What defines an RPG?

Choice:

The choice to mold the character you have, into what you prefer, the choice to go certain paths, and do certain things.

The choice is everything to an rpg, I can name countless games that has stats, but have never been anywhere near an rpg.

To me an RPGs prime requirement is actionreaction. The player does something in the world, the world reacts, be kind and someone is kind to you, do something horrible and the game reacts. The other way is true aswell, it should not really be the player who always take the first action, sometimes teh player needs to be the one that reacts.

But then again it comes down to choice.

RPGS where you can not chose your own path, or your own way of doing something, be it stealthy, talky, fighty, or other, are not really an rpg to begin with.

And while it is not likely (from a design perspective) to alter the overarching story or route to take in an rpg, you sure should be able to pick how you go over an obsticle, and fighting should not always be the best option.

So examples of RPGs for me would be: Baldurs gate, Planescape torment, Fallout 1+2, Oblivion + FO3 (altho Id hate to admit it), Mass Effect (and to a lesser degree ME2 (the choices you get in ME2 are so small that I consider it more of a hybrid), Deus ex (yup more then ME2), Vampire teh masquerade: Bloodlines, The witcherand some JEPGS, Chrono Trigger to make an example.

Most people seem to think that having stats makes a game an rpg, but in that case COD4-6 are rpgs, since they have stats of sorts in thier rewards.

Games I do NOT consider RPGs would be: Diablo, Diablo 2, System Shock 2 (also more of a hybrid, since teh game is too rigid), and some JRPGs (like a handful of teh FF series, that are really good adventure games, but the player has 0 choice outside kitting out the cahracters).

All those games usually go by the definition RPG, but I do not refer to them as such, since they have a liniar strict path, and most only 1 way of solving a problem to come across, in other words: they offer no choice in the world around you, you just follow.

My idea of an RPG comes from PnP ofcourse, where choice is alsy the simple most important things, there are rpgs where you have no stats at all, just the head on your shoulders, and a dice to see sucess (altho in some cases not even that) the players just have thier choices, what they deem is the best solutions. Some people will claim that that should not be transfered over to the meaning of a pc/console RPG, but then should they have been named rpgs at all, if they wre not striving for the same thing?

The last thing about an rpg, is that they have to have a "living" realiced world in them, an rpg can not work if it is only battle, towns, npcs, peaceful envioments that also have impacts on the gameplay (like sneaking into gardens and stealing apples in the might and magic series, or spent time in a local temple learning a thing or two) are just as important. an RPG really needs this open livin world, and that is a reason why I consider alot of JRPGS and the newer Bethesta RPGs to be truely RPGS (altho light in the rpg aspect).

Ofcourse we have gone over this countless times allready, mostly in the WRPGs vs JRPGS, vs CRPGS, threads, and it always ends up in

1) alot of people do not really know where the Term RPG came from, or what it means

2) There are a great deal of diferring oppinions, that while we do not agree with eachother often makes sence from the other side of the fences

3) People still mistake Dungeon crawlers, and roguelikes for RPGs after so many years. (altho they are really closely related to begin with)

I write too much -.-

Any game can tell a story, but an RPG has to give you choice and freedom in completing that story. In an RPG you don't just play a role like in any other game - you define that role.

So a mixture of dialogue choices, non-linearity (in both environments and story) and character customisation.

is ME2 an RPG? barely. there is levelling up and skill improvements and your choices are reflected on your character also...so the player is kinda deciding how to build their sheppard. but as an RPG it is extremely limited. its a great game mind but i think its a great adventure game rather than a great RPG.osan0

If you're admitting that ME2 has both a stats and level character building system, as well as choice driven mechanics for role playing as your character, then there is really no criterie by which ME2 is disqualified as an RPG (or what you describe as "just barely"). Since the stats and levelling system is driven by the setting of the game (medival fantasy, modern day urban, futuristic sci-fi, samurai dynasties, etc...) as well as ability structures (magic, military training, technological, etc...) they're not all going to have the same setup and mechanics.

As long as the game has the levelling system, it doesn't matter if it isn't comprised of 18 stat trees, nor is the archetypal formula of STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, and such a prerequisite. ME2's stats system is merely an evolved mechanic which is a byproduct of the setting as well as the ability structure, biotics and tech. Same as with all stats mechanics of any given RPG. People are just too hung up on one particular presentation, and fail to realize that the unique styie of ME2 is simply a different approach to accomplish the same ends.

Bottom line, ME2 conists of both a stats/level character building system and choice driven role playing gaming experience. By any and all criteria it fits the bill as an RPG.

There's no one thing in particular that makes an RPG.

If while playing a game you can 'feel' the old pen-paper RPG or rogue-like qualities then it's an RPG.

Oblivion - despite what some say, is definitiely an RPG - you get that 'feel'.

Mass Effect 2 is not, that 'feeling' is missing, unlike it's predecessor.

All about storyline, I'm taking a character through a story so I expect a fully detailed storyline to follow as I go along it. Choices are just a tool some developers use to add to the story.Pearwood

There's no one thing in particular that makes an RPG.

If while playing a game you can 'feel' the old pen-paper RPG or rogue-like qualities then it's an RPG.

Oblivion - despite what some say, is definitiely an RPG - you get that 'feel'.

Mass Effect 2 is not, that 'feeling' is missing, unlike it's predecessor.

Kan0nF0dder

Sorry, but such a subjective outlook as "does or doesn't feel like an RPG" is a poor measure, lacking any quantifiable criteria like game structure and methodologies. One cannot dismiss a racing game simply because it doesn't "feel" like a racer to them. As long as it has laps, circuits, car purchasing and upgrading, it's a racer. Same with Fighters, Puzzle games, or what ever other genre you care to examine. They all have game mechanics by which they're categorized and qualified.

And in the example of my post above, ME2 does meet the criteria, regardless of whether you can see this or not, which would be nothing more than your own short sightedness, not any flaw in the game itself.

I'm going to go with a mixture of choice and stats - in that you need to have the freedom to make meaningful choices that will shape the story and the world, but these choices need to be limited by what the player's stats will conceivably allow.

Combat also needs to be determined by character skill, but if you replace the meaningful choices with lots and lots of combat, you've just got an action-RPG, which is a completely different sub-genre in a way.

*edit* As for Mass Effect 2 - the combat is based on player skill, which already suggest that it's a hybrid with the action/third-person shooter genres and not a pure RPG. Other that that, sure it has a small number of meaningful choices, and limits a few conversation options depending on your skill points, so it barely qualifies as an RPG.

Having said that, the only meaningful choices in that game are essentially the ones involving loyalty quests (which really only give you two options - succeed or fail), and most quests in the game result in you taking a good/bad option that has the same result. Your stats have next to no impact on the game, and your choices aren't significantly different if you played through the game with a different character.

In short, it's an RPG/shooter, but not a particularly good one. Still an enjoyable game, but...

*edit 2* Actually, look at ME2 this way - the only difficult decision is the last one you make, and that one doesn't impact the plot in any way, shape or form. Sure, you can choose different ways of killing the enemies by selecting different classes, but your 'freedom' (like with most Bioware games) is basically just picking between two different options - paragon or renegade - and you can go down either path and generally have exactly the same experience as someone who played the opposite path. That isn't the sign of a good RPG.

In a videogame RPG, a focus on a stat system. It's the only way to properly define a character, which is fundamental to role-play. Everything else just defines the game itself.

In a videogame RPG, a focus on a stat system. It's the only way to properly define a character, which is fundamental to role-play. Everything else just defines the game itself.

glez13

Number 1, 3 and 4 choices

majestix1988

this, at least for the most part.

any thing that isnt made by sqaure enix

This has been done to death on the board, but ROLEPLAYING games should be primarily about ROLEPLAYING not level grinding, carry lots of equipment, stats, combat type, etc. It should be about how you and your character interact with the world.blue_hazy_basic

This is such an overlooked aspect. Nice to see someone else saying it :D

[QUOTE="locopatho"] Interesting one... Could you provide an example?foxhound_fox

kind of find myself disagreeing a bit with your post. Not that those games are not RPGs, but I can think of 3 action-rpgs off the top of my head that don't allow freedom of choice. But they do have NPCs, a story line, and ways to customize your character (such as weapons, stats, etc).

Demon's Souls being one. It's a pretty linear game (altho one of my favorites) and what you choose to do minimally affects the outcome of your game (excluding the very ending lol).

Muramasa: the demon blade being another. There's a story, npcs + dialogue, and you can decide which sword trees which offer a variety of different weapons with different special attacks. But there aren't choices to make that affect the world around you. It's another game that is pretty linear.

Same goes for the star ocean (at least #3 as that is the only one I've played so far)

even final fantasy XIII doesn't give you freedom of choice, but I still consider it an RPG.

kind of find myself disagreeing a bit with your post. Not that those games are not RPGs, but I can think of 2 action-rpgs off the top of my head that don't allow freedom of choice. But they do have NPCs, a story line, and ways to customize your character (such as weapons, stats, etc).Some-Mist

I'd consider action-RPGs to be almost a different genre to 'actual' RPGs. They certainly have all of the looks and gameplay of RPGs, but they've got an entirely different focus: combat rather than roleplaying.

For example, compare Fallout 2 and Fallout Tactics. Fallout 2 is undoubtedly an RPG, with heaps of meaningful choices but also a deep combat system. Fallout Tactics borrows the combat system and turns it into a full game, but without many choices it's simply an action-RPG. I don't think you could put the two games in the same 'genre' and compare them.

even final fantasy XIII doesn't give you choices / is pretty linearSome-Mist

JRPGs are another problem, which I guess is why we classify them as their own (sub)genre.

I assume this thread (and the acronym RPG) is just referring to a more traditional roleplaying game, based on the pen-and-paper form of roleplaying.

This game pretty much defines what a virtual RPG is about. People should play it.

[QUOTE="osan0"] is ME2 an RPG? barely. there is levelling up and skill improvements and your choices are reflected on your character also...so the player is kinda deciding how to build their sheppard. but as an RPG it is extremely limited. its a great game mind but i think its a great adventure game rather than a great RPG.AdobeArtist

If you're admitting that ME2 has both a stats and level character building system, as well as choice driven mechanics for role playing as your character, then there is really no criterie by which ME2 is disqualified as an RPG (or what you describe as "just barely"). Since the stats and levelling system is driven by the setting of the game (medival fantasy, modern day urban, futuristic sci-fi, samurai dynasties, etc...) as well as ability structures (magic, military training, technological, etc...) they're not all going to have the same setup and mechanics.

As long as the game has the levelling system, it doesn't matter if it isn't comprised of 18 stat trees, nor is the archetypal formula of STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, and such a prerequisite. ME2's stats system is merely an evolved mechanic which is a byproduct of the setting as well as the ability structure, biotics and tech. Same as with all stats mechanics of any given RPG. People are just too hung up on one particular presentation, and fail to realize that the unique styie of ME2 is simply a different approach to accomplish the same ends.

Bottom line, ME2 conists of both a stats/level character building system and choice driven role playing gaming experience. By any and all criteria it fits the bill as an RPG.

Barely, can you talk out battles in ME2? Can you do stealth? can you choose other paths?

Is it the character progresion what make your Shepard strong, or is it your skills in shooters the deciding fact to succes on the game?

ME2 is barely an RPG for the given fact that much of the character roll in the gameplay is stripped away to mantain the player skill as an action gamer.

There have been countless flamewars about definitions of RPGs on this forum, none ended with any sort of consensus :) So I will just present my view and be done with it.

To me RPG is a game where stats what the primarly element that determines the outcome (failure or success) of character actions. Some player's input is of course needed, but the moment player's own skills become more important to the outcome than the skills of character is the moment the game stops being RPG to me

AdrianWerner

Agreed, to me stats, equipment, and game mechanics make the game a RPG or not.

You have stats that are directly related to your abilities/capabilities (JRPG/WRPG), and skills/equipment customization (the backbone)

i.e. Your intelligence goes up = stronger magic attacks

You can't really argue story since every game has some sort of basic plotline (amount of story's importance is subjective)

Dialogue/NPCs apply to many games

Choices in a role-playing game...that is where JRPGs and WRPGs differ (paper/pen vs. strong narrative) so again, subjective...just because you assume an identity doesn't necessarily mean you should be guaranteed freedom...you just play from that characters POV...adding artificial choices doesn't really do anything besides making you feel like you play a part in the story when you really aren't...in JRPGs you make all the choices (Turn-based battles) except during cutscenes anyway

RPG elements are customization of clearly-defined skills, stats, and equipment, and mechanics that allow the player's specific decisions to affect the game world. Games in which these elements outweigh elements of other genres are RPGs, and if there exists a certain balance, it's a hybrid game (eg, Mass Effect 2 from what I've heard) or a game of some other genre with RPG elements (eg, Infamous and GTA: San Andreas) depending on how deep the RPG elements are.

I'm curious as to why people think certain games are RPGs or not. Answer away :)

locopatho

My definition of an RPG is one in which the player assumes the role of the character. Now, 'assumes the role' doesn't mean you take over when he kicks and punches or swings his sword or whatever, but rather that you take a blank slate and make that character with your actions.

If what some people say is true, that being that assuming the role of a character simply means you play that character, then every damn video game in existence is an RPG. I mean, look at Super Mario World...I'll go to this map, no I think I'll go to this one instead and take the secret exit instead of the normal exit. Oh, hit select so I can switch between Flower Power and Cape Feather. CHOICES!!!

An example of what I believe an actual RPG is would be, for instance, any D&D game or Fallout. Want to be good? Okay. Evil? Sure. Mage? Not a problem. Want to lure that guard away and murder him? Go for it. Want to be friends with a guards or actually join their faction? Why not?

Let me put this another way: An RPG is a game where the player chooses the role. And by role I mean everything from the makeup of the character, the characters personality, his actions and so on and so forth.

So, I would not consider a game like Final Fantasy VII an RPG because the role is pre-defined...there's little to no deviation. Input from the player is minimal and non-consequential.

Without story, characters and dialogue you don't have a RPG.

Without story, characters and dialogue you don't have a RPG.

kontejner44

Funny, because quite a few "founder" RPGs have bare bones storylines and little to no characters/dialogue.

[QUOTE="kontejner44"]

Without story, characters and dialogue you don't have a RPG.

Yangire

Funny, because quite a few "founder" RPGs have bare bones storylines and little to no characters/dialogue.

some of the answers in this thread are revealing. you can tell most of you are principally video gamers, thats for sure.

all i can say is you should get together with friends and play a game of cold city or prime time adventures. AWESOME video game roleplaying is to mediocre real role-playing what eating old-ass garbage is to doing anything good.

Well technically it's a game in which you role play, meaning the whole choices deal. However, despite the technical meaning, I find that it has come to represent the managing of stats and weapons and such.

Just my own two cents since I've asked this same question before(just on GUFU boards where I was destined to have some calmer statements) I personally think that story/presentation is not what should dictate a RPG in a videogame. Playing the part, creating a role is not all that interactive in mass effect as it's made out to be. Especially when the very act of role playing is limited to the most stupidest of morality systems(ok the infamous one is worse, but shhh).

The game mechanics should dictate wether it is a RPG or not. These are videogames and there is not ONE SINGLE VIDEO GAME GENRE(outside of adventure games I guess) that is not defined by it's game mechanics and gameplay. The heart and soul of the game is what should dictate the genre. That does not mean RPGs need isometric pause and play gameplay or turn based gameplay. What it means is that the game mechanics should be about developing a character to fit a play styIe of your choosing. That to me is the most basic way of defining a RPG personally(atleast my own interpretation of it).

Different styIes of play should be based on how you develop this character and all that jazz. Sure videogames should also aim for this interactive story telling, but to be quite frank Bioware does enough stupid things in their games to kill that part of it as well.

Although I'm sure people have disagreements. So more than willing to hear it :)

Although I'm sure people have disagreements. So more than willing to hear it :)

jg4xchamp

Not to be lazy (okay yeah, mostly to be lazy :P) but I agree with your interpretation. Something I've come to realized with Mass Effect 2, and by extension quite a lot of RPGs; you're ability to form the world is still limited by the boundary allowed by the devs. For example, regardless of whether you saved the original council or left them to die, the council in ME2 will still essentially give you the finger.

Well technically it's a game in which you role play, meaning the whole choices deal. However, despite the technical meaning, I find that it has come to represent the managing of stats and weapons and such.

oldkingallant

Right. People try to apply tabletop RPG standards, but the problem is that those are not video games, and video game RPGs have changed so much that tabletop games are irrelevant when defining the modern genre. You can't just say "An RPG has roleplay" because (a) games are being called RPGs now that have zero roleplay, and it's too late to change that (b) tabletop-styIe roleplaying isn't even being done in most proper WRPGs today. If so few games are "real" RPGs anymore, then what's the use of the term as it applies to video games?

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

The world molds around your character, not your character molds to the world.

locopatho

Everything that is Mass Effect 2...isn't in a real RPG. Sorry guys but it is just as much an RPG as Borderlands (which is one of my favorite games this gen by far).

EDIT: I don't want it to sound as if I think Mass Effect is a terrible series. I was actually going to buy 2 right before my 360 fried itself. But I think games such as Mass Effect and Fallout and the like need a new name. Maybe CRPG? Chaotic Role Playing Game, implying chaos theory where everything stems off of another. Just a thought.

[QUOTE="skrat_01"]The actual role playing. In creating a character and tale defined and personalized by yourself - the player.locopatho

read this

An rpg is not a true rpg unless it has potential waifu material;)

The fact that your character has an identity different, distinguishable, and unique compared to all the other characters. For this reason, I consider Halo to be a first person shooter role playing game.shakmaster13

[QUOTE="locopatho"][QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

The world molds around your character, not your character molds to the world.

ohthemanatee

Created character role playing.

in my opinion a good rpgshould have reasonable amounts of each category incorporated into itself while mainly focusing on a certain catgory. for example Mass effect 2 had some amounts of each while mainly focusing on the shooter and story aspect.

almost every game should be called an rpg, cause ur most likely gonna take the role of someone or something

All of the above

I'm going to go with a mixture of choice and stats - in that you need to have the freedom to make meaningful choices that will shape the story and the world, but these choices need to be limited by what the player's stats will conceivably allow.

Combat also needs to be determined by character skill, but if you replace the meaningful choices with lots and lots of combat, you've just got an action-RPG, which is a completely different sub-genre in a way.

*edit* As for Mass Effect 2 - the combat is based on player skill, which already suggest that it's a hybrid with the action/third-person shooter genres and not a pure RPG. Other that that, sure it has a small number of meaningful choices, and limits a few conversation options depending on your skill points, so it barely qualifies as an RPG.

Having said that, the only meaningful choices in that game are essentially the ones involving loyalty quests (which really only give you two options - succeed or fail), and most quests in the game result in you taking a good/bad option that has the same result. Your stats have next to no impact on the game, and your choices aren't significantly different if you played through the game with a different character.

In short, it's an RPG/shooter, but not a particularly good one. Still an enjoyable game, but...

*edit 2* Actually, look at ME2 this way - the only difficult decision is the last one you make, and that one doesn't impact the plot in any way, shape or form. Sure, you can choose different ways of killing the enemies by selecting different classes, but your 'freedom' (like with most Bioware games) is basically just picking between two different options - paragon or renegade - and you can go down either path and generally have exactly the same experience as someone who played the opposite path. That isn't the sign of a good RPG.

almost every game should be called an rpg, cause ur most likely gonna take the role of someone or something

da_illest101

goddam, people just can't understand the difference between controlling a character, and playing the role of the character. The former is limited to just directing actions, mainly combat and level navigation. The latter happens when you direct the characters interaction with the people and world around him/her. Those are the moments which define the personality and attitudes of the character, what role playing is all about.

So no, just because you press the buttons to make Mario jump, Gordon Freeman shoot, or to make Kratos eviscerate a cyclopse, does not mean you're role playing as those characters.