Ultimate showdown: Nintendo vs Sega

We are talking about the game industry, not other industries. Even if another industry had earlier used force feedback and analog flight sticks, it was Sega that introduced and popularized them in gaming. Not only did they popularize them in arcades, but Sega consoles also introduced them to homes in Japan, with the XE-1AP controller introducing the analog thumbstick for the Mega Drive in 1989 and the Arcade Racer Joystick introducing force feedback for the Saturn in 1995. And the Saturn 3D Control Pad analog thumbstick controller released worldwide around the same time as the N64.

Like you said, we're talking about influence. Namco and Atari had been experimenting with 3D polygons before Sega, but it was Sega that widely popularized 3D polygons with Virtua Racing and Virtua Fighter. These were the games that popularized the idea of rendering human characters entirely with 3D polygons, which revolutionized gaming as we know it. And then Sega took more big leaps forward with Daytona USA's filtered texture mapping in 1993 and Virtua Fighter 2's texture-mapped characters and motion-capture animation in 1994.

The SCD's FMV may have aged poorly, but it was seen as revolutionary at the time, since it was the first console with FMV hardware capabilities. And it was the first CD-ROM gaming device to sell millions in the West. It generated a lot of mainstream interest in CD-ROM gaming, even if it was initially for the wrong reasons. And it wasn't even until the Saturn & PS1 released that the SCD started getting a lot of hate from the press. It was the 32X that really hurt the Saturn's sales in the West.

I was a bigger Sega fan in the days of the Genesis and SNES, but I probably supported both equally in terms of games. Also had Master System and NES before that, Nes being the favores then by a mile. Sega got more love in terms of add on as I got the CD and 32x. I tried supporting Saturn, sold it for PS after a while. Was more fond of the N64 than Saturn in the end. Didn't bother with Dreamcast. Skipped GameCube in college, when got a Wii made a rush on acquiring GC games, now on DS, 3ds, and Wii U. Sega now exists as a horrible publisher. Nintendo still makes quality games.. sometimes, but overall still better than Sega.

+1

NES/SNES were legendary no doubt and Gamecube was one of the hell of a console but when it comes to pure fun ... I think SEGA had the upper hand , specially with the ridiculously fun to play Dreamcast Games.

This isn't the definition of an ultimate showdown.

Yes but what is popular sells. Force feedback in the arcade was a means to give that feeling of something out of reach of many people. Sega went after this market and succeeded. Still an influence, of course, but a smarter business move than innovation. Bikes and Jets--two of the most popular things at this time.

And you keep mentioning joysticks. Nothing Sega did had the influence on a software front as Nintendo. Nintendos game design has a theory to it. It is like that of music. Take a game like Golden Axe or Streets of Rage and compare it to Super Mario Bros and you've got two messes compared to an organized thesis.

Sega. Most innovative game company ever. Great titles.

@Heirren: Nintendo isn't still in the game. They are just being stubborn. The Dreamcast was selling better than wiiu at the same point in their respective life cycles.

But Nintendo has deeper pockets. Wiiu is playing minor league ball right now.

The "business move" argument makes no sense. The same could be said for almost any Nintendo innovation. Regardless, if it's something new for the industry, then it's an innovation. Besides, it wasn't just bikes and jets, but Sega also used force feedback for arcade games where you control a car (e.g. OutRun) and even a human (e.g. Space Harrier). Sega first introduced force feedback as early as 1976, with the arcade racer Fonz, which also introduced a third-person perspective with sprite-scaling, an early attempt at pseudo-3D gaming (which Sega pushed further in the '80s).

On the software front, Sega's Virtua games arguably had a bigger influence than Nintendo's Mario games. The Virtua games reshaped the way games were designed. Virtua Racing was the first game to render humans entirely in 3D polygons in a fully polygonal 3D environment, with a fully rotating camera. Virtua Fighter took it a step further by rendering those humans with individual eyes, ears, fingers, etc. and introducing a character physics engine governing the way those characters react to being hit in different ways. Virtua Fighter 2 introduced characters rendered with filtered texture-mapping and motion-capture animation. Virtua Cop introduced position-dependent hit animations, including an early headshot mechanic. And so on.

Golden Axe and Streets of Rage are a different genre from Super Mario Bros, so this comparison makes no sense. Sega's answer to Mario were Alex Kidd and Sonic. Compared to SMB, Alex Kidd in Miracle World was a much more ambitious platformer, with a much larger world and a lot more varied levels and content, while the Sonic games had more sophisticated game design, with intricate physics-based platforming mechanics and multi-layered environments. Also, Streets of Rage isn't a mess, but a very well-designed beat 'em up series, especially SOR2, which is arguably the pinnacle of beat 'em up game design.

Nintendo.

I would have took Nintendo when Sega was at their fucking peak. Nowadays where Nintendo has continued to make good games, and at times fantastic games with some regularity vs Sega who while making a gem here and there, has made some shit to go along with it, and we're pretending they stack up why?

Never mind this argument: Modern 3D Games have their lineage trace back to design decisions that people learned from Super Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time. So while Yu Suzuki's career is pretty badass from an influence standpoint, not necessarily as much as Nintendo. Sega innovated sure, but they died a miserable fucking death for some good reasons. Nintendo to their credit made more consistently better thought out products, and their games have been more timeless when it comes down to it.

And I say that as someone who thinks 3D Zelda is pretty fucking lame and has always been lame.

There is nothing to compare. Nintendo made Sega it's bitch for decades until Sega tapped out

1. Nintendo

2. Sega

3. Sony

4. Microsoft

Sorry but those are just the facts.

Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time both trace back their 3D lineage to Sega's early 3D games. The entire industry adopted 3D polygons as the standard because of Sega's influence. Even Sony credited Sega as the reason for the PlayStation's 3D-focused design. Sega had a much bigger influence on 3D gaming than Nintendo.

It's subjective which games we find more timeless, but I find Sega's games to be more timeless than Nintendo's games. And I say this as someone who actually enjoys 3D Zelda.

i knew about 2 people that had a Genesis..I was one..SNES won in the USA im almost certain of this. I had one before I had a Genesis. I also had a Turbografx16. All good consoles. BUT SNES was king.

The SNES sold about 20 million in the US. The Genesis sold about 24-25 million in the US. It was very close, but the Genesis won in the US.

I feel like mario 64 and zelda 64 did 3d right more than anybody did.

Also, Everywhere I'm reading, it's saying snes outsold genesis in the states, where did you get those numbers from?

The Genesis outsold the SNES in the US. According to NPD sales data, the Genesis was the 16-bit market leader in the US for almost every single year from 1989 to 2001. The only year that the SNES managed to outsell the Genesis in the US was 1997, but other than that, the Genesis outsold the SNES every year during 1989-1996 and then again during 1998-2001.

Source: Matthew Clements & Hiroshi Ohashi (2004), Indirect Network Effects and the Product Cycle: Video Games in the U.S., 1994-2002

As for the final US sales numbers, Nintendo's final official number was 20 million, but Sega never released any final official number. However, we do have annual sales figures, and by adding them up, the total Genesis US sales come up to around the 24-25 million region.

That's BS. Mario 64 and Ocarina traced back to early 3D Sega games? Complete nonsense. There is NO GAME that instituted such an intuitive player-controller-visual relationship before Mario 64. Nintendo got it to work. Plain and simple. Not sure why you attempt to spin everything into a "sega created" this or that concept.

3D games and polygons was a movement, more than a sole developer pushing a technology. It was what arcade enthusiasts flocked to, and thus more money was put into it. I believe we just recently talked about this as well.

As far as games being timeless? On Segas front I'd their early arcade stuff is classic--Outrun, Hang On, Daytona. Sega is great. However, Nintendo puts out classic after classic. People still enjoy Mario to this day because it is rooted in a universally accepted theory, of which is very related to music. Everybody on the planet can relate to rhythm and timing and brain exercises--most of Nintendos software is related to these thins.

Not just Mario 64 and Ocarina, but almost any game that uses 3D polygons to render human characters, and simulates the physics of human movement and reactions in three dimensions, and uses a third-person 3D camera system that pans and rotates around the 3D environment, ultimately trace back their lineage to Sega's early 3D games.

What Sega was doing wasn't simply a technological push. Compared to the first-person 3D vehicle simulators that Namco and Atari were making, what Sega did with the early Virtua games is create actual human characters with 3D polygons, animate them using the first 3D character physics engine to simulate human movement and reactions, and introduce a third-person 3D camera system that pans and rotates around the 3D environment. It was a revolutionary paradigm shift in terms of game design.

I would go with Nintendo, but it's a tough match up.

Thanks for the source. I was relying on wikipedia and you know how that goes :)

That isn't the same thing. 3D rendered visuals in a game, like I said, were on the rise. The fighting game arena was growing in popularity. That is a natural progression. Second, Virtua Fighter is one of my favorite games--it plays two dimensional. I don't even think it was the first game to break the 2d plane. Virtua Fighter was a huge release, but it was far from what you claim. It was regarded as clunky and unresponsive. The entire fighting game scene has progressively gone back to the quick 2d nature of its roots.

If I remember correctly, it was SNK that really promoted all the camera moves into fighting games. I think even plane-switching was first done by SNK in one of their 2d fighters. Regardless, it was Nintendos act of incorporating the player control within a 3d space which gets credit.

@Heirren: Why does it bother you so much that SEGA innovated games?

It doesn't. I've always liked Sega. I use a Sega Genesis more than any other console at the moment. Just beat Musha Aleste without losing a life. In the criteria of influence though, Nintendo is on top.

Hmmm......Nintendo became big in gaming by tying up third parties. I'm trying to think what strides in gaming Nintendo did. I'm sure they did some things. Most companies do. But Sega was ahead of gaming. Much of what Sega tried years past is common now in the industry.

What strides Nintendo had in gaming, are you for real? Too many to list--dpad, platformers, open game design, push for more buttons, controller design, analog stick, 3d platformers, hardware expansion, gpu, branding through mascots, handheld games, touch screen games, music games, kart games, adventure games...etc etc etcd

...Nintendos relationship with 3rd party developers is certainly questionable, but the goal is to keep quality up on the console and have a more hands on approach with developers. For example, DMA Designs was a "Dream Team" member during the N64 era. They were developing an action game--Body Harvest. From what I have read and heard, Nintendo stepped in on this project and had a major influence on its direction. The form of 3D GTA was greatly influenced by Nintendo as a result of this.

I think you give Nintendo a little too much credit. Platformers for instance existed before Nintendo though that is arguable as to what criteria you use to define the genre. As did 3D platformers. Sega had Nintendo beat on that. Nintendo was not first with the analog stick. That was created during the Atari reign and then in arcades Sega had the first true analog stick for movement.

That's just a couple examples where you are over estimating Nintendo.

It's about intelligent use of the technology. I couldn't tell you the first platformer--it could be some obscure game. Not sure on release dates. Pitfall? Donkey Kong? What happened after Nintendo introduced the dpad? What happened after Super Mario Bros? What happened after Zelda? What happened after Mario Kart? What happened after the snes controller? What happened after Mario 64? What happened after Ocarina? What happened after the 64 controller? All these things were very closely mimicked by competitors. That is influence in a factual sense.

I'm primarily an Arcade gamer, and Sega assassinated Nintendo in the Arcades from the 90's on. Nintendo is awesome too.

Sega continues to publish and make the same style of games as well. Vanquish, Anarchy Reigns, Yakuza etc.

You know Nintendo built off of other companies? The dpad idea was more or less developed from arcades and other console/handhelds before Nintendo used one for some of their game and watch games (and it was cross directional I'll give you that)....but it was also being used on other less popular gaming systems. I'm not sure what you expect me to say about a list of games. I actually hated the N64 controller but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about any of that.

I think because Nintendo popularized a lot of these ideas you are giving them undue credit. Nintendo....as other companies...builds off of what came before.

Common knowledge that everyone who clicked this thread on should know about anyways. Besides Nintendo being still in the game what makes you think they're better? Also what so_hai said.

How about we change this back to when the dreamcast was out?

Easily Nintendo for me Mario, Zelda, Metroid etc but Sega has made some great games and revolutionized a couple genres them as well.

Who or what is a Sega?

SEGAAAAAAAAAAA :)

Sega wins in a landslide for me, nothing against Nintendo though.

The first fighting game to break the 2D plane was Sega's own Dark Edge, which released in arcades in 1992, just over a year after Street Fighter II. The difference was that Dark Edge used sprite-scaling, whereas Virtua Fighter used actual polygons. The first Virtua Fighter may have been rough around the edges, but just a year later, Sega AM2 delivered a 3D fighting masterpiece with Virtua Fighter 2, which also happens to be the game that introduced texture-mapped characters and motion-capture animation to the game industry (along with Virtua Cop).

Sega was already doing at least half of those things before Nintendo, including the push for more buttons, controller design, analog stick, hardware expansion, GPU, touch controls, music games, kart racing, and adventure games. Like I said before, a lot of things Nintendo gets credit for, Sega was already doing it before.

Nintendo's role in the development of Body Harvest is interesting, but it doesn't come close to Sega AM2's development of Shenmue, which was well ahead of Body Harvest and even GTA3 in terms of open-world design. Even open-world games to this day still struggle to match the level of detail, realism and lifelikeness of Shenmue's open-world.

As a kid back then I went from Sega to Nintendo back and forth multiple times. Overall, Nintendo in my opinion.

Ninty by a mile.

I thought it was an SNK title for plane switching. I don't even remember Dark Edge. Must not have been in many arcades. Looks like a mess to be honest and I love sprites. That game obviously influenced nothing as fighting games, as I have already said, retained a more popular and refined 2d form.

Youve got to be kidding on the other stuff. Sega had a push for more buttons on the controller, yet Genesis had 3 buttons. That is one more button than the mastersystem. In addition to that, the layout is poor. The thumb can only reach two buttons at a time. It is almost as if its still designed around two button games. Sega was pushing for more buttons when their own mascot game, Sonic The Hedghog, used all of one button.

You are actually going to make that claim, when the very layout of the SNES controller is still in use today? Sega and Sony released their 32bit systems with tradition digital pads. Nintendo rolled the dice and designed a console around a controller concept and put money into the software development surrounding the analog stick. What followed Mario 64? Mario 64 clones of 100 percent lesser quality.

Hardware expansion? NES had the famicom disk system in Japan. SNES was designed from the get go to have chips on carts to aid the performance of the unit. In addition to that Nintendo was serious about additions and worked with Sony on designs that would lead to the playstation. Nintendo 64 kept this same cart concept and had the ram pack and 64dd. Segas hardware expansion positive was with the saturn, which lead to them having excellent 2d fighters, etc. Other than that it just lead to their downfall--how not to do hardware expansion, essentially.

GPU? Was the SuperFX chip not the first gpu on cart?

Touch controls? You mean to tell me sega has a 100 million plus selling system based on touch controls?

Sega may have had a Miracle Piano. I don't know. What I do know is Nintendo pushed that thing.

Branding through Masconts. Yet Segas response to Mario was Sonic.

Kart Racing games. It is Mario Kart. That is what the genre is based off of. Bringing up a racing game with go karts is not what makes it influential. It is the design. It could have been Super Mario Hot Dog Racing and it wouldn't matter. It is the elements at play which everyone else copied which make the game influential. You seem confused in a lot of things here.

As a former Sega fanboy I have to go with them. The Genesis was my first console and it had the games that were more to my liking vs the SNES (a fantastic console in it's own right). Streets of Rage, Ristar, Gunstar Heros, Phantasy Star, Truxton, Strider, Ranger X (an often overlooked game)...I could go on and on. And not to mention the Saturn which I consider to be criminally underrated.

The SNK game you're thinking must be Fatal Fury. That was the first fighting game where you can jump between two planes. But it's still a far cry from the three dimensions that Sega was pushing with Dark Edge and then Virtua Fighter. And from Virtua Fighter, we got games like Tekken, Toshinden, Soul Edge, Soul Calibur, Dead or Alive, etc.

As for the other stuff, let's go through each one:

1. More buttons - Like you said, the Mega Drive controller added a 3rd action button. In addition, the Mega Drive's XE-1AP controller, released for Japan in 1989, featured 10 buttons (including 4 shoulder buttons), more than the SNES controller in 1990.
2. Controller design - The PlayStation controllers are based on Nintendo designs, but the Xbox controllers are clearly based on Sega designs (Mega Drive -> XE-1AP -> Saturn 3D Control Pad -> Dreamcast -> Xbox).
3. Analog stick - As has already been mentioned, Sega did that before Nintendo. In the arcades, Sega introduced the first true analog flight-stick with Space Harrier in 1985. And then on consoles, the Mega Drive had the first true analog thumb-stick controller, the XE-1AP, in 1989. That's what the Saturn 3D Control Pad, which released around the same time as the N64, was based on.
4. Hardware expansion - Sega were doing hardware expansions in the arcades long before the NES. And even on consoles, the Sega SG-1000 console was designed for hardware expansions from the get go in 1983. The SG-1000 had more accessories than the NES, enough to transform the SG-1000 into a PC.
5. GPU - Sega were using dedicated GPU processors in their arcade systems long before Nintendo did it on a console. Either way, modern GPUs trace back their lineage to the Sega Model arcade GPUs, not Nintendo's SuperFX.
6. Touch controls - It was Sega that introduced touch controls to the game industry, first with the Sega Graphic Board tablet controller for the Sega SG-1000 in 1985, and then with the Sega Pico edutainment console, which introduced active-digitizer touch technology in 1993. In addition, Sega's Game Gear successor was planned to have a touch-screen controller in the '90s, but Sega cancelled it due to financial issues.
7. Music games - The Miracle Piano is an interesting accessory, but it's more of a music software rather than a music game. Nintendo didn't develop any rhythm games in the '90s, whereas Sega had a big impact on the rhythm game genre with games like Digital Dance Mix, Samba de Amigo and Space Channel 5 in the '90s.
8. Kart racing - It was Sega AM2 that created the first kart racer, Power Drift, released for arcades in 1988. That's what the Sonic Drift series of kart racers were based on. And not only did Power Drift predate Mario Kart, but it also had far superior graphics. Power Drift's sprite-manipulation tech was very advanced, manipulating sprites in a way that resembled early 3D texture-mapping.

OK let me show my true colors. **** Nintendo. Sega all day! The 16 bit console race was the best! After that Sega ran away with it with the Sega CD, 32X and Dreamcast. Nintendo caught a good break with the N64/Gamecube and the rest is history.

Since that day I cheer for Nintendo over everybody. Im an OG gamer since 85' and I wanna see the OG's succeed. Sony and Microsoft can kiss my ass for all I care. Nintendo and PC till I die unless some crazy good console exclusive comes out. Then I like Sony and Microsoft. I am a gamer after all. Games>fanboys.

Because you do it first, doesn't mean you innovated it. Apple proved that with tablets. There were microsoft tablets way before the ipad, but it wasn't until apple innovated it, that it took off.