Ill give a chance to CoD this year, and wait for the next Battkefield game from DICE.
This topic is locked from further discussion.
It seems as well, aside from cloning steam (badly) they have ripped off the Team Fortress 2 drop system.
And (unlike team fortress 2) that actually has made content, much of these "drops" are simply power-boosts, with no labor what so ever. Lest we forget, Team Fortress 2 is a free game.
This game is £59.99 + micro transaction drops + £15 for 4 maps Team Fortress 2 now sits with roughly 60 maps, all of which free.
The new EA man promised things would be different.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-06-25-will-ea-learn-from-the-terrible-dungeon-keeper-mobile-game
.They have essentially applied the grind or pay to get resource model of DK.
Don't make valve look like saints though. TF 2 went f2p because sales dropped off to practically nothing
Team Fortress 2 was still in the top 5 played games on steam. It seems you are deliberately (unlike me) trying to force a bias reality, full of bias, with false fact that stain the savors and heroes of industry.
That digital deluxe BF 4 includes China Rising. Which has 4 maps, each map is about 5x the size of a CoD or TF 2 map.
http://www.ea.com/news/battlefield-3-is-free-on-pc-with-origin-on-the-house
Now On to TF 2. It went f2p 4 years after release. I would imagine most steam users who play fps already owned it. TF 2 went f2p not long after adding the TF 2 store.
No longer will you have to endure hours of Team Fortress 2 play just to unlock the game's hidden weapons, defensive items and wearable accessories. Today, Valve opened the Mann Co. Store, which lets you buy goods with real-world cash.
Update: It appears that the TF2 store is full of items priced higher than $4.99 USD. Some hats run $7.49, $9.99 and even a ludicrous $17.49. Yikes.
http://kotaku.com/5652352/team-fortress-2-opens-its-in-game-store
My friend a "big" map doesn't equal a "good" map. This is googoo gaga thinking. If we used this logic, those Call Of Duty maps people such as yourself play would be the shittest maps known to humanity (which they are).
Metacritic would suggest Valve are the greatest developer in the world alongside Nintendo while Dice barely hit 80.
"I imagine" Wonderful, but that's not an argument.
Using the argument of "oh well they sell items". Team Fortress 2, sells items for a title that costs £0 Battlefield sells boosts and content all ready in a £59.99 game. Team Fortress 2 gets additional constant and support while every single Battlefield items is already in, or deliberately taken out of the game.
I listed 60 maps. So, if we can't to go into semantics
4 maps for Battlefield 4 = £15
4 maps for Team Fortress 2 = £0
60 X £0 = 0
60/4 = 15
15 X £15 = £225
+ £59.99 for the game
+ £20 for power boosts
You failed to grasp my point about the map size. I never said bigger maps are better.
You just outright implied it, made up poop about Valve and used a bunch of false and poor arguments.
Didn't read rest, waste of time.
Sounds like a cop out to me. If my arguments really were poor you'd surely have pointed out why.
What did I say about valve that was untrue?
Response to Hardline is nothing compared to the outcry to the king of reskins Left 4 Dead 2. Remember the boycott?
It seems as well, aside from cloning steam (badly) they have ripped off the Team Fortress 2 drop system.
And (unlike team fortress 2) that actually has made content, much of these "drops" are simply power-boosts, with no labor what so ever. Lest we forget, Team Fortress 2 is a free game.
This game is £59.99 + micro transaction drops + £15 for 4 maps Team Fortress 2 now sits with roughly 60 maps, all of which free.
The new EA man promised things would be different.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-06-25-will-ea-learn-from-the-terrible-dungeon-keeper-mobile-game
.They have essentially applied the grind or pay to get resource model of DK.
Don't make valve look like saints though. TF 2 went f2p because sales dropped off to practically nothing
Team Fortress 2 was still in the top 5 played games on steam. It seems you are deliberately (unlike me) trying to force a bias reality, full of bias, with false fact that stain the savors and heroes of industry.
That digital deluxe BF 4 includes China Rising. Which has 4 maps, each map is about 5x the size of a CoD or TF 2 map.
http://www.ea.com/news/battlefield-3-is-free-on-pc-with-origin-on-the-house
Now On to TF 2. It went f2p 4 years after release. I would imagine most steam users who play fps already owned it. TF 2 went f2p not long after adding the TF 2 store.
No longer will you have to endure hours of Team Fortress 2 play just to unlock the game's hidden weapons, defensive items and wearable accessories. Today, Valve opened the Mann Co. Store, which lets you buy goods with real-world cash.
Update: It appears that the TF2 store is full of items priced higher than $4.99 USD. Some hats run $7.49, $9.99 and even a ludicrous $17.49. Yikes.
http://kotaku.com/5652352/team-fortress-2-opens-its-in-game-store
My friend a "big" map doesn't equal a "good" map. This is googoo gaga thinking. If we used this logic, those Call Of Duty maps people such as yourself play would be the shittest maps known to humanity (which they are).
Metacritic would suggest Valve are the greatest developer in the world alongside Nintendo while Dice barely hit 80.
"I imagine" Wonderful, but that's not an argument.
Using the argument of "oh well they sell items". Team Fortress 2, sells items for a title that costs £0 Battlefield sells boosts and content all ready in a £59.99 game. Team Fortress 2 gets additional constant and support while every single Battlefield items is already in, or deliberately taken out of the game.
I listed 60 maps. So, if we can't to go into semantics
4 maps for Battlefield 4 = £15
4 maps for Team Fortress 2 = £0
60 X £0 = 0
60/4 = 15
15 X £15 = £225
+ £59.99 for the game
+ £20 for power boosts
You failed to grasp my point about the map size. I never said bigger maps are better.
You just outright implied it, made up poop about Valve and used a bunch of false and poor arguments.
Didn't read rest, waste of time.
Sounds like a cop out to me.?
My friend, I do not control your comprehension or reasoning.
Ill give a chance to CoD this year,
are not people giving it chance every year? but the fact is franchise is not been good since First game (not first modern warfare)
Ill give a chance to CoD this year,
are not people giving it chance every year? but the fact is franchise is not been good since First game (not first modern warfare)
Not me. The last time i gave CoD a chance was in 2009, but the last game i really loved was CoD2 (which was far better than the first, in my opinion).
I like Hardline more than BF4. And to me it feels different enough. Also, the SP seems really great, which is a big hook for me. I always play through the SP first. Even in BF games. But I guess hating Hardline is the cool thing to do right now.
I like Hardline more than BF4. And to me it feels different enough. Also, the SP seems really great, which is a big hook for me. I always play through the SP first. Even in BF games. But I guess hating Hardline is the cool thing to do right now.
People have been hated EA for about a decade and a half.
The reason seems to stem from being cunts, I think.
If they let you mod the game this mod would have been made by the community shortly after release for free. I'll pass
This game looks like a complete mess imo. So much so that I didnt even bother with the beta. Im glad others are enjoying it though.
It seems as well, aside from cloning steam (badly) they have ripped off the Team Fortress 2 drop system.
And (unlike team fortress 2) that actually has made content, much of these "drops" are simply power-boosts, with no labor what so ever. Lest we forget, Team Fortress 2 is a free game.
This game is £59.99 + micro transaction drops + £15 for 4 maps Team Fortress 2 now sits with roughly 60 maps, all of which free.
The new EA man promised things would be different.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-06-25-will-ea-learn-from-the-terrible-dungeon-keeper-mobile-game
.They have essentially applied the grind or pay to get resource model of DK.
Don't make valve look like saints though. TF 2 went f2p because sales dropped off to practically nothing
Team Fortress 2 was still in the top 5 played games on steam. It seems you are deliberately (unlike me) trying to force a bias reality, full of bias, with false fact that stain the savors and heroes of industry.
That digital deluxe BF 4 includes China Rising. Which has 4 maps, each map is about 5x the size of a CoD or TF 2 map.
http://www.ea.com/news/battlefield-3-is-free-on-pc-with-origin-on-the-house
Now On to TF 2. It went f2p 4 years after release. I would imagine most steam users who play fps already owned it. TF 2 went f2p not long after adding the TF 2 store.
No longer will you have to endure hours of Team Fortress 2 play just to unlock the game's hidden weapons, defensive items and wearable accessories. Today, Valve opened the Mann Co. Store, which lets you buy goods with real-world cash.
Update: It appears that the TF2 store is full of items priced higher than $4.99 USD. Some hats run $7.49, $9.99 and even a ludicrous $17.49. Yikes.
http://kotaku.com/5652352/team-fortress-2-opens-its-in-game-store
My friend a "big" map doesn't equal a "good" map. This is googoo gaga thinking. If we used this logic, those Call Of Duty maps people such as yourself play would be the shittest maps known to humanity (which they are).
Metacritic would suggest Valve are the greatest developer in the world alongside Nintendo while Dice barely hit 80.
"I imagine" Wonderful, but that's not an argument.
Using the argument of "oh well they sell items". Team Fortress 2, sells items for a title that costs £0 Battlefield sells boosts and content all ready in a £59.99 game. Team Fortress 2 gets additional constant and support while every single Battlefield items is already in, or deliberately taken out of the game.
I listed 60 maps. So, if we can't to go into semantics
4 maps for Battlefield 4 = £15
4 maps for Team Fortress 2 = £0
60 X £0 = 0
60/4 = 15
15 X £15 = £225
+ £59.99 for the game
+ £20 for power boosts
You failed to grasp my point about the map size. I never said bigger maps are better.
You just outright implied it, made up poop about Valve and used a bunch of false and poor arguments.
Didn't read rest, waste of time.
Sounds like a cop out to me.?
My friend, I do not control your comprehension or reasoning.
Obviously throwing in the towel. Hardline wasn't enough to usurp the reskin king valve.
If they let you mod the game this mod would have been made by the community shortly after release for free. I'll pass
So is there a BF style cops and robbers mod with sp and mp that came out shortly after BF 2 was released?
Can see a 7/10 on GS from a mile away. This game would've been great if priced at 29.99 under the title of Battlefield 4: Hardline but nooo its EA.
Hate to say this, but I actually agree with you. I think it will get a 6/10 here on GS. I have no plans on getting this game.
It seems as well, aside from cloning steam (badly) they have ripped off the Team Fortress 2 drop system.
And (unlike team fortress 2) that actually has made content, much of these "drops" are simply power-boosts, with no labor what so ever. Lest we forget, Team Fortress 2 is a free game.
This game is £59.99 + micro transaction drops + £15 for 4 maps Team Fortress 2 now sits with roughly 60 maps, all of which free.
The new EA man promised things would be different.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-06-25-will-ea-learn-from-the-terrible-dungeon-keeper-mobile-game
.They have essentially applied the grind or pay to get resource model of DK.
Don't make valve look like saints though. TF 2 went f2p because sales dropped off to practically nothing
Team Fortress 2 was still in the top 5 played games on steam. It seems you are deliberately (unlike me) trying to force a bias reality, full of bias, with false fact that stain the savors and heroes of industry.
That digital deluxe BF 4 includes China Rising. Which has 4 maps, each map is about 5x the size of a CoD or TF 2 map.
http://www.ea.com/news/battlefield-3-is-free-on-pc-with-origin-on-the-house
Now On to TF 2. It went f2p 4 years after release. I would imagine most steam users who play fps already owned it. TF 2 went f2p not long after adding the TF 2 store.
No longer will you have to endure hours of Team Fortress 2 play just to unlock the game's hidden weapons, defensive items and wearable accessories. Today, Valve opened the Mann Co. Store, which lets you buy goods with real-world cash.
Update: It appears that the TF2 store is full of items priced higher than $4.99 USD. Some hats run $7.49, $9.99 and even a ludicrous $17.49. Yikes.
http://kotaku.com/5652352/team-fortress-2-opens-its-in-game-store
My friend a "big" map doesn't equal a "good" map. This is googoo gaga thinking. If we used this logic, those Call Of Duty maps people such as yourself play would be the shittest maps known to humanity (which they are).
Metacritic would suggest Valve are the greatest developer in the world alongside Nintendo while Dice barely hit 80.
"I imagine" Wonderful, but that's not an argument.
Using the argument of "oh well they sell items". Team Fortress 2, sells items for a title that costs £0 Battlefield sells boosts and content all ready in a £59.99 game. Team Fortress 2 gets additional constant and support while every single Battlefield items is already in, or deliberately taken out of the game.
I listed 60 maps. So, if we can't to go into semantics
4 maps for Battlefield 4 = £15
4 maps for Team Fortress 2 = £0
60 X £0 = 0
60/4 = 15
15 X £15 = £225
+ £59.99 for the game
+ £20 for power boosts
You failed to grasp my point about the map size. I never said bigger maps are better.
You just outright implied it, made up poop about Valve and used a bunch of false and poor arguments.
Didn't read rest, waste of time.
Sounds like a cop out to me.?
My friend, I do not control your comprehension or reasoning.
Obviously throwing in the towel. Hardline wasn't enough to usurp the reskin king valve.
But nothing needs justified.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-07-14-team-fortress-2-re-review
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-10-29-battlefield-4-review
The world says I am right, I agree with this.
I like Hardline more than BF4. And to me it feels different enough. Also, the SP seems really great, which is a big hook for me. I always play through the SP first. Even in BF games. But I guess hating Hardline is the cool thing to do right now.
SP in this game looks like every other military shooter but this time you are playing as Cop instead.
It seems as well, aside from cloning steam (badly) they have ripped off the Team Fortress 2 drop system.
And (unlike team fortress 2) that actually has made content, much of these "drops" are simply power-boosts, with no labor what so ever. Lest we forget, Team Fortress 2 is a free game.
This game is £59.99 + micro transaction drops + £15 for 4 maps Team Fortress 2 now sits with roughly 60 maps, all of which free.
The new EA man promised things would be different.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-06-25-will-ea-learn-from-the-terrible-dungeon-keeper-mobile-game
.They have essentially applied the grind or pay to get resource model of DK.
Don't make valve look like saints though. TF 2 went f2p because sales dropped off to practically nothing
Team Fortress 2 was still in the top 5 played games on steam. It seems you are deliberately (unlike me) trying to force a bias reality, full of bias, with false fact that stain the savors and heroes of industry.
That digital deluxe BF 4 includes China Rising. Which has 4 maps, each map is about 5x the size of a CoD or TF 2 map.
http://www.ea.com/news/battlefield-3-is-free-on-pc-with-origin-on-the-house
Now On to TF 2. It went f2p 4 years after release. I would imagine most steam users who play fps already owned it. TF 2 went f2p not long after adding the TF 2 store.
No longer will you have to endure hours of Team Fortress 2 play just to unlock the game's hidden weapons, defensive items and wearable accessories. Today, Valve opened the Mann Co. Store, which lets you buy goods with real-world cash.
Update: It appears that the TF2 store is full of items priced higher than $4.99 USD. Some hats run $7.49, $9.99 and even a ludicrous $17.49. Yikes.
http://kotaku.com/5652352/team-fortress-2-opens-its-in-game-store
My friend a "big" map doesn't equal a "good" map. This is googoo gaga thinking. If we used this logic, those Call Of Duty maps people such as yourself play would be the shittest maps known to humanity (which they are).
Metacritic would suggest Valve are the greatest developer in the world alongside Nintendo while Dice barely hit 80.
"I imagine" Wonderful, but that's not an argument.
Using the argument of "oh well they sell items". Team Fortress 2, sells items for a title that costs £0 Battlefield sells boosts and content all ready in a £59.99 game. Team Fortress 2 gets additional constant and support while every single Battlefield items is already in, or deliberately taken out of the game.
I listed 60 maps. So, if we can't to go into semantics
4 maps for Battlefield 4 = £15
4 maps for Team Fortress 2 = £0
60 X £0 = 0
60/4 = 15
15 X £15 = £225
+ £59.99 for the game
+ £20 for power boosts
You failed to grasp my point about the map size. I never said bigger maps are better.
You just outright implied it, made up poop about Valve and used a bunch of false and poor arguments.
Didn't read rest, waste of time.
Sounds like a cop out to me.?
My friend, I do not control your comprehension or reasoning.
Obviously throwing in the towel. Hardline wasn't enough to usurp the reskin king valve.
But nothing needs justified.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-07-14-team-fortress-2-re-review
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-10-29-battlefield-4-review
The world says I am right, I agree with this.
Relevance? Does this change the fact that TF 2 is a virtual hatselling store masquerading as a game? Or that CS GO and L4D 2 are cash ins just like Hardline?
If I was a TF 2 fan I'd rather have a new TF with contemporary graphics and sound fx instead of this outdated f2p microtransaction crap.
It seems as well, aside from cloning steam (badly) they have ripped off the Team Fortress 2 drop system.
And (unlike team fortress 2) that actually has made content, much of these "drops" are simply power-boosts, with no labor what so ever. Lest we forget, Team Fortress 2 is a free game.
This game is £59.99 + micro transaction drops + £15 for 4 maps Team Fortress 2 now sits with roughly 60 maps, all of which free.
The new EA man promised things would be different.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-06-25-will-ea-learn-from-the-terrible-dungeon-keeper-mobile-game
.They have essentially applied the grind or pay to get resource model of DK.
Don't make valve look like saints though. TF 2 went f2p because sales dropped off to practically nothing
Team Fortress 2 was still in the top 5 played games on steam. It seems you are deliberately (unlike me) trying to force a bias reality, full of bias, with false fact that stain the savors and heroes of industry.
That digital deluxe BF 4 includes China Rising. Which has 4 maps, each map is about 5x the size of a CoD or TF 2 map.
http://www.ea.com/news/battlefield-3-is-free-on-pc-with-origin-on-the-house
Now On to TF 2. It went f2p 4 years after release. I would imagine most steam users who play fps already owned it. TF 2 went f2p not long after adding the TF 2 store.
No longer will you have to endure hours of Team Fortress 2 play just to unlock the game's hidden weapons, defensive items and wearable accessories. Today, Valve opened the Mann Co. Store, which lets you buy goods with real-world cash.
Update: It appears that the TF2 store is full of items priced higher than $4.99 USD. Some hats run $7.49, $9.99 and even a ludicrous $17.49. Yikes.
http://kotaku.com/5652352/team-fortress-2-opens-its-in-game-store
My friend a "big" map doesn't equal a "good" map. This is googoo gaga thinking. If we used this logic, those Call Of Duty maps people such as yourself play would be the shittest maps known to humanity (which they are).
Metacritic would suggest Valve are the greatest developer in the world alongside Nintendo while Dice barely hit 80.
"I imagine" Wonderful, but that's not an argument.
Using the argument of "oh well they sell items". Team Fortress 2, sells items for a title that costs £0 Battlefield sells boosts and content all ready in a £59.99 game. Team Fortress 2 gets additional constant and support while every single Battlefield items is already in, or deliberately taken out of the game.
I listed 60 maps. So, if we can't to go into semantics
4 maps for Battlefield 4 = £15
4 maps for Team Fortress 2 = £0
60 X £0 = 0
60/4 = 15
15 X £15 = £225
+ £59.99 for the game
+ £20 for power boosts
You failed to grasp my point about the map size. I never said bigger maps are better.
You just outright implied it, made up poop about Valve and used a bunch of false and poor arguments.
Didn't read rest, waste of time.
Sounds like a cop out to me.?
My friend, I do not control your comprehension or reasoning.
Obviously throwing in the towel. Hardline wasn't enough to usurp the reskin king valve.
But nothing needs justified.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-07-14-team-fortress-2-re-review
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-10-29-battlefield-4-review
The world says I am right, I agree with this.
Relevance? Does this change the fact
My friend, this is the Fifth time (and almost in every post) the mistake of "my bias agenda driven opinion" for "fact" has arisen.
If we did go by opinion, I would still win. Since the overwhelmingly vast majority share it. This is a fruitless duel, it seems the day was won very easily.
Sadly, Hardline will prove even further, the factually made point. Bitterness will ensue and my rightness will increase.
It seems as well, aside from cloning steam (badly) they have ripped off the Team Fortress 2 drop system.
And (unlike team fortress 2) that actually has made content, much of these "drops" are simply power-boosts, with no labor what so ever. Lest we forget, Team Fortress 2 is a free game.
This game is £59.99 + micro transaction drops + £15 for 4 maps Team Fortress 2 now sits with roughly 60 maps, all of which free.
The new EA man promised things would be different.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-06-25-will-ea-learn-from-the-terrible-dungeon-keeper-mobile-game
.They have essentially applied the grind or pay to get resource model of DK.
Don't make valve look like saints though. TF 2 went f2p because sales dropped off to practically nothing
Team Fortress 2 was still in the top 5 played games on steam. It seems you are deliberately (unlike me) trying to force a bias reality, full of bias, with false fact that stain the savors and heroes of industry.
That digital deluxe BF 4 includes China Rising. Which has 4 maps, each map is about 5x the size of a CoD or TF 2 map.
http://www.ea.com/news/battlefield-3-is-free-on-pc-with-origin-on-the-house
Now On to TF 2. It went f2p 4 years after release. I would imagine most steam users who play fps already owned it. TF 2 went f2p not long after adding the TF 2 store.
No longer will you have to endure hours of Team Fortress 2 play just to unlock the game's hidden weapons, defensive items and wearable accessories. Today, Valve opened the Mann Co. Store, which lets you buy goods with real-world cash.
Update: It appears that the TF2 store is full of items priced higher than $4.99 USD. Some hats run $7.49, $9.99 and even a ludicrous $17.49. Yikes.
http://kotaku.com/5652352/team-fortress-2-opens-its-in-game-store
My friend a "big" map doesn't equal a "good" map. This is googoo gaga thinking. If we used this logic, those Call Of Duty maps people such as yourself play would be the shittest maps known to humanity (which they are).
Metacritic would suggest Valve are the greatest developer in the world alongside Nintendo while Dice barely hit 80.
"I imagine" Wonderful, but that's not an argument.
Using the argument of "oh well they sell items". Team Fortress 2, sells items for a title that costs £0 Battlefield sells boosts and content all ready in a £59.99 game. Team Fortress 2 gets additional constant and support while every single Battlefield items is already in, or deliberately taken out of the game.
I listed 60 maps. So, if we can't to go into semantics
4 maps for Battlefield 4 = £15
4 maps for Team Fortress 2 = £0
60 X £0 = 0
60/4 = 15
15 X £15 = £225
+ £59.99 for the game
+ £20 for power boosts
You failed to grasp my point about the map size. I never said bigger maps are better.
You just outright implied it, made up poop about Valve and used a bunch of false and poor arguments.
Didn't read rest, waste of time.
Sounds like a cop out to me.?
My friend, I do not control your comprehension or reasoning.
Obviously throwing in the towel. Hardline wasn't enough to usurp the reskin king valve.
But nothing needs justified.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-07-14-team-fortress-2-re-review
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-10-29-battlefield-4-review
The world says I am right, I agree with this.
Relevance? Does this change the fact
My friend, this is the Fifth time (and almost in every post) the mistake of "my bias agenda driven opinion" for "fact" has arisen.
If we did go by opinion, I would still win. Since the overwhelmingly vast majority share it. This is a fruitless duel, it seems the day was won very easily.
Sadly, Hardline will prove even further, the factually made point. Bitterness will ensue and my rightness will increase.
Those reviews proves nothing. People's beef with Hardline is that it doesn't have better graphics or any other technical improvements over BF 4. Which is the same case with the last few valve games.
Want free games with outdated graphics we have TF 2 and BF Heroes. At least EA gives us a choice of playing an up to date BF while TF fans are stuck playing with outdated graphics and sound fx.
I like Hardline more than BF4. And to me it feels different enough. Also, the SP seems really great, which is a big hook for me. I always play through the SP first. Even in BF games. But I guess hating Hardline is the cool thing to do right now.
SP in this game looks like every other military shooter but this time you are playing as Cop instead.
And you couldn't be more wrong. This episodic tv show feel they're going for is really interesting and also they've promised multiple ways to complete the missions.
I like Hardline more than BF4. And to me it feels different enough. Also, the SP seems really great, which is a big hook for me. I always play through the SP first. Even in BF games. But I guess hating Hardline is the cool thing to do right now.
SP in this game looks like every other military shooter but this time you are playing as Cop instead.
And you couldn't be more wrong. This episodic tv show feel they're going for is really interesting and also they've promised multiple ways to complete the missions.
so basically levels are replace by episodic tv shows. but game still play like any other cookie cutter shooter.
Doom 4 will have better single player. this looks like waste of time.
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