184 Posts

@cainetao11 said:

Funny how you don't mention how the series was stagnating and shit before the reboot. So basically, nothing is to ever change once it comes out. Pretty boring world you want there

I was gonna say. After the 3rd game the series was losing its luster. Gamers and critics began harping on the old Tomb Raider games becoming rehashes of the same old formula. They were also plagued by mechanical design problems of clunky platforming, combat, and camera. But nobody minded so much because at the time it was such a new and refreshing game experience we never had before of exploration and puzzle design, with acrobatic platforming beyond just jumping on floating platforms. But as time went on and the issues weren't fixed, gamers took more notice of them, becoming less and less forgiving.

The whole problem with wanting new games to be "just like the old ones" is stagnation. Series can't continue over so many iterations (especially across 3 generations) without evolving, especially to benefit from the advantages of new technology that wasn't available when the original installments came out. Lara's character design being a perfect example of this, where she went from being a caricature to a believable organic human being.

Now the new game did have problems. The puzzles were far too easy in both design (too small in scale) and level of challenge. It was disappointing that in each tomb (being optional only) the goal was within line of sight to the entrance. I wouldn't expect each one to be as big as the island itself but c'mon, give us a few interconnecting chambers to try and find the exit. In the next game I hope Crystal Dynamics will make the tombs larger with more challenging puzzles, and make them integrated as part of the game progression, not as off the side components.

But too many people here aren't giving the game enough credit for its platforming and exploration. The set pieces and exploration moments were handled in separate components to the overall game. Yes the main story elements were linear and scripted set pieces, but once the combat (which itself was hugely improved from previous clunky mechanics) moments were beaten, the environment Lara was in was available as a playground. This is where the fluid platforming came into play to be used to explore each setting (hub) for finding all the treasures and hidden collectibles. The fact is, many of the treasures were only possible to find when exploring off the main story path.

One of the best things to be introduced to the TR series is the metroidvania design. For the first time you could revisit all areas of the world, and with newly acquired skills and gear, fully access parts of the terrain that were previously inaccessible. The climbing axe made scaling sheer surfaces seem so natural, and I loved using the rope arrow to create my own bridges to get across various chasms on the island. Was this possible in Uncharted games, or did that not take a truly linear levels progression, going in a single direction from A to B to C, and so on?

@FreedomFreeLife said:

Im not saying that new game is bad. It´s good game but it´s not Tomb Raider game. It´s Uncharted 1.5 in fact.

Gotta love the IRONY of this coming not only from TC but a sentiment I've seen posted before, considering that Uncharted itself was conceived from Tomb Raider; taking the concept of a treasure hunting explorer and taking that idea into a Michael Bay explosive action direction. And yes the new Tomb Raider does have its share of high octane set pieces incorporating the cinematic flair of modern games, but outside of that it still maintains open ended environmental exploration, as I outlined above.

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#57 DocSanchez
Member since 2013 • 5557 Posts

@princessgomez92: I actually agree with Michael. Damn.

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#58 cyclops10
Member since 2004 • 696 Posts

Agreed. People can harp about it not being ''classic'' all they like, but if they did stick to the classic formula no one here would be talking about it because no one would give a crap.

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Seabas989

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#59  Edited By Seabas989
Member since 2009 • 13567 Posts

I am playing TR 2013 right now and I think so far it's a lot better then UC3.

It has flaws but it has promise.

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#60 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

You are presuming gamers actually want to think their way through a game these days.

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Phazevariance

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#61 Phazevariance
Member since 2003 • 12356 Posts

By today's standards, the puzzles in the original TR were very basic and gameplay was very stale since it hand't changed in years. The reboot was a much more interesting game, although I would like to see more puzzle based gameplay but the puzzles need to be more complex. It's how games evolve. Look at duke nukem, if you don't evolve you flop hard.

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#62 MonsieurX
Member since 2008 • 39858 Posts

TC needs to learn what "facts" mean really

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speedfreak48t5p

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#63 speedfreak48t5p
Member since 2009 • 14494 Posts

A couple of the puzzles from the reboot were way too hard, just ditch them entirely and focus on exploration and making a fun game.

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#64  Edited By Gue1
Member since 2004 • 12171 Posts

@AdobeArtist said:

@FreedomFreeLife said:

Im not saying that new game is bad. It´s good game but it´s not Tomb Raider game. It´s Uncharted 1.5 in fact.

Gotta love the IRONY of this coming not only from TC but a sentiment I've seen posted before, considering that Uncharted itself was conceived from Tomb Raider; taking the concept of a treasure hunting explorer and taking that idea into a Michael Bay explosive action direction. And yes the new Tomb Raider does have its share of high octane set pieces incorporating the cinematic flair of modern games, but outside of that it still maintains open ended environmental exploration, as I outlined above.

it's not irony, it's the truth. The evolution of TB was becoming more like Uncharted. The combat, exploration, platforming, puzzles, the online component and even some animations are straight up rip-off from Uncharted. Before Uncharted TB had no stealth, no cover system, no set-pieces, no over the shoulder camera and no need for believable characters.

Uncharted on the other hand took nothing from Tomb Raider but everything from Indiana Jones and Gears of War. Just because the level design is more open and that you can make a zip-line using a bow on TB reboot it doesn't mean they didn't rip-off Uncharted left and right because that's exactly what they did. Even the environments are oddly similar both in design and art.

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#65  Edited By jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64057 Posts

@AdobeArtist said:

@cainetao11 said:

Funny how you don't mention how the series was stagnating and shit before the reboot. So basically, nothing is to ever change once it comes out. Pretty boring world you want there

I was gonna say. After the 3rd game the series was losing its luster. Gamers and critics began harping on the old Tomb Raider games becoming rehashes of the same old formula. They were also plagued by mechanical design problems of clunky platforming, combat, and camera. But nobody minded so much because at the time it was such a new and refreshing game experience we never had before of exploration and puzzle design, with acrobatic platforming beyond just jumping on floating platforms. But as time went on and the issues weren't fixed, gamers took more notice of them, becoming less and less forgiving.

The whole problem with wanting new games to be "just like the old ones" is stagnation. Series can't continue over so many iterations (especially across 3 generations) without evolving, especially to benefit from the advantages of new technology that wasn't available when the original installments came out. Lara's character design being a perfect example of this, where she went from being a caricature to a believable organic human being.

Now the new game did have problems. The puzzles were far too easy in both design (too small in scale) and level of challenge. It was disappointing that in each tomb (being optional only) the goal was within line of sight to the entrance. I wouldn't expect each one to be as big as the island itself but c'mon, give us a few interconnecting chambers to try and find the exit. In the next game I hope Crystal Dynamics will make the tombs larger with more challenging puzzles, and make them integrated as part of the game progression, not as off the side components.

But too many people here aren't giving the game enough credit for its platforming and exploration. The set pieces and exploration moments were handled in separate components to the overall game. Yes the main story elements were linear and scripted set pieces, but once the combat (which itself was hugely improved from previous clunky mechanics) moments were beaten, the environment Lara was in was available as a playground. This is where the fluid platforming came into play to be used to explore each setting (hub) for finding all the treasures and hidden collectibles. The fact is, many of the treasures were only possible to find when exploring off the main story path.

One of the best things to be introduced to the TR series is the metroidvania design. For the first time you could revisit all areas of the world, and with newly acquired skills and gear, fully access parts of the terrain that were previously inaccessible. The climbing axe made scaling sheer surfaces seem so natural, and I loved using the rope arrow to create my own bridges to get across various chasms on the island. Was this possible in Uncharted games, or did that not take a truly linear levels progression, going in a single direction from A to B to C, and so on?

Gotta love the IRONY of this coming not only from TC but a sentiment I've seen posted before, considering that Uncharted itself was conceived from Tomb Raider; taking the concept of a treasure hunting explorer and taking that idea into a Michael Bay explosive action direction. And yes the new Tomb Raider does have its share of high octane set pieces incorporating the cinematic flair of modern games, but outside of that it still maintains open ended environmental exploration, as I outlined above.

This argument that old TR sucked is ignoring a very basic concept. Was it shit execution or was it the formula. Because a shitty camera, bad shooting mechanics, way too many dumb leap of faith jumps, and poor check points in dull ass puzzle areas isn't the formula's fault, that's on the developer.

Metroid Prime to this day is still playable. Zelda when it doesn't introduce bullshit (ala Skyward Sword) is still fucking brilliant: Link Between Worlds. Not that I disagree that the new Tomb Raider is fun, but let's be clear here Tomb Raider in the old formula couldn't compete because the developers couldn't hit their mark. The Metroid(castlevania can kiss my ass before I call this that other word)-like elements and the optional tombs are brilliant ideas on paper, but what they did with the game was bare bones as shit. If you're going back to an area you are doing it to get some worthless collectible, the pace of the game always has you pressing forward, and the optional tombs are pedestrian as puzzles.

Fundamentally speaking old TR when it worked was more of a thinking game. New one is more reflex. Is there a happy balance to be found? Absolutely, but let's not get wild here and say the "formula got stale"...because it didn't get stale, they just sucked. There is a difference. THey suck less at making a game work the way the new one does, and have a shit load of potential with this base.

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#66 jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64057 Posts

@speedfreak48t5p said:

A couple of the puzzles from the reboot were way too hard, just ditch them entirely and focus on exploration and making a fun game.

They are see-saw puzzles -_-

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#67 Ross_the_Boss6
Member since 2009 • 4056 Posts

That's usually how reboots go...

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#68  Edited By ReadingRainbow4
Member since 2012 • 18733 Posts

I miss old tombraider. Anniversary was awesome.

Why did the 360 usher in the age of idiot proof game design?

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#70 cainetao11
Member since 2006 • 38083 Posts

@AdobeArtist: Well said dude. I liked the reboot, it was far from perfect as you pointed out. What I really laugh at is this mindset that we the consumers get to decide if it is a Tomb Raider game. I had no hand in the creation process of the game. I am a big supporter that the creators decide what they create. I may not like the changes they bring, but they get to label or name what they create.

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speedfreak48t5p

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#71  Edited By speedfreak48t5p
Member since 2009 • 14494 Posts

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

I miss old tombraider. Anniversary was awesome.

Why did the 360 usher in the age of idiot proof game design?

You're trolling is bad and you should feel bad.

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ReadingRainbow4

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#72  Edited By ReadingRainbow4
Member since 2012 • 18733 Posts

@speedfreak48t5p said:

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

I miss old tombraider. Anniversary was awesome.

Why did the 360 usher in the age of idiot proof game design?

You're trolling is bad and you should feel bad.

It's impossible to troll when you tell the truth.

Almost nothing but bad things happened to games in 7th gen, thankfully Sony called upon From Software and delivered us from Casual Softs dream.

Hell, even Squaresoft fell victim, a once great paragon of interactive storytelling and Japanese Roleplaying games.

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#73 padaporra
Member since 2005 • 3508 Posts

I don't agree when people say "x game is not x game anymore". That's just ridiculous. Games change and evolve, and no series need to be the same everytime to be true to itself.

That said, I do feel the reboot Tomb Raider a lot of times feels closer to Uncharted than to previous Tomb Raiders. Sometimes that's a good thing, but one thing that I missed severely was the great plataforming and puzzle solving of previous games. Elements that reached their heights in Anniversary.

On a whole the reboot was a good thing, especially because it seemed to put Tomb Raider name back with the meaningful franchises, but there are things that were missed that the old Tomb Raider fan in me missed and hopes to be back in the sequel.

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#74 harry_james_pot  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 11414 Posts

Agreed. it wasn't a bad game, but it was a terrible Tomb Raider game.

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#75 blamix99
Member since 2011 • 2685 Posts

@mems_1224 said:

good. the original tomb raider games fucking sucked. the tomb raider reboot was the best uncharted game of last gen.

yup but not the way you suck though, LOL i wonder what kind of games you play back then?

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#76 jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64057 Posts

@Gue1 said:

it's not irony, it's the truth. The evolution of TB was becoming more like Uncharted. The combat, exploration, platforming, puzzles, the online component and even some animations are straight up rip-off from Uncharted. Before Uncharted TB had no stealth, no cover system, no set-pieces, no over the shoulder camera and no need for believable characters.

Uncharted on the other hand took nothing from Tomb Raider but everything from Indiana Jones and Gears of War.

The platforming, climbing, and so many of the specific puzzles used in UC are directly from an older TR game.

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ProtossX

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#77 ProtossX
Member since 2005 • 2880 Posts

Tomb Raider starts out on PC ANY REAL GAMER remembers the tomb raider original box where the boobs stick out

NOBODY remember it being a playstation game its pc first it was ported to friggin em psx

everyone knows its a friggin pc game we remember box art we remember her sticking her things outa at us

nobody got this on a ps1 why are u lying do u think we werent born yesterday we remember he in the store dude we remember its a PC gmae first playstation never controlled this franchise

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#78 MonsieurX
Member since 2008 • 39858 Posts

@ProtossX said:

Tomb Raider starts out on PC ANY REAL GAMER remembers the tomb raider original box where the boobs stick out

NOBODY remember it being a playstation game its pc first it was ported to friggin em psx

everyone knows its a friggin pc game we remember box art we remember her sticking her things outa at us

nobody got this on a ps1 why are u lying do u think we werent born yesterday we remember he in the store dude we remember its a PC gmae first playstation never controlled this franchise

You mad?

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FreedomFreeLife

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#79 FreedomFreeLife
Member since 2013 • 3948 Posts

@jg4xchamp said:

@Gue1 said:

it's not irony, it's the truth. The evolution of TB was becoming more like Uncharted. The combat, exploration, platforming, puzzles, the online component and even some animations are straight up rip-off from Uncharted. Before Uncharted TB had no stealth, no cover system, no set-pieces, no over the shoulder camera and no need for believable characters.

Uncharted on the other hand took nothing from Tomb Raider but everything from Indiana Jones and Gears of War.

The platforming, climbing, and so many of the specific puzzles used in UC are directly from an older TR game.

Uncharted took nothing from Tomb Raider. Platforming, climbing are in other video games too. Puzzles in Uncharted? What? I played all Uncharted games. There was almost no puzzles at all.

Tomb Raider reboot took everything from Uncharted.

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lostrib

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#80 lostrib
Member since 2009 • 49999 Posts

@FreedomFreeLife: why am I in your sig?

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#81 Krelian-co
Member since 2006 • 13274 Posts

@lostrib said:

@FreedomFreeLife: why am I in your sig?

it's called butthurt, he wants to show the world you hurt his feelings.

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Lulu_Lulu

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#82 Lulu_Lulu
Member since 2013 • 19564 Posts

Not really a good thread but you do raise an important issue.

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#83 PapaTrop
Member since 2014 • 1792 Posts

The original games were bad.

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#84 Articuno76
Member since 2004 • 19799 Posts

Yeah. It's a very different game. The old Tomb Raiders were a combination of player-driven trial-and-error puzzle solving and tactical gymnastics. TR2013 still had puzzle and traversal elements but they fulfill completely different roles, normally acting as downtime from shootouts whilst traversing from A to B, whereas in the old games the player has to work out what A to B was for themselves.

On the surface both appear to be a combination of shooting, traversal and puzzle solving, but the cerebral process of solving those puzzles and navigating around the game are totally different between the two. And that's something you can't capture in a video because it's all happening in the players' mind.

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#85  Edited By Articuno76
Member since 2004 • 19799 Posts

@papatrop said:

The original games were bad.

It bothers me that people are treating this like a dichotomy between TR2013 and everything else, when the TR franchise clearly breaks down into 3 eras:The PlayStation original formula of clunky, square-based movement, the Trilogy era (Legend, Anniversary, Underworld) which were vastly improved in terms of controls whilst keeping most of the cerebral elements of the first era, and TR2013 which switched to an TPS with an adventure themed skin.

For me the Trilogy era was made up of some solid games that felt very distinct from TR2013.

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#86  Edited By ProtossX
Member since 2005 • 2880 Posts

100% a Sony higher up made this thread or some dude who only owns ps4 or something -__-

who the heck likes playing as Nathan Drake some wannabee 90's hair cut movie star looking nobody

I think i speak for the world when i say I'd rather play as a flatter chested lara croft in adventure game than that generic movie star lookin turd

lara is a total babe a total package and i love her

nathan drake is just crap i even like the dude in last for us or walking dead games better hes just trash an sucks and sony knows it too they know ppl like playin as lara croft more

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#87 EZs
Member since 2005 • 1573 Posts

@Ross_the_Boss6 said:

That's usually how reboots go...

any example?

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#88 35cent
Member since 2008 • 934 Posts

I seen the reboot at as low as €5 and I still can't be bothered to buy it. It looks painfully uninteresting and it sounds like a poor man's Uncharted. If only they would expand on what they made with Anniversary as that game was excellent. I hope the next one is actually about tomb raiding but they have to make that would sell I suppose.

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#89 mems_1224
Member since 2004 • 56919 Posts

@jg4xchamp said:

@Gue1 said:

it's not irony, it's the truth. The evolution of TB was becoming more like Uncharted. The combat, exploration, platforming, puzzles, the online component and even some animations are straight up rip-off from Uncharted. Before Uncharted TB had no stealth, no cover system, no set-pieces, no over the shoulder camera and no need for believable characters.

Uncharted on the other hand took nothing from Tomb Raider but everything from Indiana Jones and Gears of War.

The platforming, climbing, and so many of the specific puzzles used in UC are directly from an older TR game.

man, he must be a shitty cow or have a really terrible memory. or he's like 12 and never actually played the old tomb raider games

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#90 Ross_the_Boss6
Member since 2009 • 4056 Posts

@EZs said:

@Ross_the_Boss6 said:

That's usually how reboots go...

any example?

Fallout 3

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#91 tormentos
Member since 2003 • 33798 Posts

@Heirren said:

@Salt_The_Fries said:

And it's everything because Tomb Raider first appeared on PS1, home of innovation.

It came out on Playstation, Saturn, AND PC. The pc version was the best version BY FAR.

If you actually had a strong PC back then which was even more expensive than getting a mid range or even little better PC in this days,in 1996 getting a PC wasn't as cheap as today is,celeron didn't arrive until 1998 and even then a 266mhz celeron tower was like $800 no monitor included or GPU,so it was pentiun or pentiun pro which were expensive PC to,and tomb raider with keyboard....

@mems_1224 said:

good. the original tomb raider games fucking sucked. the tomb raider reboot was the best uncharted game of last gen.

For you everything sucks i beginning to question if you have really enjoy a freaking minute in gaming....