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[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"][QUOTE="Makari"] Usually more like business/enterprise purchases make the software world go 'round, and the companies more or less completely give up on individual users being reliable. Speaking as to people like Microsoft, Adobe, etc.Makari
Here read this...
http://evernerve.com/2008/01/09/software-piracy-is-good-for-you-and-for-bill-gates/
Eastern Europe.And they don't count?
STALKER crossing 2mln also happened over a year ago. So no, most likely STALKER indeed has outsold Crysis, that's the only conclusion we can make from the data we have.That's likely less that Crysis! (....) Crossing 1 million happened a year and a half ago at this point.
Makari
What's more, both Crysis and STALKER outsold UT3 by a large margin, they also outsold QuakeWars. heck...even PC Bioshock sold over 1mln copies, which is definitly more than QW and UT3. So the details aren't important for this argument: it still means SP games outsell the hell out of MP centered ones on PC.
And it makes sense...I mean...how many MP games can one play? Nobody plays more than couple at the same time, they simply occupy much more of gamers' time than SP ones, especialy since nowadays most of big mods are also MP-centric. I doubt many gamers buy more MP games than SP centric ones
That doesn't even make any sense. Software is a product that needs buyers to support future investments. It isn't made magically.[QUOTE="dc337"]
[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]
From what I've heard, piracy made the software world go round.
Bebi_vegeta
And the word gets around how this product is good or not... makes perfect sense.
http://evernerve.com/2008/01/09/software-piracy-is-good-for-you-and-for-bill-gates/
http://www.methylblue.com/blog/software-piracy-not-always-bad/
If the goal is marketshare for something like an operating system then piracy can have its benefits.Huh...what? While I recognize that piracy is a big problem this sentence is ridiculous. China is one of the most pirate-heavy country in the world and yet it has absolutely huge software market.
Are you going to deny that some parts of Asia do not have a software market because piracy rates are too high?dc337
Russia and China are warez stronholds, but even there the sales of legal games grow by 30-50% each year. So while piracy is a big problem, it's not killing PC market, it's just slowing it's growth
[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]
[QUOTE="dc337"] That doesn't even make any sense. Software is a product that needs buyers to support future investments. It isn't made magically.
dc337
And the word gets around how this product is good or not... makes perfect sense.
http://evernerve.com/2008/01/09/software-piracy-is-good-for-you-and-for-bill-gates/
http://www.methylblue.com/blog/software-piracy-not-always-bad/
If the goal is marketshare for something like an operating system then piracy can have its benefits.I never said Piracy was a good thing... But to deny it's only happening on the PC is crazy.
Do I need to link about the billions lost on the Nintendo DS? Why are you never talking about Piracy in general and always the PC?
Eastern Europe.[QUOTE="Makari"][QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]
Here read this...
http://evernerve.com/2008/01/09/software-piracy-is-good-for-you-and-for-bill-gates/
Bebi_vegeta
And they don't count?
Actually yeah, they don't count. AFAIK they even still used Starforce and the like out there, many big software companies avoid the area and give it zero support, so as far as they're concerned certain areas might as well not be a market. When the only option costs more money than most people have, of course they're going to turn to piracy. It's similar in parts of Asia, where getting a legit Windows key costs something like $400USD.[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"][QUOTE="Makari"] Eastern Europe.Makari
And they don't count?
Actually yeah, they don't count. AFAIK they even still used Starforce and the like out there, many big software companies avoid the area and give it zero support, so as far as they're concerned certain areas might as well not be a market. When the only option costs more money than most people have, of course they're going to turn to piracy. It's similar in parts of Asia, where getting a legit Windows key costs something like $400USD.Right...
Actually yeah, they don't count. AFAIK they even still used Starforce and the like out there, many big software companies avoid the area and give it zero support, so as far as they're concerned certain areas might as well not be a market. When the only option costs more money than most people have, of course they're going to turn to piracy. It's similar in parts of Asia, where getting a legit Windows key costs something like $400USD.Makari
You clearly don't know what your talking about.
You should know that regardless of area you can still get support through ONLINE updates.
400$ in Asia? Its still the same 100$ :| Not to mention a LOT of software and GAMES are much cheaper. It is purposely done that way to increase chances of sales and to combat piracy. Games in Asia are only 30-40$ with other software being cheaper than their international counterparts. With piracy a big problem in Asia you'd think that software companies would have done something to help combat it now wouldn't you? (cheaper software being part of the plan)
[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]
[QUOTE="dc337"] That doesn't even make any sense. Software is a product that needs buyers to support future investments. It isn't made magically.
dc337
And the word gets around how this product is good or not... makes perfect sense.
http://evernerve.com/2008/01/09/software-piracy-is-good-for-you-and-for-bill-gates/
http://www.methylblue.com/blog/software-piracy-not-always-bad/
If the goal is marketshare for something like an operating system then piracy can have its benefits.[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"][QUOTE="Makari"] Eastern Europe.Makari
And they don't count?
Actually yeah, they don't count. AFAIK they even still used Starforce and the like out there, many big software companies avoid the area and give it zero support, so as far as they're concerned certain areas might as well not be a market. When the only option costs more money than most people have, of course they're going to turn to piracy. It's similar in parts of Asia, where getting a legit Windows key costs something like $400USD.When it comes to PCgaming Eastern Europe gets more support from software companies than USA doesActually yeah, they don't count. AFAIK they even still used Starforce and the like out there, many big software companies avoid the area and give it zero support, so as far as they're concerned certain areas might as well not be a market. When the only option costs more money than most people have, of course they're going to turn to piracy. It's similar in parts of Asia, where getting a legit Windows key costs something like $400USD.When it comes to PCgaming Eastern Europe gets more support from software companies than USA does The article this guy quoted is talking about software software, not gaming.[QUOTE="Makari"][QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]
And they don't count?
AdrianWerner
And yeah, the one leg up I have on these people when I say unpopular things is that I actually got to work in the industry and got to experience the stance on certain regions firsthand. Until a couple years ago, they were essentially considered a wasteland to the point where a physical presence in certain countries was being actively avoided entirely because they were seen as just a gateway to lose more software to piracy. Disagree with the methodology all you want, but the important part is that what I'm talking about was just the way things were.
Whatever happened there as far as the results of the company's actions... yeah, I wouldn't be surprised seeing piracy as the primary option as far as people actually getting to use the software. Hell, IMO Adobe does a similar thing even in the US with Photoshop. As long as they remain the de facto standard, everybody's going to do whatever it takes to learn it. I didn't have enough money to even get it through my college, so it's one of those programs that I've simply never had a chance to use myself. :)
When it comes to PCgaming Eastern Europe gets more support from software companies than USA does The article this guy quoted is talking about software software, not gaming.[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]
[QUOTE="Makari"] Actually yeah, they don't count. AFAIK they even still used Starforce and the like out there, many big software companies avoid the area and give it zero support, so as far as they're concerned certain areas might as well not be a market. When the only option costs more money than most people have, of course they're going to turn to piracy. It's similar in parts of Asia, where getting a legit Windows key costs something like $400USD.Makari
And yeah, the one leg up I have on these people when I say unpopular things is that I actually got to work in the industry and got to experience the stance on certain regions firsthand. Until a couple years ago, they were essentially considered a wasteland to the point where a physical presence in certain countries was being actively avoided entirely because they were seen as just a gateway to lose more software to piracy. Disagree with the methodology all you want, but the important part is that what I'm talking about was just the way things were.
Whatever happened there as far as the results of the company's actions... yeah, I wouldn't be surprised seeing piracy as the primary option as far as people actually getting to use the software. Hell, IMO Adobe does a similar thing even in the US with Photoshop. As long as they remain the de facto standard, everybody's going to do whatever it takes to learn it. I didn't have enough money to even get it through my college, so it's one of those programs that I've simply never had a chance to use myself. :)
"Untill a couple years ago"? THat's way overblown. Eastern Europe had a normal nongaming software market at least for decade. What you describe was true for early 90s and in some places late 90s, but it's been a long long time since it ended.
Also, it's not all round bad situation. Lack of support from big western software companies in early 90s has caused local companies to flourish, which they couldn't do if faced with western competition.
Eastern Europe is very big software market now and there's no way it would have been even 20% as big as it is now if it wasn't for piracy
[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]"Untill a couple years ago"? THat's way overblown. Eastern Europe had a normal nongaming software market at least for decade. What you describe was true for early 90s and in some places late 90s, but it's been a long long time since it ended. Also, it's not all round bad situation. Lack of support from big western software companies in early 90s has caused local companies to flourish, which they couldn't do if faced with western competition. Eastern Europe is very big software market now and there's no way it would have been even 20% as big as it is now if it wasn't for piracyMakariI'm talking around 2005. In the late 90's... hell, I was still in school and couldn't afford my own console. Again, I'm just saying the way things were. You can wish it wasn't that way before all you want, but it's just the truth. I have no personal investment in the success or failure of, say, Ukraine or Cambodia as a software market - I just enjoy sharing tidbits that most people wouldn't otherwise have heard about. I know for a fact that physical offices in some countries were still being shut down a half-decade ago because the bigwigs felt that they were making it too easy to lose software via thaose locations. That's changed now, in part due to some amazing enforcement cooperation with the higher-ups, and that's awesome.So you take annecdotal evidence from one country (and one extremely poor and unstable at that time, 2005 was when orange revolution was happening) and based on that you try to pass judgment on the whole large region? That's not very...erm...smart. You mentioned Cambodia, so I will use this as an example, what you wrote is like saying Asia doesn't have a normal software market because some companies pulled out of Cambodia
That's not very...erm...smart. All big eastern european countries had normal healthy software markets for over a decade. You mentioned Cambodia, so I will use this as an example, what you wrote is like saying Asia doesn't have a normal software market because some companies pulled out of CambodiaAdrianWerner
China and Russia piracy rates
http://www.chinatechnews.com/2009/05/14/9758-bsa-software-piracy-rate-down-to-80-in-china
The real question is: Do you want the game warez scene to migrate to Xbox360? Spreading the chipping methods by the word of mouth to the milked ignorant casual consolites? If the big budget 3rd parties abandon the PC dont be suprised to see Xbox360 games hit 300k downloads on a single torrent tracker. Milked ignorant casual consolites? I think you mean paying customers that support the industry, something that the high end section of pc gaming could use a lot more of.[QUOTE="dc337"]
If the goal is to sell copies to cover the development costs then piracy is harmful.
Are you going to deny that some parts of Asia do not have a software market because piracy rates are too high?
Pirates are not doing game developers a favor. Why people like you defend parasites of a industry that provides us with games is the real question.True_Gamer_
I also think a majority of console gamers would rather use rentals or gamefly even if they had the option of pirating. With the pc is it just too easy and open. And as the Epic guy pointed out the people that know how to build a pc usually know how pirate. There's certainly a culture of warez that goes with pc gaming. A lot of people show their friends how to build a gaming pc and then just copy the games over. With consoles people buy them at the store and don't have the salesmen telling them how to get pirated games.
The real question is: Do you want the game warez scene to migrate to Xbox360? Spreading the chipping methods by the word of mouth to the milked ignorant casual consolites? If the big budget 3rd parties abandon the PC dont be suprised to see Xbox360 games hit 300k downloads on a single torrent tracker. Milked ignorant casual consolites? I think you mean paying customers that support the industry, something that the high end section of pc gaming could use a lot more of.[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"]
[QUOTE="dc337"]
If the goal is to sell copies to cover the development costs then piracy is harmful.
Are you going to deny that some parts of Asia do not have a software market because piracy rates are too high?
Pirates are not doing game developers a favor. Why people like you defend parasites of a industry that provides us with games is the real question.dc337
I also think a majority of console gamers would rather use rentals or gamefly even if they had the option of pirating. With the pc is it just too easy and open. And as the Epic guy pointed out the people that know how to build a pc usually know how pirate. There's certainly a culture of warez that goes with pc gaming. A lot of people show their friends how to build a gaming pc and then just copy the games over. With consoles people buy them at the store and don't have the salesmen telling them how to get pirated games.
And what about the DS or PSP?
So you take annecdotal evidence from one country (and one extremely poor and unstable at that time, 2005 was when orange revolution was happening) and based on that you try to pass judgment on the whole large region? That's not very...erm...smart. You mentioned Cambodia, so I will use this as an example, what you wrote is like saying Asia doesn't have a normal software market because some companies pulled out of CambodiaAdrianWernerTake all your "you"s and replace them with "software companies." I'm talking about a gaming company in particular in my example, but this wasn't my stance, this was theirs. Tada. Again, you don't have much to debate against - this is history. This is what already happened. Disagree with the direction all you want, but it's what was being done.
Huh...what? While I recognize that piracy is a big problem this sentence is ridiculous. China is one of the most pirate-heavy country in the world and yet it has absolutely huge software market.[QUOTE="dc337"]
Are you going to deny that some parts of Asia do not have a software market because piracy rates are too high?AdrianWerner
Russia and China are warez stronholds, but even there the sales of legal games grow by 30-50% each year. So while piracy is a big problem, it's not killing PC market, it's just slowing it's growth
I don't think thats fair to say, sure they would have more sales if anti-piracy measures were strictly enforced, but that wouldn't mean more profit.
Why?
Well the software developers are using different methods to make money through ads through games that require subscriptions etc.
So I would argue this evolving model is not only better for the companies profit margins, but better for society as a whole.
[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]So you take annecdotal evidence from one country (and one extremely poor and unstable at that time, 2005 was when orange revolution was happening) and based on that you try to pass judgment on the whole large region? That's not very...erm...smart. You mentioned Cambodia, so I will use this as an example, what you wrote is like saying Asia doesn't have a normal software market because some companies pulled out of CambodiaMakariTake all your "you"s and replace them with "software companies." I'm talking about a gaming company in particular in my example, but this wasn't my stance, this was theirs. Tada. Again, you don't have much to debate against - this is history. This is what already happened. Disagree with the direction all you want, but it's what was being done.It was done by some random company in one single country, that's all that was done. You're trying to bring a single story and replace the history of a whole region with it. As nice anecdote you did well, as a way of describing the whole region, you had no argument
[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]That's not very...erm...smart. All big eastern european countries had normal healthy software markets for over a decade. You mentioned Cambodia, so I will use this as an example, what you wrote is like saying Asia doesn't have a normal software market because some companies pulled out of Cambodia
dc337
China and Russia piracy rates
http://www.chinatechnews.com/2009/05/14/9758-bsa-software-piracy-rate-down-to-80-in-china
Nobody is denying piracy is a problem (well..nobody sane at least), but it's far from fatal one, as despite it the sales are growing fast in the most warez-happy countries
Piracy isn't stealing, it's copyright infringement. They're different things. You're taking someone's work without paying for it. That's theft. "The phonorecords in question were not "stolen, converted or taken by fraud" for purposes of [section] 2314. The section's language clearly contemplates a physical identity between the items unlawfully obtained and those eventually transported, and hence some prior physical taking of the subject goods. Since the statutorily defined property rights of a copyright holder have a character distinct from the possessory interest of the owner of simple "goods, wares, [or] merchandise," interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The infringer of a copyright does not assume physical control over the copyright nor wholly deprive its owner of its use." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling_v._United_States_%281985%29[QUOTE="jeffwulf"][QUOTE="NightmareCV"] I understand what you're saying, but there is no truly rational way to speak about piracy when money is being lost. Sure it might sound petty in the case of COD4, but IW didn't put in all the time and effort just to have thousands of people steal it. For the developers and publishers piracy is irrational. Think of it from their perspective, but try not to look too hard at your bank account, and try to see through their eyes these games being stolen that you just worked so hard to make.dc337
"The phonorecords in question were not "stolen, converted or taken by fraud" for purposes of [section] 2314. The section's language clearly contemplates a physical identity between the items unlawfully obtained and those eventually transported, and hence some prior physical taking of the subject goods. Since the statutorily defined property rights of a copyright holder have a character distinct from the possessory interest of the owner of simple "goods, wares, [or] merchandise," interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The infringer of a copyright does not assume physical control over the copyright nor wholly deprive its owner of its use." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling_v._United_States_%281985%29jeffwulf
1.) So people can take someone elses work without giving said person payment for its use? Sounds messed up to me unless its creator created it for the sole purpose of being freely distributed.
2.) Does this mean that you can download a game online as long as you arnt the one who posted it?
3.) Is that saying that if you said that it was meant for [insert whatever is legal] you could get away with stealing every game by downloading it? I wonder what that would be because I have no idea. Probably has something to do with my next point.
4.) This part was interesting, I think it tries to separate the 'infringer' and the 'owner'. Meaning that if you are the owner of something that isnt copyrighted you would be alright with the law as long as you were not also the infringer. (the person who actually stole it and made it downloadable.)
I find it funny how theft can be justified. If you dont pay for it you stole it.
So...if I were to sneak into your home and sleep there while you were out on a trip and then leave before you came back...using your logic it means I've stolen your house, since I didn't pay for sleeping in it.If you dont pay for it you stole it.
Trmpt
Or if I were to sneak into a concert without a ticket....it means I've stolen the concert.
Piracy isn't theft, it is a crime and it is moraly wrong, but it's a different type of crime.
So...if I were to sneak into your home and sleep there while you were out on a trip and then leave before you came back...using your logic it means I've stolen your house, since I didn't pay for sleeping in it.[QUOTE="Trmpt"]
If you dont pay for it you stole it.
AdrianWerner
Or if I were to sneak into a concert without a ticket....it means I've stolen the concert.
Piracy isn't theft, it is a crime and it is moraly wrong, but it's a different type of crime.
When you pirate, you are taking something of value without paying for it, if you don't think that is theft, then you are delusional.
So...if I were to sneak into your home and sleep there while you were out on a trip and then leave before you came back...using your logic it means I've stolen your house, since I didn't pay for sleeping in it.[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]
[QUOTE="Trmpt"]
If you dont pay for it you stole it.
robflores370
Or if I were to sneak into a concert without a ticket....it means I've stolen the concert.
Piracy isn't theft, it is a crime and it is moraly wrong, but it's a different type of crime.
When you pirate, you are taking something of value without paying for it, if you don't think that is theft, then you are delusional.
How am I taking anything when pirating? Even if I pirate the original game is still sitting on the shelf, so no I didn't take anything. I just made use of something without paying. I'm not delusional, I just have good knowledge of law unlike you[QUOTE="robflores370"]
[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]So...if I were to sneak into your home and sleep there while you were out on a trip and then leave before you came back...using your logic it means I've stolen your house, since I didn't pay for sleeping in it.
Or if I were to sneak into a concert without a ticket....it means I've stolen the concert.
Piracy isn't theft, it is a crime and it is moraly wrong, but it's a different type of crime.
AdrianWerner
When you pirate, you are taking something of value without paying for it, if you don't think that is theft, then you are delusional.
How am I taking anything when pirating? Even if I pirate the original game is still sitting on the shelf, so no I didn't take anything. I just made use of something without paying. I'm not delusional, I just have good knowledge of law unlike you"I just made use of something without paying." Your words, enough said. Have a good day Mr. lawyer.
Nice to see you are capable of admiting you were wrong. It's something not many people are able to do anymore on forums"I just made use of something without paying." Your words, enough said. Have a good day Mr. lawyer.
robflores370
Nice to see you are capable of admiting you were wrong. It's something not many people are able to do anymore on forums[QUOTE="robflores370"]
"I just made use of something without paying." Your words, enough said. Have a good day Mr. lawyer.
AdrianWerner
Whatever helps you sleep at night, there's no point in arguing with someonewho's in denial such as yourself.
Nice to see you are capable of admiting you were wrong. It's something not many people are able to do anymore on forums[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]
[QUOTE="robflores370"]
"I just made use of something without paying." Your words, enough said. Have a good day Mr. lawyer.
robflores370
Whatever helps you sleep at night, there's no point in arguing with someonewho's in denial such as yourself.
what denial? Read any criminal law codex for Christ sake!God, how can people be as ignorant as you are?! It boggle my mind.
Take all your "you"s and replace them with "software companies." I'm talking about a gaming company in particular in my example, but this wasn't my stance, this was theirs. Tada. Again, you don't have much to debate against - this is history. This is what already happened. Disagree with the direction all you want, but it's what was being done.It was done by some random company in one single country, that's all that was done. You're trying to bring a single story and replace the history of a whole region with it. As nice anecdote you did well, as a way of describing the whole region, you had no argument By a group of the largest companies of their kind in the US, essentially all of them in the gaming example. Again, the difference between you and me is that I actually know what I'm talking about because I was there.[QUOTE="Makari"][QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]So you take annecdotal evidence from one country (and one extremely poor and unstable at that time, 2005 was when orange revolution was happening) and based on that you try to pass judgment on the whole large region? That's not very...erm...smart. You mentioned Cambodia, so I will use this as an example, what you wrote is like saying Asia doesn't have a normal software market because some companies pulled out of CambodiaAdrianWerner
If you look, it's easy to see example of a LACK of support/interest in said areas until the last few years, especially in terms of where the big guys chose to open new studios, etc. Lots of Canada, lots of Shanghai - zero Poland, zero Ukraine until recently. They left the growth of the region up to the people that were already in the region.
It's fine to ideologically disagree with something, but that won't make it not have happened. You can un-wish Starforce and limited-activation SecuROM all you want because they're incredibly stupid and useless for a whole variety of reasons, but guess what? It still happened despite being dumb on nearly every level.
you don't know what you're talking about because you weren't there. ie in Eastern Europe, I am and you're talking pure nonsense.] By a group of the largest companies of their kind in the US, essentially all of them in the gaming example. Again, the difference between you and me is that I actually know what I'm talking about because I was there.
Makari
You're talking about something you have zero idea off. You created some sort of fantasy version (or rather horror version) of eastern europe that had no normal software market untill recently
you don't know what you're talking about because you weren't there. ie in Eastern Europe, I am and you're talking pure nonsense.[QUOTE="Makari"]
] By a group of the largest companies of their kind in the US, essentially all of them in the gaming example. Again, the difference between you and me is that I actually know what I'm talking about because I was there.
AdrianWerner
You're talking about something you have zero idea off. You created some sort of fantasy version (or rather horror version) of eastern europe that had no normal software market untill recently
I'm talking about the way the software companies and publishers in the US treated what they saw as dangerous regions. Didn't you read my posts at all? I can do an epic quote chain of myself if you'd like, including the repeating that this wasn't my own opinion, it was theirs. But do you really need me to go through all that trouble for you to read what I'm saying?Besides all that, you're just wrong. Simply put, I worked there. You obviously didn't, or you wouldn't think they approached things from that direction.
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