Why is it that Nintendo's console is always the odd man out?

To those saying no new IPs i don't think You understand their way of thinking.
Maybe it's all about money, but if so their way of thinking to get the money is through fun. Not through standards, taboos or other things. It's very simplistic but genius. They look at what people want and try to give them something else that is similar so they will like it as well. Delivery by surprise. You want a microphone? Fine, but You won't get a headset like You were expecting. That kind of thing. Nintendo is extremely good at letting go of unnecesary things/thinking, sticking to the core philosophy, the smile. Even if it's all about money, that's just their way of getting it. So we'll keep seeing new IPs or old IPs in new ways. Surprise has always been a big part of their way of thinking. They don't stop making new IPs because they want money, they make new IPs and other weird things because that's how they do make money.

[QUOTE="SMR-Venom"][QUOTE="MortalDecay"] One could argue that Nintendo are sellouts, and only care about money, and not quality games. This is very evident on the Wii. There are only a couple of good games, out of the sea of garbage. They went for the safe bet this gen: kids, and grand mothers. Yes, there are some decent games on the Wii, but they're very rare. They are smart for doing what they're doing this gen, but I discredit them for putting out/allowing too much crap, just for the sake of money. Especially when Nintendo was all about quality in the past, which makes them hypocrites in my eyes.-Oath

And you dont wanna say that, majority of the games that can be found on the Wii are shovelware, but gamers in their right minds wouldnt buy them. Still, the fact remains, thats not to say the Wii still doesnt have some great games, like those you mntioned.

[QUOTE="Michael324"]Mature content like the rest of them?-Oath

Nintendos a leader, not a follower, they dont need mature games to have their console sell, and by god it shows.

[QUOTE="-Oath"]

[QUOTE="Michael324"]Mature content like the rest of them?Johnny-n-Roger

Nintendos a leader, not a follower, they dont need mature games to have their console sell, and by god it shows.

In your opinion ;)

The great is in Excitebots score...and it is a blast to play. Can't say much about the unreleased games obviously (Tact of Magic looks pretty great actually; There is minimal footage of Cosmic Walker and Dynamic Slash so I do not want to give false praise). Endless Ocean was also a pretty decent experience. The generation is not over yet.

SMR-Venom

[QUOTE="Johnny-n-Roger"][QUOTE="-Oath"]

Nintendos a leader, not a follower, they dont need mature games to have their console sell, and by god it shows.

-Oath

In your opinion ;)

Because they're the only company not interested in doing the same thing over and over again?

[QUOTE="-Oath"]

[QUOTE="Johnny-n-Roger"] yeah, all they need are quirky gimmicks.Johnny-n-Roger

In your opinion ;)

Good for them. Again, Nintendo doesnt.

[QUOTE="SMR-Venom"]The great is in Excitebots score...and it is a blast to play. Can't say much about the unreleased games obviously (Tact of Magic looks pretty great actually; There is minimal footage of Cosmic Walker and Dynamic Slash so I do not want to give false praise). Endless Ocean was also a pretty decent experience. The generation is not over yet.

foxhound_fox

[QUOTE="lebanese_boy"][QUOTE="-Oath"]

Well they got a veteran gamer since the Snes to prefer the Wii over the 360 and PS3, that says something ;)

-Oath

Congrats.

What Im saying is that eveyone is saying Nintendos doing it all wrong with the Wii, and I disagree, they must be doing SOMETHING right.

[QUOTE="Johnny-n-Roger"]

[QUOTE="-Oath"]

In your opinion ;)

Good for them. Again, Nintendo doesnt.

[QUOTE="-Oath"]

[QUOTE="Johnny-n-Roger"] Maybe, but I also missed the facts used as evidence thatMicrosoft and Sony use a Mature rating to sell games or even that a game will sell better because of a Mature rating.

Johnny-n-Roger

Good for them. Again, Nintendo doesnt.

Just did, Nintedndo isnt using th same sales strategy as M$ or Sony, nor do they need to. They focused on expanding their market to new and old gamers, not just the so called Harcore gamers. Look at where its got them, on top.

[QUOTE="-Oath"]

[QUOTE="lebanese_boy"] Well they gave me, a veteran since the NES days, an urge to own another console than the Wii :|.lebanese_boy

Congrats.

What Im saying is that eveyone is saying Nintendos doing it all wrong with the Wii, and I disagree, they must be doing SOMETHING right.

Then my friend you need to sustain patience or sell your Wii.

I did tout it in my second post. I meant to say Excite____ games, was too lazy to edit. Also, if I was to use Excitetruck, I would have had the 6.8/10 from GS thrown at me. Anyway, Tact of Magic looks cool, so does Cosmic Walker and Dynamic Slash. All have potential to be great.

SMR-Venom

[QUOTE="Johnny-n-Roger"][QUOTE="-Oath"]

Good for them. Again, Nintendo doesnt.

-Oath

Just did, Nintedndo isnt using th same sales strategy as M$ or Sony, nor do they need to. They focused on expanding their market to new and old gamers, not just the so called Harcore gamers. Look at where its got them, on top.

[QUOTE="-Oath"]

[QUOTE="Johnny-n-Roger"] Ok, now read my post and respond to it. :| haris12121212

Just did, Nintedndo isnt using th same sales strategy as M$ or Sony, nor do they need to. They focused on expanding their market to new and old gamers, not just the so called Harcore gamers. Look at where its got them, on top.

True, but how do you feel about that...

Perfectly fine, I didnt buy a Wii for mature games, thats what I have my 360 for, its Nintendo, I know better, I bought it for those few first party gems and 3rd party support. Thats what I got.

A hardcore gamer that only owns a wii (?)

Its possible, I couldve done it myself, but no, I didnt. I have friends who are.

You see -people here talk about all those huge games and you can't even come in debate because of the wii not having those games? Street Fighter 4, GTA 4, Fallout 3, Oblivion, Resident Evil 5 etc... Those huge games aren't on the wii and never will be...

Its a Wii owners choice to miss out on those games or not. They want those games? buy the system their on, dont blame anyone but yourself for missing out on them if you dont. They arent on the Wii and dont need to be.

Possibly because the Wii is like a straight guy in a gay bar i.e PS3 and 360

but sooner or later Nintendo will think about next-gen visuals and all, so the Wii will turn bisexual

Just did, Nintedndo isnt using th same sales strategy as M$ or Sony, nor do they need to. They focused on expanding their market to new and old gamers, not just the so called Harcore gamers. Look at where its got them, on top.

-Oath

Ok, I guess I'm going to have to spell it out for you. :roll:

Youstated that it was my opinion that Nintendo uses quirky gimmicks to sell their product. I said Maybe. The fact is that Nintendo continues to release games of age-old franchises (possible milking) with "innovative" motion controls (possibly considered quirky gimmicks).

I then proceeded to assert that there were no facts suggesting that either Microsoft or Sony uses an M rating to sell games, or that games sell better because of the M rating alone. There are no facts to support that. That is not even and opinion. It's a biased assumption.

To counter-argue your assumption, Nintendo's non-violent releases are clearly geared towards a more family-oriented audience. They're targeting a larger demographic of consumers than the restricted Mature crowd which would give them more selling power than the developer of a Mature rated game. There is no restriction on who can buy an E rated game. Wouldn't the E rating be more of a selling point than an M rating?

So unlike Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony satisfy all demands of the Hardcore gamer by offering the immersive realism that warrants the M rating. They don't have to broaden their market appeal to non-gamers and children to sell games and hardware.

[QUOTE="SMR-Venom"] I did tout it in my second post. I meant to say Excite____ games, was too lazy to edit. Also, if I was to use Excitetruck, I would have had the 6.8/10 from GS thrown at me. Anyway, Tact of Magic looks cool, so does Cosmic Walker and Dynamic Slash. All have potential to be great.

foxhound_fox

[QUOTE="-Oath"]

[QUOTE="Michael324"]Mature content like the rest of them?thegoldenpoo

Nintendos a leader, not a follower, they dont need mature games to have their console sell, and by god it shows.

I'm not sure who you mean by "us", but if you are referring to human beings in the 16-35 age range who have been playing games for quite a long time, Nintendo is still a company for them, myself being part of that group. Some gamers have just grown out of Nintendo, it happens. Individuals change, companies change.

[QUOTE="SMR-Venom"] I did tout it in my second post. I meant to say Excite____ games, was too lazy to edit. Also, if I was to use Excitetruck, I would have had the 6.8/10 from GS thrown at me. Anyway, Tact of Magic looks cool, so does Cosmic Walker and Dynamic Slash. All have potential to be great.

foxhound_fox

really now...because hardly anyone talks about excite truck...ever.Shinobishyguy

And why is that? Its a fantastic racing game that is not only very high quality, from Nintendo but is challenging. It wasn't dumbed down for the casual mainstream. I still have yet to unlock Mirror Mode. There are some races in Super Excite that I still cannot S-rank.

If there is any game Wii-fans need to talk about, its Excite Truck.

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]really now...because hardly anyone talks about excite truck...ever.foxhound_fox

Meanwhile SMG and SSBB (games you hate I know) are talked about on a daily basis.

hmm...it seems that you might be one of the very few people that think that. :|

Meanwhile SMG and SSBB (games you hate I know) are talked about on a daily basis.Shinobishyguy

[QUOTE="-Oath"]

Just did, Nintedndo isnt using th same sales strategy as M$ or Sony, nor do they need to. They focused on expanding their market to new and old gamers, not just the so called Harcore gamers. Look at where its got them, on top.

Johnny-n-Roger

To counter-argue your assumption, Nintendo's non-violent releases are clearly geared towards a more family-oriented audience. They're targeting a larger demographic of consumers than the restricted Mature crowd which would give them more selling power than the developer of a Mature rated game. There is no restriction on who can buy an E rated game. Wouldn't the E rating be more of a selling point than an M rating?

Your pointing something we both knew, its a descision Nintendo made, to gear towards older and younger audiences, and it works, the innovation of the motion controls was even a nice touch, this is why they're on top, all ages are interested. They dont focus on one audience which the PS3 and 360 APPEAR to be doing, teens to adults (not including seniors), which are the focused audience of both those sytems.

Are we on the same page?

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]hmm...it seems that you might be one of the very few people that think that. :|

Meanwhile SMG and SSBB (games you hate I know) are talked about on a daily basis.foxhound_fox

Again Excite truck wasn't all that good. It was a decent launch title...nothing more. Thats why you don't see many people aside from you taling about it.

It's nowhere near the same quality as SMG or SSBB.

*inb4 opinions, quality is subjective etc*

[QUOTE="Johnny-n-Roger"]

[QUOTE="-Oath"]

Just did, Nintedndo isnt using th same sales strategy as M$ or Sony, nor do they need to. They focused on expanding their market to new and old gamers, not just the so called Harcore gamers. Look at where its got them, on top.

To counter-argue your assumption, Nintendo's non-violent releases are clearly geared towards a more family-oriented audience. They're targeting a larger demographic of consumers than the restricted Mature crowd which would give them more selling power than the developer of a Mature rated game. There is no restriction on who can buy an E rated game. Wouldn't the E rating be more of a selling point than an M rating?

Your pointing something we both knew, its a descision Nintendo made, to gear towards older and younger audiences, and it works, the innovation of the motion controls was even a nice touch, this is why they're on top, all ages are interested. They dont focus on one audience which the PS3 and 360 APPEAR to be doing, teens to adults (not including seniors), which are the focused audience of both those sytems.

Are we on the same page?

While I don't exactly share all of foxhound's sentiments on Excite Truck,I will say that,out of all the racing games I've played on the Wii,Excite Truck is the only racing game I've played on the Wii to get motion controls to work well.The Wii remote feels imprecise with other racing games,and yet this works to Excite Truck's advantage,adding to the reckless,"about to lose control!" feeling of the game.

[QUOTE="-Oath"]

[QUOTE="Johnny-n-Roger"]

To counter-argue your assumption, Nintendo's non-violent releases are clearly geared towards a more family-oriented audience. They're targeting a larger demographic of consumers than the restricted Mature crowd which would give them more selling power than the developer of a Mature rated game. There is no restriction on who can buy an E rated game. Wouldn't the E rating be more of a selling point than an M rating?

Johnny-n-Roger

Your pointing something we both knew, its a descision Nintendo made, to gear towards older and younger audiences, and it works, the innovation of the motion controls was even a nice touch, this is why they're on top, all ages are interested. They dont focus on one audience which the PS3 and 360 APPEAR to be doing, teens to adults (not including seniors), which are the focused audience of both those sytems.

Are we on the same page?

Thats not what I was trying to say, M$, SONY, and Nintendo are just on different paths, obviously Nintendos seems to be working out better than M$ and SONYs, which is more of last gens strategy.

Because they're the only company not interested in doing the same thing over and over again?

789shadow

[QUOTE="Johnny-n-Roger"][QUOTE="-Oath"]

Your pointing something we both knew, its a descision Nintendo made, to gear towards older and younger audiences, and it works, the innovation of the motion controls was even a nice touch, this is why they're on top, all ages are interested. They dont focus on one audience which the PS3 and 360 APPEAR to be doing, teens to adults (not including seniors), which are the focused audience of both those sytems.

Are we on the same page?

-Oath

Thats not what I was trying to say, M$, SONY, and Nintendo are just on different paths, obviously Nintendos seems to be working out better than M$ and SONYs, which is more of last gens strategy.

I don't know if there is so much a "current gen" or "last gen" marketingstrategy.

Had Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft All taken steps to reduce their hardware quality to lower the price of their console and market a majority of games to non-gamers and children, there would be no product to satisfy the niche of Hardcore and psuedo-hardcore gamers. Nintendo simply chose to control a niche, albeit larger than Microsoft's and Sony's, it is a mere market niche, not a projection into the future of the gaming market.

Although Nintendo's motion controls are somewhat innovative, I doubt they'll become a next gen standard. That would be like saying in 2000, when dual-stick move and look controls were being introduced to console FPS, that the KB + M was going to become obsolete.

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

Because they're the only company not interested in doing the same thing over and over again?

thegoldenpoo

But this isn't about games, is it? This thread is about the consoles, more specifically the hardware. Even then, Nintendo's big first-part series games always have something that distinguishes them from the other games in the series, unlike the first party titles of the other companies.

[QUOTE="Johnny-n-Roger"][QUOTE="-Oath"]

Your pointing something we both knew, its a descision Nintendo made, to gear towards older and younger audiences, and it works, the innovation of the motion controls was even a nice touch, this is why they're on top, all ages are interested. They dont focus on one audience which the PS3 and 360 APPEAR to be doing, teens to adults (not including seniors), which are the focused audience of both those sytems.

Are we on the same page?

-Oath

Thats not what I was trying to say, M$, SONY, and Nintendo are just on different paths, obviously Nintendos seems to be working out better than M$ and SONYs, which is more of last gens strategy.

[QUOTE="thegoldenpoo"][QUOTE="789shadow"] [QUOTE="789shadow"]

[QUOTE="thegoldenpoo"][QUOTE="789shadow"]

Because they're the only company not interested in doing the same thing over and over again?

789shadow

But this isn't about games, is it? This thread is about the consoles, more specifically the hardware. Even then, Nintendo's big first-part series games always have something that distinguishes them from the other games in the series, unlike the first party titles of the other companies.

Sure they do move on a little but go play Mario Kart Wii and then play the GC version and little has changed, imagine if sony only commissioned Spyro games over and over for 10 years, we would not have the awesome series that is Ratchet and Clank (one of the best of last gen) Or Resistance 2 (one of the most fun and lag free console shooters), You say they don't do the same thing over and over but thet FACT is they do. Mario after mario after mario, change the freaking record guys?! it's not 1996 any more, they could do with some new ideas.

Imagine is Valve had just decided to make HL games instead of braching out in games like TF2, L4D and portal (Valve have made more new IPs for gamers than nintendo have this gen!)

[QUOTE="-Oath"]

[QUOTE="Johnny-n-Roger"] I thought you were asserting that Sony and Microsoft were "selling out", appealing to the lowest common denominator by releasing mature rated games.thegoldenpoo

Thats not what I was trying to say, M$, SONY, and Nintendo are just on different paths, obviously Nintendos seems to be working out better than M$ and SONYs, which is more of last gens strategy.

Relax dude, I use "M$" because it seems like the common acronym for Microsoft, apparently there was a meaning behind it, I thought it was just to distinguish, if it makes you feel better Ill use "MS" for now on. I said it appears they're using a last gen strategy, not recycling their same strategy from last year which is what you seem to be insinuating.

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

[QUOTE="thegoldenpoo"] :lol: Hmmm. let me see... have nintendo created a non Wii____ IP this generation NOPE! Have they just re-made the same games over and over since the SNES days? YES. Does there system move that far foward in tech terms from the GS? NOPE. Give it up, the "Nintendo is teh innovation!!!!" argument is just sad when they bascially make the same 4 games every generation over and over again. You get a mario game, a zelda game, a brawl game and metroid game. Only one of those you didn't get on the NES, so "the only company not interested in doing the same thing over and over again"... does the same thing over and over again. :Pthegoldenpoo

But this isn't about games, is it? This thread is about the consoles, more specifically the hardware. Even then, Nintendo's big first-part series games always have something that distinguishes them from the other games in the series, unlike the first party titles of the other companies.

Sure they do move on a little but go play Mario Kart Wii and then play the GC version and little has changed, imagine if sony only commissioned Spyro games over and over for 10 years, we would not have the awesome series that is Ratchet and Clank (one of the best of last gen) Or Resistance 2 (one of the most fun and lag free console shooters), You say they don't do the same thing over and over but thet FACT is they do. Mario after mario after mario, change the freaking record guys?! it's not 1996 any more, they could do with some new ideas.

Imagine is Valve had just decided to make HL games instead of braching out in games like TF2, L4D and portal (Valve have made more new IPs for gamers than nintendo have this gen!)

Whoops, my bad, I thought this was a hardware thread.:P *facepalm*But I stand by my argument.

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

[QUOTE="thegoldenpoo"] :lol: Hmmm. let me see... have nintendo created a non Wii____ IP this generation NOPE! Have they just re-made the same games over and over since the SNES days? YES. Does there system move that far foward in tech terms from the GS? NOPE. Give it up, the "Nintendo is teh innovation!!!!" argument is just sad when they bascially make the same 4 games every generation over and over again. You get a mario game, a zelda game, a brawl game and metroid game. Only one of those you didn't get on the NES, so "the only company not interested in doing the same thing over and over again"... does the same thing over and over again. :Pthegoldenpoo

But this isn't about games, is it? This thread is about the consoles, more specifically the hardware. Even then, Nintendo's big first-part series games always have something that distinguishes them from the other games in the series, unlike the first party titles of the other companies.

Sure they do move on a little but go play Mario Kart Wii and then play the GC version and little has changed, imagine if sony only commissioned Spyro games over and over for 10 years, we would not have the awesome series that is Ratchet and Clank (one of the best of last gen) Or Resistance 2 (one of the most fun and lag free console shooters), You say they don't do the same thing over and over but thet FACT is they do. Mario after mario after mario, change the freaking record guys?! it's not 1996 any more, they could do with some new ideas.

Imagine is Valve had just decided to make HL games instead of braching out in games like TF2, L4D and portal (Valve have made more new IPs for gamers than nintendo have this gen!)

[QUOTE="thegoldenpoo"]

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

But this isn't about games, is it? This thread is about the consoles, more specifically the hardware. Even then, Nintendo's big first-part series games always have something that distinguishes them from the other games in the series, unlike the first party titles of the other companies.

789shadow

Sure they do move on a little but go play Mario Kart Wii and then play the GC version and little has changed, imagine if sony only commissioned Spyro games over and over for 10 years, we would not have the awesome series that is Ratchet and Clank (one of the best of last gen) Or Resistance 2 (one of the most fun and lag free console shooters), You say they don't do the same thing over and over but thet FACT is they do. Mario after mario after mario, change the freaking record guys?! it's not 1996 any more, they could do with some new ideas.

Imagine is Valve had just decided to make HL games instead of braching out in games like TF2, L4D and portal (Valve have made more new IPs for gamers than nintendo have this gen!)

Whoops, my bad, I thought this was a hardware thread.:P *facepalm*But I stand by my argument.

When you make the same IPs over and over there is bound to be more repetition than making new IPs simply for the continutiy, take Zelda TP for example. Great game, but it tried to hard to be OOT and played by the N64 rules and standards.

Things have moved on and nintendo struggles to adapt, they und up making the same experices over again with a few praise worthy exceptions, i am not saying they are not good games i am merely showing your original statement to be the other way round, they do more the same than any other company ever has and have done so since the beginning of 3D. Not all games re re-hashes but you do get an epic sense of de-ja-vu this gen

Hell most of the Zelda games have had the same exact story. Princess in trouble, big quest, find master sword, go rescue princess, ???????, Profit. thegoldenpoo

The Halo games have all play on the same basic story, just extending it each time. Each franchise fits into it's own universe. Some are more story drive than other, and are more complex.

[QUOTE="thegoldenpoo"][QUOTE="-Oath"]

Thats not what I was trying to say, M$, SONY, and Nintendo are just on different paths, obviously Nintendos seems to be working out better than M$ and SONYs, which is more of last gens strategy.

-Oath

Relax dude, I use "M$" because it seems like the common acronym for Microsoft, apparently there was a meaning behind it, I thought it was just to distinguish, if it makes you feel better Ill use "MS" for now on. I said it appears they're using a last gen strategy, not recycling their same strategy from last year which is what you seem to be insinuating.

How is it a "last gen" strategy? So the future of the industry is a Nintendo-esque strategy? Hardware developers should just concentrate on creating some innovative controls while leaving the hardware at outdated standards and creating games geared towards the broadest demographic possible? Is the gaming industry going to be reduced to casual / non-gamers?

Hell most of the Zelda games have had the same exact story. Princess in trouble, big quest, find master sword, go rescue princess, ???????, Profit. thegoldenpoo

[QUOTE="-Oath"]

[QUOTE="thegoldenpoo"] BTW, using M$ just makes you lose all illusion of not hating on them, second "Last gen"? you are accusing the other companies of being "Last gen"? :lol: The hypocrisy, the irony, the wrongness. Maybe Nintendo is the one doing "more of last gen" since it seems incapable of making on-line games, the ONLY non lag fest is MK;Wii ANYONE who has been near a Wii and is not a total fanboy like you will tell you this. Why do people like you act like nintendo has done something to benefit you? All they did was dumb down, throw out the long standing audience, just not bother about on-line and make more causal games. Hardly a Next gen, and if this is the way console gaming is going to go you can count me out. Johnny-n-Roger

Relax dude, I use "M$" because it seems like the common acronym for Microsoft, apparently there was a meaning behind it, I thought it was just to distinguish, if it makes you feel better Ill use "MS" for now on. I said it appears they're using a last gen strategy, not recycling their same strategy from last year which is what you seem to be insinuating.

How is it a "last gen" strategy? So the future of the industry is a Nintendo-esque strategy?

Maybe I worded it wrong. They're not trying anything particularly new or rather being safe than sorry opposed to Nintendos expand the audience approach.

[QUOTE="thegoldenpoo"]Hell most of the Zelda games have had the same exact story. Princess in trouble, big quest, find master sword, go rescue princess, ???????, Profit. Shinobishyguy

[QUOTE="Johnny-n-Roger"]

[QUOTE="-Oath"]

Relax dude, I use "M$" because it seems like the common acronym for Microsoft, apparently there was a meaning behind it, I thought it was just to distinguish, if it makes you feel better Ill use "MS" for now on. I said it appears they're using a last gen strategy, not recycling their same strategy from last year which is what you seem to be insinuating.

-Oath

How is it a "last gen" strategy? So the future of the industry is a Nintendo-esque strategy?

Maybe I worded it wrong. They're not trying anything particularly new or rather being safe than sorry opposed to Nintendos expand the audience approach.

Are the non-gamers going to invest in another wii console when their original has been collecting dust for some time?

Are the children going to grow up, start playing their older brother's / cousin's/ whoever's XBoX 360 and / or PS3 and desire the more competative atmosphere offered by Sony and Microsoft for the next generation?

Nintendo's acquired the niche, but they'll have to innovate next gen to an equal or greater extent to maintain their userbase.

Hell most of the Zelda games have had the same exact story. Princess in trouble, big quest, find master sword, go rescue princess, ???????, Profit. thegoldenpoo

How is it a "last gen" strategy? So the future of the industry is a Nintendo-esque strategy? Hardware developers should just concentrate on creating some innovative controls while leaving the hardware at outdated standards and creating games geared towards the broadest demographic possible? Is the gaming industry going to be reduced to casual / non-gamers?

Johnny-n-Roger

Hardcore gamers have always been a small minority and always will be, so all companies will cater to them the least.