@GreySeal9: Seriously, you're beating your head against a brick wall. The next time TGR takes an open minded look at one of his rant targets will be the first.
Oh yeah, and I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. :)
What makes people think FFXV and KH3 will save SquareEnix?
@GreySeal9 said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@GreySeal9 said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@GreySeal9 said:
@texasgoldrush said:
Of course the hatred is a vocal minority, but so it is for Call of Duty. But that doesn't mean the backlash should not be ignored. And there are reasons why VI, IX, and Tactics have far less hate than VII, VIII, and X.
Also do not forget that X-2 has a different director than X, and Toriyama has shown to involve more modern Japanese culture elements. Yes, they may have been used in a way that they are tasteless, but that does not mean the fact that Japanese pop culture elements in general could turn of gamers here in the West and that Toriyama is not mindful of it.
This is the reality of the world. While people from another culture may get another's traditional culture, for the most they do NOT get another's everyday popular culture. You are ignoring this.
Square Enix has gone in the wrong direction on this. Instead of trying to branch out and incorporate other cultural norms, they look more and more inward to their own.....especially now with Nomura, who specializes in modern Japanese pop culture art, and Toriyama.
I'm sure Western cultural bias has resulted in less hate for VI, IX, and Tactics than VII, VIII, and X (among other things). That doesn't mean that such bias says anything about quality or merit.
Also, even modern FF still has Western elements. I don't get what you're expecting FF to look like.
How about, its roots?
Been there, done that. Retreading old ground is not going to move the series forward.
Not to mention that pre-FFVII FF games were more generic in their art design. The most visually inventive games in the series were from the post-FFVI eras.
FF doesn't have a problem with aesthetics; the way it looks is praised for the most part. The problems are in other areas.
FFIX goes back to its roots, but doesn't share the same art design as I-V.
Because you go back to your roots doesn't mean you retread old ground. You are making things mutually exclusive again. And really you can retread old ground with new settings as well.
FFIX doesn't so much go back to roots as it combines classic FF with modern FF (which I guess is going to roots in a sense, but a lot of the things it does is very modern FFish). But to do that kind of fusion again would be posse.
I'm not even against looking back to some of the design principles of earlier FFs, but I don't think you need more Westernization to achieve that, which is what your argument always comes back to.
If SE fixed all of FFXIII trilogy's issues, used Japanese aesthetics for the most part, and still the franchise was stuck in a rut, I'd give your argument more credence, but so far, FFXIII's problems seem to be its own rather than any symptoms of "Japaneseness", which is why many people are choosing to give FFXV a chance in spite of its very Japanese style.
Just because many people will give XV a chance does not mean it won't be a sales drop from XIII. There are many people as well who quit the series and wrote it off. Don't discount that.
Yes, we need more Westernization. Why is it feasible. To connect with more gamers and to sell more copies. Do you have to Westernize well? Of course. But Westernization should be a SquareEnix strategy. How about older protagonists, no genki girls, back to fantasy/fairy tale roots, branching storylines, darker themes and stories, etc?
@santoron said:
@GreySeal9: Seriously, you're beating your head against a brick wall. The next time TGR takes an open minded look at one of his rant targets will be the first.
Oh yeah, and I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. :)
Too bad open minded liberal philosophy does not always work in the real world.
Facts are facts....the shift towards more incorporation of Japanese popular culture has hurt the series in the West. its not the ONLY thing, but it is just one element.
@texasgoldrush said:
@santoron said:
@GreySeal9: Seriously, you're beating your head against a brick wall. The next time TGR takes an open minded look at one of his rant targets will be the first.
Oh yeah, and I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. :)
Too bad open minded liberal philosophy does not always work in the real world.
Facts are facts....the shift towards more incorporation of Japanese popular culture has hurt the series in the West. its not the ONLY thing, but it is just one element.
You haven't provided evidence of this.
@GreySeal9 said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@santoron said:
@GreySeal9: Seriously, you're beating your head against a brick wall. The next time TGR takes an open minded look at one of his rant targets will be the first.
Oh yeah, and I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. :)
Too bad open minded liberal philosophy does not always work in the real world.
Facts are facts....the shift towards more incorporation of Japanese popular culture has hurt the series in the West. its not the ONLY thing, but it is just one element.
You haven't provided evidence of this.
Those reviled FFXIII characters for example and their quirks, Serah's "age" regarding Snow, the dialogue, the killing God story (I have seen this many times in JRPGs). There is evidence everywhere you look. Lightning Returns is a heinous example.
And seriously, you have not saw the rise of bashing of JRPG characteristics in regards to plots and characters over this last generation? And FFXIII conforms to these characteristics and is torn apart for it? And Toriyama for a fact, doubles down on these elements. Vanille and Hope were completely reviled. they are easily manga cliches
@texasgoldrush said:
@GreySeal9 said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@santoron said:
@GreySeal9: Seriously, you're beating your head against a brick wall. The next time TGR takes an open minded look at one of his rant targets will be the first.
Oh yeah, and I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. :)
Too bad open minded liberal philosophy does not always work in the real world.
Facts are facts....the shift towards more incorporation of Japanese popular culture has hurt the series in the West. its not the ONLY thing, but it is just one element.
You haven't provided evidence of this.
Those reviled FFXIII characters for example and their quirks, Serah's "age" regarding Snow, the dialogue, the killing God story (I have seen this many times in JRPGs). There is evidence everywhere you look. Lightning Returns is a heinous example.
And seriously, you have not saw the rise of bashing of JRPG characteristics in regards to plots and characters over this last generation? And FFXIII conforms to these characteristics and is torn apart for it? And Toriyama for a fact, doubles down on these elements. Vanille and Hope were completely reviled. they are easily manga cliches
You are simply ranting about the Japanese things you don't like about the FFXIII trilogy. Where is your evidence (meaning links and sources; something outside of your own opinions/observations) that this "incorporation of Japanese culture" has hurt in the series in the West?
FF hasn't been truly amazing since 8
@texasgoldrush said:
Because honestly, these games look like SquareEnix does not get it.
FFXV not only looks to go completely away from the series roots, it looks to rehash characters and art from past FF titles like FFVII. Really, a character looks like Cloud. Nevermind we have a poster boy broody emo JRPG protagonist. Looks like another off the rails storyline just like XIII and its sequels.
This may be the game to kill the series in the West...hell, it looks like it wasn't even made for the West, a bad move considering SquareEnix needs the West. Nevermind development hell, so look for a chopped up product.
As for Kingdom Hearts, really, I like Disney, but Kingdom Hearts sucks. Its a horrendous franchise all brought by a bunch of writers who really do not get why Disney movies work. Piss poor writing, convoluted wacky nonsensical plots that do not fit Disney at all, FF characters that do not mix with Disney (FFVII's especially), while ignoring FF characters that fit seamlessly (FFIV, FFVI, and especially FFIX), and complete rehashes of the plot of Disney films(Hunchback of Notre Dame for example in the 3ds game). Why do people actually like these games? If you look past the Disney characters, its a poor written series with average gameplay.
But nope, lets get excited for the next KHs, lets have the developers throw Frozen in there and completely miss the point on why that movie so popular.
Sorry, its hard to get behind the future of Square Enix. The great designers like Sakaguchi and Matsuno are gone, we are left with Toriyama and Nomura, who are killing the FF franchise and the company. And no, readjusting their focus isn't going to help. They need to get rid of their lead developers and have someone else reboot the Final Fantasy series, going back to its roots but with fresh new storytelling and scenario design.
god, you're still around.
@GreySeal9 said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@GreySeal9 said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@santoron said:
@GreySeal9: Seriously, you're beating your head against a brick wall. The next time TGR takes an open minded look at one of his rant targets will be the first.
Oh yeah, and I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. :)
Too bad open minded liberal philosophy does not always work in the real world.
Facts are facts....the shift towards more incorporation of Japanese popular culture has hurt the series in the West. its not the ONLY thing, but it is just one element.
You haven't provided evidence of this.
Those reviled FFXIII characters for example and their quirks, Serah's "age" regarding Snow, the dialogue, the killing God story (I have seen this many times in JRPGs). There is evidence everywhere you look. Lightning Returns is a heinous example.
And seriously, you have not saw the rise of bashing of JRPG characteristics in regards to plots and characters over this last generation? And FFXIII conforms to these characteristics and is torn apart for it? And Toriyama for a fact, doubles down on these elements. Vanille and Hope were completely reviled. they are easily manga cliches
You are simply ranting about the Japanese things you don't like about the FFXIII trilogy. Where is your evidence (meaning links and sources; something outside of your own opinions/observations) that this "incorporation of Japanese culture" has hurt in the series in the West?
"You are simply ranting about the Japanese things you don't like about the FFXIII trilogy"
Wrong....I am voicing common criticisms of the trilogy. They are not just my opinion. Go to the many reviews or the message boards. Why do they have to be articles?
--------
And some in Japan actually believe that FFXV may go too far from its roots.
http://kotaku.com/why-some-in-japan-arent-thrilled-with-final-fantasy-xv-513046601
How about alienating both the West and Japan?
Hmm. I guess everyone is lashing out at the OP due to his history, but I actually agree with his initial post.
FFXIII broke my faith in SE. I didn't buy any of the follow up games and I have zero interest in FFXV going off what little we've seen. I would be shocked if the game turns out worth while.
As for KH, I never thought it was a good series to begin with so no point in getting into that.
@ConanTheStoner said:
Hmm. I guess everyone is lashing out at the OP due to his history, but I actually agree with his initial post.
FFXIII broke my faith in SE. I didn't buy any of the follow up games and I have zero interest in FFXV going off what little we've seen. I would be shocked if the game turns out worth while.
As for KH, I never thought it was a good series to begin with so no point in getting into that.
They lash out at me because they can't see that I may be right and that what makes the uncomfortable. Nevermind they misread my arguments.
Its funny, I never said I even hated modern Japanese popular culture or that games should stop using it. But nope, I am accused of being biased.
TGR, you're accused of being biased because you have demonstrated a long history of bias in this forum. It's funny, take a look at the responses from longtime forum posters on seeing your latest "back from the dead tirade." Perhaps a healthy look in the mirror could help you identify what others familiar with you see so clearly?
In any case, you have failed to bring the substantial evidence that you claim is out there that many others share this kooky point of view. This is your discussion, it's your claims, it's time to start citing... And judging from the types of citations you're alluding to (message board posts, user reviews, with little to no professionally written critiques) you're going to need a LOT of them to even make your case plausible.
I'll give you credit for tenacity. You never fail to rebut any critiques of your latest kooky tirade. But you're spinning tires now. Without a healthy dose of citations to back your claims, I think it's time to look for a new rant.
What will save them are some of the games they publish that are not FF.
Diablo 3, Tomb Raider, Bravely Second, COD:Ghost, Deus Ex, Skylanders stuff.
FF went from good to bad. Goodwill isn't an infinite supply. They don't know where to take the series, but maybe they'll get lucky?
@KungfuKitten said:
What will save them are some of the games they publish that are not FF.
Diablo 3, Tomb Raider, Bravely Second, COD:Ghost, Deus Ex, Skylanders stuff.
FF went from good to bad. Goodwill isn't an infinite supply. They don't know where to take the series, but maybe they'll get lucky?
All they'd have to do is look back on their past titles that people loved. The stuff that had them on top back in the day. Not to copy those titles, but to have a good look at what made them work and then build upon that foundation. There was still plenty of room for growth and evolution with their old FF formula.
Obviously designing a great game is much more involved than that, but at least they'd have a frame of reference. Better than trying all this different for the sake of being different crap and hoping the gamble pays off.
@santoron said:
TGR, you're accused of being biased because you have demonstrated a long history of bias in this forum. It's funny, take a look at the responses from longtime forum posters on seeing your latest "back from the dead tirade." Perhaps a healthy look in the mirror could help you identify what others familiar with you see so clearly?
In any case, you have failed to bring the substantial evidence that you claim is out there that many others share this kooky point of view. This is your discussion, it's your claims, it's time to start citing... And judging from the types of citations you're alluding to (message board posts, user reviews, with little to no professionally written critiques) you're going to need a LOT of them to even make your case plausible.
I'll give you credit for tenacity. You never fail to rebut any critiques of your latest kooky tirade. But you're spinning tires now. Without a healthy dose of citations to back your claims, I think it's time to look for a new rant.
What bias? Sorry, I am accused of bias because people here are complete morons. If they actually see my posts, they would know that I actually like many JRPGs, especially really Japanese ones like Suikoden II and have great respect for SMT. But nope, I say something they don't like, and their idiocy, they say I am biased.
Hint: Its ONLY Final Fantasy that I say needs to be Westernized or more catered to the West. Why? Because catering to the West worked for the series in the past (FF VI).
Why do I have to cite...it is known that the series has gotten more modern Japanese in its style. Toriyama (unwittingly) and Nomura (pretty willingly) as directors. Vaan forced to be the protagonist over Basch and Ashe (whom Matsuno wanted as protagonists for FFXII), to cater to the Japanese market, the shift from fantasy to a more modern sci fi settings, going from elegant traditional style Japanese character designs of Amano to Nomura's modern Japanese style, the lesser freedom to westernize the translations (the translation for XIII is a whole lot worse than XII). And the backlash to these elements this generation by western gamers is well known.
Sorry, they just don't like that I have to say that Final fantasy has gotten too modern Japanese, or that the Japanese elements in Kingdom Hearts actually clashes with Disney's western elements even undermining the films and their themes. Nevermind I just posted an article on Japanese gamers themselves complaining about this direction FFXV is going in. So this direction may actually be way too close to their culture for comfort.
Not aiming at the west will be a god send. They aren't western. Japanese companies aiming west always fail miserably for the simple fact that they aren't western. Until the West decides to abandon it's games and exclusively make Japanese titles, I don't want Japan abandoning it's games to make western titles.
This whole one valid type of game thing needs to die. Variety is not a bad thing.
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