Why Sony's initiative to continue Generations is good for PC and why FC is STUPID for future hardare.

@Pedro:

hmm so no link anything huh?

Again, talk about being a fanboy, stupid and all the other lables you fling at me while making grand standing claims and it's YOU who can't back up any of the things you say with credible references to for your argument.

And that goes for every other half-wit who had multiple reply arguments with me in this thread and had nothing to show for themselves when I presented them with company executives, technical analysts and video game developers comments and confirmation that backed up the arguments I've presented.

I see a bunch of loud mouth children patting each other on the back because they all agree that Santa Claus is a real person, but can't for the life of them prove he exists. Well done kids.

@cainetao11: F'in glorious. I still think Michael Scott and Brick Tamland were some of his best showings.

I'm English (born and bred) and i'll take the U.S. Office over the English version.

@lundy86_4: Dude this topic is such a non issue imo. Nobody knows how the future will play out. Does this dolt really think he's onto something that nobody at MSFT have thought of? Ive seen Ybarra and Spencer get asked the question about FC. They aren't divulging any answers but they aren't in the dark on this. TC is an Ego maniac

@cainetao11: Very true. People also seem to forget that large corporations answer to investors and a board. Yes, divisions largely oversee themselves, but the Xbox division won't decide against the unification under W10 as that's a MS-wide push, nor should it ever, because it unifies environments. IMO, MS is taking my favourite direction as I can buy all their games on PC... I game on PC, thus it benefits me. Those who do not, buy an Xbox and it benefits them.

@lundy86_4: Agreed. I don't game on PC much anymore. So I'll get the box.

I did that in the 360 gen and don't blame you. My last two PC's got me back into going solely PC again, apart from consoles for certain exclusives. When I couldn't be bothered to build or upgrade, I loved my 360 as my main console.

I don't need links proving that Xbox One X and PS4 Pro are supported by modern games because I own both and I can see the difference. This is ignoring the fact that is a well known feature of both systems. I don't need links to know that the next system is not going to be 6-8 times faster than the One X or Pro because the numbers are absurd. Xbox 2 36 TFLOPS and PS5 34.4 TFLOPS. Your assertion is not grounded in reality and you have chosen bathe in your own foolery. We are simply trying to liberate you from your foolishness. That is all. :)

"Your next PlayStation will be full of online only features and will heavily encourage you to start using services like PSN, it is the future of PlayStation and Xbox"

Please pay special attention to this sentence because you are posting big paragraphs that have nothing to do with anything I said. Yes there will be another generation of consoles, you're over estimating the power of them though (as happens with every console generation). The "leap" will be similar to the mid gen refresh you just had, which will bring console up the equivalent of high spec PC's today and putting them around 2 years behind the high end, as usual. (ignoring the crap CPU of course, I do hope they give that a huge improvement)

Of course with you being the all knowing tech guru, you obviously are, you already know that Navi is most likely being designed as a mid tier GPU and not high end? That's because they are designing it with consoles in mind and not to compete against Nvidia, a battle they just can't win with the resources they've poured in to fighting the CPU market against Intel.

Anyway my point was that streaming is coming to you in the next 5 to 10 years and not the next set of consoles. Don't worry though because even PC gaming will eventually go all streaming, it's just going to take a lot longer for dinosaurs like me to give up our high end gaming rigs and the enjoyment we get from designing, building and maintaining them.

Streaming is the future of all gaming.

MS's statement is based on PC's experience and game consoles has X86 PC CPUs in them.

A CELL SPE has a hard limit with 256 KB local memory i.e. it generates protection fault error for overflow condition while on PC X86 CPU's L2 cache overflow results in slower performance. Aging X86 CPU degrades in a friendly manner.

Current game console's Jaguar CPU's SIMDs are only 128bit hardware wide while software side has support for 256 bit AVX v1 i.e. AMD builds FC for Jaguars when future game console CPUs has real 256 bit SIMD hardware.

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Alternative point of view

If a future game was hard-coded for 256bit FMA AVX v2 or 512 bit AVX v3, the game will cause a protection fault error on X86 CPUs without necessary software compatibility handling.

Another problem, if a game's optimized array size is coded for AVX v3's 32 registers set, the game will cause a protection fault error on X86 CPUs without necessary software compatibility handling. Both AVX v1 and v2 has 16 registers set.

The main difference between AVX v1 and AVX v2 vs is FMA, gather instructions and some integer operations support.

AVX v3's 512 bit and 32 register set is a major upgrade.

Flawed argument with your youtube video.

R9-290X 44 CU/64 ROPS was almost 2X scaled up from PS4 Liverpool GPU's 20 CU/32 ROPS and both GCNs has 8 ACE units and L2 cache modifications.

Everybody is forgetting R9-290X has four Cape Verde GCNs glued on a single silicon.

Each R9-290X's four lanes has 7770's 10 CU** + 1 geometry rasterization + 16 ROPS set.

**AMD added extra 1 CU for 11 CU per lane.

R9-290X was designed before Mr "TFLOPS" Raja Koduri joined AMD in 2013. Raja killed AMD's geometry rasterization and ROPS scaling.

@GarGx1: Hate to break it to you but streaming for gaming isn't happening for a long time. And even when it does it won't be the only option.

@scatteh316 u have scat in ur name is that why u talk so much shit?

u dont even own an xbox and yet ur talking so much crap about it.

@GarGx1: no way that people will give up 144hz ,low input delay, modding etc up. specially not in 5 to 10 years lofl.

Why people think there wont be much of a difference between PS5 and PR4 PRO ?

@AzatiS: Because they're idiots.

I wish consoles would move back to custom hardware...... I miss those days.....hardware was interesting back then......and powerful!

^^ Dumb person

I think there will be a massive difference on CPU, way better , a decent difference on RAM with 16GB and GPU will be at least x3 or more powerful than PS4 PRO with support on new DX and more advancements for better performances ( sometimes TFLOPS is not everything )

I dont think PS5 will be just a better PS4 PRO but considerably better with next-gen tech inside it.

Very interesting topic.

Let me share my views on it.

First, streaming still sucks big time!

When PSnow launched I subscribed for a free 7 day trial.

I had never played the last of us and it seemed 7 days would be enough to do a playtrough on the game.

I had a beefy pc with 200mb wired network.

The experience was so bad I didn't get past the first chapter.

After that I picked up a used ps3 with the game and it was so much better! I played the whole game and it actually looked and felt like a different game!

Next, current consoles and generations are holding back gaming.

Games and more importantly game engines are developed with the lowest common denominator in mind, and that is the 1.8tf consoles.

Take far cry 5 for example.

It runs on an engine that is developed for the consoles. O a beefy pc it can scale in the quality of the assets (mostly textures) and the quality of post processing effects and pipeline as well as resolution and framerate.

But the core gaming experience, physics and ai are the same on all systems and the game is not what it could be in 2018 because it is created on an engine that has to run on a 2013 hardware console.

Get it?

How many times stronger was the wii from the gamecube.?

How many times stronger is the switch from the PS3 or 360.?

Consoles aren't just about raw flops,newer GPU also bring newer features as well which make that power more efficient.

Hell the xbox one is not even a huge jump over the 360 GPU wise after 8 years only 5 times or less more powerful?

But also has way more memory and other feature the 360 GPU just lacked.

I will when you stop been a blind MS ass kisser.

And?

Look at it this way the PS3 and 360 both sold models for $100 more just with bigger storage and no one call it mid gen,this time the improvement was placed elsewhere.

That doesn't mean generations are over.

Even a 2X from the pro still is an upgrade,3X even more.

Generations cannot be over.

Other wise ps4 and ps5 would only have the same games.

Games on medium/low settings with low res textures and assets on the ps4 and high/ultra settings with high res assets and more particle effects and such.

But at the end of the day, the same game...

No way Sony would do that.

Since when did consoles have 144hz display, low input delay, modding etc. have I missed something? I'm pretty sure I said streaming will come to PC but will take a lot longer than consoles. This is because PC (my preferred platform and has been since I got a ZX81) is an open platform and no one has it on lock. Even then there are already a few game streaming options on PC. On the other hand console manufacturers will do what is best for them and their profit margins, not their consumers, you guys will just have to deal with it. Streaming will be far more profitable than 'fighting' a console war.

Mark my words, it's coming whether you are ready for it or not. Sony and MS already have their infrastructure in position, they've already started using it and are pushing it out and when the mass market converts (it's really convenient, a simple cheap monthly subscription like Netflix, you don't need to buy additional hardware as it'll work on pretty much anything you can connect to the internet like your TV, it's everything the largest proportion of the console customer base are looking for).

Sorry to be the barer of bad news but you "hardcore" guys will have no choice but to follow along if you want those console exclusives.

How much are you willing to play for this next generation tech. Consoles need to be affordable and you're not going to get considerably better performance for £300. A Ps Pro is still £400 over here and that the premium model that supposed to be more expensive.

'Next Gen' will just be beefier specs.

Unless Sony has Cell2 in the works and has managed to discover some new graphics technology or they are prepared to take a loss on the hardware sold.

I dont think there was ever a new Playstation console in the market, ever, costed 300 on release

Question guys, what are your thoughts on pc costs vs. ps4/xbox costs when gaming?

I have a project at school about the range of turnover among pc gamers who sometimes need to upgrade their hardware in order to keep up with the increased requirement demands when playing newer games. I know graphics and gameplay can be better on pc compared to ps4/xbox. But has there been an issue and is that a main factor in why many more people choose ps4/xbox because they don't have to upgrade their specs?

I'm more of a ps4 gamer mainly due to not wanting to spend a lot on gaming pcs. And the games I've played on pc, I see a lot of lag. However, I do find the mod communities in pc games to be amazing, but is it worth it for the price of upgrading?

Last, how often do you pc gamers need to upgrade hardware/software to stay up-to-date with new games?

https://socialzuu.com/2018/06/19/games/

The first part of your question is a misnomer, there is no need to upgrade a PC in between console generations to "keep up" with them. For example a GTX 750Ti will always be as powerful as a PS4 and a GTX 1060 will always be as powerful as an Xbox One X, we'll leave the CPU's out of this just now because they aren't as important to console games. There was some optimisation in previous generations where say the Xbox 360 had games that looked better at the end of the generation than they did at the start but the 8800GT could always run the same mutli-platform games just as well and often with better graphics settings.

A PC can be built to suit your needs, yes it's very likely that a PC of similar specs to a console will cost you more but the counter balances to that are numerous. A couple of examples would be games are generally much much cheaper (I recently bought Vampyr for £24.99, it's £40.99 for PS4 at Amazon). If you play games online you need a service subscription for all consoles now, which also increases costs over several years. Of course there are many more examples of the PC's versatility that no console can even dream of matching, game mods are just one small piece of that picture.

Again there is very little need to upgrade any more often than a new console comes out, even less now with mid-gen refreshes. Assassin's Creed Origins will run on a GTX 660 (2012) and an i5 2500k (2011), sure it's not going to be running at 4k and Ultra settings but on the other hand it won't run at all on a PS3 or Xbox 360.

On a more personal level I upgrade fairly regularly, every couple of years or so, because I'm a PC enthusiast but I also spend a fair bit of money on other parts like water cooling and other peripherals (my flight stick cost almost as much as a console).

PC gaming can be as expensive or as cheap as you want it to be and taken over the lifespan of a console generation can actually be cheaper, depending on how many games you buy.

The point of pc gaming costs is up to you.

Because like I said, most pc games are multiplats that are developed on game engines to run on consoles, all current games will run on a 100 dollar 1050.

If you want more graphical baling, you can spend 700 on a 1080ti for example, but at the end of the day you will be playing the same game.

That's why we need a new console generation. To push game engine development forward!

Intel's 512 bit AVX v3 SIMD is for FLOPS race in addition to renewed AMD vs Intel's multi-core with strong IPC race.

Intel has engineering resource critical mass from AMD and 3DLabs to develop a discrete GPU for the PC market.

"GTX 750Ti will always be as powerful as a PS4" = false e.g. Doom. My old 7970 GE runs better GTX 750 Ti.

"GTX 1060 will always be as powerful as an Xbox One X" = false e.g. Far Cry 5

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At the CPU front

AMD didn't upgrade it's Jaguar (2 X86 instruction issues per cycle ) CPU cores like Intel's "Apollo" Atom CPU cores with 3 X86 instruction issues per cycle vs Braswell Atom's 2 X86 instruction issues per cycle.

Intel has the leadership with small and cheap X86 CPU cores.

I know you trying to make a point but I am not seeing it.

FYI, most of CELL's R&D was done by IBM. This is why there's no CELL v2 for PS4.

SPU instruction set was derivative from PowerPC's VMX instruction set.

@ronvalencia: Thanks for nothing.

I'm absolutely onboard with the FC stuff, I'm perplexed as to why so many people are even talking about next gen.... holy shit I've got so many games to play right now, it's not even remotely close to what it was at the end of last gen for me. I hope they maximize this gen to the fullest and release a X2/Pro 2 rather than start the next gen, the graphics right now are amazing to me & the only thing that could improve is 60fps on all games but I seriously doubt you need a new "gen" for that.

If they do start "next gen" in 2020 or soon after, I really hope it will be fully backwards compatible with this gen. They can take their time as far as I'm concerned, this gen is still smoking hot for me.

@ronvalencia: Individual games do not make either of those false. I could, if I could be bothered to, list you numerous games that do run better than the console counter parts for both of the cards I listed.

FC is not going to happen, sooner or later the developers will give up on the older platforms and the PC crowd will moan if they still target the weaker platforms.

Can you people imagine being in 2030 playing a game targeted at a 2013 platform? It makes no sense.

FC is PR talk and will not happen.