Volition: We struggled with PS3 Red Faction

Volition: We struggled with PS3 Red Faction

Friday 31-Oct-2008 9:36 AM Extra help drafted in to help it match up with the Xbox 360 version.
Red Faction: Guerilla's Associate Producer Sean Kennedy has admitted extra help was needed to bring the PlayStation3 version up to speed with the Xbox 360 version.

Advertisement: Speaking to OXM, Kennedy stressed how hard Red Faction: Guerilla is pushing the current-gen technology and then says that the lack of memory on PlayStation3 caused an additional headache.

"I mean, to be honest, we are pushing the Xbox 360 and PlayStation3 to the limits," he says. "I mean, not only has it been a balancing act making destruction work with the gameplay and making it all come together in a cohesive way that's fun but it's been a balancing act getting the game to run on the systems."

One little change and you're out of memory. When it comes to PlayStation3, there's less memory to work with. We actually ended up hiring some from Sony to help us make our PS3 version. Fortunately, they are the same. We've been able to make sure that PC, 360 and PS3 versions are the same."

Check back next week for the full interview.

http://www.oxm.co.uk/article.php?id=6810

While this may have been aimed at PS3, I took more from what they said about both consoles in general - they are pushed to their limits.

Developers have done a decent job of mimicking PC graphics with only 512mb of total system memory.

the PS3 and 360 have the same amount of RAM - 512 MB. Rafinator

Except that the PS3's is segmented.

[QUOTE="Rafinator"]the PS3 and 360 have the same amount of RAM - 512 MB. BioShockOwnz

Except that the PS3's is segmented.

They can overcome that(PS3's has ways of sharing more RAM), but it's a lot more work than the piece of cake architecture the 360 uses.

the PS3 and 360 have the same amount of RAM - 512 MB. Rafinator

Except that the PS3 can't use as much of that, because the OS takes up a larger portion of the RAM.

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]

[QUOTE="Rafinator"]the PS3 and 360 have the same amount of RAM - 512 MB. SolidTy

Except that the PS3's is segmented.

They can overcome that(PS3's has ways of sharing more RAM), but it's a lot more work than the piece of cake architecture the 360 uses.

And it has performance hits. That's why they needed to get some extra help...which costs more to make the game and takes more time. No wonder KZ2 is taking forever. If I was a sony dev I'd charge $10 extra per game to cover the costs.

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]

[QUOTE="Rafinator"]the PS3 and 360 have the same amount of RAM - 512 MB. SolidTy

Except that the PS3's is segmented.

They can overcome that(PS3's has ways of sharing more RAM), but it's a lot more work than the piece of cake architecture the 360 uses.

Let me clarify: the Playstation 3 has partitioned memory. However, it's been described as a "unified memory architecture" by Sony. This is because (and they've actually done this, I can show you the paper) both pools of memory can be accessed by both devices and data can be shared between devices in this way.

The Xbox 360 has a shared pool of memory. My understanding (PLEASE correct me if I'm in any way wrong) is that the memory can be partitioned by the developers any way they choose. If they need vRAM, they can partition it in a way that they have more vRAM. But obviously this comes at the cost of sRAM. There is always that total batch. And my understanding is that the partition, once set, cannot be overridden in real time like the PS3's can.

They both have to be partitioned, the PS3 can override the partiton, the Xbox 360 can set the partition wherever.

The really big thing, however, is that the RAM quantities actually are different because of OS reservations. The PS3 has marginally more RAM (between perhaps 50%-100%) allocated to the operating system than the Xbox 360. Where this number is, I do not know. I do know that it has been reduced via firmware updates. I'm guessing it's within the ballpark of a total 48-72 MB. It could be less, it could be exactly even, but I sincerely doubt it.

So, basically....Xbox 360 has 512 MB - 32 MB OS reservation = 480 MB

PS3 has 512 MB - 48 MB OS reservation = 464 MB

However, PS3 does have significantly faster sRAM. It's got higher bandwidth (25.6 GB/s as opposed to 22.4 GB/s) and it's got over 4x the memory clock speed.

[QUOTE="SolidTy"][QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"]

[QUOTE="Rafinator"]the PS3 and 360 have the same amount of RAM - 512 MB. stiltzsy

Except that the PS3's is segmented.

They can overcome that(PS3's has ways of sharing more RAM), but it's a lot more work than the piece of cake architecture the 360 uses.

And it has performance hits. That's why they needed to get some extra help...which costs more to make the game and takes more time. No wonder KZ2 is taking forever. If I was a sony dev I'd charge $10 extra per game to cover the costs.

KZ 2 is taking forever because Sony intentionally pushed it into Q1 2009. They said explicitly that they delayed the game because they thought the release windows of LBP, R2, and KZ2 would conflict. The game is ready. It's being beta tested right now. It's been in development for a hell of a long time though.

Despite the performance hits (I believe it's when the GPU accesses sRAM, not the other way around) the PS3 can still SIGNIFICANTLY augment its performance by having the CPU perform GPU-related tasks.

Make no mistake whatsoever...the Playstation 3 has significantly more total processing power than the Xbox 360. Yes, even on graphics-related tasks. Think the Xbox 360 can use its CPU to handle texture data by sharing vRAM and sending it off to the GPU to get applied? Think again.

Volition: We struggled with PS3 Red Faction

Friday 31-Oct-2008 9:36 AM Extra help drafted in to help it match up with the Xbox 360 version.
Red Faction: Guerilla's Associate Producer Sean Kennedy has admitted extra help was needed to bring the PlayStation3 version up to speed with the Xbox 360 version.

Advertisement: Speaking to OXM, Kennedy stressed how hard Red Faction: Guerilla is pushing the current-gen technology and then says that the lack of memory on PlayStation3 caused an additional headache.

"I mean, to be honest, we are pushing the Xbox 360 and PlayStation3 to the limits," he says. "I mean, not only has it been a balancing act making destruction work with the gameplay and making it all come together in a cohesive way that's fun but it's been a balancing act getting the game to run on the systems."

One little change and you're out of memory. When it comes to PlayStation3, there's less memory to work with. We actually ended up hiring some from Sony to help us make our PS3 version. Fortunately, they are the same. We've been able to make sure that PC, 360 and PS3 versions are the same."

Check back next week for the full interview.

http://www.oxm.co.uk/article.php?id=6810

amazingtroll

You do know you quoted xbox magazine right? ....I was just wonder because thats like quoting something out of PSM saying Xbox sucks......

or its like quoting Cliffy B....its something you just don't do

[QUOTE="amazingtroll"]

Volition: We struggled with PS3 Red Faction

Friday 31-Oct-2008 9:36 AM Extra help drafted in to help it match up with the Xbox 360 version.
Red Faction: Guerilla's Associate Producer Sean Kennedy has admitted extra help was needed to bring the PlayStation3 version up to speed with the Xbox 360 version.

Advertisement: Speaking to OXM, Kennedy stressed how hard Red Faction: Guerilla is pushing the current-gen technology and then says that the lack of memory on PlayStation3 caused an additional headache.

"I mean, to be honest, we are pushing the Xbox 360 and PlayStation3 to the limits," he says. "I mean, not only has it been a balancing act making destruction work with the gameplay and making it all come together in a cohesive way that's fun but it's been a balancing act getting the game to run on the systems."

One little change and you're out of memory. When it comes to PlayStation3, there's less memory to work with. We actually ended up hiring some from Sony to help us make our PS3 version. Fortunately, they are the same. We've been able to make sure that PC, 360 and PS3 versions are the same."

Check back next week for the full interview.

http://www.oxm.co.uk/article.php?id=6810

LordDhampire

You do know you quoted xbox magazine right? ....I was just wonder because thats like quoting something out of PSM saying Xbox sucks......

or its like quoting Cliffy B....its something you just don't do

He's quoting a multiplat developer, not OXM's staff.

[QUOTE="LordDhampire"][QUOTE="amazingtroll"]

Volition: We struggled with PS3 Red Faction

Friday 31-Oct-2008 9:36 AM Extra help drafted in to help it match up with the Xbox 360 version.
Red Faction: Guerilla's Associate Producer Sean Kennedy has admitted extra help was needed to bring the PlayStation3 version up to speed with the Xbox 360 version.

Advertisement: Speaking to OXM, Kennedy stressed how hard Red Faction: Guerilla is pushing the current-gen technology and then says that the lack of memory on PlayStation3 caused an additional headache.

"I mean, to be honest, we are pushing the Xbox 360 and PlayStation3 to the limits," he says. "I mean, not only has it been a balancing act making destruction work with the gameplay and making it all come together in a cohesive way that's fun but it's been a balancing act getting the game to run on the systems."

One little change and you're out of memory. When it comes to PlayStation3, there's less memory to work with. We actually ended up hiring some from Sony to help us make our PS3 version. Fortunately, they are the same. We've been able to make sure that PC, 360 and PS3 versions are the same."

Check back next week for the full interview.

http://www.oxm.co.uk/article.php?id=6810

BioShockOwnz

You do know you quoted xbox magazine right? ....I was just wonder because thats like quoting something out of PSM saying Xbox sucks......

or its like quoting Cliffy B....its something you just don't do

He's quoting a multiplat developer, not OXM's staff.

Out of a magazine what belong to xbox.....They could of said plenty of bad stuff about the xbox or said that the xbox version is horrible...But the magazine would never put that in they just pick and choose buddy.

How about a reliable unbiased source next time not someone who gives dead space 6 just because the won't pay for their score.

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"][QUOTE="LordDhampire"][QUOTE="amazingtroll"]

Volition: We struggled with PS3 Red Faction

Friday 31-Oct-2008 9:36 AM Extra help drafted in to help it match up with the Xbox 360 version.
Red Faction: Guerilla's Associate Producer Sean Kennedy has admitted extra help was needed to bring the PlayStation3 version up to speed with the Xbox 360 version.

Advertisement: Speaking to OXM, Kennedy stressed how hard Red Faction: Guerilla is pushing the current-gen technology and then says that the lack of memory on PlayStation3 caused an additional headache.

"I mean, to be honest, we are pushing the Xbox 360 and PlayStation3 to the limits,"he says. "I mean, not only has it been a balancing act making destruction work with the gameplay and making it all come together in a cohesive way that's fun but it's been a balancing act getting the game to run on the systems."

One little change and you're out of memory. When it comes to PlayStation3, there's less memory to work with.We actually ended up hiring some from Sony to help us make our PS3 version. Fortunately, they are the same. We've been able to make sure that PC, 360 and PS3 versions are the same."

Check back next week for the full interview.

http://www.oxm.co.uk/article.php?id=6810

LordDhampire

You do know you quoted xbox magazine right? ....I was just wonder because thats like quoting something out of PSM saying Xbox sucks......

or its like quoting Cliffy B....its something you just don't do

He's quoting a multiplat developer, not OXM's staff.

Out of a magazine what belong to xbox.....They could of said plenty of bad stuff about the xbox or said that the xbox version is horrible...But the magazine would never put that in they just pick and choose buddy.

How about a reliable unbiased source next time not someone who gives dead space 6 just because the won't pay for their score.

Well atleast PS360 owners know which version to get now. EuroMafia

The ps3 version for me...Unless a site like game spot says its inferior

Didn't they say that ps3 was more powerful than the xbox 360 while back? now their comments are backfiring on them.. :lol:MojondeVACA

[QUOTE="BioShockOwnz"][QUOTE="LordDhampire"][QUOTE="amazingtroll"]

Volition: We struggled with PS3 Red Faction

Friday 31-Oct-2008 9:36 AM Extra help drafted in to help it match up with the Xbox 360 version.
Red Faction: Guerilla's Associate Producer Sean Kennedy has admitted extra help was needed to bring the PlayStation3 version up to speed with the Xbox 360 version.

Advertisement: Speaking to OXM, Kennedy stressed how hard Red Faction: Guerilla is pushing the current-gen technology and then says that the lack of memory on PlayStation3 caused an additional headache.

"I mean, to be honest, we are pushing the Xbox 360 and PlayStation3 to the limits," he says. "I mean, not only has it been a balancing act making destruction work with the gameplay and making it all come together in a cohesive way that's fun but it's been a balancing act getting the game to run on the systems."

One little change and you're out of memory. When it comes to PlayStation3, there's less memory to work with. We actually ended up hiring some from Sony to help us make our PS3 version. Fortunately, they are the same. We've been able to make sure that PC, 360 and PS3 versions are the same."

Check back next week for the full interview.

http://www.oxm.co.uk/article.php?id=6810

LordDhampire

You do know you quoted xbox magazine right? ....I was just wonder because thats like quoting something out of PSM saying Xbox sucks......

or its like quoting Cliffy B....its something you just don't do

He's quoting a multiplat developer, not OXM's staff.

Out of a magazine what belong to xbox.....They could of said plenty of bad stuff about the xbox or said that the xbox version is horrible...But the magazine would never put that in they just pick and choose buddy.

How about a reliable unbiased source next time not someone who gives dead space 6 just because the won't pay for their score.

Single platform mags all tend to be owned by the same company.

Its an interview. If they misquoted him in a way to diminish sales of his game on PS3, they'd lose trust of ALL multplatforms devs.

Just embarasses the developers in all honesty. The game looks like garbage, in no way shape or form does it push the consoles, in comparison with say R2, Gears 2, Killzone 2, R5, all look far far better. Just because the developers make a crappy unoptimised game doesnt mean the consoles are crap.pseudocaesar

i agree, to many devs keep saying this, yet other games prove it wrong.

but , its matched up anyways, this just proves what we all know, the PS3 is more complex and harder to work with.

good thing is, there are PS3 games already out and due out that show the PS3 is a beast. same with the 360...so meh.

b..b.bbut TEH CELL a-a-...and TEH BLU RAY!Jacumov

Well I can defend Cell...

Think of Cell as a manual and the 360 one as an automatic.
Automatics are easier, and for the average person work better and more efficiently.
Manuals are hard to use, and for the average person don't work as well as an automatic.

However, put a pro driver into the car and BAM manual starts pulling ahead. It's not easy though.

Same with programmers, the Cell is a lot harder to use and when you try to use it like a normal processor it's not as good (just like if you tried to drive a manual like an automatic you would never go faster than 40kmph).

I know you can pick apart my example for the discepancies between manual and automatic transition but my point still stands:

Cell: Powerful, yet only the best can really harness that power.

Sony's biggest mistake wasn't making Cell complicated and hard to use, it was a lack of dev support. That Sony guy Volition would have had to hire should have been free from Sony. They do that and you'll notice better PS3 multi-plats.

As for Blu-Ray, well negatives + positives are about equal now...
Don't go spurting off about stuff like the read speed. Yes the 360 can read DVDs at 12x, but only the outermost 'ring' of information is read at 12x. Everything else? Less than 12x. Blu-Ray Discs read at a uniform speed over the entire disc.
(The difference between a linear and angular velocity)

[QUOTE="pseudocaesar"]Just embarasses the developers in all honesty. The game looks like garbage, in no way shape or form does it push the consoles, in comparison with say R2, Gears 2, Killzone 2, R5, all look far far better. Just because the developers make a crappy unoptimised game doesnt mean the consoles are crap.Eyezonmii

i agree, to many devs keep saying this, yet other games prove it wrong.

but , its matched up anyways, this just proves what we all know, the PS3 is more complex and harder to work with.

good thing is, there are PS3 games already out and due out that show the PS3 is a beast. same with the 360...so meh.

Thats pretty mcuh....The developer making excuses for not being a good programmer

[QUOTE="Jacumov"]b..b.bbut TEH CELL a-a-...and TEH BLU RAY!fluxorator

Well I can defend Cell...

Think of Cell as a manual and the 360 one as an automatic.
Automatics are easier, and for the average person work better and more efficiently.
Manuals are hard to use, and for the average person don't work as well as an automatic.

However, put a pro driver into the car and BAM manual starts pulling ahead. It's not easy though.

Same with programmers, the Cell is a lot harder to use and when you try to use it like a normal processor it's not as good (just like if you tried to drive a manual like an automatic you would never go faster than 40kmph).

I know you can pick apart my example for the discepancies between manual and automatic transition but my point still stands:

Cell: Powerful, yet only the best can really harness that power.

Sony's biggest mistake wasn't making Cell complicated and hard to use, it was a lack of dev support. That Sony guy Volition would have had to hire should have been free from Sony. They do that and you'll notice better PS3 multi-plats.

As for Blu-Ray, well negatives + positives are about equal now...
Don't go spurting off about stuff like the read speed. Yes the 360 can read DVDs at 12x, but only the outermost 'ring' of information is read at 12x. Everything else? Less than 12x. Blu-Ray Discs read at a uniform speed over the entire disc.
(The difference between a linear and angular velocity)

Simplistic analogy, but even so, it gets the basic idea.

Except that Cell has a peak performance....raw power, if you will, that's significantly greater than the Xbox 360's CPU. Think about a GPU versus a CPU....a GPU has much greater power for tearing through applications...

The Cell is a bridge, so to speak, between GPU and CPU architecture, and thus is extraordinarily fast when focused directly. It also is capable of broad parallel processing. It's an interesting animal. All it needs is some unique code that gets all the SPUs functioning simultaneously.

All it needs is some unique code that gets all the SPUs functioning simultaneously.

BobHipJames

translation:3-4 years of dev time. The only thing capable of using the cell it seems are games that have been in extremely long dev time, or are inhouse at sony or 2nd party devs geting tech and dollar support from sony.

[QUOTE="BobHipJames"]

All it needs is some unique code that gets all the SPUs functioning simultaneously.

WilliamRLBaker

translation:3-4 years of dev time. The only thing capable of using the cell it seems are games that have been in extremely long dev time, or are inhouse at sony or 2nd party devs geting tech and dollar support from sony.

3-4 years of dev time?

Insomniac has all their code open sourced on the internet. You can get their code for free.

Plus Edge Tools...

Really a ridiculously overplayed argument. Technically, however, getting all the SPUs functioning simultaneously is really an ideal rather than a realistic possibility...

Every developer is capable of using Cell, but on the question of to what extent, probably 1/4 or 1/3 at best for the third-parties who are intent on making multiplatform games. Even that's enough to get Uncharted or MGS4 caliber visuals. And that's clearly more than enough.