We, console players, also want to play complex games

I agree mostly, but disagree with the Freespace part. It was designed to be played on joystick and would be perfectly playable on a dualshock contoller. Playing it on kb+m would be the worst option.

Look at Diablo 3 on consoles, I thought it worked very well. So it's no problem to port them to consoles because of certain types of mechanics.

Exactly! I was exactly thinking of how well Diablo 3 translated into a console gameplay when I was making this thread.

And no to ARMA requiring KB+M. The first Operation Flashpoint was successfully ported to the first Xbox.

@Cloud_imperium:

Around 5 or 6 years old

Diablo isn't a complex game though.

@Lulu_Lulu:

And when was that?

But there aren't enough buttons. Remember you need A LOT of them. Using your thumbs on an analogue stick is completely different from using a joystick. The mouse overall gives better accuracy when controlling ships compared to an analogue stick. But a good joystick definitely beats them both.

So you want to swim but don't like having water in your swimming pool ?

@Cloud_imperium:

17 years ago

@faizanhd:

Exactly ! :)

Interesting that you phrase it that way. Extra Credits has a really insightful video on the correlation between depth and complexity. The common misconception is that "more complex = more depth". But it's actually the opposite. The ideal formula is to achieve the most depth with the minimum of complexity.

Complexity is a result of the weight of the rules needed to learn in a game, that demands a great deal of studying and memorization. The more overbearing the rules the greater the barrier to the players experience, which can also result in frustration.

Whereas depth comes out of the players freedom to explore all the possibilities of what can be done through the games system and mechanics. Through this kind of game design, the player truly has their own self determined play experience. It's in the truest sense an interactive engagement.

It really comes down to the old adage; "easy to learn, difficult to master". But hey you all should check out the video for yourself :)

Just as long as the game is enjoyable, good gameplay, and fun is all that matters to me.

@AdobeArtist:

I know... I done seen it already.

I'm tired of the best strategy games only coming out for PC (both RTS and turn based).

Consolites aren't all dudebro neanderthals. Some of us are just on a fixed income and we can't afford to upgrade a gaming PC every 2-3 years or handle the steep initial investment.

This little beauty here does away with the need for a desk when using a keyboard. Now if they could only come up with some kind of trackball that could double for a mouse.

We have had games with good depth on Console, but usually they do not sell well. Halo Wars and Valkyria Chronicles, are both criminally underrated games on thier respected platforms (ok VK is now on pc).

But they did not sell well, which does lead me to believe that most people on console does not want to play those kinds of games.

So Basicly, no one ever stops you from buying more platforms, problem solved. I do wish however that more complex games did better on console.

Heck I might even just be old, but I seem to remember how there were much more complex games on consoles further back. But the issue with hindsight is that i might be my memory failing -.-

You clearly haven't played ArmA III, it is so much more advanced and complex than Flashpoint they should not even be compared.

Right? mind numbing loot game is apparently complex here.

@jg4xchamp:

Original Diablo was also on Playstation. And no it's not that complex to prevent devs from making it playable with controller, specially when console version plays different than PC version (slower pace, dodge action, less enemies on screen, less but more rare loot etc).

The input isn't any less complex than in Torment. And maybe it is more complex, though, since Diablo requires more reflexes?

Captain Toad is a very complex game

Just play Guilty Gear Xrd, that shit is deep.

lol what a load of tripe

Did you really just claim that Total War has depth? Holy shit, dude, at least say Europa Universalis or something...

Total War is the single most shallow franchise I've ever played. Doesn't mean I don't get my kicks out of Rome (the first one, not the latest shitfest) and Shogun 2, but depth? Seriously... I know I'm repeating myself, but I'm just dumbfounded by your statement.

PS: I was a modder for Napoleon TW and Shogun 2. I made the Naval Balance and Improved Matchlock Infantry mods, among others, so before you even think of mentioning modding... just don't. I've been there. For far too long.

Total War is perhaps the most demanding strategy game on PC, and the newest game coming out (Total War Attila) has recommend specs that are equivalent to my 5 year old PC which I spent $700 on in 2010. You could buy a $700 PC today that destroys mine. The simple fact is that there are low-end PC parts today that outperform the consoles, and have since launch. Both consoles are so alike PC that optimization is not really a thing. Devs are already sacrificing resolution, texture quality, and FPS on consoles to get games to a "playable" state

It's a myth that you need to upgrade a PC every 2-3 years. There are so insanely few games that require that, and those that do have the ability to be scaled down a little bit.

You will spend more than $700 on your console once the gen is over with. Just with the online subscription alone on top of the $400 investment for a console will end up costing $700 once the gen is done with. And if you're buying games then I can safely say you're spending more on them, and if you want to expand those games it's going to cost additional money with DLC whereas free mods often dramatically change or add tons of new content to games on PC. And then things like the Humble Bundles which come out each week that you can spend pennies on to get a handful of new games... You can't beat deals like that anywhere on consoles.

If these are games you want there's no excuse to not get a PC. You're only doing yourself a disservice by convincing yourself that PC is out of your range.

Wouldn't those games get downgraded on consoles?

Then buy a PC

not as deep as the prior ones. They really downgraded the roman cancels and other elements to appeal to the casuals.

This is something that the clueless idiots at Extra Credits would say is "less complex".

Not at all. No reason to. They are turn based.

Some interface changes would have to be made and that's about it.

Yeah and those controls could still transfer to a controller without much problem. The base game of ArmA controls like any other FPS with two large deviations. The first being the multiple stances which could be solved by holding holding the stance button and pressing the d-pad up and down while pressing the stance buttons would work like any other FPS. The next would be leaning, which could be contextual like it is in Far Cry 3 or the systems they are going to be using in Star Citizen (yes, Star Citizen is not using traditional leaning and is going completely contextual to make it seamless).

Squad AI control would be the only real difficult thing and that needs a total revamp on the PC as it is. Right now controlling a squad is a pain in the ass on the PC due to the button combos you need. I've been saying the series needs a control pass for awhile now.

Smart implementation of voice controls could solve that too.

It can be done with some clever controller work. It won't be done because there is no market for ArmA on the consoles. No point for BI to port. The PS4 and Xbox One could handle ArmA 3 at like 30 fps with some hits to the graphics and the controls could be made to work, but since there is no market there is just no point. People who want military sims have a PC.

@Wasdie: I've got about 500 hours in ArmA 3 and I can use a controller in combination with Xpadder to fly helicopters, but even after all this time and an advanced profile I still need keyboard and mouse alongside the controller to be effective. There are just too many controls, even for vehicles, to make playing solely with a controller viable. I've tried. I wouldn't even try a controller with infantry because I find them just too slow, not to mention the lack of auto aim which I'm sure could be applied in a console version.

I mean think about it...you've got compass, night vision, multiple scope and zoom variations, rocket lock on, free look toggle, not to mention all the standard flight controls and vehicle specific stuff to worry about as well.

I think any version of ArmA III that came to consoles would have to be severely simplified in order to work with only a controller.

Yah but he might miss the 1 super overhyped naughtydog game once every few years!, which can just be rented or watched on youtube for the same experience anyways..

That's because in its current state it's built for PC with a keyboard. They would have to rework some mechanics but I don't think the game would suffer because of it. There is a tons of useless bloat to ArmA. Always has been ever since OFP. People forgive BI because it's a small studio and a relatively small franchise. They could strip out a lot of hotkeys and make them context sensitive (they already have the context menu on the scroll wheel that I heavily use).

I can't speak much about the helicopter controls but for everything else in the game, smart uses of context sensitive commands and a tactical overlay mode would do wonders.

Compass could be a hit of the dpad, night vision another direction on the d-pad, multiple zooms is LT + L3 clicks, rocket lock on can be automatic or done with a L3 click while in zoom, free look toggle can be a click of the R3 or holding down d-pad like in Birds of Steel (Warthunder on consoles). We still have bumpers and two more d-pad controls. For squad control hitting up on the d-pad or hitting a shoulder button could enter you into a "squad control" mode which gives you all of the controls very quickly. Bringing up the map changes the controls scheme to a more administrative kind of approach.

It can be done without taking a huge hit to the gameplay. Cleverly used the gamepads are extremely versatile and can have dozens of controls mapped and be easily accessible.

One thing that works in favor of a controller is the pace of the game. Switching weapons and stuff on the fly isn't a huge deal. You can bury those commands in a sub menu that is easily accessible as a radial menu on the HUD. The Ghost Recon series on the Xbox 360 and PS3 did a good job of this. Since there is never a situation where you need to pull a gun out within a fraction of a second it's not a big deal.

@hernandezzzz:

If TW is the single most shallow franchise you have ever played then you can't of tried a lot of games... and yes I thought Shogun 2 had a substantial amount of depth to it, the fact you created a couple of mods isn't going to change my opinion on that.

One of these days I'll talk to you about a figure of speech called "hyperbole." It will blow your mind.

Please do, and perhaps I could retort by being facetious again :).

Yea, I remember trying to map Arma 2s controls to a pad. It had like 3 different keys just for changing stances or something. Controls can def be simplified in some areas and still work.

And a lot of cRPGs & strategy games can be mapped to a pad easily. Especially turn based/rtwp ones, as you're not in a rush anyway.

Like I said before, it has more to do with the perception (or truth) that most of the ppl that play on consoles (especially in this day and age) just don't have the patience and aren't into the more cerebral or complex games.

I'm curious to how games like the new X-Com and Valkyria Chronicles sold on the consoles.

Strategy games are one of my favourite genres so porting more games to consoles, getting more exposure can only be a good thing. Games like xcom can work with a controller hell tropico 5 comes out this month on ps4. Basically if my favourite games get more exposure, more sales being on multiple platforms I'll fully support that.

All I'm gonna say is Civ Revs :P

@HernandeZzzz:

Nice opinion.

Turn based crpgs are not gameplay mechanically complex, in fact the turn based genre is the most relaxing gaming genre

The seemingly complexity come from the convoluted statistical system underlying the game mechanics as well as the ui and game presentation style

The real complex genres are high fidelity combat vehicle sim and real time strategy which simply don't work well with console controllers

A pointless dumbing down of the series that wasn't needed in the slightest.

Executives of companies sit there and make uninformed decisions thinking they know what the market is like.

shots fired

Lol, no you don't. Go back to CoD.